Talk:Bharatanatyam

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[edit] Languages Used

STOP MAKING BASELESS CLAIMS IN FAVOUR OF TAMIL...

while i do not disagree that tamil is also one of the languages used in bharatanatya, the claim that tamil is the language that is 'predominantly' used is probablly incorrect!! Avoid making incorrect claims... (Provide citations as needed)

bharatanatya is performed to karnatic(karnataka) music...and karnatic music was formulated and given a shape/grammar/syntax by the great Kannada saint and Father of Indian Classical Music, Shri. Puranadara Dasa...and Purandara Dasa composed *solely* in Kannada....

[edit] Tagging

The author is blatantly sticking to his cooked up theories and more cheeky, is accusing me of vandalism. I am new to wiki and didnt know of the talk page when i made my first few edits. Later I have discussed my concerns on the talk page too...but have met with stubborn silence. Hence tagging this page.

Issue being discussed

the author provides spurious 'proof' in the name of two links to advance his baseless argument tha BN originated in TN. my concerns vis a vis this so called 'proof' or links which supposedly 'seal' the deal are somewhere below on this page.

[edit] VANDALISM!!!=

STOP IT!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! ****PROVE**** TO ME BN ORIGINATED IN TN...I DONT CARE FOR "ALL THE BOOKS" U READ!!! THE LINK YOU HAVE GIVEN IS BULLSHIT!!! YES BULLSHIT!!! WIKI IS NOT YOUR PRIVATE BATHROOM TO ATTRIBUTE EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD TO TAMIL/TAMILIANS/TAMILNADU!!!

THE LINK THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN AND WHICH YOU SAY 'SEALS' THE MATTER, DOESNT SPEAK A WORD ABOUT BN'S ORIGINS!!! I AM REVERTING THIS AND IF YOU TELL ME ITS VANDALISM AM GOING TO THE ADMINS!!!

WHEN I CHANGED IT THE FIRS TIME U SAID I HAVE TO DISCUSS IT IN THE TALK PAGE BEFORE I REVERT....THEN I CAME AND POSTED IN THE TALK PAGE TOO. NO REPLY FROM YOU...THEN I CHANGED THE ARTICLE AND YOU COME AND TELL ME ITS VANDALISM!!! GO TAKE A JUMP!!'

[edit] Common spellings

Here is a result of Google searches for common misspellings of the name. This will be useful if in future there's a debate on whether this article needs to be redirected to any other spelling. Also if any other titles need to be redirected to this article. Search done on Aug 6. Jay 16:46, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"bharata natyam"	20,100
bharatanatyam	17,300
bharathanatyam	8,520
bharatnatyam	7,280
"bharat natyam"	3,700
"bharatha natyam"	3,210
bharathnatyam	428
"bharata nathyam"	94
"bharath natyam"	89
"bharatha nathyam"	38
"bharat nathyam"	19
bharatanathyam	14
bharathanathyam	5
bharatnathyam	4

Interesting to note that 18 months later, google finds about ten times as many pages. A striking indication of the growth of the Internet within certain communities. 80.0.184.11 01:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Yahoo search for

bharatnatyam	54,600
"bharata natyam"	35,600
bharatanatyam	33,300
bharathanatyam	26,400

[edit] Medha Hari

Never heard of this name. Also, why this ugly/advertising image is added here? --Rrjanbiah 09:55, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dear Rrjanbiah,

You need to learn more about the contemporary Bharatanatyam. And the picture is not at all ugly. -- 219.65.124.189 10:10, 8 Nov 2004

But, it definitely looks like a WikiSpam. The content of the articles and the pages linked to it [1] seems to confirm that. --Rrjanbiah 07:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Rrjanbiah,|Medha Hari web site pages provide non-commercial information for FREE Serge56

Hi Rrjanbiah! I looked in major directories (Open Directory, Looksmart, etc) and Medha Hari is listed there. Keep yourself updated. Geosammie 04:20, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Its not about being listed on many pages. I am a dancer myself and I looked at the pictures of the dancer. Sorry to say, I did not find them to be graceful or accurate especially the postures of the hips.

