Talk:Born again

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"(Note that some translators consider "born from above" to be a better translation than "born again".)"

Bad wording. How many translators exactly?

[edit] (older)

We should probably mention Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. -- Ed Poor

I agree. I don't have time to go in to it, but this topic should be connected with Baptism, pedobaptism, believers baptism. The phrase as used by evangelicals often refers to believer's baptism; churches with a tradition of pedobaptism look at the passage a bit differently, but of course still affirm being born again, since the phrase itself is scriptural. --Wesley

An anoymous user made a very large edit which was reverted. I have saved their version at Born again/Alternative version. The Anome 12:32 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

This is a POV sermon from an Anon User who has also made a number of other major revisions to articles regarding Christianity User contributions:80.116.222.134 and created several more that have since been deleted. I don't believe it belongs in Wikipedia. Mintguy

His/her contributions are certainly coherent, if enormous and non-NPOV. I'd like to give this person an opportunity to work with us in the NPOV process, if they want to. Otherwise, if they will not cooperate, we should treat them as a vandal. The Anome

To the author of the deleted material:

We did not delete your material because we disagree with it. We deleted it because it did not fit our neutral point of view policy, where all views are given as opinions, rather than as facts (even if we feel personally that they are facts). This enables people with multiple points of view to write articles that they can all agree on.

Would you like to work with us? The Anome 12:45 Dec 16, 2002 (UTC)

=====Below removed for work. (shortening) We might already have enough Christian explanation on this. Its entirely possible that the below is repetitious of the other... etc...

Regeneration is the impartation of a new and divine life; a new creation; the production of a new thing. It is Gen. 1:26 over again. It is not the old nature altered, reformed, or re-invigorated, but a new birth from above. This is the teaching of such passages as John 3:3-7; 5:21; Eph. 2:1, 10; 2 Cor. 5:17.

By nature man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1); the new birth imparts to him new life--the life of God, so that henceforth he is as those that are alive from the dead; he has passed out of death into life (John 5:24).

In the new birth we are made partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). We have put on the new man, which after God is created in holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:11; Col. 3:10). Christ now lives in the believer (Gal. 2:20). God's seed now abides in him (1 John 3:9). So that henceforth the believer is possessed of two natures (Gal. 5:17).

Thus regeneration is a crisis with a view to a process. A new governing power comes into the regenerate man's life by which he is enabled to become holy in experience: "Old things are passed away; behold all things are become new" (2 Cor. 5:17). See also Acts 16:14, and Ezek. 36:25-27, 1 John 3:6-9.

[edit] The necessity is universal

The need is as far reaching as sin and the human race: "Except a man (lit. anybody) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3, cf. v. 5). No age, sex, position, condition exempts anyone from this necessity. Not to be born again is to be lost. There is no substitute for the new birth: "Neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Gal. 6:15). The absolute necessity is clearly stated by our Lord: whatever is born of the flesh, must be born again of the Spirit (John 3:3-7).

John 3:6 -- "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" -- and it can never, by any human process, become anything else. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23). "They that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8); in our "flesh dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). The mind is darkened so that we cannot apprehend spiritual truth; we need a renewing of the mind (Rom. 12:2). The heart is deceitful, and does not welcome God; we need to be pure in heart to see God. There is no thought of God before the eyes of the natural man; we need a change in nature that we may be counted among those "who thought upon His name." No education or culture can bring about such a needed change. God alone can do it.

If without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Heb. 12:14); and if holiness is not to be attained by any natural development or self-effort, then the regeneration of our nature is absolutely necessary. This change, which enables us to be holy, takes place when we are born again.

Man is conscious that he does not have this holiness by nature; he is conscious, too, that he must have it in order to appear before God (Ezra 9:15). The Scriptures corroborate this consciousness in man, and, still further, state the necessity of such a righteousness with which to appear before God. In the new birth alone is the beginning of such a life to be found. To live the life of God we must have the nature of God.

We are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). It was of His own will he begat us (Jas. 1:18): Our regeneration is a creative act on the part of God, not a reforming process on the part of man. It is not brought about by natural descent, for all we get from that is "flesh." It is not by natural choice, for the human will is impotent. Nor is it by self-effort, or any human generative principle. Nor is it by the blood of any ceremonial sacrifices. It is not by pedigree or natural generation. It is altogether and absolutely the work of God. Practically speaking, we have no more to do with our second birth, than we had to do with our first birth.

The Holy Spirit is the Divine Agent in our regeneration. For this reason it is called the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Tit. 3:5). We are "born of the Spirit" (John 3:5).

John 1:12 and 13 bring together these two thoughts--the divine and the human in regeneration: Those who received Him (i. e., Christ)....were born of God. The two great problems connected with regeneration are the efficiency of God and the activity of man.

God begat us by "the word of truth" (James 1:18). We are "born again," says Peter (1 Ep. 1:23), "of incorruptible seed, by the word of God." We are "begotten through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15). These scriptures teach us that regeneration takes place in the heart of man when he reads or hears the Word of God, or the Gospel message, or both, and, because of the Spirit working in the Word as well as in the heart of man, the man opens his heart and receives that message as the Word of life to his soul. The truth is illuminated, as is also the mind, by the Spirit; the man yields to the truth, and is born again. Of course, even here, we must remember that it is the Lord who must open our hearts just as He opened the heart of Lydia (Acts 16:14). But the Word must be believed and received by man. 1 Pet. 1:25.

This is the clear teaching of John 1:12, 13 and Gal. 3:26. We become "children of God by faith in Jesus Christ." When a man, believing in the claims of Jesus Christ receives Him to be all that He claimed to be -- that man is born again.

Man therefore is not wholly passive at the time of his regeneration. He is passive only as to the change of his ruling disposition. With regard to the exercise of this disposition he is active. A dead man cannot assist in his own resurrection, it is true; but he may, and can, like Lazarus, obey Christ's command, and "Come forth!"

