Talk:Black Friday (shopping)

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Contents 1 To Do 2 Current Research? 3 Removal of disambiguous text 4 Origin 5 Googlebloged 6 Categories? 7 uhm .. Hello 8 Wake up! 9 Target Corporation: Black or Green? 10 Target and Green Friday 11 Changes 12 No actual definition 13 "Not uncommon for people to die" 14 Semi-protection 15 Pictures 16 Reference for this? 17 Black Friday is my bitch 18 Other Countries

[edit] To Do

I think the article is much stronger now, but there is certainly more that could be done:

1. What is the history of Black Friday? We now have good information as to the history of the term, but not as to the history of the day after Thanksgiving as the start of the Christmas season. It's clearly had that status for some time, since Roosevelt famously moved Thanksgiving in order to start the Christmas shopping season earlier.

2. Is there any truth to the claim that Black Friday has the heaviest customer traffic? I'm skeptical, but I don't have ready proof that it is false.

I found some proof, but it's only had the most traffic in 2003 and 2005 (and possibly some other years before 2001). -- 129.93.191.117

3. The claim is sometimes made that, even if Black Friday is not now the heaviest shopping day of the year, it once was. This has not been true for at least 15 - 20 years; is there verifiable information as to whether it was true before that? John M Baker 23:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

4. References needed for the Black Friday on the Internet and Controversy sections. John M Baker 20:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current Research?

"This origin is unlikely to be correct, as current research indicates that the heavy traffic origin is well-attested and the black ink theory was not put forward until several years later." Does anyone have a link to this "current research"? -- 129.93.191.117 2:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It's implicit in the article: References to heavy traffic date back to 1975, to the earliest references to Black Friday (in this sense), and nobody suggests that Black Friday has anything to do with black ink until 1982 at the earliest. John M Baker 02:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The claim above implies much more than that. "The heavy traffic origin is well-attested" implies that numerous reliable sources indicate that the 1975 article is in fact the first known use of "Black Friday" in this sense. The article alone isn't enough to prove that. Also, no proof is provided that "the black ink theory was not put forward until several years later" because the claim earlier in the article that the accounting meaning has been traced back to a 1982 news broadcast is unsupported. If you can find a reference establishing that, then you can make the above claim. Otherwise, there is nothing to support it. -- 129.93.191.117 20:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Revised in response to this comment. John M Baker 20:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of disambiguous text

I did an extensive edit of the piece. I'm not sure if the unsourced article warning is still needed, but decided to leave it in for now. Changes made include clarifying that Black Friday is definitely not the busiest shopping day of the year (although, as a matter of editorial conservativism, I left in the unsourced and somewhat doubtful assertion that it may have the heaviest customer traffic); removing the incorrect assertions that Christmas Eve or Boxing Day may be contenders for the title of busiest shopping day; and revising information about its origin to fit the known facts. I also removed the following passage:

<<Earliest citation, speaking to the Friday after Thanksgiving:

A BLACK FRIDAY.
There have been many Black Fridays in recent history. Most of them have been days of financial panic. There has been none of blacker foreboding than last Friday. And the blackness is not loss or fear of loss in stocks and bonds.
New York Times (1857-Current file).
New York, N.Y.: Dec 3, 1922. pg. 38, 1 pgs
ISSN/ISBN 03624331

>>

"In fact, that *New York Times* article has nothing really to do with "the Friday after Thanksgiving," but instead describes diplomatic reaction (or lack thereof) on Friday, 1 December 1922 to the formal announcement in Lausanne of a decree calling for the expulsion of Greeks from Turkey." http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0611D&L=ADS-L&P=R1630&I=-3 John M Baker 07:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• In furtherance of John's actions, I added a disambiguous statement at the top of the article. John, instead of deleting misplaced, but valid factual text, try to relocate it to the proper article(s). -- Jreferee 15:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point, but I don't think there is a proper article for this 1922 Black Friday. It may well have been a nonce-use by the New York Times. John M Baker 18:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

I did a fairly big re-edit of the origins section. There is a heck of a lot of debate and editing comming down on both sides of the issue so I gave each theory its own spot. I also moved the "worker" refrence here as that is a direct refrence to what is or is not the origin of the word.TheHungryTiger 12:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Where in the world did the term "Black Friday" come from? I'm been alive for 29 years living in a large city and I swear I have never heard of the day after Thanksigiving referred as "Black Friday"!