REPLY TO THE ABOVE: If you are a dancer, I want to see YOUR "graceful lines". I think you are just jealous of how graceful Medha Hari looks.

[edit] From Tamil Nadu?

Is Bharatanatyam orginated from Tamil Nadu? Someone at Tamil people added so. --Rrjanbiah 10:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dear Rrjanbiah,

It appears that you are not familiar with Bharatanatyam at all - 219.65.124.189 10:07, 8 Nov 2004

AFAIK, Bharathanatyam is a Telugu devadasi dance which was commercialized by brahmins like Rukmani Devi. But, neither this article nor any other artcile seems to say that it is Tamilians' dance. --Rrjanbiah 07:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

BharatanATya is a dance form of Karnataka. the very fact that it is Karnatik Music to which this dance form is performed proves this fact. Karnataka music or Carnatic music was structured by Sri Purandara Dasa, the great saint from Karnataka. It is to this structured and sophisticated musical form that BharatanATya is performed. Anyway, there is ABSOLUTELY no proof to the claim that it originated in TamilNadu. Wikipedia is not your DinaMani or Dinamalar or Nakkeeran to print/type anything and everything you like. Keep all your self advancing theories to your tabloids and your textbooks. Changing it.

Moreover, even history records the fact that the Kannada Hoysala queen, Shantala/Shantale was an acknowledged expert of this art long before Devadasis started performing in Andhra temples or Krishna and Rukmini brought it to the TN stage.

Partisan advertisement and promotional campaign on behalf of medha hari is clearly visible by the link and image of medha hari being put up on the page. In order that neutrality is attained such partisan publicity should not be overlooked. Is wikipedia an advertising platform ? Water Fish 11:37, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

For Rrjanbiah: you are Telugu, aren't you? - there is no place for nationalism on Wikipedia

For Water Fish: I do not perceive adding relevant content as SPAM. External links are supported for enriching elements (such as the multimedia content). Before deleting anything, you better think of the benefit of the reader: will the photo be a valuable illustration? Will external links be a valuable extention of Wikipedia? --User:RalphWWW

I agree with Ralph Serge56

Almost all the articles and books I have read say it is from Thanjavur in Tamil Nadu. A simple google search shows a number of pages. Have to revert. I think this article from The Hindu should seal it. http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/06/25/stories/2003062500230100.htm Please stop reverting...

- Cribananda 07:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

this article from Hindu seals *nothing*. It does not speak a single word about Bharatanatya's origins. And even if it did, the author of that article is far from the last word on the subject. STOP MAKING ARBITRARY CLAIMS AND PASSING OFF SPURIOUS LINKS AS PROOF!!. reverting it.

[edit] Advertisement vandalism

Hi, Water Fish and Rrjanbiah. I do not understand why you add external links to other Wikipedia articles but at the same time you are only so good as to indiscriminately erase all external links from the Bharatanatyam article.

I personally added the Mudras.

- It has nothing to with 'advertising'
- It has nothing to do with Medha Hari and your hatred towards her

I added the link because most mudras on that site are given short descriptions and photos.

If you continue to erase all the external links indiscriminately (that's vandalism), I will complain to the admins.

Bharata natyam 14:40, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi, 219.65.124.*** also called as User:Geosammie, also called as User:Serge56 also called as User:RalphWWW. It is incredible to make three user pages within a span of 24 hours. People in the wikipedia knows how vandals operate. One is allowed to have multiple id but not to lobby for their own views or advertisement.

By definition, linking to webpages devoted to the promotion of a single dancer is spam. It is surely not helpful and is definitely advertisement. Moreover the wikipedia gives bibliography to textbooks dealing with topics. These Reference textbooks are not spam, they are treatise on a subject.

listing on open directory or Looksmart page or Google and professional directories like Narthaki.com, can be done, it is never taken as a criterion to validate authenticity or to be listed on an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia is well aware of such acts by people to legitimise their personal views.