Psa. 90:16, 17 illustrates both the divine and human part: "Let thy work appear unto thy servants," and then "the work of our hands establish thou it." God's work appears first, then man's. So Phil. 2:12,13.

====Moved by -Stevert Be well.

The opening paragraph is, I feel, a little disingenuous. The original usage of this phrase was Christian, and the primary usage is still Christian. As far as I am aware other uses to refer to similar experiences, religious or otherwise, are derivative from the Christian usage. No objection to referring to the other usages (which are much wider than implied - e.g. born again Cowboys fan, born-again Democrat, born-again Choccolate lover), but the Christion meaning should get a mention. DJ Clayworth 17:38, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If the article says whether it applies to Orthodox, or to Catholics, or to some of the various denominations, sects, cults, whatever of Protestantism, or who knows, to Monophysites, I sure missed it. This article sounds more like a sermon than a discussion of what different people believe, or do they really all believe the same thing? 209.8.184.25 04:35, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Cut the following text which seems to have little to do with the subject.

These relate to baptism, and of the difference between the realms of the Holy, Immortal Spirit and crude, mortal flesh. Baptism is the ritual revealing of the cleansing power of the word of God.

In Christianity, regeneration is not a natural forward step in man's development; it is a supernatural act of God; it is a spiritual crisis. It is not evolution, but involution -- the communication of a new life. It is a revolution--a change of direction resulting from that life. Herein lies the danger in psychology, and in the statistics regarding the number of conversions during the period of adolescence. The danger lies in the tendency to make regeneration a natural phenomenon, an advanced step in the development of a human life, instead of regarding it as a crisis. Such a psychological view of regeneration denies man's sin, his need of Christ, the necessity of an atonement, and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

DJ Clayworth 05:19, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the reasons apply, that you cite; but, I certainly agree with the removal of the text. Talk about "crude, mortal flesh" smells funny. Mkmcconn 07:44, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Interpretation

It is interesting to consider that those who have a Near-death experience often experience the sensation of passing through a tunnel. Some have observed that as the physical act of birth entails passage through a physical "tunnel" — the birth canal — the spiritual act of birth may consist of passage through a spiritual equivalent.

In the Bible passage quoted earlier, Jesus stated that "no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again." If the rules of logic are properly applied to this phrase, it would be possible to be "born again" and not necessarily see the kingdom of God.

A contemporary speaker might say that one cannot see the Eiffel Tower unless one goes to Paris. But, one could go to Paris and never visit the Eiffel Tower. Similarly, Jesus makes it clear that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again, but does not explicitly state that being born again means that one will see the Kingdom of God (while that might indeed be the case, it cannot be logically inferred from the Bible text).

Therefore, one possible interpretation is that a person is not "born again" by saying a "sinner's prayer" or observing some rite of a church — indeed, there are no specific instructions given in the Bible for entering the state of being "born again" — but that instead, a person is "born again" at the time of death (for most people), or perhaps for a small minority of people, during a near-death experience or an intensely spiritual experience. This would not conflict with what Jesus told Nicodemus in any way.

It's also worth pointing out that Jesus had responded in the way he did after Nicodemus had said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God." Those who believe that being "born again" is synonymous with "salvation" ignore the fact that Nicodemus was not asking was not asking how to obtain forgiveness from sin, but instead was observing that Jesus was doing things that he could only do in the presence of God. Jesus' response, therefore, probably had nothing to do with the modern concept of salvation, but rather was instruction for Nicodemus as to what must happen to him before he could see the kingdom of God in the same way that Jesus did.

Note that Christian fundamentalists would most likely reject this interpretation, not only because they believe that being "born again" and having "salvation" are the same thing, but also because they believe that it is impossible for a person to be saved after the moment of physical death (although it is quite questionable whether anything in the Bible directly supports the latter assertion). Therefore, the idea that for most people, spiritual birth comes after the moment of physical death would disagree with fundamentalist dogma.

I removed the above text, as it's really just somebody's speculation.

To the author: we appreciate your desire to contribute, but Encyclopedias in general, including Wikipedia, are not intended as places for personal essays or novel interpretations. Many places on the web will be glad to receive your thoughts on the subject. We are happy to receive any factual information you have of course. DJ Clayworth 15:02, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Response to the above comment from the author:

I had already restored the deleted text before I found this page (I'm still learning my way around), however I disagree that this is a novel interpretation - I have read it, or variations of it, in literature dealing with Near-Death Experiences. It would seem to me that an encyclopedia should not just parrot the traditional viewpoint, but should be willing to allow other views to be presented as long as they are not totally "off the wall."

I would ask, how can anyone present "factual" information dealing with the topic of religion, where one person's absolute fact is another's total fantasy? Again, I based my comments on some of the things that have been reported by people who've had NDE's, a topic I've done considerable research on in the past year or so (just for my own enlightenment, not as academic research, but still...). I'm trying to reduce to four or five paragraphs the essence of what I've read in many paragraphs. If you feel my text is too speculative, I'm open to suggestions for how it might be made less so, but please bear in mind that ALL writings on religious topics are to some degree speculative unless you want to limit text to actual recorded history, or quotes from the writings of others.

I don't know if you are of the fundamentalist persuasion or not; I had assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that a fundamentalist may have disagreed with what I wrote and vandalized it. In any case, this is not a paper and ink encyclopedia; are bytes of storage such a luxury that a reasonable attempt at explaining an alternative interpretation cannot be afforded? Or do you really consider my interpretation so unreasonable, or my writing so crude that it cannot be allowed to co-exist with the more traditional viewpoint?

Anonymous: as a piece of speculation your essay is as valid as any other. But Wikipedia is like any other encyclopedia. It's not there to promote novel understandings of things, but to record what people believe about a subject. As a piece of study, if you wish this theory to be taken seriously you need to show that it was what Jesus actually meant, not just that there was some coincidental resemblance between what he said and some later reserach.

