Talk:Bioconversion of biomass to mixed alcohol fuels

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[edit] Patented Process?

Is this process patented? Please include this information in the article.

--It sure is patented. I added the word "patented" as per your request Alex. Thanks. Cesar 09:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This comment wasn't mine! I added the environment link. The article is very close to being an advert for the MixAlco process so other people may wish its deletion. You may wish to consider if there is an article it can be a sub heading under. Personally I'm not too bothered as I think it's interesting and my field is waste treatment technology.--Alex 08:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a proper link to the the patent itself, -fact reference-, it is unlikely that such a widerange patent is granted. Mion 10:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Done. Mion 13:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Also Mion there are MANY MANY more patents pending. Ag2003 22:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, you can add them in the patents section. Mion 10:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Naw.. let's just keep the granted patents for now. Ag2003 11:00, 24 september 2006 (UTC)
Alex, Excuse the confusion. This article is only informative, nothing else. It is another way for producing cellulosic biofuels. I take well that Mion removed the inventor's name. Ag2003 22:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
You removed the inventor name yourself, its back again.Mion 08:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed it from the Patent section, but after you had first removed it from the introduction. That is what I was talking about.

Ag2003 8:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussions

[[1]] [[2]]Mion 12:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stage of development

There is no timestamp on this citation, Mion 14:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC) Thanks for the timestamp, is there any reference link to confirm that statement ?. Mion 08:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

There isn't. I just happen to know about it. In any case, that timestamp is tentative. Ag2003 08:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Efficiency

more energy from the biomass will end up as liquid fuels than in converting biomass to ethanol fuel.

Is this statement confirmed ? Mion 14:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is confirmed, and it is also explained why. Cellulosic ethanol made by saccharifying holocellulose (i.e., cellulose and hemicellulose) to make glucose and xylose followed by yeast fermentation will produce 2 molecules of ethanol per every molecule of sugar plus CO2. The undigested biomass, which is mostly lignin, must be burned to make electricity and it cannot be added to the fuel. If you go the acetic acid route, then you make 3 molecules of Acetic acid with no CO2 production. Then if you gasify the lignin, you get the lignin energy in the form of H2 which can be added to the acetic acid to obtain 3 molecules of Ethanol overall. So you see, if you make 100% acetic acid, then your yield will be 50% higher (i.e., 3 molecules of ethanol as opposed to 2). The MixAlco process makes 75% acetic acid (the rest is higher acids which are made with CO2 production); thus, you will end up with about 40% higher alcohol yields on an energy basis. I hope this is clear. Ag2003 22:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Please ad referencelinks for confirmation.Mion 08:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Mion, you don't need links. The chemistry is clear. Ethanol fermentation is chemically limited to only 2 molecules of ethanol per molecule of glucose and you cannot add more energy to it. Acetic acid fermentation, followed by hydrogenation, produces 3 molecules of ethanol per molecule of glucose, thus you end up with 50% higher yield (both in energy and mass). Ag2003 08:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Company Name

I have to clarify something. MixAlco is the name of the process, not the name of the company. The company that HOLDS the licence to the MixAlco process is Terrabon, L.L.C. (I am not sure if I am allowed to say their name even here in the discussion section, so you may delete it if such is the case) Ag2003 1:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fact

