Talk:Battle of Ramla

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[edit] Battles of Ramla/Ramleh

September 7, 1101 may or may not be the date of the first battle of Ramla or Ramleh. It may not be correct as an indicated death date for Stephen of Blois, however.

It certainly conflicts with the date of death indicated in Stephen II, Count of Blois (an article linked to by this one).

The first battle is typically indicated as a victory. Although the actual numbers may have been embellished, there are accounts of how, even though severely outnumbered, Baldwin and his small group carried the day.

The second battle is generally indicated to have been a disaster. Baldwin was fortunate to have escaped with his life. Few others did. Stephen of Blois, is indicated as having died in this second battle. There is more to be found on the net by searching "Battle of Ramleh" and "Ramleh" .

I have seen dates of death for Stephen (and or the second battle) given as sometime in 1102, as May 17, May 19, 27 May, and as 13 Jul 1102. I haven't found anyone offering 1101, however, or indicating that he died in the first battle of Ramla.

I think that when possible, conflicts between Wikipedia articles that are linked should be resolved. If they can't be resolved then an explanation that cites references should be offered.

In addition, I have an issue with the fourth paragraph. The one that begins with "The second battle..." There is actually more in this paragraph regarding Jaffa and subsequent conflict there, than on the second battle of Ramla. The second battle of Ramla seems to be the subject of that particular paragraph and Ramla (not Jaffa, or even Baldwin) certainly is the subject of the article.

The Jaffa mention at least deserves another paragraph, and may be best presented as another article.

--Dogfish 00:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right, the deaths of Stephen of Blois and Hugh of Vermandois (which you noted a couple of days ago) are pretty confused. I think I was responsible for writing these so I am probably to blame; maybe the original sources are confused though, since they are kind of sparse after 1099. I'll check again when I can, but if you can solve these problems, you are welcome to do so. Adam Bishop 01:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)