Jesus clearly considered the Kingdom of God to be something attainable on this Earth, not something you get when you die.

The translation of 'Born again' is quite close to 'born from above'. That doesn't seem to tie in with this theory.

The only actual relevance you present of NDE to the John passage is that some reports of NDE are quite like a birth in one particular respect. So are many other experiences. Is there any other evidence?

What you might consider doing is putting all this stuff in an article on Near death experience. It might then be reasonable to link from this article to NDE.

By the way, it's good ettiquette to sign your name after entries on talk pages by putting four tildes in a row, like this ~~~~ DJ Clayworth 15:22, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Response: The problem I'm having with this is that you seem to imply that an encyclopedia must of necessity only advance the most commonly-held belief on a subject. The problem is that this could impede the search for the truth. I'm sure that any reference book of the middle ages would have rejected the notion that the earth revolved around the sun, yet that didn't make it any less true.

Traditional dogma has been around for hundreds of years, yet it is being challenged by new advances in science and medicine (particularly data on near-death experiences, and Dr. Ian Stevenson's research on children who seem to recall past lives), archaeology (the Nag Hammadi library and other recent findings), and the fact that we are getting better at translating the ancient texts (due to being able to use computers to aid in the task). I don't expect that anyone who believes in the tradition dogma to ever take an alternate view seriously, any more than I would have expected a bishop in the middle ages to admit that the sun was the center of the solar system.

What I have tried to record is what some people, particularly those who've had deep spiritual experiences (in many cases as a result of an NDE actually do believe). In the minds of some, they actually are bringing information from beyond.

I agree that "Jesus clearly considered the Kingdom of God to be something attainable on this Earth." I do not agree with the second part of your sentence, "not something you get when you die." What would make you or anyone think that, at least for those who have not attained access to the Kingdom of God during this lifetime, it becomes forever unattainable at the moment of death? Please keep in mind that some Christians (though definitely not the fundamentalists) believe that souls can be reborn in another physical body (reincarnation), indeed that was what the early church father Origen believed. So the question becomes, do we have access to the "Kingdom of God" in the time after death, or between lives (if Origen was correct)?

But then you get into what is the Kingdom of Heaven, which Jesus said was all around us. My belief is that he did want to teach us how to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, and that some of his disciples did manage to do so, and that is how they were able to do some of the same works that Jesus did. But entering into the "Kingdom of Heaven" and being "Born Again" may be two different things, and only traditional dogma has tied the two ideas together as if they are the same event. There is little or no evidence that the very early Christians believed that way.

Even if "born again" meant "born from above" - and that's open to some question - you still get back to asking what "born from above" means. It still suggests an experience that goes far beyond just saying a formula "sinner's prayer."

When you talk about evidence, what evidence is there for the traditional dogma? This is all matters of faith, not evidence.

My personal belief is that if what I have written is appropriate at all, it's more appropriate here than under Near-Death Experiences. Seems like you are saying that since what I have written doesn't agree with your beliefs, it's okay to stick it under NDE, but not here. Again, my question is, is it the job of an encyclopedia to present only a traditional belief, and never any reasonable dissenting view? I think, ultimately, that it should come down to whether the alternative viewpoint is a resonable interpretation, even if an alternative one. If it is reasonable, then it should be appropriate here; if not, then it's no more valid to place it under the NDE entry.

Finally, at this point I have my reasons for wanting to remain semi-anonymous. I realize that may be a negative in some people's eyes, but Wikipedia does permit anonymous users to revise existing entries, and don't believe I have written anything totally outlandish or off-the-wall. If others disagree, I can accept that but I'd really prefer to see a reasonable objection from more than just one or two people before text is arbitrarily removed - and preferably, I'd like to see some reason as to why only traditional dogma would be considered acceptable, if that is truly the case.

Dear Anon

First, and once again, please sign your ID when you post on talk pages. Use four tildes ~~~~ like I describe above.

"not including new ideas that haven't been tested in an encyclopedia might implede the serach for the truth". It's not a question of impeding the search, it's a question of the appropriate place. Encyclopedias have a specific function, and propagating novel, untested ideas is not one of them. Look at Wiki::What Wikipedia is not. There are plenty of places where you can post radical new ideas on the web.

My reading of what you were writing was that you associated being 'born again' with death, or near-death-experience. Obviously, apart from the tiny minority of people who have an NDE, that means you don't see the Kingdom of Heaven until you die. Since it's clear that that was not what Jesus intended, your interpretation doesn't seem to be born out. I didn't mean that Jesus taught that you could only enter the Kingdom of Heaven before death, just that he taught that it could be entered before death, which you interpretation would seem to make virtually impossible. If I misunderstood what you meant to write, I suggest you explain or rewrite to make it clearer.

You are right however that your decision to remain anonymous is not helping your case. Have you ever edited Wiki articles under a login ID?

DJ Clayworth 18:09, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Since you don't seem to answer questions unless someone edits 'your' text, I'm going to rewrite to try to preserve some of what you say while removing the worst excesses. Here are comments about what you wrote.

The first paragraph, the stuff about the near-death experience seems to bear no relation to anything else in the section. Is there any reason to think that there is a 'spiritual birth' experience that looks like this? Has anyone experienced it? Or is it just an idea you came up with.

The paragraphs about Paris and the Eiffel tower are just obvious. I replaced with one sentence.

I've already explained, and you admitted, that Jesus clearly thought of the Kingdom of Heaven as something attainable in this world, so he can't have meant that you are born again at the time of death.

