User talk:Ben-Velvel

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[edit] Your edits to Latvia

Can you please state some of your sources, where are you getting that from? What you're adding doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Who are these "international communists bolsheviks"? At that point in time, there were generally only communists in Russia/USSR, you're talking about the 30s here. Saying that Arajs' group shot most Latvian Jews is contradictory to every source I've seen. Yes, the Latvian group under Arajs shot many, but where do your numbers to say "most" come from? Finally, Latvia becoming an industrial country during Soviet times is not correct, Latvia was annexed in 1940, but the VEF factory, most notably, was producing its electronic devices at an earlier time, mostly in the 30s and before World War 2, that is, during independent Latvia. Of course, the Soviet Union did try to industrialize all of its parts, but Latvia had some advanced industry prior to that and parts of it were actually hurt during Soviet times.

Also, are you Latvian by any chance?

I'll aprreciate your comments. Thanks! Solver 15:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

We are talking about the 10s-20s here. In 1917-1922 among communists there were representatives of many nationalities of Russian empire, of Germany, Austria, Hungary etc. Trotsky is jew, Dzerzhinsky is Pole, Peters is Latvian, the famous bolshevist troops Red Arrows are Latvian. During civil war in Russia 1917-1922 significant part of the Latvian military troops (created during the First world war) battled on the side of bolsheviks (Red Arrows). The bolshevist agencies of state security were headed by Latvians Peters and Latsis. VeF in presoviet time is a workshop, during Soviet time - a huge factory. During Soviet time automobile factories, bulk-oil ports have appeared

Ben-Velvel

There's a difference between nationality and country - национальность and гражданство, if you wish. You can say that the Soviet system had little to do with Russians - Trotsky and Sverdlov are Jews, Stalin was Georgian, and so on. Or, for example, Hitler was actually Austrian. Yes, there were bolsheviks of many nationalities, Russians, Latvians, Jews, Poles, others. Many Latvian Riflemen were on the Red side, that is also correct, but was already mentioned in the article anyway.
The VEF "Workshop" actually created the Minox, which is probably the most important invention, in 1937, before soviet times. During Soviet times many other factories appeared, including those for large machinery (most notably RAF I think), but it is then not correct to say that Latvia became an industrial country then. You could say, though, that Latvia was further industrialized with more factories.
Remember that Wikipedia doesn't really approve of terms such as "Became larger", "became better", "a large part of", etc. Instead, specific numbers or facts should be used, and sources are neccessary. For example, if you want to change some information about the Latvian riflemen fighting on either side, you need a good source with numbers - how many fought on this side, how many fought on that side. I would agree that the article on Latvia needs some more information on the Soviet period (would belong better in History of Latvia and not Latvia) but such information should conform with Wikipedia standards. Solver 15:39, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
At this time (1917-1920) the word Russian already means not the country, but a nationality (Russian empire has already broken up). You cannot write truthful (neutral) article) about Latvia if have forgotten Arajs group or red riflemen
Ben-Velvel
What's your first language, is it Russian? In English, it's not really obvious what "Russian communists" would refer to - nationality or communists from Russia. Also, Russia is very commonly used to also refer to the Russian part of the USSR in 1917-1991. Anyhow, this point is irrelevant unless you want to start categorizing each person that was of importance in Soviet times by nationality. What is relevant is the Latvian article, which quite clearly says (in History of Latvia) that Latvian riflemen fought on the Russian side. I'd like to ask you to revert your latest changes to Latvia - you say "In civil war in Russia 1917-1922 Latvians battle on both sides of the conflict, but mainly support bolsheviks". To make a statement about "mainly supporting bolsheviks", you need to show a source that shows specific numbers from which it's obvious that mainly bolsheviks were supported. In the absence of that, you can't make such a statement, so please revert then.
Please state what other edits you would like to make to the History of Latvia article. I appreciate your desire to expand on the articles, but again, it has to be neutral and with sources. As for Arajs and red riflemen, the red riflemen are mentioned in History of Latvia, and Arajs is mentioned in the same article (also mentioned in The Holocaust), and both articles do mention what the Arajs group did.
If you disagree with what I say, I guess I will ask another editor with knowledge of the subject and a history of edits about Latvia-related articles to comment. Thanks! Solver 16:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you want, that in article History of Latvia was no mention of red Latvian riflemen at all? Two red divisions were formed from Latvians.