Besides being featured 3 or more times in a newspaper or television is not a criterion to be on an encyclopedia. Many major newspapers and TV channels throughout the world promote young dancers by writing and presenting about them more than one time. if one was to make encyclopedia article about all of them, then they do not even qualify half as much as the virtuosos from conservatories around the world. But wikipedia does not entertain articles even about those virtuosos from great universities.

Medha Hari is probably a young dancer, and definitely not a major dancer. If that is enough criterion to be written about on the wikipedia, then in that case every music student in Julliard School and music conservatories and ballets would have to be written about, and that is definitely not meant for the wikipedia. Water Fish 06:25, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Deleting other users' comments is inappropriate.

Re: "linking to webpages devoted to the promotion of a single dancer is spam"

I guess it is not "promotion": the first link gives an extended overview of the subject matter, and the second link provides the free video illustrations to the article.

I welcome Water Fish to list other 13-year-old Bharatanatyam "virtuosos from conservatories around the world" if he cares to find any: with the details info on their style and online videos.

I would like to say that Water Fish is not familiar with the topic.

The classical dance column in the national newspaper the Hindu is similar to the Dance Magazine. Any 13-year-old dancer who is reviewed 3 times in the Dance Magazine would be worthy of being listed on Wikipedia.

says who?? says who?? says who??

JuliaJ 09:06, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There are several or should I say numerous young people far younger than age of 13 who are virtuosos. A lot of the students in Julliard School are below 8 and 9 years old. Several articles about these kids come in the New York Times and other prominent newspapers around the world. To write article in an encyclopedia about a person, the person has not only to be a virtuoso but also stand the test of time. That is the reason one does not find articles written about just anybody who is famous. An encyclopedia article is written about a person who retains brilliance over a long time. If a young talent lasts for several decades with the same brilliance then an article could be written about that person. Just being a prodigy does not qualify. One needs to retain that virtuosity for decades before receiving lasting acclaim.

The wikipedia has artilce about prodigies who retained brilliance over decades. Violinists like Yehudi Menuhin were prodigies. Infact Yehudi Menuhin gave his first performance when he was 7 years old. But his entry into an encyclopedia was made only after several decades of continious performance. Water Fish 11:41, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Promoting young artists is good but refering to them as iconic dancers is Pov. If a picture of ones close ones is put up then it should only be described as a dancer without giving name and without presenting that person as a prominent artist, because that comes about after decades of consistent brilliance. Water Fish 11:41, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is disputable whether "decades of consistent brilliance" are required for one to be recognized as a virtuoso and a prominent dancer. Dancers, after the "decades of consistent brilliance", usually leave the stage, and can no longer be referred to as dancers but as dance teachers and "past celebrities".
- You cannot compare western ballet dancers with Bharatanatyam dancers. Bharatanatyam is a spiritual discipline, and has nothing to do with ballet, frankly speaking.
- As for "a prominent artist", one has to look at the list of the artiste's awards, performances, and public recognition in general. If nobody can recognize the name of Yehudi Menuhin in India, likewise, very few may be familiar with the names of the Indian Bharatanatyam prominent artistes.
  - says who?? says who?? says who?? ...Medha Hari is not well known even in India. why well known, she is not even known as an artist. 99 out of 100 people wouldnt even have heard her name...this is nothing by cheap and blatant advertisement

Regarding "99 out of 100 people wouldnt even have heard her name", I have to say that 9 of 16 people whom I know know some things about Bharatanatyam DO KNOW MEDHA HARI as an excellent dancer. Of course, if by those "99 out of 100 people" was meant a group of Texas cowboys who spent most of their lives in bars...

