Talk:Battle of the Ice

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[edit] Article name

I moved this page to a more direct translation from Russian and German. This in order to make place for a famous battle in English heroic legend and in Norse mythology, which has no other name but the Battle on the Ice. I hope that no one minds.--Wiglaf 06:41, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Actually the proper name of this battle is the Battle OF the Ice not the Battle ON the Ice, so I don't think anyone will mind.
If you want to use a direct translation from German, then you should use Battle on Lake Peipus, which I think is the best version. regards, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Torfgeist


Why was this article moved to a rather general "Battle of the Ice" anyway? Is it about a hockey game or something? Was there a discussion with a consensus? The name Battle of Lake Peipus or even better Battle on Lake Peipus is much more specific, and Peipus is even used by a rather neutral Italian artist. Is Peipus a place name which considered inconvenient from some POV, or what was the reason to move?

I suggest the move to "Battle on Lake Peipus".--Matthead 22:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Never --Ghirla -трёп- 18:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Some search results... Google Books:

Google Scholar:

The current name seems fine to me. Olessi 18:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to note that Lake Peipus is not a Russian name, it is not used in Russophone literature, and it is somewhat stupid to call the battle by a name given to the lake by those who were beaten there so badly. --Ghirla -трёп- 18:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
That has little relevance here. What is relevant, however, is the terminology most frequently used in English to describe the battle. Olessi 19:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla's POV is his POV, but meaningless for English wikipedia, even though it would be interesting if his "losers don't deserve to name a battle" theory would be extended to e.g. Battle of Cannae with a Carthagian name, and Battle of the Little Bighorn with one in Lakota-Northern Cheyenne tongue. --Matthead 05:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Google counts are funny, especially if they are executed properly. Sorry Olessi, but you should try a little harder and make sure that at least the year is mentioned - if not, its surely no historical account of this battle.

Google scholar is similar:

If it is made sure that it is a history book mentioning the year 1242, and not one about Vikings, Norway, Eisenstein or Prokofiev, the counts for "Battle of/on the Ice" drop to one-digit numbers - surely not outnumbering the "Lake Peipus" variants. This article needs to be moved to the proper battlefield, and that is the name of the lake it took place. Sorry for the Russians which chose not to use their name of the lake at all. See also the Battle of the Nations which is at Battle of Leipzig. --Matthead 05:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you feel the title should be moved, feel free to use Wikipedia:Requested moves. Olessi 15:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

==

  • I support the name Battle on Lake Peipus as this is the way I learned it in German Gymnasium, and as it clearly includes the location. A "battle on the ice" could be anywhere not close enough to the equator.

[edit] alternative interpretation

I've removed the “alternative interpretation” section of this article. I'm a graduate student in Russian history and I can safely say that this information is factually wrong. If someone disagrees, please post any references you have to any historical work that supports these claims. I'd love to read them, thanks.

