Talk:Border Collie

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Removed possible copyright infringement. Text that was previously posted here is the same as text from this webpage:

http://pets.yahoo.com/pets/dogs/breed_guide/herding/?breed=border_collie

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I took this out "They have the appearance of a Golden Retriever and Shepherd Dog mix." I can't see how it helps the article - I tried to imagine the dog described and could not (what's a shepherd dog?) and on the other hand there is a photo just inches away, which renders the description redundant, unlike in the other article which had no photo. I hope this does not cause offence to the author of that sentence. Nevilley 07:29 16 May 2003 (UTC)

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I am sure Sannse is right about Lassie. Well, I don't actually know what a rough collie is, but I do agree that Lassie was certainly not a border collie - she was the pointy-nosed thing that lots of people just call "collie" and not the black+white thing you shout "away to me" and "come by" at on One Man And His Dog. :) Nevilley 00:15 17 May 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 POV material about BCs as working dogs 2 Coat varieties 3 weight 4 Clancy the croc 5 Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts 6 Some questionable information here 7 Smooth Coat cross picture 8 Smooth Coat cross picture 9 yellow 10 Photo request 11 Breed issue, again 11.1 Clarifying "Amusing" Removal 12 Removed request for images

[edit] POV material about BCs as working dogs

Border collies *can* do well in the breed ring and also still have the energy and drive and intelligence of a working dog; I see them occasionally. It is *not* true that BCs make awful pets, also *not* true that the only reason to own or breed BCs is for working stock. I have adjusted the text to better reflect what I know about BCs (being around a lot of them all the time for many years). I have many friends with BCs who excel at dog agility, many of them coming from "working lines" (which is also coming to mean BCs who aren't just pets or beauty queens but don't necessarily ever work stock), and all of them are pets and companions as well. Elf | Talk 23:16, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nice work on neutralising there Elf. I agree with all you say here. -- sannse (talk) 18:56, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Of course, of course--and I'm deleting that reqimage msg. Doesn't make sense here, many wikipedia articles have far fewer, or none....Quill 22:48, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Replacing; follow link to see what I've requested in all cases. :-) Elf | Talk 23:04, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Coat varieties

someone just added that there are 3 coat varieties of BCs. I'm not familiar with such. The only short-haired variety I'm familiar with is the McNab. Elf | Talk 06:12, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The UKC recognizes "varied lengths" for coats. AKC recognizes two, rough (med. coat) and smooth (short coat; may havae slight feathering), both with dense waterproof undercoats. ANKC says double coated with moderately long topcoat. All say BCs must be double-coated with short, sense waterproof undercoat. In practice, I've only seen med to long coats. Quill 11:26, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] weight

i came to this article expecting to see what a border collie weighs. similar information is found on the cocker spaniel and labrador page immediately. Can someone familiar with the breed add that? SchmuckyTheCat 20:18, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[Quill shrugs] Not really. The ANKC breed standard (originating country) does not specify a weight. These are working dogs; the only specification is that they should not be 'overweight'. The USBCC says there is no standard, they are 'in general' a medium sized dog, 25-55 pounds--take your pick....

Quill 23:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clancy the croc

"Clancy 'the Croc'. Grand-daughter of famous Australian TV Border Collie (Pal Ad). Begun her career with a short and largely unsuccessful stint as a showdog, before being forced to exit on grounds of a controversially 'square behind' "

Does this dog actually have any significance? From what I know a dog does not gain recognition by simply being a show dog or even a relative to a more famous dog!

Im a bit weary about removing it myself in case it does deserve placement here.but a google search revealed nothing so i have my doubts! Tekana (O.o) Talk 18:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Even if bona fide, this does not a famous dog make. Quill 22:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Elf | Talk 22:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Note that I tried to find info on this dog on the web also. This dog doesn't appear to be famous or even notable. Elf | Talk 16:32, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Seems original post may have been true, found some evidence of this dog's fame http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/coll/dadbo/madin~5.html; possible repost?

(posted by Elf | Talk 22:42, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Just the facts, Ma'am, just the facts

Am I way off base, or is the black-and-white far and away the most common colour? Nothing against tris, which I happen to like. And how many links to clubs and forums do we need? WP is not a link repository, people keep telling me. We could use some cleanup. Quill 02:05, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh, I have no idea how to pare down the links. I don't really have a good idea which of all the registries are the key ones, but there are most assuredly 2 or 3 in the U.S. at least. Oh, yeah, and tris are OK, but blue merles take the cake. ;-) I was at an agility trial a couple of months ago where a competitor asked me what breed my dog was, and I said BC, and they said they'd never seen or heard of a blue merle BC before--they were surprised when I was able to turn around and point out some others and name several additional ones in the area. Apparently they had never realized that they were BCs because they were blue merle & not B&W. I wonder how much that lack of knowledge or familiarity shapes "the common perception"? Elf | Talk 03:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That's just it--I never said "the common perception" was the right one. The general still call that poor lady "Princess Diana"...Quill 22:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Two of the links in this section were dead, and one went to a web forum. So I removed those three. (if you guys feel the webforum is somehow a signifigant site in referece to border collies, feel free to add it back. I figure this helps a tiny amount :-/ - Trysha ^(talk) 18:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

link title

THESE ARE THE BEST DOGS EVER :) I JUST HAD TO SAY THAT

I HAVE TO SECOND THAT TOO:)

Border Collies SUCK

[edit] Some questionable information here

I'd like to see this objectively updated. Much of the non-quantitative information - outside of height, weight, colour, etc - is questionable.

