Talk:Black Hebrew Israelites

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An article by this name was deleted under VfD fairly recently (it was a POV rant) - but this new one seems to be a different article - it is still awful and needs cleaned up - but it does seem to deal with a real group. Perhaps it needs attention rather than deletion. I think this should perhaps be sent back to VfD rather than speedied. --Doc Glasgow 00:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Scratch that - an article already exists under Black Hebrews perhaps redirect--Doc Glasgow 00:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

the Hebrew Israelites differ from the Black Hebrews. (131.212.113.198 - article's creator)

I removed the speedy nomination; it is not clear to me that there is anything inherently wrong with this article. Take it through vfd if you believe it should be deleted. Thue | talk 07:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't think it merits deletion - seems OK - although I'm ot sure that 'racist' is a neutral adjective, seems like an evaluation - would the group describe themselves as racist? --Doc Glasgow 08:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Is "Black" redundant or racist in "Black Hebrew Israelites"?

An anonymous editor has been vandalizing this article and making this claim. Is it true? Well, the term does get almost 2500 Google hits. Included in those hits are sites like this: [1] [2] [3] obviously people who self-identify that way. Jayjg (talk) 14:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

"Unfortunately for the Jews, most of the Hebrew grammar and vocabulary corresponds closelt with that of Northern Africa the so-called land of Ham whilst the natural Jewish language, Yiddish is an obscure dialect of German ." - Africa is divided into White Africa and Black Africa, so land of Ham is the former; Therefore, the similarities between the Hamitic languages and Hebrew do not prove that blacks are descended from the Israelites. Of course, Yiddish is not the natural Jewish language, but the old Ashkenazic language.--1523 08:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, how is that strange and factually incorrect quote relevant? Jayjg (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

My point is that the ancient Israelites were usually not black, so "Black" in "Black Hebrew Israelites" is not redundant at all. Indeed it is absurd to insist the Jews generally are not descended from the Israelites - It might be quite possible that the Ashkenazim are not descended from the Israelites though.--1523 06:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

The genetic evidence shows the opposite; that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed descended from Israelites. Jayjg (talk) 03:45, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-semitism

Currently:

As well, because of their focus on Jews, who they insist are not Israelites at all, but rather Edomites and Khazars acting on behalf of Satan[2] and secretly controlling the United States[3], they have been accused of anti-Semitism.

Accused of anti-semitism? If these are their beliefs, then they are anti-semitic. Would we say that Karl Lueger was "accused of anti-semitism." Or that it has been accused that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were anti-semitic? These kind of beliefs are by definition anti-semitic. We shouldn't tiptoe around it. john k 08:14, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to be neutral when I wrote it. Jayjg (talk) 20:33, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I understand, I just think it's going way overboard. I don't see a problem with calling a group anti-semitic when they explicitly preach what are explicitly and obviously anti-semitic doctrines. If it walks like a duck... john k 05:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

ur just mad cuz they might be right,lol.

[edit] Sorry about the Controversy

I am Jewish (Modern Orthodox), and came accross this stub while I was creating the Template:African American. Please notice that I've added little to this page other than formatting, as I know little about this faith, and its principles.

I originally found this stub via the disambiguation page Black Jews.

When I added the link to the template (pointing to this stub), I did not realize that there was already a clean, and more complete page representing NPOV – Black Hebrews. I did not mean to start edit wars.

I am happy to see that there *is* NPOV information that was added to this page that appears sound and valid. I encourage you to bring your edits to that page. I am going to move this page there, and correct the double-redirects.

If this article, and Black Hebrews are not the same topic, please let me know on my Talk page. If it is solely a matter of what the title should be please bring it up on Talk:Black Hebrews.

Again, sorry about the unecessary controversy I created.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>    

The articles discuss different groups, and I see nothing POV about the current version. The Black Hebrews of Dimona are just one group, there are others. A merge might make sense, but only one which retains the current information, not simply a re-direct. Jayjg (talk) 04:49, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for setting it straight (no one sent any flames! that's rare, and I appreciate it.) I can't recall the link changes I may have made before the holiday weekend (US). Please look at my contributions page to hunt them down and revert.
— <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     16:25, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV (Neutrality)

After seeing the same paragraph reverted back and forth, I have posted the Template:POV and have added this article to Requests for a Third Opinion prior to any official mediation. For reasons I've stated above, I don't feel compitent to be the third editor. If I do not see that my request has been followed on in a day or two, I will file an official request for mediation.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     22:20, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