I'm sure your contributions are honoust, but I need external reference links for the statements, and than not links to statements made by Dr. Mark Holtzapple or G. P. van Walsum. reg. Mion 10:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Links to what statements exactly? To the timestamp? If so, then I cannot provide those. Ag2003 8:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Thats ok, the timestamp issue can be checked in time, but the whole idear is from 1999 and now it is 2006, not much progress is made. Mion 11:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Also is missing a conformation link on the efficiency statement of the process. Mion 10:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The efficiency of the process is not mentioned anywhere. WHat is mentioned is a comparison of the theoretical yield (maximum yield as allowed by chemistry) of acetic acid fermentation (which is the type of fermentation used in the MixAlco process) and ethanol fermentation. To this, as I mentioned, you don't need links because, again, the chemistry is clear. Ag2003 8:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
it is ensured that more energy from the biomass will end up as liquid fuels, i need some external confirmation here, just pop up the 20 external links. reg . Mion 11:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, you don't need any links. The chemistry says so. Do you understand the chemistry? Ethanol fermentation cannot make more than 2 molecules of ethanol per molecule of glucose. THe undigested residue is then just burned to make electricity for the plant and to export it to the grid, thus the energy in the undigested residue never makes it to the liquid fuel. In Acetic acid fermentation + hydrogenation, on the other hand, 3 molecules of ethanol per molecule of glucose are obtained. THe H2 is obtained from gasification of the undigested residue, thus some of the energy of the undigested residue makes it into the liquid fuel, which can't be the case with ethanol fermentation. ONe thing must be clear.. THis is not the efficiency but only a comparison of the theoretical YIELDS. Even the DOE agrees with this, as they are supporting the so-called ZeaChem indirect route to ethanol, which is basically acetic acid fermentation followed by hydrogenation, with H2 obtained from undigested product (if ethanol is made from glucose/xylose obtained by enzymatic hydrolysis), sugarcane bagasse (if ethanol is made from sugar from sugarcane) or corn stover (if ethanol is made from corn). Just google ZeaChem. Ag2003 10:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
no i have no clue about chemistry, thats why I ask external control references that we are still lacking, expert opinion is needed.-:) reg.Mion 14:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
no i have no clue about chemistry
Ohh that explains it. Then how good an external link will do you, since the link will simply state the very same thing based on chemistry. Ethanol fermentation produces theoretically 2 molecules of ethanol per molecule of sugar (i.e., 2 lb of ethanol per pound of sugar). It could produce less, but it cannot produce more because it would break the laws of chemistry and physics. Acetic acid fermentation followed by Hydrogenation, on the other hand, produces theoretically 3 molecules of ethanol per molecule of sugar (i.e., 3 lbs of ethanol per pound of sugar fermented). So it is clear that 3 lbs of ethanol is 50% more energy and mass than 2 lbs of ethanol produced by the ethanol fermentation. Ag2003 15:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
yes, the statement about the higher yield is clear, try me with the requested link -:).Mion 20:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
OK. How about this http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/841137-u4bFGI/841137.PDF#search=%22Acetic%20acid%20route%20ZeaChem%22. The ZeaChem process is based on the acetic acid route because of this reason. They start with free sugars and they ferment to acetic acid instead of ethanol because of the higher yields. Ag2003 17:21, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changing title

MixAlco process (old) to Biofuels and Chemicals from Biomass ? Mion 10:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC) or: Biomass Conversion ? Mion 11:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC) or Biomass conversion to mixed alcohol fuels.Mion 11:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

MixAlco process is how this process is identified in the scientific community. Any scientific article written about it calls it this way. You should not change the name. Thanks. Also, I must clarify, MixAlco is the name of the process not the company. There is no company named MixAlco.

Ag2003 01:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, discussion was going that way to keep the title as it is, (Biomass conversion to mixed alcohol fuels also known as the MixAlco process), would be better, but the way you are putting the name repetitive in the article it is commercial spamming which would end up that the whole article might end up on the deletion list. MixAlco isn't a company name, but its a name used for commercial branding.Mion 08:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree. MixAlco is not even a TRADE MARK. As I said, is the name given to this process and it is how it is known in the scientific community. There are more than 20 technical articles published about it in well-renowned scientific journals, where commercial spamming is not allowed as well, and they have NO problem with that. Regarding putting the name many times in the article it has to do with keeping clarity. Just by putting "the process", like you were doing it just does not cut it. I can give you many examples here in wikipedia of the same situation. Quickly check out for instance Raney Nickel. "Raney" is even the TRADEMARK given to this catalyst belonging to W. R. Grace and Company, and they use the name to keep clarity more than 20 times in the article, and that is because RANEY NICKEL is the name given to this catalyst in the scientific community. or should the "Raney nickel" article also be deleted for using the TRADEMARK name so many times? Ag2003 08:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Just because a name is not a registered trademark it does not mean it is not a commercial plug. If it was trademarked and well established it may have more justification as the title of the whole article. I.e. Coca-cola. The academic articles do not give justification for the article to be a commercial plug, they give proof of the science behind it. These are two different issues.--Alex 08:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


