Talk:Bosnian Church

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[edit] Bogomil connection

We could use a bit of an elaboration here regarding the connection with Bogomils. Franjo Rački wrote about this in the 19th century... --Joy [shallot] 10:49, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

well who cares about Franjo R, what makes his story the correct one, he is not oficially accepted in terms of history.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.209.173.153 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 1 October 2005.

Please, do tell us the sources for your correct and officially accepted in terms of history version. --Joy [shallot] 15:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bosniaks

The text is very incorrect, it doesn't mention Bosniaks and their Bogumil heritage, the Bosnian church was a church made out only by Bosniaks and the curch was Bogumil...The bosnian church does not have anything to do with serbs or croats.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.209.174.196 (talk • contribs) 16:09, 26 September 2005.

Um, where do you get that information? I certainly couldn't corroborate anything like that based on google. --Joy [shallot] 16:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bogomil

Can anyone give some sources to this linking between the Bosnian Church and Bosniaks? HolyRomanEmperor 13:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll gladly give you a linking; the bosnian church disappeared during the ottoman era. Why? the answer is simple: people converted to Islam (bosniaks), and therefore the destiny of the bosnian "church" was dissapearanc. Usual signs of the bosnian "church" are the so called "stecci" tombstones, which are of bogomil charcteristics. Damir Mišić 13:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I heard about "reasons for reverting", and you'll see that links bogomils were erased several times in the history. There are certain links, but as no one has cited any sources the info was erased. Quote from bogomils:
The Bogomils spread westwards, and settled first in Serbia; but at the end of the 12th century Stephen Nemanya, king of Serbia, persecuted them and expelled them from the country. Large numbers took refuge in Bosnia, where they were known under the name of Patarenes or Patareni. There they were also brought into connection with the indigenous Bosnian Church, which was also considered heretical by the Pope and the Byzantium, but was not actually Bogomil in nature.
The links with Bosniaks are at least partially a myth, and you clearly demonstrated the tendence to do the original research on wikipedia, contrary to WP:NOR. I'll be glad to support bogomil and bosniak links myself if you offer any proof, in the sense of valid historical paper on the subject rather than your explanations. Duja 09:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bogomil resolved "controversy"

Quite a few users try to present Bosnian Christians as a dualist-manichaean sect connected with Macedonian-Bulgarian Bogomils. This view has been discarded: those who can read English and B/C/S can see for themselves:

Unfortunately, those few users have previously demonstrated thet they don't even accept existence of the facts that do not favor their point of view... Duja 12:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Your sources are ridiculous, sorry but they are nothing but nationalistic fantasies coming true on poorly created private homepages on the net. And these facts on bogomil heritage are accepted mainstream facts, ever read John Fine, Noel Malcolm and other prominent historians in the field which claim the bogomil heritage? And you've even written that they don't go for the bogomil version? unbelievable Damir Mišić

User Mišić, evidently, has not read about the topic he wants to discuss (or does not bother to hear other, I'd say more informed, people's views). Otherwise, he wouldn't have made such serious misinterpretations. Historians John Fine (it's his text on external links portion at the article page) and Noel Malcolm contend that: 1) Bosnian Christians had had nothing to do either with Bulgarian-Macedonian Bogomils , or with Patarens from Northern Italy and Southern France 2) they had disappeared a decade or two before the Ottoman invasion, so that Turkish defters know about only 100 or so krstjani (as different from Catholic and Orthodox qafir) 3) this interpretation, which has become widely accepted over years, has been much elaborated by Fine, based on works of Leo Petrović, Maja Miletić, Dragoljub Dragojlović and Jaroslav Šidak 4) sources I've given as links, especially from the Sarajevo Institut za istoriju are from the most prominent authorities in the field of research (Dubravko Lovrenović, Pejo Ćošković, Mladen Ančić,..) 5) I don't understand the rhetoric about "nationalists" (probably "nationalist (Croat and Serb) historians"). I guess that, according to this view, anyone who denies supposedly gnostic and extremely heretic nature of the medieval Bosnian Church, is, somehow, politically motivated to deny Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) "ethnic continuity" with pre-Ottoman Bosnian Christians. This is, I've heard, a standard myth in Bosniak ideological circels. Just, this view neglects unpleasant facts: proponents of the ideology of "Bogomil heresy" are either moderate historians who did not misuse their scientific integrity (Franjo Rački, Sima Ćirković), or indeed are nationalist, but Croatian (Miroslav Brandt, Dominik Mandić, Franjo Šanjek, Ivo Pilar..), for whom "Bosnian Church" is nothing but regional Croatian Church. There is no authority among researchers in the field of medieval Bosnian studies, either pro-Bogomil, or pro-"orthodox (not eastern Orthodox)-and-isolated" paradigmata, who would make any link between this historical phenomenon and contemporary Bosnian Muslim ethnicity.Bardon Dornal 13:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
geocities? you serious? visit noel malcolms institute: http://www.bosnia.org.uk/about/default.cfm Haven't seen you provide a single source on your claims about Fine's and Malcolm's theories. Damir Mišić

[edit] Number of followers

How many followers did the Bosnian Church have? The numbers can be a great answer to things.

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