You are right that it is not necessary from the passage that 'born again' means salvation from sins. However the Kingdom of Heaven would be associated in Nicodemus' mind with holiness, closeness to God and God's favour. Nicodemus and Jesus would both agree, from other passages which I can get into, that closeness to God involves absence of sin, so it's likely that the two are at least related. It's not just fundamentalist Christians but almost all Christians who make the association. DJ Clayworth 14:32, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have restored the Clayworth version. In my opinion, it is much closer to the "neutral point of view" espoused by Wikipedia. Additionally, our faceless user (or, should I say, abuser) will not identify himself. Mr Clayworth, on the other hand, logs in properly and we all know who he is. Now, to the nameless intruder, unless and until you can write something better than what Mr Clayworth has written, his version is going to stay put. Sorry. Davidcannon 00:38, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Okay, as of right now I am washing my hands of Wikipedia. If you don't want (or respect) anonymous contributions, then you shouldn't allow them in the first place. Unless Mr. Clayworth is known to you personally, you really have no idea who he is, just because he uses a realistic looking name - I could do the same but I chose not to hide the fact that I prefer to remain anonymous. Now that I know otherwise, I will refrain for making any further contributions.

By the way, I didn't object to my text being edited to make it more neutral, I just object to Mr. Clayworth's methods, which seem to me to be nothing more than high-handed censorship of a viewpoint that he disagrees with. I'm not saying my writing couldn't be improved, but he basically gutted it. Anyway, this is an interesting experiment but I guess it just shows that Orwell was right - some are more equal than others.

If he's not a system administrator, I urge you to keep an eye on him (and if he is, that's all the more reason I'm outta here).

P.S. I have also made contributions under several other topics, many related to Christianity. Please feel free to nuke any you find; at this point I'm sorry I contributed anything here.

Dear Anon: your addition claiming the the born again experience is about 'sexual repression' is what we here at Wikipedia call 'POV': i.e. it represents your point of view, and not a neutral or generally accepted point of view. Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

Also while the movie 'Saved' is indeed about a Christian High School, I don't think it is particularly about the subject of being born again. You might find other articles that it is more relevant to: Christian school for example. You might also start by writing an article about the movie. DJ Clayworth 13:19, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A Conservative is a member of the Conservative Party, and given a capital, just as Democrat is given a capital when meaning a member of the Democratic Party. DJ Clayworth 01:14, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Clayworth,

Congratulations on being given the right to speak for all Wikipedians. One normally distrusts people who speak in the imperial 'we' because it is a demogogue's trick. There is no 'we' of course because there is no collective consciousness. That last statement is an example of a philosophical approach called methodological individualism. Speaking in the imperial 'we' is also the kind of verbal ploy used by old ladies at Methodist church coffees who are intent on excluding newcomers.

I do think the movie in question is highly relevant to this article. Thus we disagree about a question that calls for the use of judgment.

Have a nice day. (anon contribution)

Thank you for the congratulations, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. DJ Clayworth 01:11, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Born Again

Different religions interpret the bible differently. I have friends who tell me they are born again, however, I don't know what that means. As long as you are baptized aren't you born with the spirit? Also, doesn't "...that which is born of the spirit is spirit" mean while the flesh part of us dies, our spirit lives eternally in God's Kingdom, and that is when we are born again?

Absolutely right, different denominations do interpret this passage differently. Catholics associate the term with baptism; when a person is baptised, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them, revealing to them the truth about God and Jesus, and also providing comfort and encouragement to the Christian, enabling them to live a life pleasing to God. A Protestant believes much the same about the Holy Spirit, though they might believe that being born again occurs at conversion, or at a special experience of the Holy Spirit. Most Christians would agree on who the Holy Spirit is and what he does, but might differ in some of the details. Particularly they would agree that a Christian needs the Holy Spirit to live a Christian life. Many Christians use "Born Again" to mean a powerful experience of the Holy Spirit, which empowers them for God. If you want to know what being Born Again means to your friends, I would recommend asking them. I'm sure they will be willing to talk about it. If you want to ask me, leave a message at my talk page. DJ Clayworth 06:01, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

dd

[edit] Merge

Please don't merge with List of born-again Christian laypeople. That article is messy, and likely to grow overlong. Also it's really about politics. However some of the writing (as opposed to the list) is useful, and could be moved here, leaving the actual list in the list article. DJ Clayworth 13:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oops. I didn't mean to merge the whole article and redirect. Just the paragraphs of discussion at the bottom. The list itself should stay where it is. I've fixed the message to reflect that. -Wiccan Quagga 06:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Merge into a category of self-identified (obviously) category:Born again Christians? Dunc|☺ 2 July 2005 21:50 (UTC)

Technically "born-again Christian" is a tautology. All Christians are born-again, so maybe we should just have a category of Christians. It's going to be a pretty large category though. DJ Clayworth 4 July 2005 15:03 (UTC)

Actually, you must mean that UNtechnically, it's a tautology. As technical terminology, I'm sure that you know that it is not used by everyone. It is used by evangelical Christians in the revivalist tradition. When someone asks whether you are a "born-again Christian", this terminology indicates the intention to ask two questions at once: 1. Do you consider yourself to be a Christian? 2. Have you "asked Jesus into your heart" - have you had a personal experience of conversion "from the death of sin, to new life"? If they didn't mean to distinguish Christians "of the nominal kind" from Christians "of the converted kind", they wouldn't ask you for a double confirmation of your identity, this way. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

Similarly, other people might ask you, "Are you a born-again, spirit-filled Christian?" No Christian should answer "no" to this unless they understand its technical meaning, and realize that the person is asking you whether you share their understanding of the full Christian life. Mkmcconn (Talk) \

What you are pointing out though, I guess, is that this terminology is not NPOV, which needs to be made clear? Mkmcconn (Talk) 4 July 2005 15:50 (UTC)

No, I do mean "technically". A good Catholic, who knows their theology, when asked "are you a born again Christian" should answer "yes". There's a reference explaining that in the article. Admittedly the terminology is rarely used in such circles, but if you dig down it should be. I don't know many people who would give a different answer to the questions "are you a Christian" and "are you born-again". Those that do probably would do so because they don't want to be associated with a label that sppears to have been appropriated by one particular group of Christians. DJ Clayworth 4 July 2005 16:10 (UTC)