http://www.museum.ru/C6944 http://www.tassphoto.com/?section=3310_0&date=2004-11-09&offset=420&sessid=6a500ce26c083c989fc8ae85a5555bb9 http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/068/938.htm (article of encyclopediae). Vatsetis, Berzin, Latsis, Eideman an other communists generals were Latvians Ben-Velvel 16:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I never disputed that. Some of the important officers were Latvian, and, in fact, some Latvian Riflemen were even dedicated to protecting Lenin during the war. However, the articles already state that there were red Latvian divisions and there is also mention of Latvian officers. That doesn't mean, though, that the riflemen "mainly supported bolsheviks", for that, you would need a numerical breakdown of riflemen showing that most were on the bolshevik side and not among those who fought elsewhere, including Latvian independence side. So everything you say is already in History of Latvia. Solver 16:47, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The "Latvian Division" that took the Crimea consisted of 16 333 men in November 1920, but only 6278 of these men were Latvians (Edgars Andersons, Latvijas vēsture 1914-1920 Stockholm: Daugava, 1967. p. 591). Spekke in The History of Latvia (Stockholm: Zelta Ābele, 1957) gives the following rough numbers (based on the official military estimates, calculated by General Bangerskis) -- of ca. 35 000 Riflemen active before the Christmas Battles, 4000 were killed or wounded, 2000 joined the Troitsk and Imanta regiments, and more than 25 000 were demobilized and later joined the Latvian National Army. 770 or ca. 77% {!) of the officers from the Rifle Regiments took part in the War of Independence. A nation-state is not responsible for people because they are of an ethnicity (and I suspect that Ben-Velvel means "ethnicity" by "nationality") -- the Riflemen who fought for the Bolsheviks were never Latvian citizens (i.e., they were never Latvian nationals but Russian nationals), and the Peace of Rīga explicitly notes that the names retained by the Bolsheviks ("Latvian Division," etc.) are not to be construed as anything other than historical labels -- these people had nothing to do with the nation-state, and the actual number of those who went over to the Reds was quite small; certainly there was considerable support for the Far Left in Latvia (higher than in Russia proper in Southern Livland in 1917, for example), but most of that support melted away under Stučka's rule (in the short-lived Iskolat Republic). It should be noted, too, that the Red Riflemen acquired such a reputation that many people mistook any soldiers who were not native speakers of Russian for Latvians, just as the pejorative Russian slang for Latvians -- gansi -- is literally a reference to Germans ("Hans") (I rather wonder whether Ben-Velvel's "200 000 Germans" at [[1]] weren't also arrived at by a similar misunderstanding...). --Pēteris Cedriņš 19:11, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To avoid a dispute (History of Ukraine)

I ask to take into account my amendments.

  • 1) WW1. The Austrian reprisals in Galicia against Ukrainians, sympathizing Russia
  • 2) An antisemitic policy in days of Petlura
  • 3) A policy of Ukrainization in 20s years
  • 4) Famine is result of collectivization not directed particularly against ethnic Ukrainians. 3-6 millions victims of famine.(The number in article "8-12 millions" is overestimated and contradicts even to calculations of Conquest.)
  • 5) Reprisals against Poles in Volhynia in 1942-1943, lead by Ukrainian Insurgent Army

