Talk:Betrayal of the Cossacks

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Contents 1 This article is already neutral and fair - read the research and see for yourself 2 POV 3 Not Soviet citizens? 4 The POV! It's Blinding! 5 Cossacks fighting for freedom 6 POV 7 New Title proposal 8 move to Operation Keelhaul?

[edit] This article is already neutral and fair - read the research and see for yourself

The relevant research has been comprehensively undertaken by Count Nikolai Tolstoy-Miloslavksy, a descendant of Count Lev Tolstoy, the famous writer.

Count Tolstoy's research is painstaking and meticulous and cites all sources very extensively and fully, taking them from government files in the West and now from the Soviet Union files. No-one has written a satisfactory rebuttal of his research nor, indeed, any rebuttal at all.

The Libel action brought by Lord Aldington in 1989 against Count Tolstoy and Mr Watts concerned a pamphlet circulated by Mr Watts and did not relate to any of Count Tolstoy's books which have never - repeat never - been challenged in the courts.

It is quite clear that the Cossacks were, indeed, betrayed and that largely by officials of the British government, particularly some in the Foreign Office. It is also quite clear that the Foreign Office illegally ordered the return to the Soviet Union of a very large number of Cossack and other emigres, knowing that they would be shot or imprisoned but also knowing that this would partially appease Stalin. British Special Forces units were tasked with the hand-over and witnessed many Cossacks and emigres being shot by the NKVD.

It is probable that this may have been a secret arrangement concluded at or after Yalta by Soviet-friendly officials in the British government, since British officialdom was, at that time, heavily infiltrated by fellow-travellers and others sympathetic to the Soviet Union, like the spies and traitors, Burgess, Philby and McLean. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.71.45.151 (talk • contribs).

[edit] POV

Although to me a cossack, this is a touching piece, I must urge for it to be NPOVed. You must remember that at the same time hunderds of thousands of ethnic Cossacks fought for the Red Army against the nazis whether being in Cossack regiments or in others, and the tone that this article sets for how our motherland is portrayed is unacceptable and if I was more skeptical I would have given this article a thorough filtering. However since it is unfinished, I shall wait for a while and urge the author to NPOV and expand the section... The whole of my family fought for my motherland in Cossack regiments. --Kuban kazak 16:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The article needs a new title or should be merged with Operation Keelhaul article. Fisenko 17:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This article definitely needs a new title because the word 'betrayal' is strongly pov. --Tomato 02:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs some more NPOVing but am finding it difficult to do myself because of my personal feelings towards these events. It definetly needs a new title but I can't think of one. It could be merged with Operation Keelhaul as they are essentially the same thing but from different POV (one from a British, the other from a Soviet refugee). I thought of adding something about the Red Army but didn't think it should be added to this article because it was dealing solely with those Cossacks that fought for the White Army, as they were the ones that were handed over. --Jklin 05:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

White army and Red army in sense of the Russian civil war? Then that is rather irrelevant, except for those people who fought twice against the Soviet Union. Now I am talking about those Cossacks who, once their land has been occupied made the choice of collaborating. This article should clearly mention that they only compromised a minority, that most Cossacks fought for the Red Army (athough the majority did not fight in Cossack regiments, that is true). Finally it should also mention the 1950s pardon of the Soviet Govenment.--Kuban Cossack 09:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Soviet citizens?

Having read Pyotr Krasnov I suggest the assertion here that he was never a Soviet citizen is incorrect. He was taken prisoner during the Kerensky-Junker plot and was then released after promising "never to do it again". A promise he broke almost immediately.

On the other hand, the Shkuro case is different. As I suppose will be the case with many others.

Many of these people committed heinous war crimes, not necessarily in the Soviet Union (Yugoslavia comes to mind, and the Warsaw Uprising). Which does not mean that one crime deserves another, but puts things into perspective. --pgp 12:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The POV! It's Blinding!

Pretty POV. Still, it covers an interesting aspect of the policy of forced soviet repatriation in the aftermath of the second world war. I'd recomend deleting the sensationlist parts, citing sources carefully, and using hard numbers rather than generalizations. I'll try to launch into a little bit of cleanup, but I suspect the big cleanup guns are going to have to come from our cyrillic reading wikipedians who have more plentiful access to specific sources.

