Talk:Battle of Nechtansmere

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Contents 1 The name of the battle 2 Another Battle? 3 Reason for the battle 4 Possible clarifications?

[edit] The name of the battle

Would it not be more appropriate to have this battle referred to as "The Battle Of Dunnichen", as it is known in Scotland?

Lianachan 09:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

If everyone else calls it Nechtansmere, wouldn't that be more appropriate? Adam Bishop 10:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Isn't it normal for a battle to be referred to by whatever the victors called it? This one is only known as "Nechtansmere" due to Bede, who is notoriously unreliable when it comes to Scottish history. Although the Picts themselves probably called it something similar to Guereth Linn Garan, it would definately be more appropriate to refer to it by the Scottish name of the "Battle Of Dunnichen" (or even "of Dunnichen Moss").

Lianachan

Not necessarily, if it has a common name that is different from the name the victors give it. Adam Bishop 11:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

True, but I don't think Dunnichen is actually that obscure, or localised, a name for the battle. It seems to be well known by both names. Historically, The Annals Of Ulster refer to "the battle of Dun Nechtain" and The Annals of Tigernach mention "the battle of Dunnichen". Those, of course, are two of the major sources of information about both this battle and the early history of the northern British Isles. Surely it's worth, at the very least, a mention that the battle is also known as "The Battle Of Dunnichen"? Lianachan

Of course, mentioning that would be fine. I suppose it doesn't really matter what the title is as long as one name redirects to the other. Adam Bishop 16:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Dunnichen is by far the most common word used by academics these days, Dun/Duin Nechtain or Dunnichen being much more common. But I don't see what difference it makes; Dunnichen is in any case an anglicization of Dun Nechtain, so the Northumbrians would still have the last laugh. and the Picts would remain as silent as they were. ;) - Calgacus 06:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

With regards to the last laugh - I've already mentioned Guereth Linn Garan ... ;) Lianachan 07:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, Linn Garan is Welsh, from southern Wales. I know why that might be like Pictish, but of course, it isn't. - Calgacus 12:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's as close as we're likely to get to whatever the Picts themselves called the battle. I think the first time I saw it mentioned was Graeme Cruickshank's book. Lianachan 14:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Well,perhaps, but it'd be were risking to presume that. The eighth century Pictish kings probably spoke Old Irish, and Dun Nechtain is actually a plausible Pictish word anyways. - Calgacus 14:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly, I've just been looking at a transcript of Historia Brittonum, and it mentions the battle while talking about Ecgfrith. It says A tempore istius belli vocatur Gueith Lin Garan, translating it as From that time the battle is called "Gueith Lin Garan"". Lianachan 01:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, almost all work on this battle today refers to it as Dunnichen. Nechtansmere is a little outdated now. I vote the page be moved. - Calgacus 19:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

That's true. Apart from here, I haven't seen it refered to as Nechatansmere anywhere for ages. I (obviously) would support a move. Lianachan 23:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I have updated information regarding the siting of the battle. A new theory by Alex Woolf of St. Andrews University locates the battle in Dunachton, Invernessshire near Loch Insh. This siting follows on from his ground-breaking and compelling theory that relocates the Pictish Fortriu in Moray and Ross rather than further south. If the centre of Pictish power lay in the north, then the Dunachton siting would seem quite sound. --Karl Craig 02:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Woolf's new article conclusively proves Fortriu was in northern Scotland, and this is accepted by the Picticist community. The Dunachton theory is rather less compelling, but still interesting. Arguing against it is the proximity of the Aberlemno battle scenes to the old Dunnichen location, and the sheer distance from Ecgfrith's Northumbrian base. Ultimately, the reason I don't buy it is because I believe that the campaign is an English response to Verturian aggression; the run-up to the battle is a series of attacks by the men of Fortriu all around their borders (e.g. Orkney, Dundurn, etc); Bridei is reclaiming the land of his grandfather, "southern Pictland". I would not rule out the Dunachton theory though; I'd just say it is a little more contraversial than the Fortriu arguments. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 02:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Battle?

This seems as good a place to ask as any. A battle took place in 1130 between Óengus of Moray and David I's general Edward Siwardsson, at a location somewhere in Scotland north of the forth, but south of the grampians. I wanna open an article for this battle (I have all the main sources in front of me), but I can't find a name by which this battle is commnly called. Anyone know if there is one? - Calgacus 15:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps The Battle Of Inchbrae? Lianachan 18:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, that article is mostly historical fiction. I did |Siward Inchbrae| on a google search and found nothing. I'm curious where the writer got that idea from though, it could help find a real name. - Calgacus 18:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Corrected: Inchbare, not Inchbrae. ;) - Calgacus 18:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for the battle

I notice the article says that Ecgfrith's attack was possibly to prevent Pictish southern raids. I understand that the most common view now is that this attack, which Ecgfrith carried out against the counsel of his advisors, was done because Bridei had either considerably reduced his tribute payments or had stopped them entirely. In the years prior to this battle, Bridei had been reasserting/expanding his influence all over Scotland - attacking Dunnottar in 680, the Orkney islands (which he "annhilated") in 681 or 682 and in Strathearn in 682 or 683. It's likely that Bridei saw an opportunity to take advantage of Ecgfrith's weakened position in the light of his defeat at Trent, especially baring in mind his own increased power. Lianachan 01:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct. See the new article just completed on King Bridei - Calgacus 16:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible clarifications?

The article currently seems to read that the Brythonic and Scotti kingdoms mentioned in the article (Strathclyde, Dal Riata, etc) were instead Pictish. Should this not be corrected, seeing as they were not? Dal Riata was a Gaelic-speaking Scotti kingdom, while Strathclyde and Gododdin were Breton.

I couldn't interpret the relevant part that way myself, but I have made a slight edit which hopefully should help make the distinction. Lianachan 11:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)