Talk:Bleach (manga)

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Archive
Archives
  1. April 2005 — September 2005
  2. September 2005 — March 2006
  3. April 2006 — September 2006

Contents

[edit] A standardization reminder

Since all our standardization topics have been archived, here is a summary of what the past discussions have resulted in:

We use shinigami (as opposed to Death God, Soul Reaper, Angel of Death, Reaper, etc.) We do not capitalize shinigami, hollow, plus, zanpakutō, etc. We do capitalize Soul Society though. Quincy seems to be a grey area, since the Quincy article uses caps almost exclusively and it was never decided one way or the other. It's lieutenant, not vice-captain. We are using the english naming conventions for characters, given name first. It's also Bleach, not BLEACH.

If I got any of these wrong, please point out the error. This is supposed to be a sort of mini-FAQ, so feel free to add to it. --tjstrf 07:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


As the talk page is getting on towards 120KB, I'm about to make a new archive. Assorted new decisions:
1) It's Bleach (manga), not Bleach (anime).
2) Correct character spellings include Bount (pl. Bounts), Yammy, and Luppi.
3) The onmitsukidō is to be referred to as "special forces."
4) The main characters on the page are listed in the order of their appearance.
5) Soul Reaper vs. shinigami is unresolved, but we use shinigami since it remains the more common usage.
6) There will be rigorous fact-checking of new additions to the page.
7) Finestela has proposed a citation format as follows ("The 1-999 is the page number(s) for citation").

  • Kubo, Tite (2006). Bleach Official Character Book Souls. Tokyo, Japan: Shueisha, 1-999. ISBN 4088740793
  • Kubo, Tite (2006). Bleach Official Animation Book Vibes. Tokyo, Japan: Shueisha, 1-999. ISBN 4088740807
  • Kubo, Tite (2002). Japanese Version Bleach Vol. 1. Tokyo, Japan: Shueisha, 1-999. ISBN 4088732138

Dekimasu 07:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be SOULs and VIBEs, which is what appears on the actual covers. This is not the same case as BLEACH because it's in all-caps to be inline with Japanese text, while 'Character Book SOULs' is not all-caps therefore there may be meaning to the capitalization. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
As far as that goes, both of the titles technically have periods in them, too, and OFFICIAL CHARACTER BOOK is shown in all caps. I don't think the capitalization is significant, though. Dekimasu 21:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headings

Now that the revert wars from the American release have died down a bit, I wanted to bring up an idea on the page flow. I think the page would benefit from having fewer subheadings in this kind of fashion, resulting in a smaller table of contents and a more legible page. It's also the format that "good article"-classified pages use. Something similar could be done to the races section. Just a basic mockup now. Thoughts? (mockup refactored by poster as unnecessary. changes can be seen on the main page) Dekimasu 08:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

By all means. Those sub-headers are left-overs of an earlier stage, when most of those places did not yet have their own articles, and hence had more detailed sections. --tjstrf 14:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Finished quite a bit of work on this section (not here, on the main page). I'm happy with how it's going. Maybe it would benefit from a picture of, say, Soul Society? Races is a bit harder to refashion without the headings because some of the sections are a bit long. Comments welcome. Jump in because I don't want it to seem like I'm claiming the page. Dekimasu 10:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Finished reworking the races section, which involved a bit of editing things out. Here's a summary of the biggest ones that people might dispute, and my reasons:

  • as evidenced by Chad and Orihime --> overdetailed for an overview of the manga
  • In the case of a human soul removed from a body that isn't dead, this chain is tied to the person's body. --> not bad information in and of itself, but the first sentence says that a plus is the spirit of someone who has died.
  • moved information on balance between worlds to the settings section. this also shortened the plus section into one paragraph for the refactoring.
  • When captain- or lieutenant-rank shinigami travel to the human world, their power level is limited to 20% of their usual strength to avoid causing unnecessary influence or chaos. They must ask Soul Society for permission to "lift the limit" if they need to release their full power while in the human world. i really don't think that's one of the five or six most important things we can say about the shinigami. this, again, shortened the shinigami section into a manageable paragraph for the refactoring.
  • removed references to character names in the Quincy section to make it more of an overview (links to the main article anyway).
  • moved the hollow section above the one for modified souls. this puts the sections in order of appearance like the characters, and the hollows have a very high importance anyway.
  • former Gotei 13, 5th Division Captain --> while there is a spoiler tag, i don't think we need to give up the biggest spoiler in the series. this way it's a little more vague while still being informative.

Other changes were small. I added a sentence about who the Shinigami are (please check for veracity) and changed wording in some other situations. Again, comments welcome. The page flow is nice, though. Dekimasu 10:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The infobox is annoyingly long, and destroys the section formatting now. I've messed around with it for about 12 minutes, but can't get that Ichigo image to fit in without wrecking the page formatting. Is there some way to show/hide the publisher info so that it doesn't do that? --tjstrf 08:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I have an idea. It's been bothering me for a while anyway that there are no summaries of the main character pages, only links. There should be a blurb for each of the main characters just as there is a blurb for each of the character types and each of the locations. If there were ~5 sentences on Ichigo and each of the other main characters, the picture would fit perfectly next to his character summary. The characters are already summarized on many of the pages in other languages (the Spanish ones look really appropriate... if only I spoke Spanish). I could run one of them through babelfish and clean them up, I suppose. The page as it stands is under 20KB so making the page too long isn't an issue. Dekimasu 09:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I thought of that myself, but I think it would be easier to simply remove the image of Ichigo. It's sort of out of place anyway. Placing one or two sentence character summaries for them would be a good idea, if you could come up with something that succinct. --tjstrf 09:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I hate babelfish after all. Here's a sample of the translation. "Rukia Kuchiki: Rukia is one of the co-protagonists of the series. Sometimes it can be fries and other times it can get to risk his own life to save to somebody. It was sent to the Earth to face hollow and is from here that is developed the history of Bleach. They enchant the rabbits to him and it draws them whenever it has the opportunity. His brother is Byakuya Kuchiki and he unites a great bow to him to him." Still, would something this length be too long? Dekimasu 09:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Never use babel fish. I speak a decent amount of spanish so I'll work on translating it now. Malevious 13:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"Ichigo is the protagonist of the series. he has a very (somthing) and cold personality and somthing somthing social. in contrast to this, he is very protective of his family and friends who he would put his life on the line for without thinking. since he was little, he posessed the capacity to see spirits which makes him have a life out of the ordinary." Thats the best i could get some words i think are slang so i dunno what the mean, i think pasota means passonate or something but im not sure. Malevious 14:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)



Just so u no its shinigami soul reaper is a dumbed down vertion. for ppl like me.