"Conformation-bred dogs are seldom if ever seen on the sheepdog field trial." This after saying that they make terrible pets if not given a job seems incongruous.

"Breeding for 'beauty contests' has long been understood to water down this ability." Really? By whom? How long? For what reasons? How do beautiful herding dogs cope?

I think, perhaps, outlining the disagreement between conformation proponents and working proponents in a separate section and removing such comments from the body of the article would go a long way to objectifying the content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.130.104 (talk • contribs) .

I agree; I think I've edited some of this sort of stuff before, but it gets away from me. :-) Elf | Talk 20:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. I seem to remember similar discussions. Edit away. The working dog/show dog thing has been touched on in other articles--maybe an article just on that? This is particularly interesting since surrendipitously, one dog project editor now owns a working border collie who is beautiful, and another owns a beautiful border collie who works....Quill 22:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Heyyyy, waiiiiit a minute, my beautiful BC is also talented; she's going to be an agility champion someday and is working very hard at learning how to be one (not that I'm thinking that "who works" is somehow downplaying that role)! This is no couch potato glamour queen. :-) (OK, I have no idea how she compares to show dogs, but i've been told she has "good teeth". (grins cheerfully). ) Elf | Talk 22:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Smooth Coat cross picture

If no one has any major objections, I'm going to remove the "Smooth Coated Border Collie cross" picture.

It's a mixed breed that looks more Australian Cattle Dog than Border Collie. While it may be a popular Australian working dog mix -I can't confirm or contradict that statement - it really doesn't have much place in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CMacMillan (talk • contribs) .

OK by me, although it looks more like a BC than an ACD to me. Elf | Talk 21:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Smooth Coat cross picture

I thought that it was possible to have a purebred smooth BC. Why is the picture of a cross even up there to begin with?

And as an aside, why are Border Terriers supposed to be the most suitable companions for BCs? Why not another high-energy herding breed? I'm curious here--I keep mostly terriers, not BCs.

Mythicaldog 11:59, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed both. Thanks. Elf | Talk 17:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] yellow

There are yellow border collies. I have one of my own!!!! Rubedeau 02:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

And you are right. The terms for these "yellow" BCs are gold, yellow, lemon. They all stem from the red BCs and then depends on breeding and genetics to determine the degree of the color. We have one that is peach and white. Very rare coloring.

There are also lilac border collies which technically comes from brown. I own a blue border collie which is dark grey.

[edit] Photo request

Why is this page still on the requested breed photos list? It seems to have plenty of good quality images. --Pharaoh Hound 19:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breed issue, again

Wow. I had heard that the AKC vs. ABC issue was huge, but I guess I didn't realize how much it would infiltrate nearly every edit.

"The many people who depend on the breed for their livelihood in managing livestock know that Border collies bred strictly to work are the best representatives of the original premier livestock working breed. Breeding for "beauty contests" has long been understood to water down this ability."

and...

"However, many people who own Border Collies as pets and also compete with them in the wide variety of dog sports available to them prefer to have Border Collies who come from working lines, not show lines, because the intelligence, drive, and athleticism are preserved over a lush coat or standard size and weight. The future shape of this breed is still very much in question and is largely dependant on whether working breeders will accept being marginalized or whether they can educate people to appreciate the breed for what it really is, a premier livestock working dog."

A little POV there? Sources maybe? "Many people who own ... prefer to have Border Collies who come from working lines..."? Really? Not that I've experienced but I could easily be wrong. Again, source?

C'mon people, we can do better than that and still give weight to the AKC vs. ABC issue. Try to see the sides and it might help with the POV. If I said "Many breeders believe that breeding strictly working dogs is responsible for the widespread Border Collie Eye Anomoly defect, as well as predisposition for seizures and IMHA" would you see the POV more clearly? -CMacMillan 17:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Need some numbers and facts here rather than unsupported opinion. Too many weasel words and a lack of a nuetral position in this section. Trial results here in Australia show that both pedigreed ANKC and other BC's are used in agility competition. It should be possible to get some actual numbers for the various dog sports for various codes showing what type of dogs are running in the events. As a random sample I looked at results for a trial in West Australia and saw 9 ANKC purebred dogs (one a show champion) and 4 associate non-purebred dogs had qualifying runs. This does not necessarily mean that most Austrlalian competitors prefer ANKC registered dogs or that purebred dogs are better than non-purebred dogs. Figures simply show what dogs are currently used, so they can help people form their own opinion. I'm not sure of the situation in other countries, but it's also worth remembering that people breeding dogs under a certain registry are not necessarily breeding 'show dogs' anyway. Breeders also breed specifically for performance events as well. --Bcsr4ever 23:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I cut the two paras:

