Talk:Bhatra

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Contents 1 Suggestions 2 Great work!! 3 Martyrs, music, film etc. 4 Recent edits 5 2 questions 6 All Answers 7 Reasons for restoring an earlier version 8 Edit 9 Various traditions about origins 10 Descended from Raja Shiv Nabh 11 Professions of immigrant Bhatra around 1950 12 Please leave some explanation of edits 13 Third opinion, please 14 Haraj Singh Sharma and Baljit Singh Rama 15 Administrator drops by

[edit] Suggestions

Hi! I think this is an interesting subject for an article. Things you might add:

• You could explain the difference between Bhatra and other British Sikhs.
• Are Bhat and Bhatra the same?
• How do the Radaswami fit in? Are they different from Bhatra?
• Names of books which people could use for further information - it is important for Wikipedia to have references.
• More on traditional customs - what is Bhakera? What is Nasha made of?

I did some copy-editing, and hope I didn't twist anything round the wrong way. --HJMG 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great work!!

I am so pleased that the AfD inspired a community cleanup. Am I allowed to remove the AfD or is that to be left to the administrators? Kukini 17:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrs, music, film etc.

Thanks to the anonymous editor who contributed some interesting material a few days ago. Some of this is probably covered in other Wikipedia articles about Sikhism, Punjabi culture and elsewhere, so I cut it down while I was working on the article. I guess the main focus here should be on things that are specifically about Bhatra. --HJMG 16:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

Dear 84.43.40.193, Aranoo and other recent contributors/ editors

Thank you for bringing new ideas to this article. Some of your additions meant further work was needed. These are the main reasons:

• It is very important not to break copyright laws by copying other people's work. I have rewritten some of the material taken from elsewhere on the internet: for example, http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082004/ceylon_guru_nanak.htm, http://www.sikhspectrum.com/letters/letters_18.htm and http://www.freewebs.com/bhatline/whoarethebhatsikhs.htm (The last two are not reliable sources, so we need to find better references anyway.)
• We need to take a scholarly approach to traditions, just as the Sikh Encyclopedia does when it says "more than one story is current about their origin". And we cannot make it look as if M.S. Ahluwalia said things he didn't say.
• We need references for anything which is not common knowledge. There are still some improvements needed in the sources you've used - for instance, we cannot use forums or our own Wikipedia articles, and must try to cite writing from good publishers, or in some cases good-quality newspapers or websites run by reputable organisations. (BBC, for example) If you take a look at WP:RS you'll see more about what sources are considered suitable. (Even though not all our articles have good sources yet, there is a lot of work going on to achieve this.)

Your contributions are interesting and I've tried to fit your material into the article. (And you inspired me to go and find that map of Guru Nanak's journeys!) You may be interested to know that I helped to keep this article in Wikipedia when it was being considered for deletion.(see here) After working hard to make it suitable for an encyclopaedia, I hope you'll realise that I want there to be a good article on the Bhatra community - so let's make sure it meets the guidelines.

Please do spend some time looking through the help pages to get used to Wikipedia's ways of working. And you may like to look at some featured articles which give an idea of the quality we should be aiming for: Sikhism is one of them.

Thanks --HJMG 17:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2 questions

1 What book is it that gives a connection between Bhatra and Raja Shivnabh? Is it the Adi Granth ("bir of Bhanno (Adi Granth) you will find the name of Raja shivabh but more importantly you will find Bhatra sikhs being mentioned"? Or is it a Janam Sakhi? ("The Janamsakhis also states that the Raja and Rani could not conceive child before the Gurus visit. The raja and Rani asked for there home to be blessed with an heir ,Guru Nanak granted this wish. The raja and Rani then become devout followers of Guru Nanak then proclaimed there after that Raja Shivnabh lineage would be named Bhat Sangat") If a Janam Sakhi, which one? I couldn't find anything to help with this question on http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

2 Are Punjabi Khbar and Punjab da khbar the same newspaper? Do they have a listing online or a website?

Thanks --HJMG 17:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All Answers

All Qusetions will be answerd by the 29 September of 2006 and will be updated on the page. Thanks~~User:84.43.40.193/84.43.40.19302:07 26 September 2006

That's good. :) In the meantime, I've put back a version with correct references and no copyright violations. --HJMG 08:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for restoring an earlier version

This article has been left for three days with many errors which were not there before, so I have restored the previous version. As well as style, grammar and formatting issues, these are a few of the other problems.

• We can't use (unattributed) sentences from Ahluwalia's work while distorting what he actually said.[1]
• We can't copy things from other websites without citing the source.
• We can't use forums as sources.
• We need to give an objective view and cannot present one community's traditional knowledge as universally accepted historical fact.