Thegist 04:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Comments moved from WP:RFPP

Under attack from users Water Fish and Rrjanbiah who indiscriminately erase (but do not add anything) all external links section. The external links contain highly relevant, unique and valuable resources (text, photo and web video). ----Bharata natyam 20:27, 15 Nov 2004

The so called Bharatanatyam external links and Bharatanatyam resources are advertisement and partisan promotion of a dancer named Medha Hari. Such spam cannot be used as a link in the wikipedia. The wikipedia is not a platform for advertisement and promotions. The purpose of these links is to promote the sales of cds and a young performer who is not even a major dancer.

the inward links to page Medha hari has probably been created by the same author, it is very easy to create several links to a spam on the wikipedia. One should not be deceived by them.

the user id User:RalphWWW, User:Geosammie, User:Serge56 User:JuliaJ, User:Thegist, User:Bharata natyam were all created since 13th november 2004. It seems they are all created by the same person who has done considerable vandalism from 219.65.124.***;

   Rrjanbiah/Water Fish,
   why do you delete wholesale the whole secion of the external links? Most of these links 
   have nothing to do with Medha Hari.    
   I personally added a link to the Mudra's web site that you erased.
        So, what is the point?
   The point is that Rrjanbiah-Water Fish erases everything wholesale. 
   Myself, I never 'deleted the reference texts'.
   
   Bharata natyam 02:59, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey, User:Water Fish,User:Rrjanbiah

did you realize that 13th november was because normal people, who work on weekdays, may like to browse the Web on weekends????

Serge56 04:36, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Graphics

Oh, my dear! Does anybody know when Rrjanbiah is going learn how to insert a picture without distorting the aspect ratio so that the picture looks rather ugly? :-)

Or is he doing it on purpose?

Does anybody find the other image (screenshot of thumbnails) to be appropriate here?

I need a big magnifying glass to see anything!

Cheers!

217.172.70.182 13:06, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey,

I edited this page, Medha Hari's picture is on this once, but I put photos of some well known dancers including Mahalakshmi and G.Narerndran.

gitac2s

[edit] Neutral pov

I'm going to work on moving this article to a neutral point of view. Any help is appreciated. Cribananda 23:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It IS from Tamil Nadu and here are the links

I hope the bbc and The Hindu websites are proof enough, and that this will seal the controversy. Before reverting PLEASE CITE YOUR SOURCE. I'm getting tired of this...

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mp/2003/06/25/stories/2003062500230100.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/features/2003/03/annapurna_dance_03.shtml#theorigin

Cribananda 07:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

like the other user says, the hindu article does not speak abou BN's origins at all. so dont cite that for reference. it does not mean anything.

as for the bbc article, it only talks about some Lord Shiva/cosmic dance legend/mythology. Legend and mythology isnt exactly history and is far from a verifiable fact. India is a land of a zillion legends and unending mythology....every state/city/town/village has its own legends. So dont confuse issues to suit your convenience.

also the bbc article only says that the original manual is *NOW* in tanjore. it doesnt mean it was written in tanjore. and even if a manual is written in tanjore doesnt mean the art form should have originated there. and there is not way to say if that was the only copy of the manual that ever was written or existed...several such manuals might have been written in different places across india and they might just have been lost.

Remove that claim. if you persist with your unsubstantiated claims that will give the licence to anybody to make any unsubstantiated claims...and when they do that if you complain of vandalism, that i should say is cheeky...not to mention, juvenile.

Bharatanatyam is real. Anyone in south india and sri lanka can tell this.

It is very famous. I cannot cite sources as it is a local tradition, If anyone feels it is a hoax,they should come to south india. Ask anyone from south india ,they would have seen bharathanatyam. It is a very difficult dance to perform. Pojojo 05:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Degree Program in Bharatanatyam?

A degree programme for Indian dance (Bharatanatyam) has been created by the Alagappa Performing Arts Academy (APAA) of California, USA and the Alagappa University, Karaikudi, India. The courses offered include: Certificate in Bharatanatyam (one-year programme), Associate Degree in Bharatanatyam (Two-year programme), Diploma in Bharatanatyam (three-year programme) and B.A. degree in Bharatanatyam (four-year programme). For more info, contact: info@alagappaarts.com,More info on the degree programme is available at http://www.bharathanatyamonline.com.

