Talk:Black Sun (occult symbol)

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Contents 1 Central Sun 2 Alemannic brooches 3 SS Occult meeting room 4 reliability 5 Black Sun Rising company & Wikipedia article

[edit] Central Sun

re theosophy, de:Schwarze Sonne has:

Es gibt Vermutungen, daß der Begriff auf die russische Okkultistin und Begründerin der Theosophie Helena Blavatsky zurückgeht, die in ihrem Werk "Die Geheimlehre" von einer Zentralsonne spricht.

i.e. Blavatsky doesn't use the term, but her 'Central Sun' is thought to have inspired the concept.

[edit] Alemannic brooches

We could also mention that the Wewelsburg design has loose parallels in Migration Age Alemannic brooches such as [1]. The exact design however has no precedent, and its use is unequivocally extreme-right or Neo-Nazi. dab (ᛏ) 12:56, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

As the article hints at, the symbol is not necessarily political and is also in esoteric and musical circles. This should be made clear. :bloodofox: 04:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SS Occult meeting room

"(...)in the room used by the SS for occult meetings." Really? I'm very uninformed on this... Vyr 01:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] reliability

You cannot just dump material from the James Twining site here. As likely as not, Twining got his information from Wikipedia earlier (it's not like he's into citing his sources). Regarding non-political use in modern Odinism, provide a reference for that. Odinic Rite is a neopagan organization that leans to the extreme right and has clear fascist overtones. It cannot be disputed that the symbol is in use in "Odinism", however, its use seems to be restricted to those factions that hold obvious sympathy for Nazi mysticism. Show us an example of use by a neopagan organization that clearly distances itself from racist or fascist currents. Otherwise, we'll just have to say that the symbol remains in use among the extreme right, both inside and outside of neopagan circles. dab (𒁳) 11:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

If this is in reference to my previous notions, I will state that I agree with you regarding the Odinic Rite, at least in imagery. However, usage of the symbol by artists I added to this is generally apolitical as these artists generally take no political stance. As for the James Twining thing, I assume you're referring to someone else. :bloodofox: 12:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, I was addressing FK0071a (talk • contribs), check recent history. The symbol's use in popular culture is a consequence of its Nazi aura, that's what makes it interesting. The symbol has no signification for historical paganism, and while it is perfectly understandable that neopagan groups want to reclaim actual historical symbols from their Nazi connotations, such as the runes, this doesn't apply here at all. Neopagans that are just into historical polytheism and do not care about Nazi occultism and von Listian mysticism have no stakes here at all. dab (𒁳) 12:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. :bloodofox: 12:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

FK, can you stop adding the geocities "Irminenschaft" link as "reference"? This is a confused writeup by confused mysticists, and nothing like a serious source. They do quote reasonable sources, and we can take such quotes from them, but it remains some random geocities page found on the internets. dab (𒁳) 09:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, but I think you are wrong to basically call anyone that writes something on a subject like this that isn't a "scholer" and doesn't want to pay for a website a "confused mysticist". I think they are in a better position to understand the esoteric significance rather than a so called 'scholar'. You're too bright for that Dab. For example, that article is far better esoterically than anything Goodrick-Clarke has written. They are in a better position for this interpretation. Clarke, biographically, is better (not sure if that makes sense, I hope so). FK0071a 09:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

the article may have some qualities, but any article concluded with "hail the völk!" leaves a shoddy impression (indicating the author not only doesn't know German, but was too lazy to consult a dictionary, and doesn't even try to hide his fascist affinities). We can treat the article as a "primary source", that is, a contemporary mysticist's outlook, but we cannot treat it as a WP:RS. dab (𒁳) 09:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You may be surprised, but I agree fully with what you say on the article. However, I do not agree with calling someone facist simply because they are proud of their people and heritage. That's akin to calling someone a Nazi today simpley because they have an affinity for their own people. Seems that every other culture is allowed to do this, even encouraged to do this, other than Europeans.Shint - very open that it is for their own people and is a religion born of the blood but they are not referred to as Nazi's or Facists. Dab, I agree with what you say and think you are extremily intelligent with the way to redo think I enter, I greatly appreciate this and respect that you take opinions on board, it's great to see but remarks like that from you surprise me. FK0071a 10:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

