Talk:Blackletter
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[edit] General comments
I am coming to this, and related pages, in order to decipher some text. I have found this article to be almost unusable. For example, words like "England" and "Germany" are linked, presumably, to England and Germany yet words that one would not reasonably expect a reader of this article to know (bow, minum, etc.) are not defined or explained.
Therefore, this:
-when a letter with a bow (in b, d, p, q, etc) is followed by another letter with a bow (such as "be" or "po"), the bows overlap and the letters are joined by a straight line (this is known as "biting"). - German Blackletter typefacesa related characteristic is the half r, the shape of r when attached to other letters with bows; only the bow and tail were written, connected to the bow of the previous letter. In other scripts, this only occurred in a ligature with the letter o. -similarly related is the form of the letter d when followed by a letter with a bow; its ascender is then curved to the left, like the uncial d. Otherwise the ascender is vertical. -the letters g, j, p, q, y, and the hook of h have descenders, but no other letters are written below the line.
is virtually incomprehensible.
Visual examples of what is primarily a discussion of a visual subject are necessary. An "A to Z" ilustration of the alphabets discussed would help a lot too.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Incitatus (talk • contribs) 13:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Typeface merge
I've flagged both the Typeface and the Blackletter articles with merger tags because I think the Blackletter section of the Typeface article should be integrated into this one, the main Blackletter article. As you can see, the Typeface article only has short descriptions of each font family, linking to a main article if the topic warrants it (like Serif, Sans-serif, and Slab serif). I think the Blackletter section should do the same. However, I don't know very much on the topic and I can't decide how exactly it should be done. Vontafeijos 05:38, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- I think that one should fairly carefull here. Although the Blackletter font is based on the Blackletter script, they are produced in fundamentally different ways, and have different histories. I would prefer to see the Blackletter section broken into a new article, rather integrated with an article about a type of handwriting. Dsmdgold 04:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- You are, of course, correct in saying that Blackletter fonts and actual Blackletter handwriting are different. However, since the fonts are modeled on Blackletter handwriting, I think it would be better to put the font info in this article (probably at the end) so that comparisons can easily be drawn between the handwriting and the fonts. But again, I don't know enough about the subject to do it myself, otherwise I would. Vontafeijos 04:36, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article gothic script should be merged into this one. It's different names for the same script. The disambiguation page gothic suggest that there were a distinction between the handwriting script called gothic script and a typing script called blackletter, but it seems to me that this distinction is artificial (inexistent outside wikipedia). I believe that the lable blackletter is preferrable because it's less ambiguous: There's no danger of confusion with the gothic alphabet. Additionally, when the term gothic was chosen in the renaissance, it was intended as a despective name for an "outdated" and "ugly" script (in the eyes of a renaissancer). J. 'mach' wust 23:27, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article is now merged with Gothic script. See Gothic script for its verion history. J. 'mach' wust 11:31, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Visigothic minuscule
http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/scripts/history4.htm
- We have Visigothic script for that. Adam Bishop 01:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ballads
That article links here ("Broadsheet ballads (also known as broadside ballads or blackletter ballads)") but it is not obvious what the connection is? Broadsheet ballads were printed in a period generally later than that discussed in the English section of this article. Rmhermen 21:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Why is it called "blackletter"?
I think the article could be improved by answering the subject question in the opening para. I just skimmed the article and it's not answered anywhere I could find. I don't know the answer myself or I would consider fixing it. Contrast with Merovingian script which explains why it's called Merovingian right away. ++Lar: t/c 01:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- It's called that because it was moved to this title from "Gothic script" around this time last year (see J mach wust's comments above, which I disagreed with somewhere at the time, but oh well). Adam Bishop 03:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Gothic cursive
I'm looking for a gothic cursive typeface, one that would have been taught mid-20th century to schoolchildren, in Germany/Eastern Europe. My uncle tried to write it down for me, but couldn't remember many of the letters. It had three distinctions: 1) written with pencil on paper, so no nib, no ink. 2) its cursive, so the letters get joined together. 3) vaguely hints of American schoolhouse cursive, except that any loop in the American cursive typcally turns into a sharp point. 4) some letters get pulled apart into pieces: e.g. lowercase a looks like a lowercase o followed by a short horizontal stroke followed by the downstroke (so that it looks like o followed by an undotted i) Similarly the lowercase g looks like a round o followed by a downstroke. I really want to see what the full alphabet looks like, upper and lower case. linas 18:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Are you thinking of Sütterlin? Adam Bishop 03:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Till what time was the Blackletter mainly used in England?
When was the change to Antiqua? Der Barbar 19:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Correct spelling includes space (black letter, not blackletter)
A minor nit; I'm finding reputable dictionary definitions of this term spelled as "black letter," rather than "blackletter." (Check a physical Mirriam-Webster dictionary, also dictionary.com for differing definitions of both "blackletter" and "black letter.") Respectfully suggest doing a search/replace of this article.
[edit] Awkward terminology
Is there a reason why Textualis, Hybrida, & Cursiva are preferred to Textura, Bastarda and Corsiva?
[edit] Danish
“
[Blackletter] continued to be used for the German language until the 20th century.”IIRC, I've learnt somewhere that it was also used (more than the current script) for the Danish language until the early 20th century. If this is true, I think it should be mentioned in the above sentence. Can anybody confirm or disprove this? Wikipeditor 15:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