20 technical articles published about it in well-renowned scientific journals
I am expecting 20 external links here.Mion 10:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Fine. Some of them you will not find on the web. I will paste them here and you will paste them in the article since you are the one insisting on this.
- van Walsum, G. Peter; Flatt, Michael; Doyle, Erin; Adapala, Reddy. Application of the mixalco process to in-situ conversion of dairy manure and chipped yard waste for production of fuels and chemicals. AIChE Annual Meeting, Conference Proceedings, Cincinnati, OH, United States, Oct. 30-Nov. 4, 2005 (2005), 371e/1-371e/14. CODEN: 69ICFK AN 2006:531274 CAPLUS.
This one is already in the external links of the article.
- Agbogbo, Frank K.; Holtzapple, Mark T. Fermentation of rice straw/chicken manure to carboxylic acids using a mixed culture of marine mesophilic microorganisms. Applied Biochemistry and Biotechnology (2006), 129-132 997-1014. CODEN: ABIBDL ISSN:0273-2289. CAN 144:410901 AN 2006:397689 CAPLUS
2006-My own publicationApplied Biochemistry and Biotechnology Humana press:from Holtzapple, Mark T.
- van Walsum, G. Peter; Flatt, Michael; Doyle, Erin; Massengale, Rene. On-site acidogenic fermentation of cattle manure for production of chemical feedstocks via the MixAlco process. Abstracts of Papers, 227th ACS National Meeting, Anaheim, CA, United States, March 28-April 1, 2004 (2004), CELL-058. CODEN: 69FGKM AN 2004:222104 CAPLUS
2004-Abstract-from G. P. van Walsum
- Domke, Susan B.; Aiello-Mazzarri, Cateryna; Holtzapple, Mark T. Mixed acid fermentation of paper fines and industrial biosludge. Bioresource Technology (2003), Volume Date 2004, 91(1), 41-51. CODEN: BIRTEB ISSN:0960-8524. CAN 140:234455 AN 2003:841864 CAPLUS
2003-My own publication:from Holtzapple, Mark T.
- Thanakoses, Piyarat; Mostafa, Nagat Abd Alla; Holtzapple, Mark T. Conversion of sugarcane bagasse to carboxylic acids using a mixed culture of mesophilic microorganisms. Applied Biochemistry and Biotechnology (2003), 105-108 523-546. CODEN: ABIBDL ISSN:0273-2289. CAN 139:67846 AN 2003:355116 CAPLUS
2003-My own publication:from Holtzapple, Mark T.
- Holtzapple, Mark T.; Davison, Richard R.; Ross, M. Kyle; Aldrett-Lee, Salvador; Nagwani, Murlidhar; Lee, Chang-Ming; Lee, Champion; Adelson, Seth; Kaar, William; Gaskin, David; Shirage, Hiroshi; Chang, Nan-Sheng; Chang, Vincent S.; Loescher, Mitchell E. Biomass conversion to mixed alcohol fuels using the MixAlco process. Applied Biochemistry and Biotechnology (1999), 77-79(Twentieth Symposium on Biotechnology for Fuels and Chemicals, 1998), 609-631. CODEN: ABIBDL ISSN:0273-2289. CAN 131:118329 AN 1999:416297 CAPLUS
1999-My own publication:from Holtzapple, Mark T.
- Holtzapple, M. T.; Ross, M. K.; Chang, N.-S.; Chang, V. S.; Adelson, S. K.; Brazel, C. Biomass conversion to mixed alcohol fuels using the MixAlco process. ACS Symposium Series (1997), 666(Fuels and Chemicals from Biomass), 130-142. CODEN: ACSMC8 ISSN:0097-6156. CAN 127:7015 AN 1997:335439 CAPLUS
1997-Been to a symposium: Holtzapple, Mark T.
- Holtzapple, M. T.; Loescher, M.; Ross, M.; Rapier, R.; Ghandi, J.; Burdick, S. Biomass conversion to mixed alcohols. Book of Abstracts, 211th ACS National Meeting, New Orleans, LA, March 24-28 (1996), BTEC-015. CODEN: 62PIAJ AN 1996:217410 CAPLUS
1996-Abstract: Holtzapple, Mark T.
- Aiello-Mazzarri, Cateryna; Coward-Kelly, Guillermo; Agbogbo, Frank K.; Holtzapple, Mark T. Conversion of municipal solid waste into carboxylic acids by anaerobic countercurrent fermentation. Effect of using intermediate lime treatment. Applied Biochemistry and Biotechnology (2005), 127(2), 79-93. CODEN: ABIBDL ISSN:0273-2289. CAN 144:238379 AN 2005:1244968 CAPLUS
2005-My own publicationApplied Biochemistry and BiotechnologyHumana press:from Holtzapple, Mark T.
- Aiello-Mazzarri, Cateryna; Agbogbo, Frank K.; Holtzapple, Mark T. Conversion of municipal solid waste to carboxylic acids using a mixed culture of mesophilic microorganisms. Bioresource Technology (2005), Volume Date 2006, 97(1), 47-56. CODEN: BIRTEB ISSN:0960-8524. CAN 144:93175 AN 2005:980778 CAPLUS
2005-My own publicationBioresource Technology VNU:from Holtzapple, Mark T.