Also, the citation added for the information about Bhat+Ra is the Guru Granth Sahib, but I couldn't find it. Can anyone give the page number? Thanks --HJMG 18:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit

The article has been edited and problems fixed, if any other problem arise please state them in detail thank you :). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

Well, I wish all the problems had been fixed! :)

You may like to re-read the comments and questions above and read Wikipedia's policies and guidelines again.

Please don't give the reader a misleading impression of what's in the sources you cite. (Two examples are:

• you used the Sikh Encyclopedia as a reference for something it doesn't say, and left the sentence unfinished.
• You quote Ahluwalia selectively, omitting 2 key sentences, and attribute his words to Tawarikh-i-Sikhan.)

Please don't undo all the careful referencing again.

I think the second paragraph needs to be clear for the reader's sake. Adding remarks about Brahmins is confusing. Talking about the Khalsa breaks up the flow in this section - perhaps 17th century history of Bhatra warrior saints could go elsewhere in the article?

Thanks --HJMG 06:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly it is pointless restoring the old dated page as the new page contains new information that is pivotal in describing the Bhatra community, even if you believe there are structure mistakes or errors, it would be more productive if you added or edited the page instead of scraping the new page for the old.

Secondly I did not add the paragraph containing the Sikh encyclopaedia. Therefore I cannot change it or scrap it until I have looked at the Sikh encyclopaedia to verify if it is true or false.

I have found that by checking the source the information is correct however it is not as detailed as the encylopeadia further more from previous research this information seems to be correct.

Thirdly I know that information on the khalsa is clearly (key) important information therefore it should be included in the fist paragraph regardless if it is confusing to you or you think it breaks up the flow.

Fourthly I have edited what I can at the moment if you feel you can add or improve please do so. Thank you ;> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

I think you're suggesting that we work together constructively - I would be happy to do so - though I've been short of time in the last few days.

I will be as "productive" as possible and try to help people fit their contributions in with Wikipedia policies and style. (As I have done many times before!)

This time I will make changes one or two at a time, explaining my reasons in the 'edit summary'. You can reach this by clicking the 'history' tab next to the 'edit' tab. You can select buttons on two different versions to compare them. If you disagree with any edits, you could explain why on this talk page. Below I am setting out three different changes which I believe are necessary. I'll put them in separate threads for clarity.

OK - let's get this article as good as we can. :) --HJMG 10:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various traditions about origins

Since the Sikh encyclopedia is a reliable source with a clear statement about Bhatra origins, it seems right to put its comment about there being different theories at the beginning of the "origins" section so we can follow Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and make things clear for the reader. Thanks --HJMG 10:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Descended from Raja Shiv Nabh

Please could you find a citation for the tradition that Bhatra people are, or some believe they are, descended from Raja Shiv Nabh? The Janam Sakhis don't seem like a suitable source for this - I haven't been able to find a writer on the Janam Sakhis who mentions this - they mention both Changa Bhatra and Raja Shiv Nabh but don't tie them together. (See for example:[2]) If I am wrong, please could you explain or find a quote? Thanks --HJMG 10:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

From my studies of the Balas Janam Sakhis I have found that there is a direct ancestral linking with the bhatra and Raja Shiv Nabh, If you look at page 392 it clearly states that raja shivnabh linage and followers would be called the Bhatra Sangat due to Guru Nanaks gift to the Raja the is evidence can be found in Balas Janmsakis= sub tu vadi Janm sakhis translation the highest of all Janm sakhis. I b However as there is significant evidence supporting the theory of Baba Changa Rai it can also be considered that the Bhatra people may have descended from both Raja Shiv Nabh and Baba Changa Rai , as Guru Nanaks journey lead to many people becoming devout followers. There can be a good possibility that guru Nank proclaimed both followers as Bhatra, considering they where from the same area.

As both possibilities have been supported by evidence i feel that the ancestry of the Bhatra people should also be included in the first paragraph as this is critical information on the Bhatra people.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

That's interesting. I hadn't heard of this version of the Bala Janam Sakhi. Are you one of the first people to notice it mentions this link between the Bhat(ra) and the Raja? And by the way, does it say Bhat (as in the article) or Bhatra (as on this talk page)?--HJMG 09:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I am puzzled about why you haven’t heard about balas Janamsakhis as it is one of the most well known and popular Janamsakhis, I believe I’m not the first person to notice this link however I am obviously the fist person to state that I’ve noticed it on this talk page and article. The actual word mentioned is "Bhatra" .It may be beneficial if you were to take a look at janmsakhis your self if you require double verification. 8.52 19 oct 06—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.62.251.34 (talk • contribs) . who added the {{unsigned|84.43.40.193}} template.