A difference in what is meant by "technical language", I guess. You are saying that they might not want to be associated with that label, because the label has a technical meaning not shared by all Christians. It has been appropriated by that group for the purposes of making a distinction between the usual, generic use of the terms, and a special, technical use of the terms. Mkmcconn (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:49 (UTC)

In other words, a Catholic should say, "I am not an evangelical Protestant, if that's what you mean. But yes, I am a Christian, and I have been given new life through the grace of God, by baptism into Christ". Mkmcconn (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:52 (UTC)

That would probably be a good response. DJ Clayworth 4 July 2005 16:54 (UTC)

I removed a 'cleanup' marker because there doesn't seem to be anything the matter with the article. DJ Clayworth 02:28, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

just added it last night. weird quote marks "ot simply a „I don’t want to sin no more”, but the repentant" bad fmt etc-Omegatron 02:42, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV??

Self-described born again Christians are usually extremely enthusiastic and outspoken concerning their new-found beliefs

The above statement strikes me as a stereotype. What's the factual basis for saying that that most born-again Christians are outspoken? As noted in the article, many denominations have a "born-again" element to their theology, but I bet the above generalization doesn't particularly pertain to Roman Catholics, for example. At best, the comment is circular logic. The only born-again Christians people are likely to be aware of are the "outspoken" ones, but that doesn't necessarily mean that most are like that. What do other people think? BrainyBroad 05:47, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. Additionally, the statement implies that a "born again Christian" is also a "new" Christian; many "self-described born again Christians" have described themselves as such for decades. I favor an edit. KHM03 11:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I put this sentence in as an intro to the section explaining why 'born again' has passed into general usage meaning 'enthusiastic and devoted'. Someone added 'new-found' without me noticing, and I've removed it. In essence it's the stereotype that has caused the phrase to become generally used, so the section is bound to be somewhat about it. Feel free to tinker. DJ Clayworth 13:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some/Most

Lulu, my apologies. I changed your 'some' back to 'most' meaning to add a comment here and then didn't. "Most" Christian denominations do in fact consider that it is necessary to be born again to be a Christian, including Catholics. The difference is in the interpretation of what constitutes being born again. Catholics consider that it occurs at baptism (which is stated a few sentence down). Evangelicals and other Protestants believe a wider variety of other things, and they are the ones who use the term most frequently. There is an interesting article from the Catholic Encyclopedia which summarises the Catholic position. DJ Clayworth 15:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess I can live with "most" once the explanation of the hyper-technical meaning (for, e.g. Orthodox Churches) is included later. But the version you restored before also used "agree that" rather than "believe", which seems like POV arguing for the correctness of the Xtain belief. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 15:46, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

I kind of meant 'agree with each other', but I'm not worried. 'believe' is fine. DJ Clayworth 17:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How about many?

I know this is slightly pedantic, but most still seems like an unsupported factual claim. As in: There are 100 Xtian denominations, and the theology of at least 51 of those denominations says... I don't know how, precisely, to count denominations for this numerical claim. Many feels like "more than some" w/o being quite so numerical. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 15:53, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

Whil I haven't been and counted, we know that Catholics believe this. Most 'sola scriptura' Protestants do because of the bible passage quoted. Anglicans do (from personal knowledge). Orthodox think like Catholics (according to Eastern Orthodox Church). A quick check seems to be turning up sites for most of the main denominations which seem to say something similar [1]. The difference as far as I can tell is not in whether they believe 'being born again' is the mark of a true Christian (it being hard to get away from what Jesus said here) but the difference is in the interpretation of what 'born again' means. DJ Clayworth 16:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Some of us non-sola scriptura Protestants believe it, too! KHM03 19:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Cricicism"?

What is the point of the "Criticism" section? It is hard to see what it is even a criticism of! Just seems like a completely random comment to me.

Also: theologically can't "born again" be interpreted eschatologically? Perhaps someone more informed than I could comment on this.

CSMR 06:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

If you mean that born again might refer to the Resurrection, it doesn't mean that in any Christian denomination I've ever heard of.

The meaning behind "born again" is typically used by protestants (Baptists, Methodists, Lutherins, ETC) to say that they consider themselves "saved." Being saved can be beter explained by John 3-16 in the Bible. But I won't expand on this further.CharlieP216 22:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As for the criticism section, I personally don't think it's appropriate here, as the criticism is really about Christianity in politics, but several people thought it did belong here and argued to keep it. DJ Clayworth 13:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Born Again Christian Userbox

Just to let you all know that you can now place a userbox on your User page with the text "This user is a Born Again Christian.". Simply put the following on your User page:

{{user born again}}

See Wikipedia:Userboxes#Religion (or below) for an example.

—gorgan_almighty 11:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I wish we didn't do this. If you read the article you will find that all Christians are in fact born-again. Why don't we just have an infobox that says "this user is a Christian"? (posted by User:DJ Clayworth)

I agree; I've always had similar problems with the term "Spirit-filled Christian". All Christians are by definition filled with the Spirit. We aren't very good at using language properly. KHM03 20:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

That one at least is marginally arguable. Christians could be more or less spirit-filled. In several parts of the Bible Chrstians are described as 'full of the spirit', which presumably implies that there can be those that are 'less full'. DJ Clayworth 21:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

But if we believe that Christians receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, then all are "Spirit-filled". KHM03 22:38, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Born Again Info" link

The link in question is NOT spam.

It is not even a new addition to this page.

Indeed it was posted on this very page for well over a year by one of the people who worked on this page. Here for example is the exact same link on this page in February 2004.

Visit this url: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Born_again&diff=2297298&oldid=2285580

These people, like I do, deem it a valuable addition to this page. Your attempts to smear it as spam betray your sectarian bias.

Please stop your irresponsible behaviour in repeatedly removing it.

The link was on this page long before you came here because it deserves to be here.

