Talk:Bombing of Pforzheim in World War II

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the article was copied from page pforzheim. it should be on an own page, because it becomes larger and larger. -- 13:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC) Wega14

[edit] Verified

see Pforzheim and Bombing of Dresden in World War II --Walter Görlitz 21:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Some of the numbers can not be checked from the current reference.

• The number of German dead is not mentioned in the RAF page.
• The details of the dammage are not mentioned.
• The number of planes lost in the raid is not mentioned instead the RAF report "Total effort for the night: 666 sorties, 17 aircraft (2.6 per cent) lost.
• The tonnage of bombs can be confirmed but not the number of bombs.

I removed the direct link to Dresden in the text because there were a number of large raids betweem them, (this was industrial scale bombing): 14th Chemnitz: 499 aircraft; 17th,18th,18 Wesel: 298,160,168 aircraft; 19th Böhlen: 260; 20th Dortmund 528; 21st Duisburg 373, and Worms: 349; 23rd Essen 342 and many more smaller raids. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

the source is on the german page available. (http://www.bombenkrieg.historicum.net/themen/pforzheim.html) It should be controlled by somebody, which can read german. the source on german page is controlled by: (in english I found no source like that, sorry)

Prof. Dr. Gudrun Gersmann Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4352 gudrun.gersmann@uni-koeln.de

Prof. Dr. Hubertus Kohle Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Institut für Kunstgeschichte Georgenstr. 7 D-80799 München Tel.: +49 (0)89/21805317 Fax : +49 (0)89/21805316 Hubertus.Kohle@lrz.uni-muenchen.de http://www.fak09.uni-muenchen.de/Kunstgeschichte

Sabine Büttner Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4353 sabine.buettner@uni-koeln.de --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wega14 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/ does a good job of translating the page here are some of the relevent points:

• The first air raid on the city was flown on 1 April 1944 by US-American bombers. Further followed this first attack with comparatively small damage and 95 victims, consequence-fraughtest those in the holy evening of the yearly 1944 and on 21 January 1945.
• The railway and roads passing through Pforzheim were being used to transport troops and armaments. The analysis by the RAF issued on 28 June 1944 said Pforzheim was "one of the centres of the German jewellery and watch making trade and is therefore likely ton have become OF considerable importance into the production OF precision instrument". The industry of the city was not intergreted into spacious factories outside of the city centre but in numerous small busnesses in the centre. It was mentioned in "Guide of the Importance of German Towns and Cities", pubished in Germany in August 1944, said "almost every house in this town center is a small workshop".
• Altogether 368 machines flew one of the consequence-fraughtest attacks of the Second World War and established in only 22 minutes of bombs in the total weight of 1575 tons on the gold city.
• two thirds of the city were destroyed, to the city area related lie the ratio between 80 and 100 per cent. 1939 of still 4112 adjacents resident registered, here nobody lived goods in the city area "market place" more after February 1945 on years.
• 23 of February 1945 in Pforzheim proceeds from 17.600 air-war-dead. The last Vorkriegsvolkszaehlung had resulted in a population of approximately 79,000 humans in May 1939. Thus approximately a fifth of the total population died.
• A list of the labour office of 1942 spoke of 2980 foreigners in Pforzheim. The exact number on 23 February of the forced laborers from the foreign country, died, cannot be determined any longer.

--Philip Baird Shearer 22:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add from that source:

• There were very probably war-relevant goals, war-crucially probably was none. Nevertheless also COMMAND was conscious to the British bomber and its Commanders-in-Chief Arthur T. Harris took in purchase that beside the industriellen goals inevitably residential buildings were met.
• For the first time the city had emerged in November 1944 on a goal list of the allied air war strategists. She had belonged there to a selection of cities, to which on a five-stage scale the smallest priority was granted, which however for surface attacks are suitable became, because transportation facilities led by closely cultivated, fire-susceptible city. The railway facilities and roads actually served Pforzheims of the transfer and shift of troops and armaments. The fine-mechanical industry had changed over to a large extent since 1942 to arms production, which quite admits to the British and American decision makers was.

Wega14 23:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

Dropped the tag on because

1. wouldn't hurt to have some more wiki-linking in
2. poor quality English - certainly in some sections

GraemeLeggett 17:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

AFAICT it was an Altavista translation. I have now integrated what I thought worth keeping of the text into the main section and deleted the translation. The facts and figures which are still in text of the article, that I could not verify from the given references in the reference section, were imported from the Pforzheim page which contains the following at the end of the history section:

(Remark: This brief history is partly based on the German language brief history included in the Web site of the City of Pforzheim, a series of articles in Pforzheimer Zeitung during the first three months of 2005 published on the occasion of the 60th commemoration of Pforzheim's bombardment, and the book: Hans-Peter Becht: Pforzheim in der fruehen Neuzeit, Pforzheimer Geschichtsblaetter 7, Jan Thorbecke Verlag, Sigmaringen, 1989. The author M.H.)

It needs someone with access to these references to check them and add the necessary footnotes to the text. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Philip, ones and ones again, you give the sentence another meaning, as it had in the source. That isn't very exact work. sorry. Wega14 13:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by the last comment. The differences seem to be more style than substance[1]/ --Philip Baird Shearer 17:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:not verified

There are still a number of facts given in this article which are not in the current written sources, or have not been identified as the sources. As the figures and some of the other statment do not seem unreasonable it would be a shame to removed them just because there is no source given , so for the moment I have placed the not verified template on the top in the hope that someone can come up with the original sources and add them to the notes. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

there are a lot of sources, but offline, written in tons of books, all german. How should that be brought to the net? Wega14 00:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi, I am the guy who ported most of the German Wikipedia article on Pforzheim to the English version, except for the history section, which I put together more or less from scratch based on all kinds of sources. I also wrote the air raid section without quoting sources, which eventually caused this mess. I am sorry for that, but it happens that I am very short of time, and doing it right is very, very time-consuming. But as you got so excited about it, I finally included most of the sources, not all yet. Of course, they are in German, but at least most of them can be accessed on the internet. So, you may choose to trust me (but can I really be trusted ? After all, I was one of those kids who spent their childhood playing in the rubble left by that air raid ! ) and eventually remove that sticker on the page, or you may not, in which case you will have to find some friends whom you can trust and who speak German well enough to understand the sources. Make your choice, but, please, do not eliminate my sources only because they are not in English. And by the way: I have a little more to say about the subject of "reasons for the raid" without any hard feelings, however I have to concentrate now on a multitude of issues at least until the middle of March and must delay those comments until then. In the meantime, thanks for your efforts and keep up the good work.

With my best wishes from Japan (no longer Pforzheim since early 80s but still caring very much for that heap of rubble on Wallberg), Hild 15:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the "Template:not verified" as it seems to me that with the work people have put in since I put it there this article now reaches the standard of verification that few other Wikipedia articles manage. Well done everyone it has been a pleasure working on this page with you. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)