"Some people believe that the emphasis placed on appearance might ruin the breed for its traditional livestock work because breeding for appearance eliminates emphasis on intelligence and working ability. Others believe that, in today's world, where livestock work is uncommon, the beauty of the breed is the factor that should be preserved. The many people who depend on the breed for their livelihood in managing livestock know that Border collies bred strictly to work are the best representatives of the original premier livestock working breed. Breeding for "beauty contests" has long been understood to water down this ability."

"However, many people who own Border Collies as pets and also compete with them in the wide variety of dog sports available to them prefer to have Border Collies who come from working lines, not show lines, because the intelligence, drive, and athleticism are preserved over a lush coat or standard size and weight. The future shape of this breed is still very much in question and is largely dependant on whether working breeders will accept being marginalized or whether they can educate people to appreciate the breed for what it really is, a premier livestock working dog."

A brief opinion about a complex debate (which I tend to agree with for the most part) but needs to be more neutral. Dicussion? --Bcsr4ever 16:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the argument deserves an article on its own? I don't necessarily disagree with the theory given what AKC judging has done to German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, and Labradors in particular, but I don't believe that both sides are right either. AKC judges have a lot to answer for when you see Shepherds that can barely walk on twisted hind legs and Labs with unhealthy weight. What I do believe is that it has a place in mention on the Border Collie page, just not this pervasive thread running through every paragraph! What about other countries, by the way? The CKC in Canada doesn't recognize the breed - eliminating it from agility (foolishly in my view). What about Australia and Great Britain who have so much more claim to the working breed? --CMacMillan 03:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Border collies are only excluded from the CKC agility competions, not the more popular AAC competions Agility Association of Canada. Pure bred BCs in Canada are registered by the CBCA cmacd 20:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we need an entry explaining that the debate exits, something like:

===The Working versus Conformation Debate===

As with other working breeds, a division exists between registries promoting working ability and those promoting a conformation breed standard with accusations that breeding to a conformation standard will diminish the role of the breed in traditional livestock work since does not concetrate on intelligence and working ability. The future development of this breed will be influenced by which standards of breeding are most used and what activities Border collies will be involved in.

And then maybe point that to a separate article as suggested. This problem is not just with the BC, but with kelpies and other working breeds. As for Australia, there are working dogs and show dogs, but show dogs dominate as far as any registry goes. Farmers just have some dogs. For many years only purebred ANKC dogs could compete in ANKC dog sports (and that was the only game for a long time) in my state, so when we started in dog sports we selected and bred performance dogs (and working dogs) from ANKC lines. We use those dogs on a working cattle property and they do well if selected and bred for work, but generally the show dogs are bred for a quiet nature and way too fluffy coat. These days people do just breed ANKC dogs for performance (agility, etc) and they are less fluffy and more active, and of course many are bred (badly) just for the pet market, which is probably the worst thing for any working breed (or any breed). Anyway, now all states in Australia allow non-pedigree dogs to enter, so there are more of the non-fluffy and working types... --Bcsr4ever 07:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifying "Amusing" Removal

I removed this sentence:

It can be quite amusing to watch a border collie attempt to herd a handful of seagulls several hundred feet in the air.

I don't want to be too much of a stickler - and not that it's not amusing - but the sentence doesn't seem to have a place in an encyclopaedic article. CMacMillan 05:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed request for images

Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but I think there's PLENTY of images on this page now (perhaps too many?) so I removed the request for images. I added one specific to herding, and one illustrating the variation of look (a good-herding, gangly tri). Just a note on the appearance variation... I don't hold with the show line vs. herding line vs. agility line debate personally, but I also don't think all BCs need to be fluffy, 21 inches tall, deep chested, etc. CMacMillan 01:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

That's fine; when I added the request, there were no action photos here. Maybe we could shuffle some of the basic photos showing coat color variants to a <gallery> in the appearance section, as we've done for some other random dog articles here and there.

As for the debate--it exists. Whether any of us think it *should* exist is a different matter. Elf | Talk 03:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The gallery idea sounds good as long as we can avoid the "look at my cute dog" photo album thing.

And, yeah, the debate exists. It's really given my conformation/herding border collie some sleepless nights... oh, wait... our silly arguments don't even register ;) CMacMillan 04:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

BEST DOGS EVER' BORDIE COLLIES ARE THE BEST DOG YO COULD EVER HAVE. THE ARE SO GOOD WITH CHILDREN. THEY ARE SO ACTIVE. AT LEAST MINE IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MY DOG IS BETTER THEN YOURS HA! HA! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Er... okay. Sure. Whatever you say, there, exclamation girl. CMacMillan 00:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)