    • I added back in the "inaccurate information" a few weeks ago. I edited it according to information found in Eric Christiansen's The Northern Crusades and William Urban's The Teutonic Knights. Christiansen references the First Novgorod Chronicle and the Livonian Rhyme-Chronicle, while Urban focuses more on the Rhyme-Chronicle. Urban is the one who believes the traditional information on the Livonian contingent to be inaccurate (Grand Master, Livonian vs. Prussian knights etc.). Christiansen is more traditional, as he first quotes extensively from the Novgorod Chronicle, and then balances that with information from the Rhyme-Chronicle. I am not trying to present the "traditional" interpretation as being false. Rather, I have books which present information contrary to the traditional interpretation, and feel it noteworthy to include information from both the First Novgorod Chronicle and the Livonian Rhyme-Chronicle. Olessi 18:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
      • I'm glad to see someone responded. I've read Christenson's book and although I'm unfamiliar with The Teutonic Knights, I've read another book on this subject written by William Urban, called The Baltic Crusade. In my view neither of these authors definitively support any sort of reinterpretation of the evens of this battle. First of all Christenson hardly even mentions this battle, there is barely a page devoted to it in his book. All he does is mention a passage from the Novgorod chronicle and then mentions another passage from the Livonian Rhymed chronicle. There is no analysis of the battle or the sources, it's virtually a side note in his book. Urban (in The Baltic Crusade) does go into some detail describing the battle and he does mention the Livonian Rhymed chronicle in detail. However he himself fully acknowledges the details of the battle, he says directly that the battle involved a large number of combatants on each side and the course of the battle as traditionally presented (Russian archers and the cavalry entering the battle, the knights retreating over the lake and drowning, etc.) is in fact accurate. He also clearly writes that the Livonian Brothers of the Sword ceased to exists in 1237 when they were merged with the Teutonic Knights. So, it was indeed the Teutonic Knights that attacked Russian territories. He does say that it's possible that the remnants of the Livonian Brothers within the Teutonic Knights pushed for this campaign, while others were not so sure of the wisdom of attacking the Russians. To me however, that seems more of an internal political matter within the Teutonic order rather then anything that is directly related to the historical interpretation of the battle itself. Furthermore, he fully admits that this is merely speculation on his part. Even if he is correct in this case, that does not change the scale, tactics, or significance of this battle. Which brings me to my last point. Both of these authors reference the Livonian Rhymed chronicle in their books, what is not mentioned however is that this chronicle is notorious biased and inaccurate. The first thing to mention is, unlike the Novgorod Chronicles, this is not a primary source, it was written over a decade after the battle. Likewise it's biased to the point of absurdity, in Urban's book he quotes a passages where the author claims that Nevsky's forces outnumbered the Teutons 60-1, something that Urban himself points out is blatantly made-up. Here is a link to a small article which describes the Livonian Rhymed chronicle as a historical source. As any historian will tell you these kind of sources can virtually never be taken as the truth. In any case, I think my point stands, what was written in the "alternative interpretation" simply does not stand up to the historical facts.
        • Thank you for the clarification! I am fine with the current version then. Olessi 11:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
          • The current version falls short of an unbiased and neutral article. It would do more justice to an encyclopaedia article once the multiple allegorical references and pro-Russian ideological statements are removed. Novgorod Chronicles are fine and dandy, but one would probably benefit more from knowing, e.g., how many, if any, Estonians participated in the battle, what was the name of the "Grand Master", etc. -- even if that information is from other non-Novgorodian sources. Last, but not least, what is the source (legend?) for the claim under the picture of Kuremäe nunnery that Russian soldiers fallen in the Battle on Lake Peipus had been buried there? Kuremäe lies quite a distance from the battle site, in Virumaa (northeastern Estonia) and moreover, in an area that territory was under Danish control in 1242. 08 July 2005

[edit] Original research

Most of the Knights were German, although there also were a large number of Danes, and the army also included large numbers of Swedish and Estonian mercenaries, there are different figures of how much knights there were, some say 10-12 thousand, some say 400, however, there is a version that there were only 2000-2500 actually german knights, the most forces of Order were probably composed of Estonians, Swedish and other mercenaries. And taking in to account at crushing defeat of knights from turks on 9 april 1241, the version that there were not many teutonic knights, but most were mercenaries from Sweden, Estonia and other. Therefore, Russian forces were numerically a bit more than that of knights, 10000-12000 from Teotonic knights, 15000-17000 from the russian side.

[edit] Citation needed

I added Template:Fact to "the Grand Master, some bishops, and a handful of mounted knights" as the quotation marks indicate the text is quoted from somewhere- if so, from where? Aside from unreferenced wiki-mirrors, Google gives me no indication that the Grand Master was there.[1],[2] This link from a 1900 book by Alfred Nicolas Rambaud indicates the Grand Master was not there. I have not found any sites indicating that Grand Master Gerhard von Malberg was at the battle. If he was there, he would have led the crusaders, not Hermann of Buxhoeveden. Olessi 18:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Vladimir Yershov[3] played "Grand Master Von Balk" in Alexander Nevsky, presumably meaning de:Hermann von Balk, but Balk died in 1239. Olessi 19:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
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