Talk:Battlefield Earth (novel)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to narrative novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the General Project Discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Tasks you can do: Novels WikiProject Announcements and open tasks (watch • edit • discuss) → Please help with tagging articles! This WikiProject now includes "Novels", "Novellas", "Novelettes" and "Short Stories" of narrative form! Critique (Featured Article): None current - "7 achieved / 2 removed" Review: Erast Fandorin Improve: Nineteen Eighty-Five • Vathek • Enderby Outside • The Runes of the Earth • The Giver • Crown of Shadows • More... Create: Black Cocktail • Blackthorn Winter • London, 1850 • The Fatal Eggs • More... Novel without Infobox (auto list): many novel articles do not have an infobox - and need one (auto generated list) - may need expansion of article too A new policy proposal has been started and this is to be seen at Wikipedia:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles, please take a look at these and comment. This is a vital subject and all editors should consider the implications. These are NOT active yet, but could have wide reaching consequences. Please contribute your views. Our Collaboration Department is continuing with one more title Waverley (novel) for the current month. Get collaborating on the article and also look at nominating other titles to be considered. Pages that only exist as redirects: Men at Arms changes

[edit] Uncited, questionable information

The article states: individual Scientologists were reportedly also ordered to buy copies of the book and later that article re-states, According to Miller, Scientologists throughout the United States were instructed to go out and buy at least two or three copies each.[11] and the second instance of Scientologists being "ordered" or "instructed" is cited. However, the first instance of Scientologists being "ordered" is uncited. I frankly don't believe anyone could find, anywhere, an instance of any Scientology organization "ordering" any Scientologist, ever, to "buy a copy of a book". I believe that is utterly false information. Now I realize the article was created to convey a criticsm of Scientology, but nonetheless, it should be cited according to WP:CITE. Specifically a line stating that individual Scientologists were ordered to do something, then who was ordered, who did the ordering, was it in writing or by word of mouth, and any additional information should be placed into the article, citing such an order. Myself, I'm pretty sure that is another of the google group rumors. Terryeo 14:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a rather frivolous objection. Basically, you are calling a claim "uncited" even though you yourself are pointing to the citation that supports it just a few sentences away. Or are you claiming that it's possible for "According to Miller, Scientologists throughout the United States were instructed to go out and buy at least two or three copies each" to be true, and "individual Scientologists were reportedly also ordered to buy copies of the book" to be false? -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Possibly you don't understand what I have said was unsourced. A military commander can order his troops. A Schoolmarm can order her students. A voluntary organization, (such as a group of religious people) however, can not be ordered about. "ordered" is the word and the sentence it is in is uncited. Terryeo 04:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

instruct: verb (instructed, instructing). ETYMOLOGY: 15c: from Latin instruere, instructum to equip or train.

1)a)to teach or train someone in a subject or skill;

b) (usually instruct someone in something) to give them information about or practical knowledge of it.

2) to direct or order, eg someone to do something.

3) law to give (a lawyer) the facts concerning a case.

4) law to engage (a lawyer) to act in a case.

Yandman 07:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, a voluntary organization cannot be ordered about? Then I guess we'll have to revise the description of the Church of Scientology to make it clear that it is no way a "voluntary organization" -- if it was, then L. Ron Hubbard would never have issued so many Ethics Orders. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

individual Scientologists were reportedly ordered to buy copies of the book. Who reported they were ordered? Ordered by whom?How many were ordered? What reliable publication which we can verify Ordered individual Scientologists to buy copies of the book ? Do you see now how a statement appears which is uncited? The sentence is jarring because it goes against the freedoms espoused by the Church it its various declarations. As we all know, one's participation in religion is (at least in the western world) voluntary. Terryeo 20:05, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Your objection hinges upon the idea that the word "ordered" can only be interpreted according to one particular narrow definition, which is not the case. Even if it were the case, which it is not, and even if the numerous "Ethics Orders" issued by LRH didn't make the idea that the Church of Scientology has never "ordered" anyone to do anything ludicrous, your idea that no one can be "ordered" to do anything in a "voluntary organization" is quaint and naive. Can that "voluntary organization" exact substantial penalties for disobedience if you do not follow their instruction? Then it is not an instruction, but an order. If you are told to get your stats up or be assigned to the RPF, it's an order. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

My statement is, the line is not cited, there is no reference which says that was ever published by a reliable source. Whereas WP:V says information of that nature (or any information in an article) should come from a previously published, reliable source. Terryeo 03:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Terryeo's comments about a "voluntary organisation" are somewhat fanciful - the CoS may be voluntary but adherence to its rules and instructions certainly isn't. (The same would be true for just about any workplace.) Note Bent Corydon's cited statement in the article: "We were ordered to sell 1000 copies of Hubbard's recently released science-fiction book Battlefield Earth "before Thursday" or I would be kicked out as mission holder." This testifies to actual coercion being used. -- ChrisO 08:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The only thing presently voluntary about the cofs is joining it. Even auditing and training now are "regged" for using very coercive tactics. It has become a rather fascist organization. --Fahrenheit451 22:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It just amazes me how very different critics of the Church of Scientology view organizational actions than the people who gain from the Church's actions, view the Church's actions. Terryeo 07:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, I'm told that those who gain from the activities of the Cosa Nostra also have a different view of it from the rest of the world. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I recall the Battlefield Earth campaign quite well. I would not use the word "ordered". "Instructed" or "cajoled" or "strongly urged" would be accurate as a description for the tactics that were used to sell that series. Int management made use of cofs public "opinion leaders" to push this campaign.I ignored that insane crap and those who promoted it. --Fahrenheit451 02:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've changed the wording to "urged" per your suggestion. I think it's sufficiently loose to blur the distinction between a request and an order, as it covers both possibilities. -- ChrisO 08:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)