Talk:Battle of the Plains of Abraham

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An event mentioned in this article is a September 13 selected anniversary.

September 13 or September 18 or September 10? What day did this take place? I suppose it has to do with calander reform and such. (Compare with appropriate list of battles page as well -- dml

Sept. 13th is correct. Calendar change has nothing to do with it as it took place in 1752 in Britain and in 1582 in France. Rmhermen 19:24 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
September 13 is the battle, the 18th is the day the garrison in Quebec surrendered. Adam Bishop 16:42, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Burial of the Dead

Hello,

In the aftermath of the battle of The Plains of Abraham on Sept 13, 1759 the dead on both sides were collected. It is known that General Wolfe's body was transported back to England in a cask or caskette of Alcohol. At what location on the field or in the city were the British war dead buried?

Iain MacNeill Waterloo, On Canada

[edit] Getting the numbers straight

Everytime I read something on this battle, I see different numbers. The story is mostly the same, but the numbers just never match. I invite the author(s) of this article to compare their sources with these two:

http://www.net4war.com/history4war/dossiers/moderne/quebec01.htm (French and in French)

http://www.republiquelibre.org/cousture/1759B.HTM (Quebec and in English translation)

Maybe this will help us determine the original source of the numbers. I am personally confused by all these different accounts. Mathieugp 22:09, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I was confused by it as well...I think most of the specific numbers I used are from the Historical Atlas of Canada. The problem seems to be that there were different periods of fighting using different numbers of troops, and that there were also reserves, reinforcements and unused garrisons on both sides, so total numbers probably don't match the actual numbers of men used. I guess it's the same for every other battle. Adam Bishop 22:13, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have to say this article seems to stray from a neutral point of view. The surrender of the French is described as "the ultimate tragic outcome," and the treatment of the decision by France to leave Canada, "a poor, underpopulated colony" and focus on its rich Caribbean possessions borders on historical editorializing, not reporting. Something tells me the author, or one of the authors, was rooting for the French. Patrick Grey Anderson 21:35, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Or maybe he saw the English and French Empires fighting each other for world domination (again) and the young people of Canada paying for it? Mathieugp 22:10, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
An anon seems to have added the "tragic outcome" and similar bits...but it was me who wrote about the rich Caribbean and poor Canada. I suppose what I mean is, France thought it was more worthwhile to keep a profitable Caribbean island, rather than a much bigger colony that had a small population and didn't produce much for them. I didn't mean to editorialize or sound pro-French, so you are welcome to reword it in a more neutral way. Adam Bishop 21:40, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

more details on how wofle found the pathway please, i got more even from school...

You are free to add that information yourself. Adam Bishop 01:13, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] French and Indian War vs. Seven Years' War

Is it proper to say that this battle is part of the French and Indian War? I know that's what Americans call the "North American phase" of the Seven Years' War, but we tend not to say that in Canada, and I'm sure Britain and France don't say that either. Adam Bishop 06:43, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is certainly true that this battle is part of the French and Indian War and that it is part of the Seven Years War. The previous arrangment of the sentence implied that American called the entire Seven Years War the French and Indian War which is not true. We call both the European part and the overarching conflict the Seven Years War. The British are not consistent in this regard as they call the fighting during this same time period between:
  • British vs. French and Red Indians (Native Americans) - part of the Seven Years War
  • British vs. French and East Indians - the 2nd Carnatic War

