Talk:Benny Hinn

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Contents 1 General cleanup November 2006 2 Controversies: IRS and Tarrant County reviews 3 Anti-Hinn page 4 OMG 5 Statements/prophecies

[edit] General cleanup November 2006

I've done a fairly major cleanup on this article, mainly to eliminate soapboxing, clear up POV issues, cite and wikify references, and make it read more like an encyclopedia article rather than a LiveJournal rant written by a committee. I have also archived the talk page as most of the discussions applied to old versions of the article.

There's still a bit more that could be done. In particular, we could do with a "theology and ministry" section going into a bit more detail about his ministry and teachings in particular. There are also still a number of statements in the article that need citations. --Jammycakes 13:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies: IRS and Tarrant County reviews

This was in the article but I can't find any reference to it on the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's website, so I've moved it here. Can anyone provide a link?

The Fort Worth Star-Telegram reported in August 2005 that the Tarrant County Appraisal District (responsible for determining the assessed value of real estate for tax purposes and for granting property tax exemptions) was reviewing whether Hinn's facility in Grapevine met the requirements for a property tax exemption. ^{[citation needed]} Specifically, the review would focus on whether the "church" designation, the same one Anthony and Trinity Foundation claim is false, was used to claim an exemption to which Hinn's ministry may not have been entitled. The review was requested by Anthony and Trinity Foundation.^{[citation needed]}

Also, can anyone provide any information on the outcome of the IRS and Tarrant County investigations? This information needs to be included if it's available from a reliable source. Jammycakes 07:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Hinn page

There's alot of anti-Hinn stuff on this page. Hinn has preached to millions of people and many of given their lives to Christ. Just because someone goes to a prayer service and isn't immediately healed is not a sign that Hinn is at fault. That's utterly stupid. Jtpaladin 16:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You should have seen it a couple of weeks ago. The article was packed out with negative soapboxing that didn't cite its sources. I've got rid of the worst of it, but I'd agree that more could be done. Personally I don't think the last paragraph (about the India crusade) adds anything of note to the article, and perhaps we should just remove it altogether. — jammycakes 18:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it was much worse before. So bad I wouldn't touch it. It's almost at a point where I can edit it without wanting a shower after. :) --Steven Fisher 18:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If you ask me, what's "stupid" is defending this conman. --68.149.181.145 18:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

As I'm sure you noticed, nobody asked you. --Steven Fisher 20:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, this guy has been exposed as a fraud. Why do people still defend him? --68.149.181.145 23:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not doing any defense of him. As I said below, I don't even like him. But regardless of what I think or what you think, Wikipedia is not a place for random, anonymous hate comments on talk pages, or calling people stupid. It's also not a place for rants on article pages, nor even presenting facts with a slant. Is that more clear? --Steven Fisher 01:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right there. Calling Benny Hinn a fraud or a con man, even on the talk pages, is a violation of Wikipedia's Biographies of Living Persons policy and as such is not acceptable. He has not been convicted of a criminal offence, and as far as I am aware, the official investigations of him and his ministry have not concluded with any evidence of wrongdoing. If I am wrong about this, you need to cite reliable sources to back up your point. — jammycakes 12:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, is it really a con when he's up front and honest about asking people to give him $6 million dollars so he can buy a jet?[1]140.140.58.8 17:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is this individual listed as a Famous Person for Dana Point, when other communities have no such listing? What criteria warrants this individual to be listed in this category? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.4.143.249 (talk • contribs) 23 November 2006, 05:12.

Horsham, where I live, has a similar listing -- and it's a lot longer. — jammycakes 14:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OMG

I just watched the fifth estate doco on this dude - I had no idea such conmen still existed!  Glen  22:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does make him out to be a bit of a cross between Bill Gates and Del Boy. As a Charismatic Christian my gut reaction is to be favourable towards him and wary of negative statements, but nonetheless I do think some of the criticisms that are made about him are actually justified. Having a private jet is a thoroughly distasteful extravagance for starters, even if it is only used for ministry purposes, as he claims.