>>Yes, you're right. The Orwellians threw this into the mainstream during the 2005 holiday season. No one ever used the phrase to describe 'crazy day after T'giving' until 2005.... despite what the wikinazis and the Orwellians want you to think. I can't believe my constant carping on this is always deleted. Wikipedia should be a place to FIGHT the Orwellians, not be co-opted by them. (I (crd721) would like to add that the article was created in 2003, so obviously people did use the term before 2005.)

• I've heard the term 'black friday' used for many, many years. I'm surprised that some people have only heard it recently. --208.204.155.241 14:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the article refers to "Black Tuesday", but then a later paragraph (under "Green Friday") refers to "Black Thursday". Which is correct? --Anonymous, 19:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I've always considered it the worst day of the year to work in retail - I always tied Black Monday with Black Friday. Lilith-Darkmoon 09:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

In the restraunt biz, we did the same thing by calling mothers day "black sunday". Its the workers that came up with the nickname, not the beancounters.

This is the first I heard that "Black" came from an accounting term. I had assumed retail employees made up the term "Black Friday" because it's the worst day of the year to have to work in retail. I don't have a source for this, just puttin' it out there. thx1138 18:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Same here. Until I read this page, I just assumed "black" referred to the frustration many shoppers feel at the overwhelming amount of traffic -- both automobile and pedestrian -- on this day. Further, should it be mentioned in the article that the reason so many people are even available to shop on this day is because their employers give them that Friday off work? If Thanksgiving weren't on a Thursday, I doubt there would even be a Black Friday. "Green Friday" to me sounds like a political or environmental notion, so I'm not sure why big stores like Toys 'R' Us would promote this over "Black Friday" (in fact, until I read the description, I assumed Green Friday was referring to Buy Nothing Day). --Birdhombre 20:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Dito. Im prone to think that whoever put in the frefence to "operating in the black" did so as a prank. Naturaly, no retail store coudl ev er posible operate in the red for 11 months out of the year without going out of business. The term "black" is a spoof of "black thursday" the stock market crash. ..... I m goign to go ahead and change this.

This usage was in a NYT article here (RSS Link) http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/business/25cnd-retail.html?ex=1290574800&en=b3b78e02575a668a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss --24.147.68.89 22:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

You do realise that the reporter who wrote that article probably just got the info from looking at the wiki-page.

If the operating losses during the rest of the year aren't that severe, then yes it is possible: Say for instance a store loses $1,000 per month from January to the end of November but makes a $24,000 profit during the Christmas shopping season, that store makes a profit of $13,000 on the year even though for 11 months it was eating red ink left, right and center. But hopefully my most recent edit is more publicly acceptable, by mentioning the double meaning without making it sound like that was the primary meaning. :) Iceberg3k 17:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

It's called Black Friday because retailers dread this day because it determines the tone of the rest of the shopping season; poor sales on Black Friday tend to indicate it will be a poor Christmas Season. Like the stock market crash, Black Friday "makes or breaks" the retailers' holiday season. That's why retailers dread today.

Well, when I was working retail we all did dread this day. But it was because every rude, inconsiderate, asshole of a customer was in the store that day. It had nothing to do with the stores bottom line.

I believe the term has to do with the amount of black ink used in printing all the newspaper advertisements that come out the Friday after Thanksgiving.

The way I learned about Black Friday had to do with the "Black ink, red ink" thing, and I first heard it being it explained this way on newstalk radio. A retailer hopes to turn all of their red ink into black ink on that weekend, and if they don't, then of course they will fail. 68.226.61.4 02:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The term "Black Friday" was coined because of the number of Traffic accidents/fatalities due to the large number of people traveling on this day. I learned this back in Driver's Education class in High School(Over 10 years ago). Has anyone else heard this theory?

