Talk:Bath

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is a former featured article. Please see its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

Bath appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 25, 2005.

Bath has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Bath is either included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version (the project page is at WPCD Selection). Please maintain high quality standards, and if possible stick to GFDL and GFDL-compatible images.

This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Geography article has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale.

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to places in the UK. If you wish to contribute you can visit the project page where there are resources & guidelines, to do lists and discussions.	United Kingdom Portal
This article has been rated "FA" on the Wikipedia Version 1.0 quality scale.
On the project page you can find detailed guides on how to write about counties and settlements, as well as where to find statistics, references and other useful things. Additionally, the following has been identified as specific improvements this article needs: Government Divisions of Bath Possible split of history section to History of Bath. Cite more sources, especially for the climate section which is mostly facts and figures. Review the linking - are all those minor tourist attractions ever actually going to have an article of their own? With the list of places of interest consider either splitting or putting it into columns using tables to reduce whitespace. The article is quite long. Consider making a Culture of Bath section and consolidating Culture, Media and Sport using Wikipedia:Summary style. Add a local map, originally requested at Requested_and_orphan_maps. There's a useful one at the bathblitz site quota 19:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Is it GFDL/PD? Joe D (t) 19:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Give more information on the hot spring themself : how much water, how it evolved, composition, what it is good for, what it is supposed to be good for, where it comes from, age of the water (how long it was underearth)... --Astirmays ANd how many molecules of Ceasar's last spit it contains? quota 19:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC) I agree, IMO these details belong on the Roman Baths article. Joe D (t) 19:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Railway rewrite 2 WP:RM 2.1 Discussion 2.2 Decision 3 Comparison of size with London, Paris and New York 4 Two dot maps? 5 Bath Spa name change 6 References 7 Bath in the Arts 8 Vandalism 9 Media 10 Relationship to Bath Spa 11 springs 12 Blues festivals 13 Accuracy of facts 14 Herschel 15 Education 16 Food 17 Bath Hot Springs and Explanation of my Edits 18 Should there be a section about the london road and or grosvenor place? 19 Famous Bath residents 20 Culture 21 Requested move 21.1 Survey 21.1.1 Survey - Support votes 21.1.2 Survey - Oppose votes 21.2 Discussion 21.2.1 Bath (city in England)?

[edit] Railway rewrite

The text previously read:

In addition, the city lies on the Kennet and Avon Canal, the navigable River Avon and on the main London-West railway line (once joining three different railways, the Great Western Railway, the Midland Railway, which also half-owned with the London and South Western Railway the the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway), which connects the city to the rest of the country.

which makes no sense to me. Surely the London-West railway was the Great Western Railway, not just a linking line between the GWR and the Midland, etc. In any case I think trying to deal with both canal and rail in one big sentence is asking too much.

I've also moved the ownership details of the S&DJR to its page, where it belongs rather than cluttering up the Bath page. Hopefully my changes actually say what I think the above was trying to say. -- Chris j wood 21:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good edit. The Avon valley inland of Bath, btw., is something of a classic as it has all 4 transportation types in same narrow space (road, rail, canal, river). Often quoted in Geog. textbooks. Would be nice to capture that. quota

[edit] Comparison of size with London, Paris and New York

This comparison seems rather odd, given that London, Paris and New York are much, much bigger cities. Also why London, Paris and New York, but not Tokyo, Sao Paolo or Devizes?. No other UK city article contains a similar comparison. I'm very tempted to just remove this comparison. What does the team think?. -- Chris j wood 17:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why it does any harm? Add a comparison to Tokyo if you wish - it merely serves to give people a sense of perspective. --Oldak Quill 17:37, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two dot maps?