[edit] Category name change?

I think the main Bleach category should be renamed to Category:Bleach (manga) to match this article. Also because typing (manga/anime) is annoying. Any objections? Please reply at Category talk:Bleach (manga/anime) to avoid fragmenting the discussion. --tjstrf 21:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've suggested a similar name change for standardization at Talk:Characters in Bleach series, related to the Characters in Bleach series and Hollows in Bleach series pages. Please take a look at that as well. Dekimasu 02:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox show/hide function, data and opinion collection

There is an optional field of the anime infobox (Template:Infobox animanga/Manga) that allows you to list the foreign publishers in a hidden field with a show/hide tag to reduce its length. However, in it's default form (viewable here) the text is too small for most people to see. I have attempted to fix this, and am currently transcluding one of my user subpages so that I don't have to mess with the main infobox.

For me, the infobox views perfectly. However, User:Dekimasu says that he still can't read the text in the box, and raised a couple other concerns as well. So I am asking for wider input here. I have two questions:

  1. Does the infobox text show up at a legible size for you? (also, what browser and Wikipedia skin do you use?)
  2. Is the show/hide field in the infobox a good idea?

Thanks in advance. For the record, I'm using Monobook (default skin) with Opera and Internet Explorer, and the infobox works. --tjstrf 10:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Everything is working fine for me. Its legible and im using the default skin and FireFox i believe 1.8 (what ever the most up to date one is) Malevious 23:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Even when you expand the publishers? I am running FireFox and the default skin but when I expand the publishers it is reducing the text size as though the contents are under a subheading. Dekimasu 01:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Works fine for me too, FF 1.0.5.7, WinXPpro sp2, Monobook.--Anaraug 01:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Personally I don't mind if I can't read them, but since the page is really for people who don't know anything about Bleach and not for us, let me know what other settings info I can give you to try to figure out what's happening. Dekimasu 01:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Not a clue why it isnt working right for you, and it is kinda important for you to read it, cuz if you can't that means other people might have the same problem. not that knowing who publishes it will be too helpfull to anyone lol Malevious 02:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: "correcting anon's edit to remove the line-wrap by removing unrequired word"... wasn't necessary for me, text is still so small that it didn't wrap! Dekimasu 06:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Can someone update the box? Episode 107 is out.

[edit] "Bleach" = "Burichi"

Has anyone ever explained about the Japanese obsession with pseudo-english Words, which are all but impossible to write in Kana? I think that might deserve an article to itself, if there isn't one already. Certainly the Bleach-article should link there. (The article "Engrish" touches this subject a bit, but it doesn't really hit what I'm getting at.) --BjKa 09:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm just a bit curious on what you're trying to accomplish with your proposal... I mean this is merely a result of a language system in Japan where they attempt to assimilate foreign vocabularies into their own. It also serves as a way for them to directly take a word (phonetically) and write them in katakana for publication purposes.
I mean even Americans does this all the time with words from European and Asian countries... it's merely a way for us to cope with this multi-langual world we have today. -- Finestela 18:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
English is seen as a very trendy language in Japan, and most are able to at least somewhat read English words phonetically. It's not uncommon to see English words on clothing (such as the word "BOY" on Ranma's bathing suit). In other cases, the words are borrowed from English because an author likes the sound of the word. Akira Toriyama is particurly well known for deriving terms from English. Many other langauges are also borrowed from in this manner. I've seen German and Spanish quite a bit, especially in Bleach.
As for the the poor transliterations, this has more to do with the language itself. Specifically, Japanese speak in mora instead of syllables. That said, Burīchi might not be as bad as you'd think. The u is silent and the i at the end can be destressed or omitted. The ī is sounds almost identically to the "ea" of "Bleach". The only real problem is the r/l sound. They have a similar sound that falls somewhere in the middle. –Gunslinger47 19:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, you might expect that it would be, but in practice the u isn't silent here. They don't usually go silent unless they're at the end of the word. As for burīchi, it's not just on loan for the name of the comic. It's a real loan word. We could just as well start complaining about pseudo being used in English. Dekimasu 07:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Well we're off on this topic, how can you tell when the Us are not supposed to be pronounced? It sounds like suki, for example, is pronouced as the English word Ski. Such as in Tatski, and also perhaps in zanpaktō and the like. If the Us are being pronouced, they are certainly very quiet. –Gunslinger47 05:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
It's true that the U is almost wholly elided in "suki," but it's really not in "Tatsuki." It's also not elided in "zanpakutō." That might seem very confusing, but I think it's partially a result of how casual you are willing to be with your language. There's a saying, "tade kuu mushi mo sukizuki," (~equal to "there's no accounting for taste") in which the U is fully elocuted twice (possibly to sound more literate); it's also pronounced in "sukiyaki" (and you have to be polite to food, as in "osake"). Anyone who is being formal in their speech will also pronounce the U in "suki." Likewise, people who are being formal in their speech will sometimes pronounce the word-final U sound in "gozaimasu," "desu," "arimasu," etc.
I think one of the biggest issues is the length of the mora, which must be complete in correct speech (an N mora without a vowel gets the same "mouth time" as a KA or HO). In verb-final SU elision, like the normal pronunciation of any -masu form, removing the U allows the sentences to be more clearly separated, as the S is given more "mouth time" and effectively marks the end of the thought. This seems to carry over into elision of the SU in other positions in words, even to the point of shortening the mora that it was so important to draw out before (making, effectively, "suki" into a single mora), but the same type of elision isn't usually used when dealing with the TSU mora, the KU mora, etc.
I can't tell you that my impression is correct based on any references, but upon reflection I believe that this is what I do when I speak. Dekimasu 06:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. It's also worth noting that the U in the final SU is not normally elided in plain-form verbs ("kasu," "tasu," "dasu," "sasu," etc.). Couldn't tell you why. I don't think I could if I kept thinking about it, either. (>_<) Dekimasu 06:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defining a Spoiler

I think we need to define exactly what counts as a spoiler. I propose that something only qualifies as a spoiler if it was meant to be a secret at the time that it was eventually revealed. Facts that take time to be revealed simply because Kubo hadn't gotten around to it before then should not be considered spoilers. For the moment, I'm going to avoid discussing plot spoilers and stick just to fact spoilers. –Gunslinger47 00:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

Here is a list of spoiler facts. Feel free to comment or add spoilers.