Ben-Velvel 13:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Please also take into account:
  • 3) The bloody purge and centralization of power in Moscow that took place when Ukrainization was reversed in 1932–33. The casualties included Ukrainian party members, but also many journalists, scientists, artists, and academics; this was a direct assault against Ukrainian culture and language.
  • 4) Simultaneously, the famine was particularly directed at peasants who had a tradition of working independently-owned khutirs, as in Ukraine, and barely affected many Russian farmers who had traditionally worked collective obshchinas. Stalin himself wrote "after all, the peasant question is the basis, the quintessence of the national question ... In essence, the national question is the peasant question." The Communist paper Proletarska Pravda went further in 1930: "collectivization in Ukraine has a special task ... to destroy the social basis of Ukrainian nationalism — individually-owned peasant agriculture." The first Five-Year Plan states "Ukraine ... was chosen to serve as a colossal laboratory for new forms of socioeconomic and productive-technical reconstruction of the rural economy for the entire Soviet Union."
A belief that millions of unnecessary deaths coincidentally happened in Ukraine due to innocent mismanagement is not supportable by mainstream sources. If you wish to avoid a dispute, don't try to push such a view into Wikipedia articles. —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 22:20 Z

Please check your email. --Irpen 17:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History of Ireland - the Great Famine

Apart from its inflamatory expression, your statement is historically inaccurate. The circumstances were far more complex than you say. Please read the Great Famine article before you stick in your polemics. The event is burned in the Irish memory and you devalue the real historical critique by writing patent nonsense about it. --Red King 18:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

The article "history of Ireland" has the big blanks. Authors have overlooked, that Oliver Cromvell devastated Ireland in 1649-1651, many towns, such as Drogeda have been destroyed, the third of population was lost, Irish have been compulsorily expelled in the western fruitless areas of island. And causes of famine 1845-1849 is described inaccuratly. Authors have forgotten the "cleansing of manors" from fine tenants. Ben-Velvel 21:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I presume you have read the explanations another editor gave you in Talk:History of Ireland. Please note that the History of Ireland article is a summary of the most important points, so some details have to be omitted. I'm happy that you want to know about our history, but you really need to understand that it is very complicated! The "Heroes and Villains" version that you see in the movies is very superficial. I think you need to read the Plantations of Ireland and then the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. I've already given you the link to the famine article. I'm not sure what you mean by the "cleansing of manors", but I guess it is the Anglo-Irish War and maybe the Irish Civil War. And then you need to start again with the History of England to understand why they were so afraid that Ireland would provide a base for France or Spain to attack.
Any questions, just leave a note on Red King. --Red King 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
"cleansing of manors". Big English landowners expelled Irish tenants (cottiers) and passed to animal industries, because of falling prices for grain in the English markets. It was one of the important causes of the famine in 1840s Ben-Velvel 16:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok - though I wonder if maybe you mean the Highland clearances in Scotland, which partly contributed to the Highland Potato Famine (1846 - 1857). I have not heard the term "cleansing of manors" before, and neither has Google.
Rich landlords were behaving that way everywhere, even in England (though a bit earlier - see Enclosures). The article Irish Potato Famine (1845-1849) covers this quite well, though it could be improved. For a wider context, read History of Ireland (1801-1922) and especially the Irish Land League and the Irish Land Act. Many land-lords suffered badly too, but I wouldn't want over-state this - in one famous case the Duke of Devonshire charged his Irish tenants double the rent of his Devonshire tenants, for land that was half as productive. --Red King 20:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Many of the so-called English landlords were Irish as were their estate agents; Irish interceine and military activity caused just as much disruption and death at different times; and most of those transplanted to Connacht and elsewhere were members of the aristocracy and gentry. The overwhelming majority of the lower classes stayed put. Fergananim 00:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New article

There is an excellent new article at Ireland 1691-1801 - see especially Ireland 1691-1801#Economic Situation. The particular sentence you wanted is this one "The ... Anglo-Irish absentee landlords drew off some £800,000 in the early part of the [17th] century, rising to £1 million, in an economy that had a GDP of about £4 million." But note which of the series of Famines it was! --Red King 00:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Your edits to Kipchaks

Ben-Velvel...there are three problems with your edits to this article, which is why I have twice reverted the information out of the article:

  1. The sentence structure of your additions has rendered the sections unreadable--i.e., they simply don't make sense in English. I'd have fixed the sentence structure, but I couldn't make heads or tails of what you were trying to say...which brings me to my second point:
  2. Factually, I haven't been able to independently verify any of your additions to the article (nor even the existence of the "Alta", which I assume is a river somewhere...) This problem could be avoided, but that brings me to the third problem:
  3. None of the content you've added contains citations Please review WP:CITE and WP:N

To avoid future problems with poorly structured English additions to articles, please seek assistance from someone whose English ability is sufficient to help you word things. Thanks! Tomertalk 04:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Citation from your article: "They arrived in the steppes from the northern shore of the Black Sea during the 12th century, under the pressure of the Mongols." It is nonsense and absence of logic.!!! Mongols in 12 century lived in the central Asia, but not of the shore of the Black sea. Kipchaks were nomads and lived in steppes only. At 11-12 centuries Kipchaks moved from the river Irtysh to the river Volga, and then to the Dnieper and to the Danube. The Desht-e-Kipchak is the area from Irtysh to Danube. In 1068 Kipchaks devastated Kievan Rus. Polovtsi are yellowish in old Russian. The Old-Russian dictionary is the source. Citation from The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. "Polovtsi or Cumans, nomadic East Turkic people, identified with the Kipchaks and known in Russian as Polovtsi. Coming from NW Asian Russia, they conquered S Russia and Walachia in the 11th cent... They founded a nomadic state in the steppes along the Black Sea..." Other sources: Pouchenie by Vladimir Monomakh, medieval Russian Annal (in Russian) and the Tale of Igor's Campaign, medieval Russian Annal (in Russian).

--Ben-Velvel 15:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kipchaks"

Thanks. That's what I was looking for. There are still a couple problems with the English and the wikimarkup, but I'll take care of them. Tomertalk 19:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chechnya

Dear Ben-Velvel,

Your activities at the "Chechnya" site are far from the neutral point of view. You clearly try to impose Russian PoV and you use unacceptable expressions like "swindler Berezovsky". The facts are that Berezovsky was accused of swindling by Russian authorities, but his criminal activities were never proved. You say that the guilty of bombing apartment blocks in Moscow and other cities were brought to court and sentenced. Unfortunately, there are serious doubts about the fairness of the trial. Many people in history were sentenced and then turnt out to be innocent. You also say that Maskhadov did nothing to prevent terrorist acts. This statement is void, because does not take into account whether he really did not want to do anything or really could not do anything. Please, stick to the neutral point of view. Jasra 15:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Jasra,

Your activities at the "Chechnya" site are far from the neutral point of view too.

"The Russian government immediately blamed Chechen terrorists, but failed to provide any substantial evidence to support its claims."

Nonsense. Do you know about results of litigations? Or such "trifles" do not interest you?

"It has since been alleged by some that FSB agents, rather than Chechen separatists, were behind the attacks"

Who did accuse FSB? Boris Berezovsky was the "prosecutor". In Buinaksk members of families of frontier guards died. The Frontier Guard is a division of FSB. Even Berezovsky did not accuse FSB of explosion of a house in Buinaksk. But you do it... You consider that Berezovsky is not the swindler. Work to prove it...

Your justifications of Maskhadov are ridiculous. If he did not stop terrorism of Chattab and Basayev as supreme official of Ichkeria, he carries the full responsibility for this terrorism.

Figure about "250.000 Chechen victims of the conflict" is a nonsense. This invention has no rational intelligent serious source.

And the last. For you Russians are the race of the second grade. In your opinion "freedom-loving" Chechens have the right to kill and expel Russians. 300.000 Russians have been expelled from the Chechnya where they have lived four hundred years and it does not excite you. Ben-Velvel 00:23, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

p.s Aleksandra, my real name is Alexander. But I hate fantasy, I like Science-Fiction (Heinlein, Gibson, Stanislav Lem) :)~

Dear Alexander,

'And the last. For you Russians are the race of the second grade. In your opinion "freedom-loving" Chechens have the right to kill and expel Russians.'