This sounds a LOT like an advertisement for the college that offers a degree in Bharatanatyam. I propose changing the section to simply say "The popularity of Bharatanatyam is evident from the fact that some universities even offer full degree programs in it."Adityan 18:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we have to request the Alagappa Performing Arts Academy to stop their commerical spam on Wikipedia. Prabhujee 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slapping a hoax tag on a page is not an appropriate action because you disagree with one statement on it

[edit] I guess anyone would like to take credit for this ancient art

For the past 20 years i always taught Bharatanatyam was one of Thamils greatest cultural contribution to Indian culture. I guess nationalism,or better southern nationalism, wins.

http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/dance/index.htm

[edit] My reverts

I would like to know what commends this image to its partisans. Some poster painter's garish folly, it arguably depicts an acrobat rather than a dancer. Look at the graceless contortion of the right leg. Is there any Bharatanatyam bangima which requires the knee to be placed on the ground and the foot raised into the air?? Such crap. Please do not revert. ImpuMozhi 12:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear ImpuMozhi, regarding Bharatanatyam bangima, I would like to note that this particular image is valuable as it illustrates the particularities of the Mellatur (Mangudi) style of Bharatanatyam. You cannot expect everyone to display the Kalakshetra-style postures.

Far too many images, looks like spamming of one URL; I've removed the majority -- Samir धर्म 00:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Bharata Natayam and Tamil Nadu

Is there a reason why you keep taking Tamil Nadu out of this article? Kuchipuddi is the dance of Andra Pradesh, Mohiniattam and Katha Kali are the dances of Kerala, and Bharata Natayam is the dance of Tamil Nadu. Is that so hard to comprehend? All the description of the other Classical dances of India explain what state it is from. You make it seem like it is an offence to post that its origins have its roots from Tamil Nadu. Come on now... Wiki Raja 00:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Here are a list of Classical dances of India which mention the state it came from.

Kathakali (Malayalam:കഥകളി ) is a form of Indian dance-drama. It originated in the Indian state of Kerala during the  [17th]

 century C.E.

Kuchipudi (కుచిపుడి) is a classical dance form from Andhra Pradesh, a state of South India.

Manipuri dance is one of the major Indian classical dance forms. It originates from Manipur, a state in north-eastern  India

Mohiniaattam (also spelled as mohiniattam or mohiniyattam; Malayalam: മോഹിനിയാട്ടം) is a traditional South Indian dance form from

 Kerala, India.

Odissi The classical dance style of Orissa - the land of temples, the land of sculptures.

Sattriya dance or Sattriya Nritya is one among the eight principal classical dance traditions of India. The others are

 Bharatanatyam, Kathakali, Mohini Attam, Kuchipudi, Odissi, Kathak and Manipuri. The dance has its origin in Assam.

Please keep POVs (points of views) outside of wikipedia. Thank you.

[edit] Regarding Tamil and Sanskrit in Bharata Natayam

In the first place I do not know why the languages would have to be reverted. Secondly, Tamil was put before Sanskrit on the page since it is the indiguous language of Tamil Nadu. Sanskrit was later introduced to Southern India and is not indigenous to the region. At the same token of resepect, I am in no way putting Sanskrit down since it is a classical language. Much Regards.

Wiki Raja 03:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I have re-arranged the languages as per English alphabetical order.Pls see Carnatic Music for the order in which scripts are written.-Bharatveer 04:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There have been some disputes between those who are against or for Tamil. Also, there have been a couple of people going to the extent to remove the Tamil script and even the place name of Tamil Nadu off this page. But, since you have stated that you are by arranging the scripts in alphabetical order and if that is a wikipedia procedure, then that is fine by me. By the way, please take a look at Kathakali and Mohiniaattam. I have added Sanskrit to both those pages too. Regards.

Wiki Raja 05:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Much appreciated.-Bharatveer 06:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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