Sōsuke Aizen is a traitor, Gin and Tōsen too
This is an obvious spoiler. Any text on Wikipedia that mentions it, or mentions Aizen's activities past the Recovery arc should be inside of spoiler tags. That said, mentioning Aizen should be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary. –Gunslinger47
Kisuke Urahara sold Rukia a power-siphoning gigai
There was never a sudden revealation for this, but it is a secret kept for practically the entire anime series, pre-filler. –Gunslinger47
Isshin Kurosaki is/was a shinigami
At the moment, anyone who goes to his page has a chance of seeing the zanpakutō subsection, spoiler tag or not. This is rather dangerous for new readers. –Gunslinger47
Ikkaku Madarame can use bankai
Knowing this in advance could spoil Ikkaku's battle against Edward. –Gunslinger47
Sajin Komamura is a giant, anthropomorphic fox
A minor spoiler, but technically it was a secret, not revealed until well after his initial appearance. Currently, if you go to his page, this fact is not hidden and his furry mug is prominently displayed as the corner picture. –Gunslinger47
Yoruichi, the black cat, is actually a woman
Another minor spoiler, and for a somewhat short span, but care should be taken so new readers don't stumble upon the truth. Simply not linking to Yoruichi's page when talking in a pre-revelation context should be sufficient. Currently the episode summary of episode 18 has such a link. –Gunslinger47 00:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Something to do with the Bount, I wasn't paying attention ^_^
Whatever it is, it seems pretty critical to the plot and should probably be guarded closely. –Gunslinger47
Hmm. That their creator is still alive? Dekimasu 15:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Byakuya Kuchiki wanted to save Rukia from execution.
Dekimasu
Or more specifically, Rukia is actually the sister of Byakuya's dead wife. They should probably be referred to as brother and sister outside of spoiler tags, and Byakuya's feelings towards Rukia should be avoided if possible. –Gunslinger47 20:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Grimmjow Jaggerjack led his assault on Karakura against orders.
Dekimasu
This is a plot-based spoiler, in that it hasn't happened yet from certain perspectives. Detailed plot should only be placed inside of spoilers tags, regardless of if it's the first episode or the last chapter. –Gunslinger47 20:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Spoilers end here.

I agree with your approach philosophically. In practice, I stay away from certain pages on the recent chapters of the manga (I generally haven't read past the end of the last published Japanese tankobon, although I've read some individual chapters after that in my Shonen Jumps). People should have the common sense to do that if they don't want to know what happens. On the other hand, if there is something that's a significant unexpected plot element (not necessarily a spoiler by your definition) unrelated to the article topic, I think it should be noted. For example, if I want to go read about Zaraki Kenpachi and I find out ahead of time that he has killed Ichinose, I might be a little upset. In that sense, I think we should be more careful of actual plot spoilers while being as careless as possible about background "spoilers" (for instance, everything on this page [outside of a prospective plot summary] with the exception of Aizen's name). Dekimasu 15:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, now. Plot spoilers are quite different than spoilers about facts. An example of something that sits outside of the plot is Rukia's sword. A new reader might be interested to read that when released, her zanpakutō turns pure white and whatnot. This was not revealed until later in the manga, but was not really part of the plot. Nor was it a secret. On the other hand, as mentioned above, describing the final release of Ikkaku's zanpakutō could potentially spoil his battle with Edward. It was certainly plot critical and was kept secret from almost all of the other shinigami.
I think all plot information should be kept inside its own section, with a sub-section, or otherwise obvious break for plot that occurs after the end of the anime. Facts that imply future plot events, such as a character being currently dead, should probably be kept inside spoiler tags as well. –Gunslinger47 20:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything on the page now that really requires a spoiler tag. Revealing the existence of the vizard or the arrancar or Urahara's mod souls doesn't really say what they have to do with the story, and I would suggest they are not spoilers. I would go so far as to say that there are only two plot spoilers in the whole article, and they are the number of Quincy and the fact that the Bount were created by the shinigami. I think the spoiler tag could be removed entirely until a plot summary goes into the article. Dekimasu 08:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a problem with removing the spoiler tags from the article as it now stands? Dekimasu 01:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with it. –Gunslinger47 01:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

I'm moving it to Bleach (series) because it's not just a manga and it shouldn't be all that controversial Voretus the Benevolent 07:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I apologize, but I've reverted this move. Going to "What links here" for Bleach (manga) shows several hundred pages that would have to be editted. Ryūlóng 08:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Aside from the hundreds of double redirects this created, it was already discussed and decided as shown in the standardization reminder above. The discussion is in archive 3. Not that previous discussions are set in stone, but you can see that some thought has gone into the page title. Dekimasu 08:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Here is the discussion: Talk:Bleach (manga)/Archive 3#Bleach (manga) vs. Bleach (series) –Gunslinger47 20:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
To be honest i dont see any conclusion or decision being made in that archive. The debate just stops. I think mabey we should have a final vote and what ever wins, wins and thats the end of it. Even if it means editing 500 articals. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 01:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's not a democracy. We discussed it and there was no consensus either way, thus we defaulted to not moving it. –Gunslinger47 02:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Also note that "Article introductions should be primarily about the first format of a work (usually manga) and not about the most popular format of that work (usually anime). For example: Bleach is a manga series, that was later adapted into an anime series", NOT Bleach is an anime series, based on a manga of the same name. In cases where title disambiguation is necessary, a similar guideline should be followed." from the anime and manga project page. Dekimasu 02:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, when we're the example used for a rule, we probably shouldn't decide to violate that rule. --tjstrf talk 02:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orihime's brother

Is his name Sora in the English-language manga? Or is he Kakei in both English-language versions? WhisperToMe 21:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: Anime News Network lists Liam O'Brien as "Sora Inoue" - Is this a mistake? WhisperToMe 21:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