--Abeseed 14:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

This link, which is repeatedly added by User:Abeseed, seems to me to be little more than spam. It is not from any denominational source nor is it from any authoritative theologian or respected writer(s). In my opinion, it doesn't belong here, howver well intentioned it may be. Thoughts? KHM03 12:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. I guess I don't have a strong opinion either way; however, I DO feel that if it is to be present, it needs to be labelled as "fundamentalist," which is what it is. --Midnite Critic 00:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's pentecostal. I've been browsing it. Pollinator 04:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so it's fundamentalist pentecostal. --Midnite Critic 14:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Not the same thing. Very different approaches to Christianity. If you don't believe it, try labeling someone from Bob Jones U of being pentecostal. Un huh. Pollinator 15:10, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to post the comments about this from KHM03's Talk page:

The link mentioned is NOT spam, and has been in place on the Wiki site's Born-Again_Christian page for over a year. Since that page was merged with this one here it is essential to prevent the theological and sectarian bias Wiki now gives to visitors on this topic.

The link should remain, or the more popular Wiki page reinstated to give Wiki visitors the right to choose for themselves which is best.

Kindly review the points below:

Please do not remove the link to the Born Again Christian Info site on the [Born-again] Wiki page.

It is NOT spam and highly relevant.

The similar Wiki page [Born-again_Christian] has linked to this site for over a year, but was recently removed and visitors redirected to the 'Born Again' page in Wiki.

The site Born Again Christian Info is an authority site packed with highly relevant resources on precisely this topic. It is non commercial, and hosted by a self-financed missionary.

Its addition is essenial to prevent Wiki presenting a biased sectarian view of what being Born again means.

--Abeseed 00:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Abe: Could you expand on that? IMHO, the "born article" is quite "fair and balanced." What do you find otherwise in the article? --Midnite Critic 02:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC) There must have been some discussion before the Born-again_Christian Wiki page was removed and redirected to the Born-again Wiki page, but I can't find any. Could you direct me to it please.

Since the original Born-again_Christian page had a link to the authortiy site Born Again Christian Info for over a year, I think it is valid to include this link on the Born-again Wiki page, which has usurped the original.

Please do not remove it, or get a proxy to remove it. I had no part in the construction of either page.

--Abeseed 13:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it was removed because it is 404? - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 21:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

There was no 404 with the link before or after it was replaced. Access is fine.

Actually, the link WAS 404 for a time, but that was apparently temporary. --Midnite Critic 02:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Why has there not been any prior discussion about the removal of the Born-again_Christian Wiki page, and its redirection to the Born_again Wiki page.

The former was more popular, and less influenced by theological and sectarian bias.

Why not reinstate the Born-again_Christian page and remove the redirection, to give Wiki visitors a more balanced view of what being Born again means?

I repeat, I had no part in the writing of either Wiki page. I think this is time for some sensible, comments and responsible discussion.

--Abeseed 01:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

--Abeseed 02:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

It still qualifies as WP:SPAM and is from a non-authoritative source. KHM03 03:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Born Again Christian Info

As stated the link is NOT spam, it was on the Born-Again_Christian page in Wiki for well over a year. A page which has been removed from Wiki without any apparent discussion. A page carefully created by other Wiki contributors who deemed the link authoritative and useful to Wiki visitors.

The complete original page has now been replaced by this one which has a profound theological and sectarian bias.

Therefore the original Wiki page Born-Again_Christian should be reinstated to give Wiki visitors the opportunity to decide.

Until then the valuable link under discussion should remain on this page.

Born Again Christian Info

Please do NOT remove it again.

If you dispute this, please go through the proper procedure instead of repeatedly removing it and falsely and irresponsibly labelling it spam.

--Abeseed 01:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I know nothing about a Born Again Christian article; I can't speak to it. If you feel this article is biased and POV, then, by all means, make some edits. As far as proper procedure, I have followed it and will continue to do so. The link is non-authoritative spam, and needs to be treated as such. Again, if you feel the article can use some help, then by all means...help. KHM03 01:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

As I explained repeatedly, there were two Wiki pages on this topic, one has been removed and redirected to this page, without apparent discussion, and it bore the link I have placed here for over a year. The link is NOT spam, and is essential to prevent a more balanced description to Wiki users.

The original page should be reinstated as before. It was entitled Born-Again_Christian and was more popular with Wiki vistors than this page.

The addition on a link to the Born Again Christian Info site is also essential here. You're repeated attempts to inappropriately label it as spam prove your sectarian bias. Do NOT remove it again.

--Abeseed 01:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

My bias is toward good, authoritative, worthwhile material. Not spam. The link is sectarian spam, pure and simple. Please let me know what denomination supports the site or what authorities support it. It's a private website, it seems to me, with someone's personal opinions. It's spam. Again, please try and improve the accuracy of the article, rather than just adding a spam link. And please drop the bit about an article which doesn't exist anymore...the argument is meaningless. Start an article about Born again Christians or edit this one. Thanks....KHM03 15:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

You are in error KHM03, and obviously missed this:

The link in question is NOT spam.

It is not even a new addition to this page.

Indeed it was posted on this very page for well over a year by one of the people who worked on this page. Here for example is the exact same link on this page in February 2004.

Visit this url: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Born_again&diff=2297298&oldid=2285580

These people, like I do, deem it a valuable addition to this page. Your attempts to smeer it as spam betray your sectarian bias.

Please stop your irresponsible behaviour in repeatedly removing it.

The link was on this page long before you came here because it deserves to be here.

In addition, the site contains material from a wide range of authoritative sources. If you had taken the time to check you would see material from; William Tyndale, John Foxe, Reformers such as John Bradford, Latimer, Ridley, Archbishop Cranmer et al, as well as modern authorities such as Charles Finney, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, William Booth, Catherine Booth, Smith Wigglesworth, and many others.

Equally important are the opinions of other Wiki contributors, such as those who placed the link here originally almost two years ago, and where it deserves to remain.