Could you provide any evidence that I ever wrote that Russians are "subhumans". In fact I do believe that any nation has right to be independent. Chechens are not exception from this rule. Of course if any violent acts against Russian civillians take place this is condemnable, but this does not change my mind about the right of Chechnya to be independent. For Chechens their survival as nation is at stake. For Russians Chechnya does not have much significance.Even without Chechnya (or even without the whole Caucasus) Russia would remain the biggest country in the world. This is my point of view and I did express it in the article, becouse I know that the article must be neutral. Discussion,of course does not have to be neutral.

All have the right to be independent. However independence should not be realized for the another's account. (1) In modern republic Chechen Republic there are territories, on which Russians (cossacks) have appeared much earlier than Chechens. Russians which lived in the Chechen Republic and have created its industry, have the right to choice, in what country to live. (2) The periods of political independence of the Chechen Republic in 1991-1994 and 1996-1999 have shown that this republic has no real economic independence. Chechens earned money in Russia and quite often in criminal ways, using the Russian chaos of 90s. The Chechen industry has failed after that Russian engineers and workers were expelled from the Chechen Republic Ichkeria. For quickly growing Chechen population there is no work in the Chechen Republic. In all large cities of Russia the Chechen communities quickly grow. If Russia does not control the Chechen Republic, it turns to a zone for "criminal economy". It can be compared to a situation in Afghanistan. (3)Politically independent Chechen Republic was terrible threat for safety of Russia and the Russian citizens. In 1991 an infinite series of the Chechen acts of terrorism began (still in 1991 Basayev hijacked the passenger plane fliing from Ekaterinburg). In 1996-1999 in boundary Russian Stavropol Krai peasants worked in a field under protection of soldiers as in Middle Ages, there were attacks of Chechens which stole cattle. On a regular basis there were kidnappings, kidnapped persons were transported in Chechnya and there they became hostages Ben-Velvel 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually most of the article was written by other people, so some your arguments would refer to them. For example the part about the numbers of people killed was not mine and I can neither confirm it or deny. I think NPoV would be saying that different sources give different numbers. So far it is impossible to say which estimation is correct.

As for apartments bombing - the case in Ryazan - some suspicious individuals in the area, calling the Militia, the Militia not knowing what was going on and then explanation from FSB that everything was excercise allows being suspicious. Usually local Police/Militia are informed about excercises. This is not a strong evidence, but allows suspicions. Another suspicion comes from the Latin saying 'cui bono?' (whose benefit?). Chechnya in those times was a 'de facto' independent country, so terrorists acts would only bring harm to Chechen cause (and they did). For Russia it was a good excuse to restart the war and remove previous sense of defeat.

Russia already had enough reasons for the military retaliatory action against the Chechen Ichkeria Republic. Please do not forget Basayev's and Hattab invasions. Ben-Velvel 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Another argument in favour of the thesis that official Russian version is not true is the fact that lawyers who were too inquisitive were put aside from the investigation. This is too weak evidence to say that FSB did the provocation, but strong enough to put in the article the information that there are people who do not believe in the official version and leave it without a comment.

Explosions in September 1999 in Moscow stand in a long chain of acts of terrorism. I repeat, that the reasons for punishment of republic Ichkeria was enough. Ben-Velvel 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as Berezovsky is concerned - it is so that everyone is innocent unless proved guilty. One does not have to prove that Berezovsky (or Alexander/Alexandra ;) or anyone) is not a swindler. Only if you want to call someone "swindler" you have to prove it. The only thing one can include in the article is that Berezovsky was accused by Russian authorities of swindling. AFaIK he was granted political azylum on the ground that he was politically persecuted and some believe that accusing him is a part of these persecussion. He was not sentenced.