--Irongaard 02:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cossacks fighting for freedom

It deserves the highest respect to fight for your fatherland. But the Cossacks who were fighting in two wars for their freedom to live in peace in a free Cosakia without oppression and persecution are deserving the same respect. They have not left their homeland to fight for the Third Reich or Hitler. No, they were looking for freedom to lieve in peace in their home country. That they have chosen twice the loser side is the most tragic episode of the Cossack history. --Bargen 11:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

If over one million people of Soviet nationality served with or in the German army one can't speak of a minority. In March 1943 they were numbering already apprx. 430.000 men which joined the German army voluntary. A great part of them were Cossacks. To be read in "Cossacks in the German army" 1991 by Samuel J. Newland, U.S. Army War College:

"When the German 14th Panzer Corps moved into the vicinity of the River Mius, during mid-October 1941, they were surprised to find an engagement in progress behind the Red Army's front line. They found not German troops but a Russian militia unit had attacked the Soviet Army from the rear. The militia group was commanded by 1st Lietenant Nicholas Nazarenko, a Don Cossack..(p.90). On August 22, 1941, with the war only two month old, the entire 436 Soviet Regiment defected to the Germans. The defection was led by Major Ivan Nikitch Kononov, a Don Cossack...(p.92). Kononow was later commanding as Colonel the Plastunbrigade in the XV.-Cossack-Cavallery-Korps in the Wehrmacht. Not to forget about General Vlassov with his Army of Liberation. All this facts needs to be considered when as suggested the article needs "thourough filtering" and NPOV.--Bargen 12:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Voluntary...well the bulk of the collaborators were Vlasovites, Soviet POWs faced with either to die (since Holocaust was not really limited to the Jews, and Soviet POWs were not treated any more humane then they were) or to join the ROA, or wait and be faced with a question: "Why are you not dead?" by the NKVD. Cossacks read the article 50,000. ... As for the 436th regiment...well if you follow the Soviet order of battle then a regiment can number between 500 up 2000 men depending on what the regiment is. Still quite far away from 430 000. Then if you include Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian and other nationalist collaborators, those did join voluntary then that is a believable figure... until then please do not feed BS by some random author who lived on a different continet.--Kuban Cossack 14:53, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, the bulk were Soviet origin. In the "XV. Cossack Cavalery Corps" apprx. 25.000 Cossacks were serving. Wlassow's so called Army of Liberation only came in action in February 1945 and changed side again already beginning of May in Praque.

Prague not Praque, and 25 000 is nowhere near 430 000... Which preatty matches the Soviet figures and our Cossack ones. You are forgetting however about the nearlly millions of Cossack descendents who took arms for their motherland and fought in ALL military branches of the Worker Peasent Red Army and Red Fleet. --Kuban Cossack 14:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way Samuel J. Newland is a member of the US Army War College teaching faculty and the Academic Officer for the Department of Corresponding studies. You should read his book on the Cossacks. --Bargen 09:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes...US Army, what makes him an expert--Kuban Cossack 14:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Kuban, perhaps displaying a bit of respect for non-Soviet sources would be appropriate. Jtpaladin 01:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Title proposal

Since it seems to be agreed that this article needs a new title, how about Cossacks after WWII. Most of this information could be transferred there and more information about cossacks that fought for the allies could be added. This would also get rid of the POV title and give an opportunity to further NPOV the article in the move.--Joe Jklin (T C) 04:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Cossacks after WWII is a direct insult to millions of Cossack descendents who fought in the Red Army ranks. This article deals with a single group of those people and should be mentioned. I propose that it be moved to Lienz Cossacks, as that is directely relevant title and has been applied several times in English--Kuban Cossack 09:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That is why I mentioned that information about cossacks that fought for the allies (which includes the Red Army) would need to be included in the article. Currently the only mention that I can find of cossacks after or during WWII is here. I just think it's a chance to mention the cossack's parts on both sides of WWII--Joe Jklin (T C) 18:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] move to Operation Keelhaul?

Maybe this should be moved to operation keelhaul, just under the sub title of "Cossacks."

Strong Oppose as the Cossack story is far greater than the story of Operation Keelhaul. Also this article is still fairly POV on what is a very sensitive subject. Rgds, - Trident13 11:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)