--Abeseed 22:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Abeseed: The link is indeed spam. Additionally, how long it was on any page doesn't matter. I'm not sure why you've mentioned that. Yes, we've established that I do in fact have a sectarian bias...toward accuracy and against spam. I'll assume good faith on your part, and take it as a compliment...thank you. I do take issue with your charge of irresponsibility; please review WP:CIV and WP:NPA. I'll assume you meant no offense. There are many sites online with materials by Cranmer, etc. -- why is this site in particular so important? Is there a specific article by Cranmer (et al) about the "born again" subject to which you care to link? That would be acceptable, probably. But just a blanket link is spam. Please review the site if it's that important to you and find an article about "born again", and try that link. Thanks...KHM03 00:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

PS - What's so odd about your possible accusations is that I am an evangelical who believes strongly in the new birth; I'm not opposing the theology of being born again, I'm opposing a link which is spam. KHM03 01:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I repeat, the link in question is NOT spam.

Born Again Christian Info

Indeed it was posted on this very page for almost two years on merit. To now remove it on the false claim that it is spam is clearly wrong. Many other Wiki contributors, as well as me, have endorsed its placement on this page because the whole site is about being Born again.

You are again also in error: The longevity of it being here without anybody making the precipitate accusation you do, is highly relevant.

Again, I remind people to visit this url as evidence of this link being here since at least Feb 04, an: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Born_again&diff=2297298&oldid=2285580

It is a valuable addition to this page. Your attempts to smear it as spam betray your efforts to use Wiki to transmit your sectarian bias.

Please stop your irresponsible behaviour in repeatedly removing it.

The link was on this page long before you came here because it deserves to be here.

Now, kindly refrain from your divisive behaviour, and remember Who is the whole point of this page, and honour His instructions not to argue like the world. Instead rather, to set an example of love and unity in The Truth.

--Abeseed 12:21, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Not sure why you keep mentioning the same points which have no relevance...

1. The longevity of any link or any part of an article does not mean that it cannot be edited or removed. That's basic Wikipedia policy. So, please, if we're going to dialogue, drop this meaningless point. Thanks.
2. Yes, we've established my bias toward accuracy. No need to go over it and over it. I've accepted your compliment...thanks agin. So, please, if we're going to dialogue, drop this meaningless point. Thanks.
3. Here's the main point: you haven't established why it's a valuable addition to the page. You're asking for an exception to WP:SPAM; please make your case.
4. Watch the WP:3RR policy.

Thanks...KHM03 12:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Your remarks are already fully covered by my previous posts here, and your belligerent attitude does you no credit. I have had to replace the link several times already following your false accusations that it is spam, and you have ignored my request to cease. Your actions are divisive and once again, I respectfully ask you to change your attitude, and remember why we are here.

--Abeseed 13:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Abeseed: You have been reported for violation of WP policy. Please cease violation and make your case here as to why the link is so important. Thanks...KHM03 13:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Born Again Info" link, part 2

Abeseed: What specifically is in that link article which is unique or authoritative that can help shed light on the subject in a way that no other link might do? KHM03 12:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The blocking was uncalled for, and based on a chronological technicality and your false report that I was not discussing this. If the moderator had bothered to check this Talk page they would have seen my patient and detailed replies to you.

The claim that the link is spam is clearly fatuous, and your repeated assertions that it is spam betray your theological and sectarian bias.

• Born Again Christian Info

Many prior contributors have found this site to be a valuable additon to this Wiki page because of its depth of coverage of the topic of being Born again, as I stated earlier:

The link was on this page long before you came here because it deserves to be here. In addition, the site contains material from a wide range of authoritative sources. If you had taken the time to check you would see material from; William Tyndale, John Foxe, Reformers such as John Bradford, Latimer, Ridley, Archbishop Cranmer et al, as well as modern authorities such as Charles Finney, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, William Booth, Catherine Booth, Smith Wigglesworth, and many others.

To single out a particular authority would be wrong, it is best to use the landing page in the link to allow Wiki users to see the full depth and extent of what this vital experience includes.

For example, the landing page leads to many articles covering what being born again is, and what it is not. Being born again includes far more than is even hinted at on this Wiki page. It also has numerous links to actual testimonies of individuals, both historical and contemporary, of what it is like to be born again. Of great use to Wiki visitors are the detailed pages showing how to be born again themselves, and the feedback pages show the powerful results. But of most importance is the fact that the Person who graciously gave us this divine experience is given first place throughout the site, and it is His Authority which needs to be honoured far above petty sectarian wrangling and (forgive me) silly allegations of spamming.

If such a valuable site, that has long given Wiki users great benefit, is removed from Wiki because one individual is allowed to dominate the page and impose his own sectarian world view on the topic, there is little credibility in the value of Wiki as an independent or neutral resource. --Abeseed 00:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

?

If you believe that I am biased toward accuracy, then why are you worried about my bias? Isn't accuracy what we're after? To what other sectarian bias do you refer? Is there one of which I am not aware?

1. What article on the "landing site" is so valuable that you feel it must be included?
2. Why must this specific article be included?
3. What problem is there with the article as it currently stands that you hope to correct by adding a link to this specific article?

Please be as specific as possible. Thanks...KHM03 01:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, I have no authority to block; if you read the documentation page, you'll see that I requested no action be taken. You were, however, in violation of WP:3RR as attested by two administrators; they made the decision to block, not I...let's be clear. I simply documented your reverts. KHM03 01:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is KHM03 being allowed to persists in removing a legitimate link to a site filled with valuable information on the precise topic of being born again?

Many prior editors of this page have approved and endorsed it for nearly two years. Nobody else has made the ludicrous assertion that the link is 'spam'.

KHM03: Your belligerance and antagonistic attitude is unhelpful to the point of insolence, and merely turns Wiki into another 'arguing arena'.