I have indeed heard of the Bala Janamsakhis - but not of the version you mentioned: the "sub tu vadi".

I have looked at various sources offline and online but found no mention of Bhatra in the Janamsakhis apart from references to Changa Bhatra. The usual Janamsakhi stories of Raja Shiv Nabh and his disciples do not say they are the ancestors of the Bhatra. See for instance, [3], [4], and [5]

At the moment we have no verification of the tradition of the Raja as the "great-grandfather" of the Bhatra lineage and we may have to rewrite that part of the article, unless you cite a source which anyone with access to a good library or bookshop could verify.

So far, what we have is:

1. A tradition that Bhatra origins are in Sri Lanka (sourced) - with Sangladeep sometimes being given as the placename.
2. A tradition saying the Bhatra are descended from Changa Bhatra. (sourced)
3. A tradition saying Bhatra are descended from Guru Nanak's first group of disciples, possibly disciples surrounding the Raja, but not descended from him personally (unsourced so far, but this tradition seems to be known - for example this letter to a magazine).
4. A statement that there is more than one story of Bhatra origins. (sourced)
5. A well-known idea that Guru Nanak visited Sri Lanka, supported as historical fact by some scholars but not by all. (partly sourced, so far)

To follow encyclopedic standards and Wikipedia policies we probably need to rewrite the 'origins' section to offer this information more objectively, also bearing in mind that the Janamsakhis are not always accepted as accurate.--HJMG 17:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly a key piece of information about the heritage should not be taken off due to your personal lack of locating the Janmsakhis in question taking into account it has been sourced.

Secondly the accuracy of all the Janmsakhis are not our main concern, what is our concern is there true ancestry stated and if the Bhatra are actually mentioned in the Janmsakhis. we can never be 100% sure if any source is truly accurate, unless we were there at the time to witness the incident in question. We can merely state what has been written in published books ect.

Thirdly due to your lack of resources (library sources)if you would like I can take a digital picture of the page in question to allow your doubt to dissipate however I will not be able to find all and every source that you can not find your self. I would greatly appreciate it if you could go to grater length to find the source your self, as it very is time consuming.

Thank you

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) . 19 dec 06 11:48

I've been hoping you would say which book of janamsakhis you are referring to, so that anyone interested could follow it up. (See WP:V) The usual way is something like:

Author and/or Editor(s), Title, (Translator if relevant), Publisher (sometimes Place of publication) and Year of publication

This allows everyone to see what source you are using. (See the bibliography section of the article for examples) An exact quote (short) might be nice for the reader too. Hope this won't be too time-consuming, since you've already located the book. Thank you --HJMG 11:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I will get the details in a few days as accessing the Janmsakhis can sometimes be a problem as it is over 80 years old and is considered fragile by the holders.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) . 28 oct 06

Yes, I understand, and look forward to knowing more. One practical point - if this is a unique translation there may be problems if it is not available in any libraries as per WP:V. An alternative would be to find a reputable print source explaining how (many or all) Bhatra people have a tradition involving Raja Shivnabh. --HJMG 09:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello again - I'm afraid I'm still unhappy about the lack of verifiable sources linking the Bhatra and the Raja, so I'm requesting a third opinion .--HJMG 15:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello I’ve listed the publisher and name of the book in the article assuming that the name of the book and the publisher have been listed the section should not be removed.I enquired about the availability of this Janamsakhis and I have been told that there are many copies of this versions of the Janamsakhis however as the pages are treated with great respect (as are all Janamsakhis) it would not be available in a standard library it would have to be located in any of libraries in the Gurdwaras and specialised Sikh shops moreover I have been told that the Janamsakhis is a very well known Janamsakhis and that it is a perfectly reputable print,therefore it would not be hard to locate copies of it.

