Talk:Battle of Plataea
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the casualty figures seem a little suspect - has any historian made a better estimate?
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[edit] legends
Aren't there any legends or points of interest concerning this battle?
A day-runner (Pheideppide's job) brought news to the Oracle at Delphi and from there sacred fire, doing the 100+ km trip on the same day Ikokki 23:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] contradiction
it says the number of persians was probably under 80000 but then it says that the persains suffered 200000 casualties. It doesn't make sense.
The >200,000 figure was from Herodotus. But that is beside the point. I think these numbers are all inflated. It's impossible to imagine even 80,000 Persians at the battle, and the 110,000 Greek figure is also almost certainly massively inflated. Countries at that time simply were not capable of fielding, equipping, and supplying armies of that size, especially over long lines of communications (like from Anatolia to Greece). The largest army Rome ever fielded was the one at Cannae, around 87,000, and Rome was far more capable of fielding large armies that Greece or Persia (especially at long distance).
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Herodotus actually gives 300.000 as the number of the Persian forces in Plataea of which 40.000 under Artavazus did not take part in the battle because their leader disagreed with Mardonius's strategy and left, forming the mass of the survivors. This detachment however was later defeated by the forces of Alexander I at the delta of the Strymon river. J.A.R. Munro and Macan at Cambridge Ancient History volume IV confirm the 300.000 figure by noting that under Mardonius the where 6 superior military commanders (one of whom was Artavazus) and 29 "μυριαρχοι" that is literally leaders of 10.000 soldiers. The Persian Empire under Xerxes had a population of over 20.000.000 inhabitants, meaning 300.000 soldiers is only 1,5% of its population when historically under war at least 5% of a state's population get drafted. The preparations for the campaign took some 4 years and that Herodotus mentions 46 different nations and that includes peoples as far as modern-day Afghanistan. The wealth of the Persian treasury was such that it fueled and paid for wars for 50 years after Alexander the Great's death. Also among the preparations was having food and supplies stored all the way to the edge of the Persian empire of 480 BC, that is the border of the kingdom of Macedonia. Thus I don't understand why the Persians could not have fielded such a large army. Rome had a much smaller population base than Persia and thus could gather a smaller army. Let us not forget however that Polybius give a high 6-number figure as the size of the whole army Rome was capable of rallying in the 2nd century BC.
As for the Greeks Herodotus gives a field army of 38.700 hoplites and 71.300 light troops. He goes on and breaks down the hoplites by city-state giving very realistic numbers, which are quite consistant with the army numbers given by Thucydides for the Peloponesian War 50 years later considering the rise in population and wealth in that these fifty years. For the light troop armies the only number that can be honestly debates is the 35.000 helots, that is 7 helots for every Lacedemonian. If however every helot was drafted (something understandable since you don't want a fifth column lying around at home) that number is consistent with the male population of helots as can be implied from archeological data. For the losses Herodotus might give 156 but Plutarch gives a more realistic 1360. I think the page out to be revised to show at least arguements why the armies were that big.Ikokki 23:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)ikokki
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Herodotus was innaccurate at best and frequently inflated numbers. I think this page should be revised to show this. Also, what is this about Alexander?
Good question about Alexader, I'm confused by this too. But don't mistake it with Alexader III the great. This may be the Alexander I of Macedonia, which was conquered along with Thrace during the second expedition of Xerxes.
As for the sub 80,000 estimates, here are some of the modern estimates: One of them even gives the Persians only around 50,000. http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/plataea.htm http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/battle/plataea.html http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=1503 http://www.geocities.com/caesarkevin/battles/Greekbattles2.html
This site gives 120,000 http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/ancient/plataea/default.aspx
There seems to be greater agreement on modern estimates of a Persian force between 70,000 to 80,000. There are some estimates as low as 50,000 as I showed and there is also one high source I found 120,000. Anyway, averaged out the Persian force indeed was about 70,000 to 80,000. Making the casualties now make sense.
Actually there's only 2 sources there, not four. The first site says that some 80,000 was left behing, while Herodotus claimed 120,000. Since Herodotus claimed 300,000 in total, the article's 80,000 is not about the total Persian force. The fourth source doesn't claim less than 300,000 at all, it just states that probably 70,000 Persians fell in the battle. Miskin 12:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I read Ctesias's account at http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photius_03bibliotheca.htm#72 .I'm not sure that he refers to this battle of Plataea since he puts it with Xerxes present and before Salamis Ikokki 08:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Where are the sources for a modern source saying 300,000. I am only aware of that figure said by the Herodotus the "exaggerater". Modern sources claim from a low of 60,000 to a high of 120,000. PLease site source Mishkin, the former range of 70,000-80,000 was mor accurate in an unbiased opinion. Thanks for the link Ikkoki, quite interesting. And its still me anonymous.