He was called Sora in both episodes so I guess the dub did not use the manga name (Kakei). Gdo01 22:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Odd, so the manga calls him Kakei but the anime doesn't? That is so odd. I guess VIZ made up a name since the actual name had not been revealed yet. I guess that kinda backfired. WhisperToMe 23:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I noted a while back that "Sora Inoue" was one of the redirects to Characters in Bleach and I was a little surprised... especially since it appears to be the name of a character in a different manga and all of the links were to that instead of Bleach. Silly VIZ. Dekimasu 00:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if they will edit the latest printings to rename him to Sora? WhisperToMe
VIZ isn't known for being good about things like that. Under what circumstances did the English manga and anime have to reveal his first name anyway, when the originals didn't? This after people were complimenting the dub on its respect for Japanese naming issues. Dekimasu 02:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
In Japanese, younger siblings call older ones "brother" or "Sister" - this meant that originally Orihime's brother had no name. WhisperToMe 02:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

(porting from User talk:Dekimasu) When a younger sibling addresses an older sibling in Japanese, he or she calls him or her "honorable older brother" or "honorable older sister" - I.E. Orihime called her brother "Brother" in the Japanese originals. VIZ did not want to have Orihime call her brother "brother" all the time, so VIZ had to make up a name for him. WhisperToMe 02:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That's what I'm objecting to. If they wished to maintain the original flavor they wouldn't have subverted the "older brother" denotation (and I don't feel like san has as such an "honorable" connotation here, since it's more something said by convention). "Big brother" is in standard English usage and having Orihime say it would have reinforced her somewhat childlike image. I don't think they had to do it. Dekimasu 02:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Meh, it doesn't matter. VIZ may fix it now that the dub's out though, considering their odd willingness to screw up Zoro->Zolo in order to match the anime. --tjstrf 03:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Kakei is just a mistake by Viz in reading the kanji for the name Sora.
No - 1. All names have furigana in most shonen books. That means that they know that it says "Sora" - Also, the note for Sora mentioned a guidebook; I.E. the name was not revealed when the character first appeared. WhisperToMe 04:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The name Kakei was taken from the first character poll, where it had 'Kakei (Orihime's Brother)'. I believe Viz believed that to be the correct name until it was later revealed to be Sora.

[edit] Renji -- Add to main characters?

I believe that Renji should probably be considered a main character alongside Ichigo, Rukia, Orihime, Chad, and Ishida at this point. He's gotten nearly the same amount of screentime as Ichigo (certainly more than poor neglected Chad has) ever since his introduction, had character development, and now is a part of the new rescue party. I realize this may kick up a bit of opposition from slippery slope arguers, but it's really a fact now in the series, why not acknowledge it? (And no, I don't believe we need to expand the list to include Hitsugaya, at least not yet) --tjstrf 06:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I could support Renji, but not by himself. It is indeed slippery and subjective. Personally I think Kon should be added as a central member of the group of protagonists. He was around when we barely knew anything about Soul Society, just like the other "main characters." Urahara has also been highly involved over time. That's my limit.
The Spanish page has Renji and Kon in addition to the characters we list now; Italian is the same as ours; French lists ours plus Kon; Finnish has ours plus Urahara; Portuguese adds Renji, Kon, Aizen, Hitsugaya, Yoruichi, and Urahara. So there's a survey. Dekimasu 07:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Kon hasn't done much since his introduction though. He's comic relief, but doesn't really even participate in the main storyline anymore. He would have been a major character at the beginning, but after they left for SS, he's pretty much been deprecated. Aizen shouldn't be on the list for spoilery reasons, Urahara I have no opinion about. --tjstrf 16:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of the "main characters" section, as I understand it, is to serve newer readers. As such, I believe it's best to just list the human Ryoka, plus Rukia. A more ideal solution, in my opinion, would be to merge the "Main characters" and "Races" section into one "Characters" section. The divide by "races" always seemed strange to me, as everyone (except possibly modsouls) are ultimately human, more or less. –Gunslinger47 18:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Renji is a Ryoka in the Heuco Mundo arc, since iirc Ryoka refers to intruders. The purpose of the races section is to define all of the different soul classes. They may all be human, but they are all quite different. --tjstrf 18:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
About the "main characters" and "races," I had thought about merging them into one "characters" section, with an intro and subheaded into "main characters" and "character types." I think it would be difficult to merge them entirely, however. As for who the article is for, I agree that the people reading it would lean towards newer readers, and it should serve them as much as possible (this would seem to argue for including Kon), but one of the goals is still to be encyclopedic. If Renji is a main character, I think he has to go into the section. Dekimasu 20:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The VIZ site lists Kon as a main character. If you go to the larger list you can see that Urahara, Yoruichi, and Renji are farther down the main character list as shadows. I can't figure out who the last two boxes are supposed to be. Dekimasu 09:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The other shadows appear to be Aizen and Gin, not really sure on Aizen though. --tjstrf 22:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Humans Section