84.43.40.193 04:15 02/12/2006

Sorry - but this doesn't seem to be verifiable. I've checked some of the most comprehensive library and inter-library catalogues - Copac, WorldCat, LoC etc. - and also the Indian Opac and Panjab University library. I can't find any trace of Surdar Javar Singh, and I've tried alternative spellings like Sardar. Since the idea of a connection between the Raja and the Bhatra is not mentioned by the Sikh Encyclopedia nor by other writers on the janamsakhis, this is a serious problem. You could ask for a third opinion again, if you think I am misunderstanding things.--HJMG 13:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello I am completely shocked that you could not find any reference to the Janmsakhis (sub tu vadi Janmsakhis by Surdar Javar Singh) even though you went to such lengths to find the copy however never the less the information of the raja still stands as viable as it has been listed (name of book and author), just because you personally could not find the information does not mean it should be taken off, as many people may not find your problem therefore I will place the information back up on the page. I can only suggest that you may want to try broadening your search for the Janmsakhis, as you have shown keen interest in locating of the Janmsakhis I will personally aid you and send you digital pictures of the Janmsakhis then hopefully then your relentless quest in the verification of authenticity will subside and you will be able to accept the rajas key information. (Is there a e-mail address or some other method I can get the picture to you).

84.43.40.193 02:28 06/12/2006

Unfortunately, the info you have given doesn't seem to satisfy WP:V. Please ask for another opinion if you believe I am wrong. --HJMG 08:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello it would be point less consulting another opinion as there has already been an intervention by a third opinion which they stated " All arguments must be cited. If 84.43.40.193 cannot provide a source for his claims, they cannot be included, regardless of how accurate they are. Once a source is provided, the claims should be reincluded, and the source cited". As the source has been cited it should be included on the page (which is stated this in the opinion). However once again I offer to send you the digital pictures or any other method so that you could see the evidence, due to the reading of the evidence you may be able to find the copy of the Janamsakhis more easily as you will have the details of the copy first hand. Translating the old Punjabi into English can lead to the misspelling of the name of the publisher, writer, the name of the book and so on therefore the assessing of the evidence would be in your best interest.

Check WP:V and you'll see the 'citation' you have offered ("(Balas) Janamsakhis which is called sub tu vadi Janmsakhis translation, the highest of all janmsakhis By Surdar Javar Singh") doesn't meet the need to have a verifiable source available for anyone who cares to follow it up, and would not have been what the third opinion had in mind. Similarly, emailing somone a photographed page or cover wouldn't satisfy this requirement - but thanks for offering. There are citation templates here to give you an idea of the details expected. --HJMG 09:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Professions of immigrant Bhatra around 1950

Some opinions have been added to information taken from sources which do not agree with those opinions. The most important example is the idea that there were significant numbers of highly qualified Bhatra arriving in the UK around 1950. Several authors give a different picture, implying that the caste system in India would have denied Bhatra people the opportunity for higher education, and stating that the immigrants were salesmen. By the way, I agree very much about racial prejudice in the UK, but the books do not suggest it was a factor in Bhatra employment choices at that time. Thanks --HJMG 10:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Many Sikh, Asians regardless if they were bhatra, Brahmins ect who were unhappy with hereditary professions would seek higher education if there means would allow them entry into university ,It would be propostres to believe that every singly member of a cast stuck to there hereditary profession when they could attain higher paid jobs with the aid of higher education for example the earliest Gurdwara was made in 1940s there fore Sikhs would of had to be able to read and write English , Punjabi fluently for such things as contracts, accounts ect and the only way for a person to be able to read and write English fluently in India would of been through higher education therefore there is no doubt that there were educated bhatra as one of the earliest Gurdwara was founded by a bhatra . I know that this was not the case for the majority however there were a number of them and as every immigrating Asian regardless of there education were working as doorstep sales men it can be safely assumed that there were racial discrimination regarding jobs as it is also preposterous to think that Britain only had 1 job type available during this time and that all the Asian wanted to work as doorstep sales men even though this was the end of the second world war.

B.R.Ambedkar enforced the idea that casts who wanted higher education, would be backed by the government

In 1942, B.R.Ambedkar established the All India Depressed Classes federation to support the advancement of the scheduled castes. He also demanded reservations for the Scheduled castes in government services and education. After India attained independence, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar was appointed as the chairman of the drafting committee for the Indian constitution. The constitution included safeguards for depressed and other backward classes. The constitution came into effect from 26 January 1950. The Indian constitution prohibits any discrimination based on religion, race, caste, sex and place of birth . But, while providing equality of opportunity for all citizens, the constitution also contains special clauses to ensure reservation, "for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes". The Constitution initially required the reservation of seats in state legislatures to end after 10 years.

Although originally only supposed to last for 10 years, the Indian reservation system has continued till date, and applies to higher education and legislative office. Currently, 22.5% of the seats in higher education institutes under the central government are reserved for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

The date of the earliest Gurdwara was edited by another anon editor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.62.251.21 (talk • contribs) . (Thanks for your contribution - but next time please could you add your comment without changing what another person has written?)--HJMG 09:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It was me that changed it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.62.251.34 (talk • contribs) . who added the {{unsigned|84.43.40.193}} template.