Having said that, I think we do need to keep everything in proportion and maintain a cool head. I'd also like to make a plea to everyone to bear in mind that the purpose of the talk page is to discuss how to improve the article, not the merits or otherwise of Benny Hinn himself and his ministry. (see WP:TPG) — jammycakes 22:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Re this talk page, statement is 100% accurate however I dont see an abundance of commetary about Hinn himself here  Glen  22:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm referring more to the talk archives. There was a bit of a slanging match going on, and we need to avoid it degenerating into something like that again. Sorry for the confusion. — jammycakes 22:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I know very little about Hinn. But having an aircraft is not a valid criticism at all. CEOs and athletes have aircraft, why shouldn't a man of God? For all you kno, Hinn has dreamed of flying around in a jet his entire life, and received a direct answer from God before someone sold him one at a ridiculously low price. --Steven Fisher 17:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The point is that (a) he lives a lavish lifestyle, and (b) he gets a lot of stick for it. These are both verifiable facts and have a place in the article. Whether or not this lavish lifestyle is justified, on the other hand, is opinion and doesn't. — jammycakes 09:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree about the article. I'm just questioning the assertion here that having an airplane is distasteful. --Steven Fisher 16:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point jammycakes my opinion isnt appropriate here thanks for the heads up... Steven I'm assuming by that comment that you havent seen the fifth estate doco?  Glen  09:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No. I don't deliberately expose myself to the mainstream media making judgments about God's people. They simply have no mandate to do so. The bible says in 1 Timothy 5:17 that leaders are counted worthy of double honor, after all, and that word for "honor" includes good possessions. So seeing that he's wealthy wouldn't really impact my opinion at all. Now, that doesn't mean I'm a supporter of Hinn... I have other problems with him, which don't seem to be in this article yet. I'd add them if there was a verifiable source for them. --Steven Fisher 16:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I saw it the other day and I must admit I found it rather biased. Personally I don't think it meets Wikipedia's criteria as a reliable source -- it contains a lot of original research and some of its claims seem to be unverifiable. — jammycakes 02:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources are expected to contain original research! This is not an argument against citing the documentary. (Not that I'm saying that it is reliable, since I haven't seen it, but the WP:NOR comment is just misplaced.) Phiwum 13:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think you have a point there. Perhaps a better reference would be to media bias -- surprisingly though, WP:RS doesn't seem to say a great deal about this particular topic. I had a further look round the fifth estate website after watching the Hinn documentary -- it seems to me that they're into crackpot conspiracy theories and things a bit, which is why I'm somewhat cautious about placing too much weight on them. — jammycakes 18:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Steven, I think your edits today are a step in the right direction. I'd just take issue with some of your citation needed tags though: I don't think they're really necessary because the information is all there in the wikilinked articles on the Trinity Foundation, The Sword of the Lord & Personal Freedom Outreach. There's also a balance that we need to draw in the controversies section. If we start flooding that section with references it can end up looking like soapboxing again, which is something we need to avoid. — jammycakes 18:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. I'm still a bit uncomfortable with the "allegedly lavish lifestyle" bit, but maybe a rewording is a better solution there. --Steven Fisher 18:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing alleged about his lavish lifestyle -- it is unarguably lavish. I don't think the criticism section is long enough. -- Kidane (not signed in)

Don't just lengthen it for the sake of it. That's soapboxing. If you think anything needs to be added, make sure it adds something of substance and is stated in a neutral tone. And cite your sources. — jammycakes 10:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the word "lavish" carries a moral judgement instead of just wealth, it is indeed only alleged. If you can think of a better word, though, feel free to put it in there instead. --Steven Fisher 19:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you really think so? I think the word itself is neutral enough. It's probably more the context that it's in that gives it a negative connotation. The controversy is more in how he achieves said lavish lifestyle -- he's perceived by some as being a bit of a twenty-first century Tetzel. — jammycakes 23:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statements/prophecies

Various statements made by Hinn are fairly well-documented and accessible, such as his claim that "Castro will die in the 90's".[2] I don't think an article about Hinn can be complete without a mention of some of these. Shawnc 12:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is information relevant to Benny Hinn, but JammyCakes removed it on Oct. 25. His edit summary says to see the talk page, but I see nothing. I am adding the prophecies section back. Any article which fails to discuss Hinn's prophecies is woefully incomplete. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phiwum (talk • contribs) 13:25, 30 November 2006.

The statements are in Wikiquote and the talk is in the archives. I'd agree that a discussion of some of his statements might be in order, but please don't turn this article back into another POV rant. Make sure you cite good quality sources and keep it in proportion. — jammycakes 13:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the text to aim for NPOV. Please let me know what you think about both the text and the sources. Note: I am not vouching for the sources, since I'm not familiar with them. If any of them are unreliable, I will remove that example. If no examples remain, then maybe we can say nothing about his prophecies. But does he include any prophecies in print? That would be useful (which may be a good reason not to include prophecies in your books!). Phiwum 13:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I've reworded it slightly, removed the subheading and refactored it into a single paragraph, which I think looks a bit more neutral. I think I'll leave others to argue over the NPOV and reliability of the sources though :-) — jammycakes 20:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)