Is there any reason why there should be two maps giving the location of Bath? I'm tempted to remove the pink one, since most UK places use the green one. -- Joolz 17:52, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, the pink map should go. Joe D (t) 17:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bath Spa name change

Bath Spa University College has now officially changed its name to Bath Spa University. I'm a student there and I recieved a webmail stating as much yesterday. Iron Ghost 11:16, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

There are a lot of "facts" in this article that are not in anyway backed up. There is a vague list of "references" that aren't connected to the text. For example, the introduction has a population figure, which isn't supported by any of the references. This is supposed to be a featured article. Joe D (t) 01:09, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bath in the Arts

Is this the same city referred to in Chaucer's tale about the Wife of Bath? -Dozenist talk 01:55, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. -- Beardo 14:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Article is being vandalized. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.175.52.127 (talk • contribs) 03:29, 25 September 2005 (UTC).

The geography section was vandalised. --Okieman1200 09:00, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

All back now, I think. --rbrwr^± 09:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

OOPS! I think I accidentally reverted to a vandalised page in error. Sorry! --A bit iffy 11:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

This page has been popular the last few days as far as vandalism goes. Has it been linked off somewhere big? --fvw* 23:10, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

It's the featured article on the main page. I think that when an article is featured on the main page it's best just to do damage limitation (i.e. remove overt vandalism), but leave everything else and clean it up when things calm down. JeremyA (talk) 23:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, so it is, thanks. Who would have thought it, dear old Bath on the front page.

I'm a big fan of using today's featured article as an intro-to-wikipedia thing, and I'm glad they remain unprotected. --fvw* 23:33, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I got so tired of people suggesting we protect the main page FA that I created a boilerplate response - user:Raul654/protection →Raul654 23:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, sometimes I think a lot of "discussions" on wikipedia could benefit from the templating treatment. --fvw* 23:40, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Media

In the section about media statistics are given for the number of newspapers Sold but I think it needs to say wether this includes the free newspaper.

[edit] Relationship to Bath Spa

There is an extrememly stubby article Bath Spa which probably either needs to be removed and turned into a redirect or a disambiguation page. In varying different contexts 'Bath Spa' might either mean the railway station (which the page previously redirected to) or the new Thermae Bath Spa or the city of Bath itself. I wonder if someone who has a better grip on how these things are generally done could take a look at the problem and sort it out? At the moment the page is something of a non-event. Mazzy 13:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Bath Spa is now a disambiguation page. --MichaelMaggs 19:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] springs

I would have liked to find here more information on the hot spring themself : how much water, how it evolved, composition, what it is good for, what it is supposed to be good for, where it comes from, age of the water (how long it was underearth)... It is at least why the City has developped and its name. Astirmays 11:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Still nothing about the spings in Bath ? I don't have the information myself... Astirmays 19:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is so good that I won't do this edit myself: The early sentence "The city is founded on the only naturally-ocurring thermal spa in the United Kingdom" troubles me. Surely one or more of the many Roman baths in Wales, England, and elsewhere in the U.K. were "thermal" springs. They may well be unused since Roman times, but is the word "spa" (as opposed to "spring") the only thing that makes the quoted sentence "accurate"? Stagehand 15:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blues festivals

I'd appreciate some detail (perhaps a new stub) about the 1969 and 1970 blues festivals which took place in Bath, host to the likes of Led Zepellin, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd etc. TheMadBaron 07:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy of facts

There are many uncited statistics in the climate section. 50% of days are overcast is debatable. Why are there figures for 2003; shouldn't they be for an average year? Plus these figures for 2003 are incorrect, the "extreme" of 14.2C is very odd. If it is refering to whole months, I'd imagine August 2003 to have an average of at least 19C.

The data for demographics is for the Bath and North east Somerset local authority. Bath only makes up about half of the population of this district, possibly slightly less. The paragraph starts by mentioning the surrounding areas, and then goes on to talk about only Bath, when it is still actually refering to the whole district.

The tourism section says "Bath is the most visited city outside of London for tourists travelling to the UK". Has anyone got a source for this? I thought it was Edinburgh but I may be mistaken.