I temporarily took out the new "humans" section. I feel like this is covered in the introduction to the section and the rest of the material is too detailed for the series overview. Also, I don't think it's really true that most people accept the existence of ghosts in Bleach. The Kurosakis never talk to anyone outside of their family about seeing ghosts. I think Don Kanonji's television show is supposed to be popular in the same way Alien Autopsy is popular... as entertainment, not as truth. Here's what I removed... let's talk about it. "The humans of Bleach are much like those in a modern, non-fictional setting. They primarily differ in their wider acceptance of spiritual beings such as ghosts. One in 150,000 humans have at least some perception of nearby ghosts, though only a relative few, known as mediums, are able to perceive well enough to hold conversations. The best known medium is Don Kanonji, who hosts a television show where he interacts with ghosts. At the height of its popularity, it was regularly watched by 25% of the Japanese population. Despite all of this, human understanding of the spiritual world is somewhat limited. Only small groups such as the Quincy ever knew of the eternal conflict between shinigami and the hollows, but they have all but disappeared in the modern age." Dekimasu 04:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, is there a distinction between a plus and a spirit? Your ghosts section calls pluses souls that haven't been buried, where the old one called them the spirits of humans who have died. Aren't residents of Soul Society also pluses? And did you choose the word "ghosts" so that it wouldn't be a choice between "plus" and "whole," or was there another reason? Generally I think the new section reads better, but I'm confused why the title is changed. Dekimasu 05:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Reflecting this, I've tried "Ghosts in Bleach are known as pluses (Wholes in the official English editions). A plus is the disembodied spirit of a person who has died. A plus has a spiritual body composed of reishi that resembles its material body at the time of death. A chain, known as the Chain of Fate (因果の鎖 inga no kusari?), protrudes from the chest and binds the soul to a location, object or person that they felt close to in life. The soul can move about freely if the chain is broken, but this also causes the chain to corrode. Normally, pluses are sent to Soul Society by shinigami in a ritual called soul burial (魂葬 konsō?). However, if the Chain of Fate is corroded entirely before a soul burial can be performed, a hole will form in the chest of the spirit where the chain was once anchored. Such souls are driven mad and become spiritual monsters known as hollows. If the Chain of Fate is torn out deliberatly, this also leads to spiritual degradation." I also incorporated some of the edits into the introduction (about reishi), because in retrospect, I think some of the explanation was repetitive and could be explained fully in the introduction. Let me know what you think. Dekimasu 06:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, I think the lead and the introduction are a little strange at the moment. It would be good to incorporate more of the intro into the lead and replace the intro with at least a cursive plot summary that doesn't reveal the endings to each (unofficial) arc. The plot summary is preferred to an introduction by WP:MANGA, although here I think it should probably go after the characters and setting sections so that it would make more sense. I've been translating the plot summaries from the Japanese page at User:Dekimasu/Sandbox without changing the content of them at all. Let me know if you have any suggestions for me on that. Dekimasu 06:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, this is a lot to go over. I'll explain my overarching motives. I'd like to see the "Character types" section turned into a "Characters" section, with the subdivisions logically denoting different types of characters. Characters worth a short overview, the "main characters" would be at the top. This leads into why I added the Human subsection. The humans subsection was meant to replace the content in the current introduction.
Next... Hmm, I think I'll make a new subject regarding the plus/whole/spirit/soul/ghost situation, and explain how I see it.
Onto the humans and their acceptance of ghosts. It seems you're right. I can find no incontestable evidence. This was just the general impression I had from viewing the series, but moreso, it worked well with the paragraph and lead into all the things I wanted to mention about humans. It probably needs to be reworded. I think something needs to be said about human and their relationship to the spiritual world. It's too bad not much is said on the subject. –Gunslinger47 06:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with you that the section should be ==Characters==, followed by ===Main characters=== and ===Character types===. I think the lead to the ==Characters== section should deal with the series in as much an out-of-universe perspective as possible... for example, discussing how characters are used (redemption of "evil" characters as a theme, high level of character development in the series because the same characters are used throughout, etc.). Dekimasu 06:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plus/Whole/Spirit/Soul/Ghost

I think we need to clear up a few things. This is how I understand it:

  • All beings are souls.
  • Human bodies contain a soul. They are chained together during life.
  • A soul outside its original body in the real world is called a spirit.
  • Hollows are evil souls of dead humans. In the real world, this makes them "evil spirits"
  • As for pluses, Rukia explains it best, I believe:
    "One is called a plus and is the most common spirit. You can say that the 'ghosts' you usually see are these."
  • Specifically, the term seems to refer to dead souls who still have their chains anchored to their chests.
  • Shinigami perform a soul burial on pluses/wholes/ghosts, sending them to Soul Society.
  • In soul society, they are no longer referred to as ghosts/pluses/spirits, they are simply "souls".

Regarding the Plus/Whole term. We have never heard this used outside of Rukia's explanations. This is what led me to believe that it is either a technical term, or a shinigami term. Humans obviously call them "ghosts". I believe this is the term we should use as well. –Gunslinger47 06:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The character book says １死した人間の魂魄；２’ユウレイ’の総称 for pluses (1, the souls of dead humans; 2, a general term for ghosts), which seems to leave it up in the air. But no one ever says that soul burial turns a "plus" into a "spirit" either. The Japanese page for Bleach says that all souls that aren't hollows (ホロウに堕ちていない、通常の霊魂) are pluses, and that 死者の魂 (the souls of dead humans) live in Soul Society. The problem here is konpaku (霊魂, spirit) vs tamashii (魂, soul). The Japanese page makes clear that these terms can be used interchangeably (魂魄、いわゆる魂, spirits, in other words souls). I think you're right that all beings are souls. I think all good souls (including living humans, shinigami, etc.) are pluses, and all evil souls (hollows) are "minuses." I still think that residents of Soul Society are pluses.
If that's the case, then it does make more sense to use the term "ghosts" to distinguish the kind of souls we're talking about in that section from all the other kinds of pluses, and the pluses/hollows distinction should be made in the lead to the character types section. How does that sound? Dekimasu 07:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
It also makes the case that the distinction between character types that we should talk about in the introduction isn't human vs. spirit, but good soul vs. bad soul. Dekimasu 07:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

All right, now I'm distinctly unsatisfied with what we used to have. I'm not really satisfied with what we have now, either. (>_<) Dekimasu 12:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"But no one ever says that soul burial turns a "plus" into a "spirit" either."
That's not exactly what I meant. Let's see if I can lay it out in a more logical form:
  • soul - everyone is/has a soul
  • human - soul in living body
  • ghost - soul with no body in the real world
  • spirit - same as ghost (Rukia's perfered term when speaking casually, see ep.02)
  • plus - good ghost/spirit
  • hollow - evil ghost/spirit
  • soul society occupants - souls–

Gunslinger47 20:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's
  • soul - everyone is a soul (that's why the character book is named like it is, too). This is represented by both tamashii and konpaku.
  • human - soul in living body
  • spirit - same as soul, only appears as a translation artifact as a synonym for spirit and when Don Kanonji is talking

::* plus - good soul, maybe with no body (not sure)