BTW the edit war seems to be between User:155.232.250.51 and User:Jayjg. The first is an anonymous IP from a university proxy server, which has had many warnings about vandalism. The second being a registered user and respected Wikipedian administrator.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>     6 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this the same group as Nation of Yahweh? I wouldn't think so, but the Religious movements site listed this as an alternate name for the NoY.--T. Anthony 06:14, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Different group, related ideas. Jayjg (talk) 19:40, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I have
added specific Black Hebrew Israelite congregations (many of whom are not anti-semitic)
developed sepearate pages or linked to existing pages on specific groups
issues of anti-semitism should be put on pages relating to specific groups, otherwise its like saying all Christians are anti-semitic. Harrypotter 21:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality and Antisemitism

First of all, looking over this page, it's very POV in a lot of areas (the part about the BHI living in Israel sounds like an advertisement!) someone should definitely go over this and make it more neutral. I'm not denying that there are stable communities, but it's more complex than thay they're perfect. I'm not really knowledgable enough either way.

Second, the BHI phenomenon isn't so well organized and homogenous. There's a lot of variety. I've met guys on the street who have exhibits about why the Nazis were right and how killing the Jews shows they're not the chosen people, how I am somehow both an Amalekit and an Edomite and so on. These BHI people are definitely anti-semetic, and, as is clear from the origin of the term in the 19th century and the "Arabs can't be enti semites because they're semites too" issues show, anti-Semitism is really a fancy word for anti-Jew. I don't think anyonce can deny that. HOWEVER, I have also met black guys on the subway with some tzitzit like things who are definitely not Beta Israel act really friendly and tell me how the Jews and the Blacks are brothers. I think what it's fair to say is that there's variety, some are clearly anti-semitic and others just as clearly not. When I have tme, I'll (BEH) edit the page, but for now if anyone wants to, go ahead. Avraham 21:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

==Article a complete pov== This article is a travesty, as a citation it sites the groups own website. I will do major npov edit.Incorrect 01:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Finished first round of edits, other editors are welcome to do more, this now more reads like an encyclopedia article and less like a puff piece from a pr firm. And btw, it is not proper to cite a groups own wedbsite to demonstrate their superior characteristics.Incorrect 02:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, made a few more edits, I have no idea whether the substance of this article is correct (which I didn't change), but I did remove the puff pieces and extreme pov statements contained in the article. While much of it rings false, since I don't know the facts I have left the substance alone.Incorrect 04:04, 26 May 2006 (UT
An editor, Q, without any discussin, has reinserted a total pov (unsourced except by the groups owns website) puff piece on this subject. If this continues (I will reedit to remove the pov postions) I will suggest this article be deleted.Incorrect 14:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misuse of the term anti-Semite

Black Hebrew Israelites have been accused of “anti-Semitism” a term they say cannot applied them because they are (in fact) Shemetic.

The above sounds like the same pseudoreasoning used again and again ad nauseam by Arab extremists when accused of anti-Semitism. Yes, Arabs are technically Semites, but anti-Semite in this context means anti-Jew, or, in this article more specifically, anti-“white Jew”. —Lagalag 14:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Arabs aren't just technically Semites, they are most definitely Semites in every reasonable way, and given that "Semitic" is a language family and not an ethnicity, they have a much better case for being Semitic than Yiddish (or other Indo-European language) speaking Ashkenazim. Which doesn't change the fact that the word "Anti-Semitic" in any context means "Anti-Jewish." It was coined in the 19th century with that meaning, and has never meant anything different. Furthermore, Jewish in this context means "the people who have been accepted as 'Jews' for the last several millennia, not various tiny extremist black groups that have decided they are the true Jewish people." It would include prejudice against the Ethiopian Jews, for instance, even though they are "Black" (although it wouldn't include racial prejudice against them by other Jews, just prejudice against them as Jews). john k 16:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's just some more of the nonsensical original research Deananoby keeps adding to this article; here's another classic example of his editing: [4], and note his recent comment in the #Anti-semitism section above. I generally just revert when I notice his edits; I suppose if he continues to insert nonsense sterner measures will have to be taken. Jayjg (talk) 17:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I changed "racialism" to "racism", why the need for the longer word when we have an appropriate and common one readily available?

[edit] Residency vs Citizenship?

This article says the Black jews were recently given residency in Israel, does that imply citizenship? It says they are eligible for the draft (I though everyone in Israel *had* to be drafted), do they have voting rights? When were they granted residency?

[edit] First to follow the ten commandments?

The Church of God and Saints of Christ is a Black Hebrew Israelite religious congregation organized in 1896 by William Saunders Crowdy. This organization is the oldest congregation started in the United States that follows the tenets of the Biblical Jews and adheres to the Ten Commandments.

I don't know if this was just worded oddly, but it seems like a strong and innaccurate claim to make...

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