Sorry to trouble you with all that. Marky-Son 00:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Herschel

i thought of adding the fact that William Herschel lived and worked here. but could not quite figure out where it would fit in. --Hydman 09:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree he should be mentioned - there is a link to the William Herschel Museum already in the places of interest section. Maybe he could be added to the 18th Century history section? DuncanHill 10:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Education

I have already cleaned up this section (a while ago), but I think the list of "notable" secondary schools includes all but one of the city's schools. I thought that maybe the list should be made complete, given as a complete list (rather than a list of notable school) and maybe in bullet points rather than a messy paragraph? What's the consensus on this?Abbyemery 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

i did it! 86.137.111.33 20:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to make the Education section more compact, with a right aligned table - but this doesn't work as well as I'd hoped, but is perhaps OK. If there are objections we can go back. I think we need an Education in Bath article, so we can trim this section back. BTW Monkton Combe isn't inside the city, so I'll drop that one. Rwendland 12:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What has happened to the Education section? The table is positioned over the text and the text underneath is currently unreadable. Does anyone know how to fix it? Dahliarose 09:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've abandoned the align=right for the table, a shame as it looked nice with a recent Firefox & standard XP SP2 IE. Though it did go weird on narrow window size. Rwendland 14:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Food

As a Bath resident I am concerned about the prominence of Sally Lunn buns in Bath related articles generally. This seems more of an advert to me for the resturant rather than an accurate refection of its importance in Bath.--An unsigned contribution.

I have never been to Bath, but Sally Lunn does appear very prominently in the article. From that, one might think she was one of the most important people to ever live in Bath. This is not true? --Filll 21:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Sally Lunn's house is notable because it is the oldest building in Bath. The buns themselves are famous but not particulary notable. Also, they are disgusting. Not relevant, but my opinion. Abbyemery 16:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that it isn't Bath's oldest building, despite its tireless self-promotion as such - but I can't remember which building has the better claim. Can current Bath residents help? I left in 1999. Notreallydavid 12:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC) (And the buns never did me any harm.)

I have done a little editing to remove what might be read as (perhaps inadvertent) promotional copy. --MichaelMaggs 19:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bath Hot Springs and Explanation of my Edits

I investigated the Bath Hot Springs to substantiate the claim that they were the only hot springs in the UK. I was able to find that this is true, by some definitions, and compiled a list of 10+ definitions of hot springs with references. I also am not sure how many hot springs there are in Bath. Some of it depends on your definition of what a hot spring is, or a separate hot spring. Some of what are referred to as bath hot springs are in fact drilled wells. So to be honest I do not really know how many hot springs there are, naturally and otherwise, in Bath. I would steer clear of any claims of numbers (I was the one who made the list that apparently shows 5 in Bath. That was just a guess from the sources and I do not trust it that much). --Filll 14:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well done. Your skepticism is very valuable. Shame on me for relying on WP as a source (no pun intended) —almost as bad as having no source at all. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should there be a section about the london road and or grosvenor place?

above ^

[edit] Famous Bath residents

Should there be a section with this title? If done well it would be interesting and informative, but very long.Notreallydavid 14:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture

'Bath Abbey is...the largest concert venue in the city...' Doesn't the Forum have a larger capacity? Notreallydavid 14:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Bath → Bath (city)
Bath (disambiguation) → Bath

• There are many other notable uses for bath and Bath.
• Disambiguation page for Bath should be at Bath.
• See Cork (city) and Cork.
• While there are other relatively small cities named Bath, this Bath is the only large, famous and particularly notable one, and, so, it makes sense to disambiguate it from all the other subjects that share the Bath/bath name with the standard Wikipedia disambiguation parenthetic remark, (city). See Cork (city).
• Bath is not the primary topic for the name, per WP:DAB#Primary topic, which says:

• When there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (...), then that topic may be used for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. Where there is no such clearly dominant usage there is no primary topic page.

No one can reasonably claim that the city Bath is used "much more" than the word bath, and, so, the city is not the primary meaning of the term, bath, and, therefore, it should not be the primary topic.