  • hollow - evil soul with no body
  • soul society occupants - souls with no body
"Ghost" is only used by Ichigo's family in reference to what they see, because they don't have any idea what it is that they're seeing. I am guessing that when Rukia says "spirit" in English in episode 2, it's at the place outside the park when she says rei in the second manga chapter. This is when she's talking to Ichigo in the terms he uses and I don't think she ever says it again. Dekimasu 00:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been thinking about this more and reading the Japanese page and looking through my Secrets of Bleach book and I think I have a better handle on this now. Soul and spirit are exactly equal, so the dichotomy in the introduction is false (humans have souls too). On the other hand, the term plus is used for "a soul that hasn't become a hollow" and I can't find it used in any instances outside of what we're now calling "ghost." It seems to me like we should use that term for the section header to distinguish "pluses" ("good ghosts") from the "hollows" ("bad ghosts"). The part in the shinigami section where it says shinigami are recruited from the ranks of pluses should be changed to souls. Any place we have "spirit" could just as well be changed to "soul." Dekimasu 07:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried a little cleanup, but you're right that a humans section needs to go in now. The problem is that it's really a "normal humans" section - a "humans that aren't Quincy, Bounts, or Ichigo" section, and we don't really need to put a lot of information there. Dekimasu 08:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of what I said about spirit and soul being equal (I still think they are), it looks a lot better writing "spirit" than how many times I stuck "disembodied soul" in the article. Sigh. Dekimasu 08:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you considered that spirit merits use simply for grammatical reasons such as avoiding redundancy? --tjstrf 21:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fair that spirit should refer to every incorporeal being (plus, shinigami, hollow, etc.) as we have no other general word to describe this. As the previous version (a week+ ago) said, there are two main beings in Bleach - humans and spirits. They are further divided into humans/Quincy/Bounts/modsouls vs. pluses/shinigami/hollows. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 01:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It read better, but I think it was a dichotomy constructed only for the purposes of the article. I suppose we could have a subheader of "humans" (followed by an intro and the bullet descriptions of the Quincy and the Bount), and a subheader of "spirits" (followed by an intro and the bullet descriptions of pluses, shinigami, hollows, and modsouls), but I don't think it should be articulated in the text. And I think the comment that all characters are souls should stay. Modsouls should go on the same side as shinigami because they both use gigai to go over to the human side - shouldn't they? Dekimasu 03:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the current edit is better than before in terms of getting information across, it just doesn't sound great. Dekimasu 03:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks like we're on the right track. A quick question, though. Do we have any specific reference to souls being called "spirits" other than while they are in the real world? The traditional meaning of spirit refers specifically to incorporeal beings. Within the perspective of soul society, reishi is very much corporeal, i.e. material; tangible. It's only in the real world that souls could honestly be referred to as incorporeal beings (spirits). This leads me to believe that it is synonymous with the human's word "ghost", and thus not synonymous with "soul". If so, it's an inappropriate label for resident souls in soul society. This is why I'd like to see a reference to be sure. –Gunslinger47 04:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, pluses/shinigami/hollows are not really "incorporeal" in the real world in Bleach, either. They can use their reishi to run into walls and knock things over... or both at the same time, in the case of the hollow from the first episode. The only difference is that they can't be seen and heard. I think tjstrf's changes were very good, although he didn't separate the humans from the spirits. As long as we stay away from cementing a spirit-soul distinction where it may not exist (obviously I don't think it does), I have no objection to using the word "spirit" in a descriptive way. Dekimasu 08:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

"In Volume 4, Issue 3 of the American Shonen Jump, there was an interview with the creator of Bleach. In the interview, it was said that Tite Kubo entered into a manga contest, but lost. An editor noticed him, and they worked with each other."

This sentence was in the Media Information section, and I just seem to be unable to make sense of it. Does anyone understand what this is referring to? 199.126.137.209 21:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

That text literally means this: A magazine held a "manga contest" which Kubo entered. He did not win, but one of the magazine's editors noticed his talent. They have since gotten together to work on joint projects. This was revealed in an interview with Tite Kubo in the "American Shonen Jump" magazine. (Volume 4, Issue 3) –Gunslinger47 23:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This should really be on the Tite Kubo page. It's probably talking about before he wrote Zombie Powder anyway. I'm moving it over. Dekimasu 00:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modified souls

I cleaned up the mod souls section a little bit because it referred to the arcs and we would have had to argue over the names of Urahara's mod souls all the time. But I'm confused. Isn't Rukia's Chappy another modified soul in the manga? Dekimasu 06:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe mod soul is only used as a name for the souls that have been enhanced of which Chappy isn't one. I really don't know what Chappy would be classified as. Gdo01 06:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Chappy is an artificial soul. Kon is a modsoul. The difference is that artificial souls are manufactured personalities designed to temporarily take over a body, while modsouls are modified, specifically designed for combat. --tjstrf 06:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
So, which character type is Chappy then, heh. Do we need a new section? I think the thing is that we have to be clear on the scope of the page. I have the feeling that making it more accurate is making it worse, and that pains me. Dekimasu 07:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Uhm... she'd be an artificial soul. I'll clarify that. --tjstrf 07:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe that artificial souls lack self-awareness. They are not intelligent beings, and probably do not rank as "characters". They are a dime a dozen. I believe Rukia has an entire canister of Chappy soul candy. –Gunslinger47 03:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Nemu Kurotsuchi would like to speak with you. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Obviously Nemu is somewhat more sophisticated than a piece of soul candy. –Gunslinger47 02:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Arguments on both sides completely based on OR pyon! Dekimasu 03:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Umm... Chappy wasn't the name of the artificial soul, I thought. Chappy is the name of the rabbit that she wanted to have the soul candy container look like. (Like the heads on a pez thingy.) Anyway, she doesn't have a Chappy soul candy, she got the one with the duck instead. She was really mad about that, remember? -- Anaraug 03:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Accidental spoiler pyon! Dekimasu 04:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New category for images

I have created a category to classify images you upload for Bleach articles into, Category:Bleach images. Mainly because I wish to see how many we have, but also because I've felt for quite a while that our Bleach categorization system was incomplete without one. Please categorize any Bleach images you upload just as you would any other article, by adding [[Category:Bleach images]] to the bottom of the description page. Thanks. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 09:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Bleach Terms