[edit] Googlebloged

We've been googlebloged! I think there should be a template for this somewhere (a la {{slashdotted}}), but until then, you can see the link at http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/11/dont-drop-while-you-shop.html. There are a couple other articles I've seen Google link to, and I'd love to tag those as well. -Mysekurity 23:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Cool! I hope they saw the version without the spam links. For what it's worth, I believe there was recent discussion (probably on WP:TFD) about generalising the "slashdotted" template so that it could be applied in situations like this; I don't recall if any action was taken. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-10-24 01:00:55Z

[edit] Categories?

The category list is messed up -- it looks like this in my browser (Safari): "Categories: ‪Black days‬ | ‪| Christmas-linked holidays‬ | ‪FridaysDistribution, retailing, and wholesaling" I tried to fix it but it hasn't changed. There's nothing I can see in the code that would cause this... Anyone know what's up? ManekiNeko | Talk 06:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up: The problem doesn't occur in Firefox. Just in Safari. This is very strange. I'll revert the change I made as it doesn't seem to make any difference. ManekiNeko | Talk 07:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] uhm .. Hello

this wasnt made clear on the article page nor on the discussion list, but why is no one making a case for why the bloody hell days/events/spectacles that fall on the negative are referred to as 'black', there clearly is an undertone here that implies the race and the people associated. it is very insulting, there should be an a paragraph atleast on the front page stating why these things begin with the term black.

I don't detect that undertone. You may be interested in looking up the definition of black in a dictionary. The word has many negative meanings that have nothing to do with race and which predate (by about 300 years!) use of the term to refer specifically to African Americans. —HorsePunchKid→龜 2005-11-29 06:33:38Z

Yep, I'm pretty sure that black was associated with death (and night, and darkness, and therefore by proxy also the unknown) in the Western world long before it was used as slang for skin-color. Please don't back-define these things. I'm pretty sure the person above HorsePunchKid was a troll, but just for the record, you know. :P Runa27 15:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wake up!

The term "black" is not racial or negative. It simply refers to profits. When you see red that means a store is not making profit. But black means that store is making a profit. Most stores get into the "black" on Black Friday.ЄИЄЯפЇЄ 20:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Target Corporation: Black or Green?

Are we sure Target Corporation calls this Green Friday? I work for a SuperTarget store and we've always called it Black Friday. I've never head of a Green Friday prior to reading this article. 68.226.61.4 05:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Target and Green Friday

I am a manager at SuperTarget and Target Corporation absolutely does NOT use the phrase green friday. Any in-company literature or communications refer to this day as Black Friday. I have never once heard it called green friday. I'm going to remove Target from that list.

I'm a GSTL in a New England store. When I used the term Black Friday, I was admonished by my ETL-GS and my ETL-HR. Which part of the country are you from? It is possible there's fractured usage.

I work in a SuperTarget in Omaha, Nebraska. I remember the ETLs referring to this day as Black Friday in 2005 and 2004; however now that I think about it I do remember an ETL blurting out in 2003 "This isn't Black Friday, this is Green Friday: We don't have red ink here" but I don't know if they were being serious or sarcastic. Perhaps it was once called Green instead of Black. What year were you admonished? I'll try to stay away from New England if people are like that over there. 68.226.61.4 05:27, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

Actually the use of this term goes back well beyond 2000. There are lots of newspaper articles using the term back in the 1980's.

The internet use of ad scans also goes back well beyond 2005. The DMCA threats alone go back to 2002 and the ads were posted online prior to that.

--Jwikipro 02:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No actual definition

Someone needs to define Black Friday in more detail for us non-Americans. What sort of preperation is there? Are there long queues earlier in the day? What is the increase in volume? Why do they do this for one day? How much stock is left at the end? etc etc.

