Talk:Black Irish

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[edit] please place the former article under 'ethnic divisions in ireland'

what is this? is this an encyclopedia or what? the former article could best be construed as a hoax or a joke at the expense of the historical usage of the term 'black irish'. it deserves to be considered vandalism... but should any of you want to keep it in place... it is best posted as an ethnic diversity in ireland category.

[edit] Mythical Status

My father must be a myth then as he was born into a farming family near the West Coast of Ireland and is darker than most Spanish/Italians. There is no doubt in my mind that much historical information about the Irish has been subverted and obscured over the centuries for political and religious purposes. The occurrence of dark skinned Irish, especially along the west coast of Ireland, is significant enough to warrant further investigation.

--220.245.178.134 00:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)CS

The point is not that there are not dark Irish. Obviously, there are. There are a lot of Irish people with dark hair and dark complexions, and there always have been. The real "subversion" has been the (American) conventional wisdom that all Irish are pale skinned and light or red-haired.
I have no idea what "political and religious purposes" you are talking about.
Jbull 03:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Jbull, the "political and religous purposes" are in reference to the Anti-Irish immigration attitudes in the U.S. in the 19th Century and early 20th Century. Irish were portrayed as dogged-looking leprechauns with hellish red hair and were characterized as being "subversive" by nature. The dominant class in America during this time was Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. Seeing an influx of Irish-Catholics in the major developed areas of American society was perceived as a threat to their environment.
Agree with Jbull. Babajobu 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category

I added the caregory: Category:Anthropological categories of people, i.e., a category of people based on their antropological traits: there are two major kinds of them: Physical anthropology, which deals with physical traits of people and Cultural anthropology, which deals with cultures, societies, etc. "Black Irish" def is based on physical traits, hence dealt with physical antropology. mikka (t) 21:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Physical anthropology deals with groups of people with shared physical traits. There is no distinct population of "Black Irish." There are just Irish people, the majority of whom have brown hair. Listing the fictional "Black Irish" under "Anthropological categories of people" would be like listing another made-up category like "Black-haired Chinese." It's redundant and confusing. I'm removing it again.--Jbull 22:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for using the talk page. Even if it is a mistaken theory, the category is correct. We have articles is "Race" category for terms deemed incorest and obsolete, but still they are in the antropological category. Please don't confuse a scientific classification or real life with classification of articles.
Anyway, right now the dispute is purely academic, since it turns out there is a better category. You should have used it yourself, if you are expert in things Irish (whicle I am not). mikka (t) 04:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I have often heard the term "black Irish" used in Ireland to describe white Irish people who happen to have black or dark brown hair, brown eyes and a tan. If people think about it a bit they'll mention Spain and ancient trade links and maybe the Armada. That's about all there is to it. I'm not sure it constitutes an ethnicity or deserves an article. (Your typical Irish person has brown hair and blue eyes and fair skin) --Halib Frisk 09:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC) http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a930730.html if you want a reference.

[edit] Ancient Mediterranean seafarers

How seriously is the possibility of ancient Mediterranean seafarers being taken in academia? The Phoenicians went to Cornwall for tin and the Fomorians were one of the aboriginal peoples of the British Isles, but online accounts of the Fomorians are usually mythological.

You might find this interesting http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146411318.--Halib Frisk 09:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Slaves in the Carribean

The phrasing of the first paragraph under 'Other uses of "Black Irish"' suggests that the Irish were used as slaves in the English and/or French Carribean. This is undocumented on the "Slavery" page. Perhaps this discussion should take place on the Slavery page, but as I am uninformed on this matter, perhaps I have just misread this phrase. If this is the case I suggest that it be rephrased to specify the status of the Irish mentioned.