For the beginning Berezovsky has a long tail of privatization scandals. For example he privatized the first TV channel (ORT) after mysterious murder of known liberal TV-manager Vlad Listjev. When Berezovsky should appear at court, he has run away to England.Ben-Velvel 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as Maskadov is concerned, we can only stick to facts. The facts are that he condemned the terror. Whether he could or could not prevent it - these are pure speculations. They can be raised in discussion, but not in the article.

Putin or Bush carry the full responsibility for actions of military forces basing on territory of Russia or the USA. Accordingly Maskhadov carried the responsibility for intrusion of the Chechen gangs in Dagestan. Otherwise he was not the president, but the private person or leader of a gang. Ben-Velvel 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Regards, 22:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

PS. I also like s-f, some books (e.g. by R. Zelazny) are hard to be classified in s-f or fantasy. In "strict" s-f it gets irritating that the authors sometimes write about things contradicting with the laws of physics. In fantasy or sub-genders between s-f and fantasy there are no such limitations, because we do not have to expect things that are (even theoretically) possible, Jasra 22:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

In a fantasy IMO the main thing is internal aesthetic reliability, aesthetic reliability of the world created by the author. In science fiction should be both internal and external reliability. Sometimes laws of physics are not broken at all, for example in the cyberpunk. And if they are broken that is for the sake of creation of even more extensive picture of a universeBen-Velvel 18:31, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The postal network and census under Mongols. I ask you again

Your text: "Under Mongol occupation, for example, Muscovy developed its postal road network, census, fiscal system..."

Is that really so? What are your sources? Postal road network, census existed in the own territory of the Golden Horde, in China under Mongols, but what about population censuses and safe communications in territories of vassal Russian princedoms? For example Ivan Kalita, having received a label on grand-ducal reigning in 1328, cleared himself roads of robbers and maked communications safe.

ps. By the way the idea (which you share) about positive influence of Golden Horde was completely unknown during pre-revolutionary time and has appeared only at some Soviet historiansBen-Velvel 13:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not my text. The article is taken from the Library of Congress Country Studies. I never even edited the phrase you quote here, although I believe it is essentially correct. --Ghirla | talk 13:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Source for number

Can you please cite your source for 80.000 number on Ninth Fort? Thanks, Renata 01:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.booksite.ru/fulltext/1/001/008/021/234.htm (According to the book of Kondratas and Kaplanas was 80 thousand victims); http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/ninth4/ninth4.htm (According to the modern Memorial in 9th Fort: "Here the remains of 50,000 people, Russians, Jews, Lithuanians and others killed by the Nazis, are burried." ) Executions were carried out also in 6th and 7th forts. Probably it explains some divergence in numbers. Ben-Velvel 23:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some advices

Hello. As it concerns more than one article, I thought I would write it here. Those are several advices about Wikipedia; I am not criticising your work of course, I am just taking several notes; these are friendly advices and I hope that you will find them to be helpful.