Hammond gives 300,000 and so does the history of the greek nation. You're welcome mr Canadian (at least that is what your IP adress says)Ikokki 21:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
It's strage, I've never seen claims below 120,000 anywhere but those two websites. I've removed the exaggerated figure of Diodorus' 500,000 so it's fair to remove also the non-mainstream estimations. We keep the realistic mentions of antiquity and the consensus of modern times. Miskin 10:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- I just realised that the anon had also been edit-warring in the Battle of Mycale. He delivered me a personal attack because he couldn't take the truth, I think we can't expect a lot of neutrality from him. Miskin 10:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
This has to be one of the most respectable internet source I have seen from a Greeks. Though the name of the site is Hellas.net and that means it definitely should have some bias, it does a remarkable job of keeping all patriotism out of the events of history. http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/index.html#history
It gives no more than 250,000 Persians for thermopylae, no more than 50,000 at Plataea for the strength. So Miskin this isn't one source right it's probably 0.5, the way you supposed the previous four sources were only 2. Tell me where are you from Miskin?
As for 60,000 Persians at Mycale, I will continue looking because for all I know a not so popular book with a not so popular author is not as good as a reasonable link to a site. For all I know Miskin could be making up bull. I mean in his quote in the Mycale discussion "The Persian inferiority" interesting I wonder who that author is routing for.
Also Hammond's estimates of 300,000 were straight ripped of from Herodotus, he did not do his own investigation on the issue. As for true Persian numbers at Plataea. Consider this:
We can agree that by modern estimates Xerxes'troops in the grand scale invasion numbered anywhere from 250,000 to 500,000 and almost all of them were present at Thermopylae because it was the first battle of the 480 BCE invasion. Herodotus exaggerates when he gives numbers, but he doesn't lie when he says after Salamis Xerxes takes approximately two thirds of his army away and leaves one third in command of General Mardonius. one third of the original 250,000 to 500,000 (in addition, the dividing number should be even smaller because heavy casualties were sustained by the Persians between the battles of Thermopylae until Salamis, but I will give you the credit because you let bigotory ideas get in the way of your perception of history). So one third of the original figures (just divide by three, Miskin) and you get a range of 83,000 - 166,000.
So I appologize Miskin but 300,000 is way off and utter Greek patriotism BS.
No, we don't agree that Xerxes came with no more than 250,000 in Greece. It was over 400,000. What is accepted in the West is not necessarily what is true. After all, before Ventris decifered linear B Mycenians were believed to be non-Greeks. At a time when there was no data on the flow of Greek rivers Maurice claimed that no more than 175,000 could have come. The same river that according to Maurice could not support 4 liters of water per day for more than 175,000 (Pineios) today supports 800,000 inhabitants using 100+ liters per day and, with the help of the groundwater of Thessaly, waters tens of thousands of hectares of cotton. I know, this is my training, water resources managment. 3 to 1 was a very realistic ratio because the Persians could not defeat the Greeks without numerical superiority. Also when the Persians attacked the Spartans and Tegeans on the hill they had numerical superiority, else they could not hope to win through arrow volleys. Marathon proved that. Hammond did do his homework, which is why he accepts that. If anything it is certain that the Greek hoplites were not the main body of the Persian force since they proved unreliable, and Mardonius knew it. He needed more Persians than Greeks to police the Greeks some of whom had fought against him already (Phocians), some of whom had murdered Persian emissaries (Macedonians). Only the Thebans in the end fought for Persia. When the Spartans and Tegeans defended, the faced a superior numeically force than theirs (ie over 60,000). I am not motivated by nationalism, no thanks. Nationalism died in 1974 when it failed Cyprus. Ethnic states are dead, is what the talking heads in this country say, multicultural societies is the way. That site BTW that you point does not give how it came on these numbers. Oh, and Miskin, let the small number show. Wikipedia is NPOV and those of the critical school can make fools of themselves with small numbers.Ikokki
ΒΤW who says 2/3 left? Herodotus only says that Mardonius could finish the job without navy and with only 30 myriads (that would be baivabaram). The whole army accompanied Xerxes until Thessaly, Artabazus attacked the cities of Halkidiki that had rebelled and later returned. Who says 2/3? Ikokki 21:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
You're right lkokki, let the poor guy have it his way, after all he's bitter from a battle that took place 2500 years ago so he probably needs it. Do you think we should add Diodorus' figure of 500K, or should we leave it out so that he won't start crying? Miskin 23:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
My numbers were for a range of 250,000 to 500,000 Ikkoki (not only the lowest end of the scale), 2/3 making it anywhere from 80,000-160,000. Do you not see the large amount of ridicule in the fact that every source you express that inflates the Persian numbers are Greek. Whether it was marathon or Thermopylae, whenever you cannot find a logical contemporary source showing a large Persian force you return to obvious miscalculated figures from antiquity. Guess where those numbers unfortunately come from again, Greece. You want proof 2/3 left here, just wait. "whats accepted from the west is not always true, guess what buddy who happens to be Greek, almost everything flying out of the mouths of ancient Greek historians is either exaggerated or false. A Greek will obviously have bias, on such issues, so much to say their historians, an english or westerner need not be bias because they are nor Persian nor Greek. Then you go and talk about water suport from the river, so you are going to talk about how much water can be reserved and extracted by ancient methods and modern technology, this does not help your case. At the bottom of this page it says, Xerxes left with the bulk of his army. http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/salamis.htm
Well even when we take your higher end no. of 400,000 consider 20,000 deaths at Thermopylae and possible the same amount if not more by at Salamis since 200 Persian ships were sunk (say 150 on a ship and that's another 30,000 Persians, because they rarely new how to swim). When it says bulk I am pretty sure he left less than 300,000 soldiers. Beacause "the bulk" would not mean 50,000 of an original 350,000.