I repeat that it is wrong to single out any denomination or person's view on the Born Again Christian Info site, but rather keep the link pointing to the main landing page and allow Wiki users to decide which of the many aspects of this experience they wish to investigate further; ie. historical, 'how to', 'what is', or personal experiences, etc.

God's people do not indulge in argument, (or argument masquerading as 'constructive discussion') therefore to resolve this I call for a panel of unbiased Christian arbitrators to decide the matter.

Would moderators reading this kindly arrange that today please?

Thank you.

--Abeseed 01:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I will continue to try and work with you and try to reach a mutual understanding. I have asked three reasonable questions, with the intention that we can use your answers as a springboard to dialogue. I'm willing to discuss. Please work with me. Thanks...KHM03 01:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

A clear consensus of agreement between unbiased Wiki editors (that this precise link is a valuable and useful addition to this page) has already been obtained and maintained for nearly two years.

For a single divisive individual to come along, remove it, then cause so much friction and dissension over its replacement, displays a serious lack of objectivity on his part.

Let a panel of unbiased Christian arbitrators decide the matter.

Moderators: please facilitate this today.

Thank you.

--Abeseed 01:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, my opinion is that this link has no place here. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, and this link is just one of thousands of 'born again' sites on the internet. It has no special authority, and nothing particularly relavent to an encyclopedia article. You are calling for a 'panel of unbiased Christian arbitrators' - sorry, wikipedia doesn't do that. It is not a Christian encyclopedia - but a neutral encyclopedia see WP:NPOV. We work by consensus - and as it stands there is a consensus here that this link doesn't belong. So unless you can persuade other editors otherwise, please do not reinsert the link. It will be reverted - and if you continue to revert, you may well be blocked for a longer period. --Doc ^ask? 01:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Abeseed, I think that calling it "spam" may not be communicating well. The reason the word is used is not because it's sending out lots of unsolicited advertisements, but because that site is not defined to inform as much as it is to persuade; consequently, including a link to it appears to be an attempt to proseletize readers, promoting one narrow view of the Christian experience, rather than to inform and educate them. Looking at the edit history, I see that KHM03 is not the only one to have removed it in the last few days; he isn't acting alone in this. That the link was overlooked for two years does not by itself vouch for its quality; wikipedia has large backlog of articles that are flagged as needing various kinds of attention, and doubtless many more that should be flagged as such. We get to those areas as we can, and this happened to be caught at this time. And while this might seem like anti-Christian bias, believe me, it's not. Wesley 03:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I entirely concur with the above comments from Doc and Wesley. The link in question has no value for our readers other than as an example of proselytizing and inspirational articles by and/or for born-again Christians. The Born again article currently has links to sermons and theological essays that discuss the theological concept of being born again as such. If Abeseed or one of our other editors wishes to review all the articles included on Born Again Christian Info to see if there are articles similar to those currently linked, then then these can be linked directly. Wesley's criterion is exactly on point: linked articles should inform, not persuade. KHM03 was right to remove it, and it should not be reinserted. JHCC (talk) 15:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does Mormonism have a form of belief of "Born again"?

I'd like to knew if they do or not, recordly.Thanks.And do they pratice this type of belief?

• I've never heard a Mormon refer to themselves as "Born Again." Indeed, there's a bit of animosity between Mormons and born-again Christians, as regularly Utah is visited by born-again protesters who go out in front of the temple and tell everybody they're going to hell, that sort of thing. -- MisterHand 17:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• I suspect they wouldn't shrink from calling themselves "born again," although they may not use the term as actively as others. Best to ask them though, just ask the question at Talk:Mormonism or a related page. Wesley 03:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• In my five or six years as a Mormon, I never heard any apply the terms to themselves; indeed, there is often some friction between Mormons and the self-defined "born again" group as described by MisterHand. In my experience, when confronted with the question, most Mormons would generally refer to John 3:5, indicating that, through baptism, they were "born again" and just chose not to use the term as such. Deadsalmon 03:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pentecostalism

Someone added 'Pentecostalism' to the places where we describe the branches of Christainity where 'born again' is most used. I would consider Pentecostalism to be part of Evangelicalism in general terms. I would certainly consider most pentecostals fall under the heading of 'Evanglical Protestantism'. No? DJ Clayworth 16:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I would consider Pentecostalism a subset of Evangelicalism, yes. User:Pollinator, a good editor (have you ever worked with him?), seems to know more about it than I do, though, so you may want to follow up with him. KHM03 16:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Well there's a range of each, so it's hard to speak in absolutes. Some pentecostals would fit quite well under the evangelical umbrella, but others would not, including those who are non-trinitarian and those who believe in special revelation. Pentecostalism also places a lot of emphasis (indeed delight) on "signs and wonders" which evangelicals tend to view with skepticism, or at least greatly de-emphasize. That's why I thought it better to list them separately. Pollinator 04:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's leave it. However I want to keep lists like this as short os apossible to maximise readability. DJ Clayworth 15:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"It is not unusual for a convert to this religion to have a history of vice, crime, violence, or even heresy prior to joining; it is believed by this sect that as the person leaves those elements of his life behind he is then "born again" as a new spiritual being."

That isn't really a very helpful statement, for several reasons. 1) histories of crime and violence are unusual in converts to Christianity, because histories of crime and violence are unusual in the general population. 2) You can't be guilty of heresy unless you are a member of the religion you are heretical against. 3) The general view is not "if you leave your previous life of crime you are born again". The two are not necessarily related. 'Born again' is a spiritual change, which should (of course) beaccompanied by an improvement in morlity. However the improvement in morality does not necessarily indicate a spiritual change. I've removed the sentence. DJ Clayworth 18:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You mean Chuck Colson started this?

I had no idea that Chuck Colson, Nixon's "dirty tricks" guy and a convicted felon, was behind the "born again" movement. That's great info. --John Nagle 20:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't behind it but brought it to peoples attention as mentioned. CharlieP216