  • Scope of the articles (regarding your inclusion of the Belarusian World War 2 history in the Khatyn massacre) - please note that we are not writting books or newspaper articles here, but encyclopedia articles. They should stay on the very particular subject described in topic. Of course, those facts are important, but they are important for many places in Belarus, shall we repeat them in many articles? Repeating is not good, this is why in Wikipedia it is usually done so that instead of writting something on different subject a wikilink is given. So, I believe you should start a Nazi occupation of Belarus article with the basic information now at Khatyn massacre, then from every place relating to the occupation of Belarus there could be links to that article. And even if it will be short at first, it will be expanded eventually - if not by you, then by someone else. Similarly, there could be a separate article about that particular nazi operation of village burning in Belarus.
  • Copyright violations - In Wikipedia it is generally assumed to be wrong to copy and paste anything from any other websites (except GFDL and your own), rewrite directly from books and such. Of course, any *information* on itself is free, but not the particular way it is presented in.
  • Naming issues - Generally it is the best to use names for the articles that would be descriptive for English-speaking people (this is an English wikipedia). Therefore, one should not be afraid to apply longer names for articles to remove the ambiguity problems, where the particular name can mean several things. As well, if the article is for example about a massacre (Khatyn massacre) then it should be named so, rather than just Khatyn as it was named at first.
  • Sources, references - A single photograph and such cannot be treated as a source. A source must be describing the particular event with numbers of people killed (in the case of massacres), who participated, etc. While a picture might prove that an event happened (but usually nobody even disputes that anyways), it does not confirm any details; and usually when someone is asking for references, he exactly asks for references about the details; if somebody would think whole article is a hoax and that event had never happened, he would just suggest it for deletion. Similarly, other GFDL websites cannot be a source, because everybody might edit GFDL, and, of course, another Wikipedia article (answers.com is a mirror of Wikipedia, it just reproduces everything what is in WIkipedia) cannot be a source. Imagine what would happen if it could be: some person would be able to at first write an article that e.g. Shamil Basayev is not a terrorist, and then use it as a source in every other article to remove references that Shamil Basayev is a terrorist...
  • Neutrality of sources - Just note that it is better to provide undisputable sources if you could (e.g. from politically neutral, respected encyclopedias, newspapers and such), otherwise it might be considered POV by some and start revert wars. You understand, somebody might for example use a neo-nazi website as his source - but, of course, this would just create lots of disputes in Wikipedia.
  • General neutrality - it is the best to list all the viewpoints and historian's accounts relate dto the topic when writting the article, as otherwise it might cause problems, revert warring and such.

Enjoy editing Wikipedia! Burann 11:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Http://www.answers.com/topic/kovnopogrom-jpg.htm is not picture, that is the html-document with picture.
Thank you for general information (but I already knew something earlier :) ).
I do not have problem with a "neutrality", I do not share any ideology. Unfortunately I met here many examples of antiRussian biases (basically on the part of representatives of the Baltic and East Europe countries) and attempts of concealment of the historical truth about crimes carried out by nationalist forces in these countries. So I am afraid, that charges in absence of a neutrality are quite often the weapon of psychological pressure. Nevertheless I hope for good cooperation with you. Ben-Velvel 23:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
As for the picture, I have seen it. But answers.com is a mirror of Wikipedia, it just copies everything from Wikipedia (and other encyclopedias too, but that particular page is from Wikipedia) - both that picture and the HTML document is taken directly from Wikipedia (this is said in that page as well) and thus cannot be a source, as it is the same as using another Wikipedia article as a source. In deed, there have been various doubtful actions, done mainly by Polish wikipedians, as there are many of them since early times of Wikipedia it seems, so they have formed many articles from their start. Anyways, the Wikipedia is constantly improving - if you find some article to be biased, edit it, but one shouldn't create articles for reasons of revenge ("they push their ideas so I will push mine"); I believe that an article can be really neutral only when all the involved sides had checked it. I also hope a nice cooperation with you! Burann 23:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Left you a small note on Khatyn talk page. Dr. Dan 16:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Siege of Ryazan

Ежели Вы считаете необходимым наводнить этот проект ужастиками про злых татар, обратите внимание на то, что в Template:Campaignbox Mongol invasions статья Siege of Ryazan помечена красным цветом, то есть ее не существует, как и статьи про Евпатия Коловрата. Печальное упущение, которое никогда не поздно исправить :) --Ghirla -трёп- 10:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Отчего ж ужастики? Противостояние со Степью очень серьезный фактор в русской истории, который, кстати, не с нашествия монголов начался. Тот самый переток населения на северо-восток, который, как вы упоминали, характерен уже для 12 века, был связан с напором половцев. И я не думаю, что надо из соображений политкорректности как-то это ретушировать. Во Франции, скажем, никто не отказывается от реальной истории Столетней войны, и при этом современные отношения англичан и французров практически идеальны. А про "разорение рязани" непременно напишу. Ben-Velvel 22:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Captives2.JPG

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  • I am trying to retag all the Soviet-PD images. Can you identify there the image came from? Alex Bakharev 07:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Источник неясен (откуда-то из Веба). Автор О.Федоров. At the same time I want to ask about pictures of Russian artists of 19 centuries and photos of museum dioramas and panoramas. Have it a open license? PD?