Can you tell me why this even Greek source doesn't claim a larger Persian force than 50,000 http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/battle/plataea.html
Even at the top of this site it says that the Persians were 120,000 at best, another author claims on the site claims 70,000. http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/plataea.htm#Post%20Salamis Now I never asked for such a low range but I think that 80,000-160,000 should do it simply because this site says that Herodotus claims the Persians had 120,000 including the Immortals.
Yet another source here that claims 120,000 by a contemporary historian. Oops it maay be a Brit though, watch out they always take the side of the Persians. http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/ancient/plataea/default.aspx
Yet another source that says 120,000 http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/B_xerxes.html
Another site that doubts Herodotus' exaggerated claim of 300,000. This one puts the Persian strength at 70,000. http://www.geocities.com/caesarkevin/battles/Greekbattles2.html
This site says that most of the Persian force retreated with Xerxes after Salamis http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Battle_of_Salamis
There are more sources, but honestly I cannot take the time to show them all. Perhaps this 2/3 thing was something I read in a book because I cannot find it anymore, I will keep looking though.
- You asked for my source and I provided them. I bet the phrase "inferiority of the Persians" hit a weak spot, but it was part of the citation and whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. If you edit-war because you think that someone's source is not real, it will eventually get you blocked. You have shown hostile and chauvinist behaviour, therefore you no longer deserve any respect from my part. I'm adding the maxima numbers provided by Diodorus and if you continue rv-warring, I'll report you both for edit-warring as an anon (which is frowned upon) and for making personal attacks. Miskin 23:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Go right ahead, infact talk to Adam Bishop, he's an admin right here usuallytaking care of roman and greek battles. If 300,000 is a source already availbale in the warbox by Herodotus then the contemporary sources I linked to have just as much right to be in the war box. I don't care how many exaggerated sources you wish to put as long as the name is given, I will ensure however that the modern estimaes which I have provided more than enough links to stay, majority estimates between 80,000 to 120,000. Plus I will give you guys a 40,000 persian soldier credit (by adding the higher end of the range to 160,000) because it makes Greek bigots feel warm in side. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.91.176 (talk • contribs).
- Please don't revert more than three times in a 24-hour period. Try to resolve the issue by polite discussion, it will get you farther. Perhaps you could add a sidenote that so-and-so contradicts so-and-so or something. I'm sure it can be worked out with a little cooperation. But reverting is edit warring and the one who reverts to three first can be blocked from editing for a short time. --DanielCD 01:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Edit warring
We do not need an edit war over this issue. Let us set up a section on what was the size of Persian army, or better yet an article. BTW that Hellas NET site you put up mr Canadian anonymous is maintained by a Dutch. Ikokki 08:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Very well Ikkoki, I am ready to discuss with you politely on this issue, I am not however in that mood with Miskin has he has proven I am not worth it. Since we have a 300,000 figure already there by an ancient source (Herodotus, I think it would be wise not to repeat it, especially when I have shown several in my previous posts sites that show a range of 80,000 to 120,000 for the Persian strength. We have the 300,000 figure already there by Herodotus, I have no intentions of changing that but I would like to add the modern estimates to the range of 80,000-120,000 because that is the bulk of many contemporary estimates. With exception to few who get most of their info from ancinet sources like Hammond. So can I ask you is it fair that we already have a 300,000 and you increase the range I put 80,000-120,000 when I have given so many sources they can't all be wrong Ikkoki. Still don't agree?