• Others have argued (in the 2005 survey for a similar move, above) that bath (the word, not place) is not encyclopedic, and, so, this city is clearly the most notable encyclopedic use of the name. However, with the fairly recent moves of Cork to Cork (city) and even Misery to Misery (novel), the convention of treating "common words" (like bath and misery) as "unnotable" and "not encyclopedic" appears to be changing in this respect. Also note that the Hair article is about the stuff on your head, not the (arguably) more encyclopedic famous stage production and film (which are at Hair (musical) and Hair (film)).
• Besides, it's not like Bath is a global city. If it were, that might have made it notable enough to "trump" the other uses.

Serge 03:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

[edit] Survey - Support votes

1. Support. I'm the nominator. --Serge 03:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
3. Support --Filll 06:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Thaurisil 07:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Strong support per nom, to Bath, Somerset. -Patstuart^talk|edits 12:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
6. Support move to Bath, Somerset as discussed below. Ambivalent at best to Bath (city). --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
7. Support move to Bath, Somerset as discussed below. Not fond of Bath (city) either, which reminds me of Bath City F.C.. —Grstain | Talk 14:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
8. Support per nom, but would prefer ScottDavis' proposal of Bath, Somerset. - Evv 14:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
9. Support Bath, Somerset -- Strongly opppose Bath (city) -- Bath (city) is ambiguous, as there are many cities named Bath. Primary topic does not apply to subjects that are already disambiguated, otherwise you'd need Bath (city) (disambiguation). – Anþony  talk  16:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - Oppose votes

1. Oppose - The city is really the best to stay here. -- Beardo 04:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Oppose. Bathing and Bathtub have sufficiently different (and logical) names. No other place named Bath is anywhere near as notable. This is the article I'd expect to see here, not the disambig. That said, I think Bath, Somerset is preferable to Bath (city). FiggyBee 16:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

If the word bath originated here, getting named after the baths in Bath because the place was called Bath first, then that would be an argument for the place being the primary topic. But the English word bath is not named after this place, but is derived from the Germanic Bad that has nothing to do with the baths in Bath. --Serge 04:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Review of the Category:Towns in Somerset and Special:Whatlinkshere/Bath suggests that if the article is to be moved, that Bath, Somerset would be the preferred name, not Bath (city) which might be interpreted to refer to any number of the places listed at Bath (disambiguation). This was also noted in the move discussion 16 months ago (earlier in this page if it doesn't get archived). Do the locals have an opinion? --Scott Davis ^Talk 06:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • (self followup) It's also supported by WP:NC:CITY#United_Kingdom that Bath, Somerset is preferred if Bath is not available. --Scott Davis ^Talk 06:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not a local, or at least to Bath, but there are many places named Bath (many more than on the current disambiguation page, I was surprised to discover), and so it might be a good idea to not call this one Bath (city), even though it is the most famous Bath apparently. I was also surprised to find out that a bath was not named after Bath, but both a bath and Bath apparently originated with the Old High German word "baed", to heat.--Filll 06:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly local to Bath (living in Bath and North East Somerset) and would support Bath, Somerset over Bath (city). The difficulties caused caused by the differences between traditional & ceremonial counties, particularly in relation to unitary authorities, is ongoing & confusing for many (including me).— Rod ^talk 14:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bath (city in England)?

A title of Bath, Somerset implies that Bath, Somerset is the name that is most commonly used to refer to this city. Clearly, it is not. The most common name is Bath, period. I prefer to use standard parenthetic disambiguation than to use a differerent/less common name in the title. Is Bath (city in England) more acceptable than Bath (city)? --Serge 15:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME: "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative." Disambiguators are only necessary when the only acceptable name is in unavailable. – Anþony  talk  16:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Is Bath, Somerset a "well-accepted alternative name" for the subject? Is it even a name? --Serge 16:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well it gets a quarter of a million GHits... FiggyBee 16:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

And Bath, England gets that many GHits again: half a million. My question stands: is Bath, Somerset even a name for this city? Or is the name just Bath and Bath, Somerset is just a location-qualified reference? If it's the latter, then it is not a "well-accepted alternative name" for the subject, and should not be used for the title of the article. --Serge 17:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)