you may, likewise, be surprised, but I agree, too. being "proud of one's heritage" in the sense of patriotism is nothing bad per se. But there is a reason we have separate articles on patriotism and ethnic nationalism (in the German case, völkisch movement). Or, in the context of neopaganism (you don't need to be pagan to be a patriot), "militant racist" vs. "folkish" (nationalist or supremacist) vs. "tribalist" ("ethnic") vs. "eclectic" (syncretic), see also Germanic_neopaganism#Factions. There is no reason to even talk about Armanen runes or the Black Sun if you are merely proud of your Germanic or German heritage, because the concepts are a the creation of occultist authors and not part of any "heritage". Even from the pov of a "folkish" position verging on supremacism, there is no reason to even look at von List. Usage of the "Black Sun" is really the shibboleth that separates the militant racist and crackpot occultist currents from the merely "ethnic" or "tribalist" ones. Any Geramanic heathen that cares two cents about consciously distancing themselves from Nazi ideology need only dump von-Listian cruft like the Black Sun into the dustbin, without needing to compromise about honouring their actual historical heritage. Since there still are strong Neo-Nazi and fascist undercurrents in the Germanic neopagan scene, right now in AD 2006, it is not superfluous to do this, and a simple show of good faith. You do not need to hysterically declare your clean slate in every other paragraph, like some German gropus still feel compelled to do (the German scene is not healthy in this respect in my opinion, but they are at least in part growing out of it), but in my oponion any honourable neopagan group can put at least a short disclaimer "fascists not welcome" on their website. dab (𒁳) 10:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I expected more from you than to bandy around a word like fascist Dab. The OR constantly strives to keep politics out of the organisation and even expelled a group of people who were attempting to make it more political. We have members who have a wide range of political views which the OR will not interfere with. We work with many governmental and NGO's in many area. Do you think they would deal with a fascist group? You should take more care with your words and consider the consequences that such labels could have on a group. It may have escaped your notice that the OR uses the EGF, not Armanen runes, there is no mention of von List on the OR site, no Black Sun and in fact the symbol has only rarely been used as decoration for articles/books etc and not for many years afaik. Why should we state "fascists not welcome"? What about communists? How about liberals? They are all political viewpoints and the OR states that it is NOT a political group and a members political views are their own, in fact the political affiliations, if any, of our members is usually completely unknown. We believe in individual freedoms and the right for people to make their own choices and accept the consequences of those. Not a very fascist position.--Hengest 19:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Sun Rising company & Wikipedia article

I dropped user 198.53.90.47 a message on his IP address talk page about him vandalising this article by removing references to the image being used as a company logo] without leaving a note as to why. (see his edit here.) The message I left for his was "i assume you are Tim by your IP address. If you are going to remove information please discuss it in the articles talk page first." The below was his response. Please can this be discussed. FK0071a 18:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I do appeciate myself or my business being mentioned in this article. I am requesting that this reference be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.53.90.47 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 14 December 2006.

Tim, is it because this article seems to link the image too closely with that of Nazi mysticism and you don't like your company, Black Sun Rising [2], being associated with it? If that is the reason I perfectly understand and agree why you have made this edit. However, maybe if this is the case you can contribute to the article providing information as to the fact that it "may also be used in occult currents of Odinism without necessarily implying involvement with Nazism." ? I found a Heathens against Hate website proclaiming the reclaimation of this symbol and the Swastika and Fylfot so I linked it to the article and have added a lot of information to try and give the viewpoint to that of disassociating the image from Nazism, including ancient articacts, a contemporary Armanist viewpoint link [3], scholerly references, information on the Bismark monument using the image, etc. You and your company are not Neo-Nazi's and nor are the Odinic Rite - maybe you can both contribute mayking this statement by adding information and your thoughts to even out the article? FK0071a 18:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Tim, is it because this article seems to link the image too closely with that of Nazi mysticism and you don't like your company, Black Sun Rising [4], being associated with it?" This is exactly why I do not want myself or this company mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.53.90.47 (talk • contribs) 19:37, December 14, 2006.

Fair enough Tim, but like I say, rather than just remove the reference and if that is the reason I perfectly understand and agree why you have made this edit. However, maybe if this is the case you can contribute to the article providing information as to the fact that it "may also be used in occult currents of Odinism without necessarily implying involvement with Nazism." ? I found a Heathens against Hate website proclaiming the reclaimation of this symbol and the Swastika and Fylfot so I linked it to the article and have added a lot of information to try and give the viewpoint to that of disassociating the image from Nazism, including ancient articacts, a contemporary Armanist viewpoint link [5], scholerly references, information on the Bismark monument using the image, etc. You and your company are not Neo-Nazi's and nor are the Odinic Rite - maybe you can both contribute mayking this statement by adding information and your thoughts to even out the article? FK0071a 20:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)