I see what you mean about this. The trouble is that our encyclopedia articles have to reflect what's said in the best sources we can find. All the sources discussing the Bhatra as a group describe the community's experience in selling, though they say that some also went into manufacturing industry on arrival in the UK. (By the way, I haven't seen anyone suggesting that no Bhatra immigrants could read and write English.) The best way to leave open the idea that there were exceptions to the general trend is to add a sentence after the first paragraph mentioning the general context of employment difficulties for immigrants at that time. (Although this may be stretching Wikipedia policies.) Until we have a reliable source discussing highly-qualified Bhatra we can't include this in the article. But don't worry - I'm sure readers are intelligent enough to understand that there are always individuals in any community who don't stick to the norms.--HJMG 09:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly Im am not suggesting the Bhatra people could not read or write I am merely stating that they must of had a grater knowledge of English than the general immigrant that could of only been acquired from higher learning and from this grater knowledge it would of allowed them to construct and manage Gurdwaras during the 40s, as such things as planning permission accounts, racial prejudice which would of been obstacles. Therefore it is correct to believe that Bhatra people would have had a number of people with a higher education.

Secondly I do agree that the sources to back this information up are scares, however if the information can be accepted as obviously correct and with little doubt, there should be some mention of this information however small as it would be ridiculous to leave an important piece of information as we at the moment can not find the source for it even logic dictates it is correct.

Thirdly I think it would be wise not just to count on the reader to be intelligent enough to make assumptions. It would be in the best interest of the reader to include all the information. 21.40 19 oct 06—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.43.40.193 (talk • contribs) .

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.62.251.34 (talk • contribs) . who added the {{unsigned|84.43.40.193}} template.

Unfortunately, we have found no sources saying that there were highly-educated Bhatra immigrants arriving in the UK. --HJMG 17:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please leave some explanation of edits

When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:

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Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you.

[edit] Third opinion, please

The info offered by User:84.43.40.193 about the connection between Bhatra Sikhs and the Raja Shiv Nabh is:

"From my studies of the Balas Janam Sakhis I have found that there is a direct ancestral linking with the bhatra and Raja Shiv Nabh, If you look at page 392 it clearly states that raja shivnabh linage and followers would be called the Bhatra Sangat due to Guru Nanaks gift to the Raja the is evidence can be found in Balas Janmsakis= sub tu vadi Janm sakhis translation the highest of all Janm sakhis."

(In response to a request for details of the book being used) "I will get the details in a few days as accessing the Janmsakhis can sometimes be a problem as it is over 80 years old and is considered fragile by the holders." (28 Oct)

HJMG believes there should be a more easily verifiable source, and has pointed out:

"The usual Janamsakhi stories of Raja Shiv Nabh and his disciples do not say they are the ancestors of the Bhatra. See for instance, [6], (free registration required) [7], and [8]"

Thanks for any help with this. --HJMG 15:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

From WP:3o - All arguments must be cited. If 84.43.40.193 cannot provide a source for his claims, they cannot be included, regardless of how accurate they are. Once a source is provided, the claims should be reincluded, and the source cited. JBKramer 16:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
(This third opinion was deleted by 84.43.40.193 and restored by --HJMG 09:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

Thank you for responding so promptly. --HJMG 20:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello I’ve listed the publisher and name of the book in the article assuming that the name of the book and the publisher have been listed the section should not be removed.I enquired about the availability of this Janamsakhis and I have been told that there are many copies of this versions of the Janamsakhis however as the pages are treated with great respect (as are all Janamsakhis) it would not be available in a standard library it would have to be located in any of libraries in the Gurdwaras and specialised Sikh shops moreover I have been told that the Janamsakhis is a very well known Janamsakhis and that it is a perfectly reputable print,therefore it would not be hard to locate copies of it.

84.43.40.193 04:15 02/12/2006

As discussed above, this cannot be traced in major library catalogues. You describe Surdar Javar Singh as both "publisher" and "author", but I can find no reference to him.--HJMG 09:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haraj Singh Sharma and Baljit Singh Rama

Please could the person who contributed these names find some verification that they are famous Bhatra Sikhs? Thanks --HJMG 15:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Administrator drops by

Hello, I've been asked to provide some guidance here. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, the burden of evidence rests with an editor who wants to include information in an article. The standard at this site is that if something is true but not provable then another editor can delete it. A full standard reference to a book source would normally include its ISBN number. If that doesn't settle things I suggest you ask for more outside opinions through Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Regards, Durova^Charge! 23:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)