If you were to remove the 300,000 from the upper end that would mean that no modern historian accepts this. You can put up something more neutral that others accept Herodotus and others estimate it there, but in the main body, not a note Ikokki 21:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
So would you agree to writing in the war box, "modern estimates are as low as 80,000"?
Excellent job Ikkoki, I like the organization of the box now, it gives both numbers/ranges, I am satisfied with this one and if you are too, I say we keep like this. Hey, I guess the admins were right huh, talking certainly got us further than edit warrng. Now we are 2/2 Ikkoki, we have agreed on Marathon and Thermopylae, without it getting too hot tempered, wouldn't you agree.
But for historical purposes perhaps, you can clear me up a bit, that was the fact didn't Herodotus say that Xerxes left 300,000 in total before he left back, and weren't only 250,000 in the control of Mardonius and only 50,000 were in command of Artabazus. Didn't Artabazus and his troops refuse to fight at Plataea because he was unsure that just beacause the persian army could win because of numerical superiority. So wouldn't that put Herodotus' more accurate number for the troops fighting at Plataea, the ones that were only under Mardonius, 250,000 of which.
In the battle of Salamis 200 or so Egyptian ships were not in Aegaleo fighting but in Faneromeni keeping the straight colsed. 20 or so Corinthian ships were on the look out for them and did not engage the Persian fleet. Yet both are in the sum. Why should Artabazus's force be any different? In any case Artabazus had an important role in the third phase of the battle, he let the doors open in the fortified camp. Keep him there Ikokki 17:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] On the reliability of ancient sources and modern historians
When discussing about enemy army sizes in Plataea in the end boils down to how reliable are ancient sources compared to modern historians. Because the fighting earlier took place when I was asleep I did not have time to elaborate on my position. In general, even modern Western historians, start from what is given out of ancient sources. In the Cambridge History of Ancient Greece (which is given away in leaflets by the newspaper Ta Nea) the text gives constant references to ancient Greek sources. Bury or Bengtson or Champollion, when they were first writing that the numbers are small also had a great knowledge of ancient sources. This however does not mean that we must agree with their conclusions. All historians start by listing numbers by ancient sources. Greek historians who have to publish articles in scholarly journals if they want to get promoted in their universities. Anyway most are socialists, leading to freakish statements like the one calling EOKA an organisation of ultraconservatism. In describing the Persian army ancient sources are consistent that it was huge. Herodotus gives huge numbers, Xenophon gives huge numbers, Arrian gives huge numbers, Ctesias (who was thought to be writting Persian propaganda) gives huge numbers, Justinus gives huge numbers, Cornelius Nepos gives huge numbers etc. Either every historian of antiquity was lying or the Persians did field large armies. That does not mean I accept the numbers they give because they do exaggerate at times, but it does not mean that I do not think they were large. How large were the armies fielded? Lets talk about Herodotus. He gives 700,000 as the force that invaded Scythia and 80,000 as that under Mardomius that stayed behind to finish the job. Did Darius invade with 700,000? Most probably not. This is the number given to him by the Scythians, when he visited them 70 or so years later, enlargened by the fear it produced. 80,000 staying behind under Mardonius is realistic. Herodotus probably talked to someone close to Mardonius. On the battle of Plataea, which is what interests us here, Herodotus gives at least twice the Persian army as 300,000. He also gives us info on what happened inside Mardonius's staff. Obviously he had talked to someone on Mardonius staff. Even if the one who gave Herodotus the 80,000 number does not exist and I made a bad assumption earlier, he most definitely talked to Alexander of Macedon whose propaganda he repeats. Anyway, the only time Iphicrates managed to defeat with lighter troops a phallanx he had a 7 to 1 numerical advantage. 3 to one for archers seems realistic. Ikokki 08:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Ikkoki, I didn't quite grasp what you were trying to conclude there, are you saying that 80,000 is a more reasonable number than most thought, or is it that this 80,000 no. was propoganda, can you please elaborate or clarify.
What basically I am saying is that Herodotus should not be rejected lightly. It is better to attempt to reconstruct the truth using Herodotus than by outright rejecting him. Mardonius probably commanded 80,000 in the Thracian/Scythian campaign. Darius probably invaded with these 80,000 plus the Imortals and 1 or 2 baivabarams more. But then again this is my conclusion. I know from my experience that changing someone's formed opinion is very difficult.Ikokki 12:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or did this article just get significantly shorter, did an admin do that, I hope Miskin was not adding false stuff into the article that led to an almost deletion of half the article. --Arsenous Commodore 18:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Someone must have screwed it accidentaly. I'll fix it back.Should have checked it out earlier...Ikokki 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