Before I continue getting more articles, are you really going to put them in the main article? Thanks for your answer. Ag2003 10:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I asked for reference links to articles on the subject which are not from Holtzapple, Mark T or van Walsum, G. Peter, Bioresource Technology from the VNU isn't a trusted source, and humana press ?. reg. Mion 12:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let us end this here, as this is taking us nowhere.. First of all, no, if you read above, you asked for technical articles and I gave you technical articles. Somewhere else you asked for reference links which are not from Holtzapple or van Walsum, the two professors/researchers (one from Texas A&M and the other from Baylor) that have been working on this process and who know more about it than anybody else. I don't know why would you want that, as this article is merely informative as to what is the MixAlco process and a summary of its details and it is not meant to cause controversies... Secondly, you say that "Bioresource Technology", one of the most respected and well-renowed peer-reviewed scientific journals is NOT a trusted source.. come on!!.. Thirdly, why do you say "my own publication"?. Just to let you know I am NOT Mark Holtzapple. Ag2003 12:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

My own publication is from the view of the patenters and publishers of this whole process, now for new inventions it is logical that it is hard to find proper references/reflections on a recently innovated process, the article states that its running since 1991, so why is the rest of the community not responding/taking it up ? Mion 13:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

the article states that its running since 1991, so why is the rest of the community not responding/taking it up ?
Those involved in industry know very well that for any innovative process using unconventional raw materials and new methods and making new products, to get to be a well-established process takes some good 30 years from the time laboratory testing starts to the time a full scale commercial plant is built and functioning. I can give you many examples of this. There are however, in some cases, circumstances that might accelerate things. In the case of the MixAlco process, and all the other biofuel-from-biomass processes, the recent high energy prices, are speeding up things. Ag2003 15:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gents, personally I agree with Mion Biomass conversion to mixed alcohol fuels seems like a better, more encyclopedic title with a subreference to the MixAlco process in the main text. I also consider that if the author of this article was neutral there would not be an issue with the title being changed to allow readers greater understanding or the subject. I consider the multiple references to MixAlco in the text as a commercial plug. I believe this should be kept to perhaps 1 or 2Alex 08:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What is being described in this article is THE MixAlco process and NO OTHER process. Many technical articles have been written about it in well-renowned scientific journals and many presentations in biotechnology symposiums have been given and that is the name that has been given to it and how it is known in the biotechnology/scientific community. To change the title and not mention it will cause confusion. You say: "biomass conversion can be achieved by systems such as the MixAlco process", then what is being described IS the MixAlco process and no other process. To me it makes no sense. I'll go with the title change for now as long as it says Biomass bioconversion to mixed alcohol fuels (as there is a way to make Mixed Alcohols by gasification followed by fisher tropsch) and, because it is the MixAlco process that is being described and no other process, where it says "can be accomplished by systems such as the MixAlco process" it is changed to "is accomplished by the MixAlco process" becuase what is EXTENSIVELY described afterwards IS the MixAlco Process and NO other process. I would like to hear more people's opinion on this regard other than Alex and Mion. If I don't hear from anyone else or the opinion is that it should be kept as is, then I will revert. Ag2003 09:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
As we are not allowed to reflect, we have to give other readers the opportunity to do so, so we have to give it a timespan, lets say , 6 months ? . reg Mion 14:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, the title might as well be left as is, as it is more descriptive of what this process is about. Ag2003 17:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I am glad you have finally understood our point. The fisher tropsch process has been long commercialised. The MixAlco process has not as yet got further than pilot scale. If the system becomes widely used and well known and accepted I would have no objections to the article being named as such. At present I do not believe this is the case and a descriptive title would be more helpful to readers. It is not a personal criticism as it is a good and interesting article--Alex 08:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes Alex, I agree with you I think the title is more descriptive of what is being done. Although I never talked about Fischer Tropsch, but about Raney Nickel as an article that is using it TRADEMARK name in the title, I also accept those are well established technologies. On the other hand, just to show you, here in wikipedia you find Iogen Corp., which is a company that is also starting to get established in the biofuel industry, by producing cellulosic ethanol with enzymes followed by yeast fermentation. They are NOT even commercial yet, but they are only in the R&D stages. Yet, no one is changing their name, title or the like. Their process is extensively explained in the same page. In any case, let's just leave it at that. Ag2003 5:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

If you have concerns relating to the Iogen Corp. article perhaps you should raise them. On the face of it it seems that this particular company is well established and has been trading since the 70s. The article doesnt relate to the process which isn't yet developed, instead the company which is developing it.

Now the article is less promotional I have added links to this article via List of solid waste treatment technologies, butanol fuel & ethanol fuel. You may want to also include links on Timeline of alcohol fuel and cellulosic ethanol.

--Alex 12:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

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