Rmhermen 13:02, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've checked in the Canadian history text books I have available (published in 1972, 1998, and 2000) and they all call it the Seven Years' War. (A book about the history of Quebec that I have simply refers to it as "the Conquest.") Do Americans really say this battle took place in "both" wars? Since this battle took place between the British and the French, and happened in the actual seven years of the Seven Years' War, I think SYW should at least be more prominent. Adam Bishop 19:10, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes we really say that it took place in both wars. It is no different than saying that the Battle of Midway was a battle in the Pacific War and in World War II. But we wouldn't say that D-day was a battle in the Pacific War, which is equivalent to what the article used to say. All of the battles in the French and Indian War took place between the British and the French and why the British named it the Seven Years War makes about as much sense as the name of the Hundred Years War. (Of course, Americans traditionally count WWII as 1941-1945 but merrily include the invasion of Poland in 1939 as part of the War.) Any suggestion on how to make it more prominent? Rmhermen 20:53, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
Ah you Americans and your crazy war-naming schemes :) I'm not sure how to reword the opening; it just doesn't make sense to me to mention the French and Indian War at all...or, I should say, it would make more sense (to me) to say "the Seven Years' War, also known as the F&I War," but if that's not how you actually use it, then I don't know. Adam Bishop 21:05, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The war started in 1754 in North America, 1756 in Europe and India, 1758 in Africa, 1759 in the Caribbean, 1762 in the Pacific, so they call it the Seven Years Wars. Our system is crazy? What is that the weighted median length of the war? (I could say it doesn't make sense to me to mention the Seven Years War as you probably would never see that below a college-level text but that might reflect too much on the U.S. education system.) How would "was a battle during the French and Indian War, the U.S. name for the North American phase of the Seven Years' War." sound? Rmhermen 22:58, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
Heh, it's the "Seven Years', More or Less, War". I don't think "...the F&I War, the US name..." would work either. I guess what I am thinking is that the battle is more important to Canadians than to Americans, so Canadian usage should be used (this is my POV of course, since it's probably equally important to both). But I don't want to be difficult/nationalistic, so maybe we should just leave it as it is now. Adam Bishop 06:10, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm surprised Canadians don't just call it the "Franco-British War," or some such name like that. If/when Canada can settle on a name for the North American theatre, that could get precedence. Until then... Funnyhat 08:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware we have settled on a name, but apparently it's not good enough, and I'm not going to keep reverting when it gets changed. Adam Bishop 09:15, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have to second Adams's opinion in regard to the name. The 2 names I have ever heard in Québec were "the seven years war" (relatively neutral and put the battles into their context) and "the conquest" (which make sense from a francophone standpoint but not from outside). "french and indian war" to me similarly only make sense if you were from the US or the UK. To people of french descent, using it would be like refering to a conflict as "That war we were involved in" and for other peoples, it sound as if you were picking on the francophones and the natives.--Marc pasquin 00:13, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
While normally sympathetic to this type of distinction between a war and its theatres, I have to say that I've been pretty shocked at the mercilessness with which so many Seven Years' War-related articles have been hunted down and edited to fit the American nomenclature. As far as I know, the United States is the only nation to make reference to "French and Indian Wars" in its histories. As previously stated, we Canadians, as well as the Brits and French, all refer to the North American fighting as part of the "Seven Years' War" (especially since the character and outcome of our war was greatly influence by events in Europe). Germans, Austrians, Spaniards, Swedes, and Russians use the same nomenclature.
Again, I'm sympathetic to the name "French and Indian War", and I do understand that many Americans browse and contribute to these articles. Including links and references to the French and Indian War article whenever appropriate seems like a prima facie good idea.
But I do think that the current trend tends to unduly emphasize "F & I War" at the expense of "Seven Years' War", almost to the point where it seems that readers may be insulated from the European conflict. Bear in mind that the second paragraph of the Seven Years' War article explains and links to the French and Indian War.
The French and Indian War is explained in the body of this article. Mentioning it in the battlebox seems unwarranted, and it clutters up an otherwise aesthetic piece. If people have any passionate arguments they'd like to share for its inclusion, please do so. Albrecht 20:34, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suspect source

There's a reference at the bottom of the article to "Canada, the great islam" by Donald Dillon. The title seems strange enough given the article content, and google searches for Dillon or the title haven't been showing me anything. The ISBN listed is not recognized by the Library of Congress or Amazon. -Joshuapaquin 02:34, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

True...and the anon who added it also added something else that was later removed. So the source has now been removed as well. Adam Bishop 04:27, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Abraham Martin

Is it important to add that Abraham Martin was dead and that the land was not "his" as we would usually considered it, but had been his the previous century? -Acjelen 16:46, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Canadian Militia"

The first paragraph of the second section mentions "100 Canadian militia". Lower Canada didn't exist yet. Is this meant to refer to New French militia? Kimholder 16:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

No, "Canadian" is correct. "New French" could refer to the inhabitants of any French North-American colony, from Acadia to New Orleans, and isn't much use here. Albrecht 17:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] request for peer review, Battle of the Thousand islands

Wikipedia:Peer review/Battle of the Thousand Islands

I Just finished up the main body of this article on a relitivly small engagemet of the French and Indian War. I'm hopeing a peer review will bring some suggestions on how the article can be improved and hopfully bring some more info on the subject. I'd like to see more info on some of the personalities that don't have they're own page to link to, and some more detail on how the battle developed... Any input would be very much appreciated! Mike McGregor (Can) 18:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Site Today

I went to Quebec and the tour guides showed us the plains but they were not real. The real plains are located under an office building and a parking lot, seriously. Rijaman 01:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you find a historical or accademic source to account for this?--Black Orpheus 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
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