[edit] WP:TE

I saw you engage in one-sided, tendentious editing. Please take a note that Wikipedia should represent all points of view, rather than spawning black legends with a nationalist background. Ivan IV was a cruel tyrant. Your attempts to justify his campaigns of terror against his own people by his having been poisoned or by the separatism of Novgorod are quite naive. You should be aware that there is no evidence that Oprichnina was aimed specifically against the boyars: people of all ranks were targeted and killed. As you see, all your additions are highly controversial. Therefore, I advise you to adopt a more cautious approach to editing. Otherwise, your edits may be viewed as disruption and appropriate consequences will ensue. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 :: Да, он был тиран, но не более чем монархи его времени. Вы не можете все, что происходило, объяснять его тиранством. Помимо его тиранства была борьба за выход к балтийскому морю, набеги крымских татар, походы литовцев, шведов и поляков. Был голод и эпидемии 1560-х. В том же Новгороде. Во время погрома 1570 не погибало 60 тысяч человек, это абсурд, если в городе жило даже в период расцвета 25-30 тыс. А к 1570 осталось гораздо меньше. Вы имеете право исправлять мой материал, но просто так выбрасывать то, что делал несколько часов, не имеете права. Я поставлю статью в диспут, если вы будете запросто уничтожать мой труд Ben-Velvel 17:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
В настоящее время статья достаточно нейтральна. Передергивать биографию Ивана, представляя его в виде ангела во плоти, не стоит. Довольно нелепо писать, что Иван казнил всех без разбору, от своих ближайших родственников до дворовых, потому что его враги травили. В этом проекте достаточно большой трафик: если не я, так и исправит кто-нибудь другой. Если есть желание распространиться по поводу новгородских событий, лучше сделать это в статье Massacre of Novgorod, представив (с надлежащими ссылками) обе точки зрения на этот предмет. Удачи, Ghirla -трёп- 17:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Я не представлял его ангелом во плоти, напротив я считаю его с опредленного времени психически болльным человеком. Но меня задели в статье про Грозного, во-первых, сильно завышенные цифры новгородских убийств; объяснение всего того ужаса, голода и эпидемий, которые происходили на Руси, только опричниной; явное игнорирование того, что за Иваном стояли объективные централистские тенденции, которые и в Зап.Европе вели к преодолению феодальной раздробленности и построению абсолютистского государства. Ну, зачем ивана выставлять в роли уникального русского чудища, учитывая сколько крови пролил Генрих VIII английский или Карл IX французский. Посмотрите какая аккуратная статья по Варфоломеевской ночи, какие там взвешенные оценки. Ben-Velvel 17:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Там было сказано, что официальные цифры были в пределах тысячи жертв. Можно написать, что число жертв могло быть преувеличено недругами царя или что вообще все эти вопросы надо рассматривать cum grano salis. Можно подумать, число жертв от татарских набегов - не преувеличение. Все эти цифры довольно условны. Разумнее всего перенести спорные вопросы из Ивановой биографии в более тихое место, такое как Massacre of Novgorod. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Этот весь пассаж "In a dispute with the wealthy city of Novgorod, Ivan ordered the Oprichniks to murder inhabitants of this city, which was never to regain its former prosperity. Between thirty and forty thousand might have been killed during the infamous Massacre of Novgorod in 1570" содержит просто кучу ошибок.

  • 1) Новгород не был процветающим городом к 1570 после эпидемий и голода 60-х.
  • 2) Иван вряд ли давал задание убить всех жителей города.
  • 3) Количество убитых 30-40 тысяч представляется в виде как бы законченного доказанного утверждения.Хотя эти цифры сильно противоречат даже численности населения города к 1570.
  • 4) официальные данные были достаточно честными. Это "сказка" Малюты Скуратова и поминальные синодики Грозного. Ну разве стал он бы так безбожно врать перед Богом, будучи религиозным человеком? Ben-Velvel 17:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
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