I did a little research on this. It seems the scholarship is contested but it does appear that thousands of Irish people were taken as slaves and/or indentured servants to the British American Colonies, in the mid 1600's to work as domestics and labourers. http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/CLA-L/2000/11/0041.php

"But the very first slaves that the English made in the Caribbean were Irish. And there were more Irish slaves in the middle of the 17th century than any others" http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-06.htm

"Law Case, Master Samuel Symonds against Irish slaves" http://www.yale.edu/glc/archive/1168.htm

As far as Montserrat goes I found accounts of Irish slaves, Irish servants and Irish slaveowners. Anything that can't be referenced in the entire article should be deleted because most of it is anecdotal. --Halib Frisk 09:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Irish

this article suggests that the term "Black Irish" in releation to people who do not directly have have 1/4 to 1/2 Black African ancestry is limited to the US. I don't think that's true. I heard the term first about 10 years ago. Also there is the case of Haemochromatosis, one of the symptoms of which is the ability to tan easily. Apparently 1 in 5 people of Irish descent carry the gene and it manifests itself in about 1:86 ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4842700.stm ). I know someone who has just been diagnosed with the condition (the iron levels in his blood were 20 times the norm) and he has to have 1 pint of blood removed from his body each week, he's been doing it for 6 weeks now and will continue to do so until the iron in his body returns to normal levels. Jooler 15:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate articles

I think this page should be mainly on the myth and it's possible origins and a page on the Irish black communities should be made separately as it is really a completely different subject. Arniep 21:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iberian origin

As some of you who have ever been to Ireland may already know, most Irish are not pale with red hair. Those minority characteristics probably stem from Scandinavian settlement of Ireland during late antiquity/the early middle ages. The Celts who settled France, England, and Ireland were a people who originated in Eastern Europe. More specifically, the Gaels who settled Ireland were possibly settled first in Iberia. Here is a direct quote from the Wikipedia article on the Gaels:

"The Gaels, during the beginning of the Christian era (at which time Gaelic people were mostly restricted to Ireland), believed themselves to be descendants of Míl Espáine coming from the north of Iberia, mainly Gallaecia (modern Galicia and northern Portugal), where there existed also an early form of Ogham script. This belief persists in the Gaelic cultures of Ireland and Scotland up to the present day, with many if not most clan leaders in either country claiming descent from their predecessor, back to famous historical kings going back into pre-history. Much of this is covered in the Lebor Gabála Érenn, which catalogues the path of the Gaels' ancestors in a way that, while mostly mythic, may be an embellished account of actual historical events. Discovery of a form of early Ogham script in Gallaecia, as well as genetic studies linking the Gaels to the Basques and Galicians in northwestern Spain, lends credence to such a theory."

My mother is of %100 Irish descent, and her skin is tanner than mine could ever hope to be. We both have dark hair, nearly black. Couldn't these characterristics, common to many of Irish ancestry, have something to do with the Mediterranean/Eastern/Southern European ancestry of the Irish?

[edit] Asian Origin of "Black Irish"

Black Irish are distinctive enough to be classified as far outside the normal range of any northern-European ethnic group in that they are born with perfectly straight totally jet-black hair. Also, almond-shaped eyes are seen occasionally among the Irish. For instance; Frank McCourt complained that his schoolmates used to tease him, calling him “squint-eyed Jap.” You’d think someone would put two and two together, especially since every now and then Asian women--many of whom never saw a white man in their lives--living in remote parts of Western China and Outer Mongolia to this day sometimes give birth to blue-eyed babies, and sometimes even babies with red hair and freckles.

If that isn’t enough, however, recently archeologists have uncovered Celtic mummies buried in the deserts of Western China.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/features/1997/090997/mummies.html

It would be nearly impossible for a Celtic population, what with their horses and wagons and nomadic tendencies, not to have traded with the Chinese and establish colonies in far-off places, then routinely intermarry and take their families back to the west coast of Europe.

Larry D. Lyons

I seriously doubt that Frank McCourt's appearance has anything to do with the fact that a mummy in China had tartan on it! He doesn't look typically Irish, true, maybe he had some ancestors from the Liverpool Chinese community (lots of movement between Liverpool and Ireland) or maybe some early eastern european immigrants (he looks a bit Serbian imo). Arniep 20:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Ireland was settled in pre-Celtic times. As you point out people traded back and forth over long distances. Celtic culture and language arrived in Ireland from central Europe. That does not mean that a large number of Celts arrived in Ireland and displaced the population. --Halib Frisk 09:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The thing is, Larry, horses and wagons may be very useful, but they won't get you to China if you're living on an island. Like -- say! -- Ireland.