I really think that a new page named such needs to be made. Throughout the various pages on Bleach I see such a lack of detail on the various terms that are used. Also so few techniques are named, with the exception of known kidō. I'd say that all the terms are an important aspect to know, and a list of all terms and techniques would nicely cover that. TerraGamerX 00:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd really prefer not to. WP:NOT a glossary seems to be a popular sentiment right now, and Bleach isn't a very terminology intensive series anyway. The necessary terms can be dealt with easily within the articles where they are used. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 01:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Hrm. What purpose would such a list serve? As a side note, the pre-existing search function [1] seems to work adequately for technique names. –Gunslinger47 02:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Bleach may not be very terminology-intensive, but our articles are still pretty opaque. I was trying to look at the lead from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about Bleach, and it makes no sense at all at the moment. For example, "Together they search for hollows and perform soul burials on wayward souls, cleansing the spirits and sending them to Soul Society." I know it's the lead and that much of that is explained in the rest of the article, but really, the lead should be the easiest part of the article to understand, and we haven't written it that way. I don't generally work on the pages for the individual characters, but I imagine it's much the case there as well. I think there is an issue that needs to be dealt with, but that it should happen inside the existing articles rather than in a new article. Dekimasu 02:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
From what I've observed, Bleach is indeed much more focused on its various terms than most anime. I've actually never seen one that has such a frequent use of created terms as is seen in Bleach. Most of these created terms (in my opinion) aren't just some basic concept. Several have a variety of defining factors as to what it is and what it is not, but little is clarified about them. One particular term that remains in my mind is reiatsu. It is used on multiple pages, but only two pages give any slight mentioning as to what it is. Nen is a page that defines reiatsu in all of its aspects. Also I'm not too sure what the comment about searching is. If I look for something as common as getsuga tenshō, I will of course get links to Ichigo and the zanpakuto pages, explaining what that frequent ability is. But what will searching for the neglected frequent terms be for? I think that there enough significant terms for them to earn their own page, but there at least needs to be some improvement for knowledge on Bleach's terminology. Plus the many of the terms (most notably techniques) seem to have some very high symbolic details behind it, which someone (if they got to know what it meant and how it acted) could spend much time analyzing, understanding Tite Kubo's potentially subtle messages. I'm just thinking someone new to the series (or not into it at all) who would come here to better understand things, could instead wind up with gaps of understanding, giving up here and going to a knowledgable friend... --TerraGamerX 06:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Does the official English translation really use the word Spritrons? Because that would be crazy. However, a lot of the issue here is a simple lack of translation of the Japanese. Most of the made-up words are a combination of two or three Japanese kanji that make the general meaning of the term obvious to the reader. Thus rei+atsu=spiritual pressure in the same way that ki+atsu=barometric pressure. The Quincy kanji, likewise, indicate that they are "destroyers." This general method also allows Kubo to keep actual applications and meanings of many of the terms fairly vague (see our terminology dispute above). It probably helps him avoid violating the canon and creating paradoxes. I think that this main page should be able to explain the manga without reference to any in-depth concepts that are even confusing to people who really know about Bleach. Many of the Bleach subpages are still very crufty, making them more opaque and less useful (for example, many articles on individual characters include major plot summaries). Either way, creation of a list page has three main problems: problems of bias as to what should be included, the lack of a real way to clarify many of the vague terms, and the fact that it will draw AfD nominations left and right. Dekimasu 07:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
We could make it standard to use a the nihongo template on every prefered Japanese term the first time its used in an article. For example, instead of just throwing out a word like shinigami, we could say "shinigami (死神 lit. death god?)". Also, all such terms should be italicized as a visual queue to the reader. An example of this being used in practice, from the Ichigo Kurosaki entry:
The series begins with Ichigo receiving shinigami (死神 lit. death god?) powers as a result of a run-in with Rukia Kuchiki, one of the many shinigami who inhabit the spirit world, Soul Society.
We don't need to explain every term the first time we use it, but giving the literal translation when its first used would allow an English reader to understand at least as well as a Japanese one would. –Gunslinger47 17:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
You are undeniably right that many of the Bleach articles require a lot of work.... As for understanding symbolic details, I'm happy to wax poetic on the discussion pages, but since no one is really writing reviews or anything at all that would qualify as acceptable third-party references on Bleach, anything I said on the article pages would be original research. Dekimasu 07:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that's the biggest problem right there... since manga series have fanbases which are pretty much sufficient unto themselves and spread by word of mouth, it's hard to find real opinion references that pass WP:RS.
As for the invented term in Bleach, I don't think they would be opaque to a native speaker of Japanese. Think of it as constructing words from Latin or Greek roots. While a word you invent may not be in any dictionary, it will have a meaning based on its parts. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 17:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The series begins with Ichigo receiving shinigami (死神 lit. death god?) powers as a result of a run-in with Rukia Kuchiki, one of the many shinigami who inhabit the spirit world, Soul Society.

I think that if you leave in the fact that Ichigo could already see ghosts, this is really a better lead introduction to the series than what we have in the main article now, which actually would be fairly confusing to someone who didn't know the series. Dekimasu 03:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tite Kubo on the Bleach movie

According to my sources [2], Tite Kubo is writing the story for Bleach: Memories of Nobody. This makes me wonder, who's writing the Bount arc? I tried pulling it out of the credits, but there's just too much text for me to understand. –Gunslinger47 00:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Without looking at anything, I know that he gets credited on everything, even stuff he doesn't write. The difference is that he will be listed as one of the authors instead of the author (a way of saying that he's signing off on whatever people are ghostwriting for him). This is true of the factbooks and various other Bleach materials. Unfortunately he is forced to sign off on things with plot holes. But speaking of the Bount arc and who's doing it, did anyone notice that the animators have changed as well? Ishida and Ichigo have a completely different facial geometry now. It's annoying and it doesn't look like the manga.
The movie is being marketed as though it's supposed to be canonical, so maybe he really did write it. I'll check the credits the next time I watch an episode and tell you what I see for writers. Dekimasu 13:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed in Episode 96 when they kept drawing Ichigo's eyes funny (the "Kon eyes"). –Gunslinger47 01:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Main" characters

Do we really need a main characters section? If so, what's the criteria of becoming a "main" character? Should we just delete it? Bleach has a large cast of characters, each important. If the criteria for becoming a "main" character is being important to the storyline, I could put up a dang good argument for just about any character. Mwsilvabreen 02:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