I guess it's rather hard to define, since it's not really an organized event. Because Thanksgiving is on a Thursday, many white collar employers will also close on the Friday after, or employees may take a vacation day. With Christmas being almost a month away at that point, that Friday has become a big shopping day.

Even 15 years ago, one might refer to this as the "start" of the Christmas shopping season, but I don't think it is anymore, as some stores are putting up Christmas decorations even before Halloween. Newspapers on Thanksgiving day will be stuffed full of ad slicks from stores offering various deals for Friday. Often these will be limited-time deals, only available at certain times of the day, or the stores will open ridiculously early (like 5:30 a.m.) with a limited quantity of "doorbuster" deals. This creates a sense of urgency and hype and gets people into the store.

Personally, I don't do any shopping on Black Friday because of all the traffic -- both automobile on the street and pedestrian in the stores. Also, I have a moral problem with going to bed early on a holiday and getting up earlier on a vacation day than I would on a work day. ;) --Birdhombre 18:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

'Black Friday' (in terms of the post-U.S. Thanksgiving Day context) is simply this: it's the day where--in general--American retailers switch from operating with negative or marginal positive cashflow to a significantly stronger gross profit phase for the year; i.e., the so-called 'Holiday Rush', ('Christmas Rush' for the bible thumpers out there). Many American retailers--large and small--actually make very little net profit if not show a loss over most of the calendar year. This 'operating in the red' (as accounting ledger books were traditionally referred to when operational cashflow exceeds income; e.g., 'bleeding' red, etc.) traditionally changes to 'in the black' mode on this particular Friday, when the American consumer hits the shopping malls and big-box retailers in massive numbers. For many smaller businesses, the thirty-odd shopping days between Thanksgiving Day and Christmas Day will determine whether or not they will still be operating at this same time period the following year. --monoblocks 08:32 PST, 24 November 2006 (i.e., 'Black Friday') (UTC)

[edit] "Not uncommon for people to die"

Citation please? I'm sure it has happened before, but we could use proof. GhostPirate 21:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It's probably happened once or twice, but "uncommon" is a strong word and definitely requires a cite. --Jwikipro 22:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection

I requested semi-protection over at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection. My reasoning is as follows: "Article has received a bevy of spam and general vandalism beginning on about November 20th, and is becoming very hard to manage and keep clean. Sudden influx is likely due to the fact that Black Friday is this Friday, so I'm sure the protection could be removed on the weekend or so. Thanks for your consideration." --Czj 04:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

Black Friday is the day after tomorrow. A few pictures of people lined up outside stores, or some sort of chaos within a store should visually demonstrate this article quite clearly. These pictures should be easy to obtain, but I'll be working. Is anyone up for it?  :o) tiZom_(2¢) 23:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, as if I'm going anywhere near a mall today... If you work retail, you could always just hold up the camera in the store and say, "Smile for Wikipedia!" --PatrickD 15:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference for this?

"Most contemporary uses of the term focus instead on the theory that retailers traditionally operated at a financial loss for most of the year (January through November)". I would be surprised if this were true. I know the holiday period is one of the biggest for retailers but surely half-year reports would regularly be losses (with full year being profits) of retail stocks if this were the case?

I think reference to the fact that the holiday season is a very big season for retail and that Black-Friday is consider to be the accountancy meaning of 'in the black' is reasonable, but maybe this is a little too much without reference? ny156uk 10:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a quote from a 1990 newspaper article specifying the accounting meaning. Note that this merely ascribes the term to the supposition that retailers operate in the red until Black Friday; it is not authority for the claim that retailers in fact operate in the red until then, nor do I suppose that to be generally the case (though there are probably some for whom it is true). Unfortunately, I don't have the text of the 1982 ABC News report. John M Baker 15:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Friday is my bitch

Why does the phrase "Black Friday is my bitch" appear in this article?

[edit] Other Countries

Since Black Friday is defined as the day after Thanksgiving, it's a uniquely American day. What heralds in the Christmas season in other countries, and causes retailers to shift into high gear? Is it the same day? It might be interesting to add that info to the article. --208.204.155.241 15:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)