[edit] Black Scots

Blogs and, um, school worksheets aren't suitable references for wikipedia, especially since they only use the phrase 'Black Scots' without explaining what it means, and they're only discussing a novella about fly fishing anyway. Aren't there any scholarly, peer-reviewed explanations of this term? --Nydas 17:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Black scots just refers to Scots with dark hair and eyes. Admittedly they aren't ideal sources but they are examples of the terms usage in a book by a notable author. Arniep 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Neither source explicitly states that Scots with dark hair and eyes (i.e. most Scots) are known as 'Black Scots'. And anyway, they're a blog and a school worksheet referencing a work of fiction - there's no way that they measure up to wikipedia's standards. Is there any real evidence that this term is remotely inclusion-worthy?--Nydas 20:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed for the last time. If it's reverted again, I'll ask some other Scottish Wikipedians to take a look at it - you never know, they might want to keep it.--Nydas 17:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Scottish wikipedians are necessarily going to be any more expert on it than anyone else. The fact is the term is used in a major book so it is perfectly fine to state that. Arniep 18:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The book is a work of fiction. If the term has any currency whatsoever, there must be better sources than that.--Nydas 19:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, a new reference has been added. It's better, but still weak, IMO. There's very little evidence anywhere that Kenneth I had dark skin.--Nydas 06:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Basque/Northern Spain

In the main article for Ireland it mentions recent dna evidence that segments of the Irish population seem to be of Basque descent. Would that information be relevant here?

There's a bit about this in the Iberian Origin talk section above.--Shtove 15:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black hair?

Being an Irish person, I have personally never come across this term until recent years, after joining a forum and hearing it from American members of that forum. I had always naturally assumed it referred to African-descended Irish people.

However, in regard to this term, as applied to black-haired people, I think it should be noted that black hair is the most common hair colour in Ireland as far as I'm aware, as are blue eyes. Also, some mention should probably be made of the surname Black, which is the Anglicisation of Dubh meaning "dark (of complexion or hair)", eg Clann Mhic Gille Dhuibh = "son of the black lad", and similar with the surname Brown. --Mal 22:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

A user somewhat confused the article by stating Black Irish referred to people with blue eyes and freckles - all people with whom I have discussed this subject with who have Black Irish ancestry are certain it refers to both dark hair and dark eyes. Arniep 00:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

ArnieP,

The term "Black Irish" generally ascribes to Irish individuals with very dark hair, as opposed to the blond or red variation often associated with Ireland and her descendants. Eye color and complexion may vary. Irishman Pierce Brosnan, to whom has dark brown hair and blue eyes has gone on record considering himself a representative of the so-called "Black Irish" look. What Mal finds confusing is the notion that such a term as "Black Irish" even exists, considering that most inhabitants of Ireland are dark haired.

Mal,

Although dark hair is the most common hue in Ireland, for whatever reason, many individuals consider the Irish to be generally rufous or blond. As a result, they term persons of Irish descent having dark brown or black hair as "Black Irish" often suggesting the darker hair, eyes or complexion derives from survivors of the Spanish Armada in Ireland. Colin Farrell with his dark brown hair, brown eyes and medium complexion, along with Lara Flynn Boyle with her brown hair, blue eyes and pale freckled complexion are both looked upon as what some call "Black Irish." – — ArmsHeldOut 03:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotes from celebrity magazines aren't acceptable as sources for Black Irish. The red hair gene is associated with freckles- this is from a scandinavian and germanic genetic origin not an Atlantic origin. It has been proven in DNA studies that the Western Irish have less germanic and scandinavian genetic forebears therefore they also have less red hair genes, therefore it is inappropriate to suggest that freckles are a characteristic of the Black Irish. Arniep 12:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
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