See this for our prior convesation on the subject:
Talk:Bleach (manga)/Archive 3#Ordering of main characters
Renji was added later, along with Urahara.
#Renji -- Add to main characters?
Personally, I don't like seeing Urahara in there. I think only the core nakama should be there. –Gunslinger47 02:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
But why do we need a section with a list of just six or seven people? Wouldn't it be obvious who's important in the manga if someone were to just look through the character pages? Mwsilvabreen 02:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I had an idea. What if we had a primary protagonists/antagonists section? Defined by whoever is currently featured prominently in the storyline. Mwsilvabreen 02:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Currently featured prominently in which storyline, anime or manga? And there are far too many characters featured in many of the arcs of both media to list them all as main characters. Personally, I think Main Characters are characters that have featured prominently in all the arcs since their respective introductions. I'm not sure about the manga, as I've only read up to about chapter 24, but in the anime the roles are fairly clearly designated as major or minor characters, at least up until the filler arc. Just my two cents. Nique1287 03:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Both storylines. From what I've seen, it's pretty easy to just tack on (anime only) to the end of a word. As for the far too many characters, its pretty easy right now. For protagonists, you could list the spirt powered imbued humans and the soul society characters currently residing in the human world. Antagonists is also fairly easy. You could list the three defecting captain, the arrancar, and the hollows. Mwsilvabreen 03:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Which would be common knowledge to some, and ruin the series for others. I really don't feel we should intentionally give away the biggest spoiler in the (still unfinished) series. Dekimasu 13:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
But even having Renji and Kisuke in there is also a spoiler. Even Chad, Uryu, and Orihime in there is a spoiler. If someone wants to learn about the series, the current featured characters is a big feature to learn about, which gets me back to my original question, why do we even need a main character section? Mwsilvabreen 19:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that any of those inclusions are spoilers. While it implies that they will become important characters in the series, it doesn't say anything about their role. Ishida could be important because he destroys Soul Society. Chad could be important because he's actually a hollow in disguise. Once you split the characters into a protagonists and antagonists section, you are giving away the fact that Renji isn't such a bad guy, or that you-know-who is a bad guy who isn't dead. As for why the section is there, I believe it is because the article is structured according to the guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga#Sections. In fact, the formatting that we have for the section now is flawed, and there should be blurbs on each of the main characters. However, as it stands, I believe that the page remains informative while containing no "spoilers" that could be said to detract from anyone's reading/viewing experience. Dekimasu 01:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
True, I'm still a newbie, so I haven't really looked at everything, thanks for pointing that page out for me. Mwsilvabreen 02:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish information in the lead

While interesting, the information on Spanish naming/Hispanic origins is not one of the most important things that we can say about Bleach as a whole. I really believe that it is not appropriate to have that information at the top of the main article for the manga/anime, so I have taken it out. The page has to be lean and clean for people who don't know anything about Bleach. Dekimasu 13:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)\

Why don't we put something about it in the hollow section where the spanish names are most prominent? Mwsilvabreen 19:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming issue

We have been using merchandising to standardize some of the names of characters in the series (the Bount, the mod souls, etc.). However, the merchandising is not always consistent. For example, some merchandise romanizes 市丸ギン to Itimaru Gin rather than Ichimaru, and Bleach DS romanizes Kyōraku's first name to Syunsui rather than Shunsui. This is not an inaccurate romanization system, as it reflects Kunrei-shiki. However, it's not the one that we usually use on Wikipedia (modified Hepburn romanization). It doesn't seem to make sense that we believe "Noba" but toss out "Itimaru". What are your thoughts on this? Dekimasu 03:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said in Talk:Shunsui Kyōraku, there are 2 cases of romanization: for Japanese words and for non-Japanese words. The romanization for Japanese words and names should follow Hepburn and there really isn't much room for deviation. The official character book also spells Hitsugaya's name Toushiro in English, that doesn't mean we should. However, for non-Japanese terms (Bounts, Ulquiorra, cero), we should be more careful and probably make an educated guess until there is an official spelling. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
In the case of Noba/Nova, I think it was decided by the other character, Kuroud/Claude. Any existing romanization system would've placed an o at the end (i.e. Kuroudo or whatever), so it's likely that it's supposed to be an English spelling. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to draw it out after you gave a good answer. I don't mean to suggest that we should toss out the current names, which are certainly better (although we do override the Hepburn and macronization standards for company and personal names that are trademarked or designated as preferred by the companies/individuals themselves). However, following "Immanent God Blues" and the like, I have lost confidence in the idea that anything I see romanized in Jump or Bleach merchandising is reliable. I was happy to have a "solution" when I found "Noba" and "Kuroud" in English, but I'm beginning to believe I was just looking at the flair of an underling at an advertising agency in Japan rather than any true creative intent. It's somewhat frustrating. Dekimasu 07:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubai TV

Seems we've had presumably false information on this page for around two months now. The anti-Hebrew vandal, User:67.71.19.130, added Dubai TV to the list of Bleach broadcasters.[3] Now that I've viewed his contributions,[4] I highly doubt his honesty. Dubai TV's website is down, so I'm not able to research the claim for confirmation, but we can see from this page's most recent edit that User:63.227.39.10 disagrees with the assertion.

We need to be more vigilant regarding any new facts posted to the page. –Gunslinger47 04:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. There are no Google results for ( "Dubai TV" bleach ) (without the brackets, but with the quotation marks) that relate to the station saying they'll air the series. Also, the situation seems out of place, that station airing Bleach without it being publicized or even listed as a rumor on major fansites and such (I watch a couple), but I hadn't noticed it before. Guess we should all pay more attention sometimes, eh? *Makes a note to keep both eyes, and her Google fingers, on new info added by anons and newer users* Nique1287 04:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I've notified the folks over at Rurouni Kenshin and YuYu Hakusho that they have a similar problem. The same Dubai TV link was added to Transformers: Energon,[5] but in that case, it was reverted without elaboration only 20 minutes afterward.[6] –Gunslinger47 05:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
This was done from multiple Toronto IP's including 69.158.148.225, 67.71.19.130, and 64.231.54.40. Hopefully its all been fixed. Gdo01 05:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
No, it's still a mess. I'm dropping off messages on the talk pages for the pages I find, as it's still possible that it might be true. Along those lines, I've contacted User talk:Al1976 who appears to be the only other people to ever have placed a Dubai TV link in an anime article.[7] There was also a couple problems with Spacetoon links. [8] –Gunslinger47 05:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
There was no verifiability[9], Dubai TV's website has been down for at least 5 months, there is no articles to be found on it, looked over arabic newspapers/magazines/blogs to see, but all I could find was a couple of forum posts, if it's found to be valid, well then I'm sorry and we should put it back. Until then...-User:63.227.39.10 9:01, 6 December 2006
User talk:Al1976 has responded to me, assuring me that Dubai TV airs only Case Closed. –Gunslinger47 05:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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