Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Archive4

Here's an idea that would add to the project, I believe. I was just revising the Barnstars on Wikipedia page and I saw that something was missing: we don't have a Barnstar to recognize Wikipedians who dedicate time and efforts to creating images for the project. I mean, right here, on this forum, there's some people I'd like to see recognized for their work in creating the images of the awards guys like me keep thinking up, but can't design themselves. This does not appear to be covered by the Photographer's Barnstar, which is for those who upload photographs to the website. I feel this award could comprise both those who create images (either new images, such as the barnstars, or graphic files of existing images, such as those who create images of flags, medals and other symbols that we use to illustrate articles) and those who combine two or more previously existing images — as in a montage — to create something objective that we can use (Photoshop, etc.). If the idea takes, we could call it The Graphic Designer's Barnstar, or The Wiki Graphic Designer's Barnstar. What about it? Regards, Redux 02:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

In keeping with the concept of "creation of proposed images", I'll suggest an image which has half being a sketch on the back of an envelope and half being a Barnstar (either image or a precisely-drawn Barnstar). (SEWilco 02:25, 15 August 2005 (UTC))

Possible image 1. (Sango123)

Possible image 2. (Sango123)

That's an excellent idea, Redux. Users like Wapcaplet would definitely deserve The Graphic Designer's Barnstar. I have two image suggestions on the right. Sango123 18:47, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Sango, you know, for all the work you've done on this forum alone, you're an obvious candidate for this award yourself. ;) I like the first image best. Anyone care to comment and/or offer other image suggestions? Redux 21:19, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I prefer the first image. Somehow, the second seems slighty Masonic. Bratsche^{talk 5 pillars} 04:13, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

(Whoops, didn't mean to do that; I was just applying gradients in random directions. Sango123 13:46, August 22, 2005 (UTC))

So far, only a few users have given their [valuable] input to this proposal, and they have all been positive. I'd love to get more of a brainstorm going for this, but if no one else will add anything to the discussion, I feel we could create the award with the name I proposed and Sango's first proposed image, which has received the support of all the users so far (Bratsche and myself, really). Perhaps this will pick up over this weekend? Regards, Redux 04:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Add the graphic designer's barnstar to BoW. Deryck C. 13:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Will no one else pitch in? If not, the final format would be:

The Graphic Designer's Barnstar may be awarded to those who work tirelessly to provide Wikipedia with free graphic files, either original or a version of a knwon design (e.g. a country's flag).

This award was introduced by Redux on August 15, 2005 and was designed by Sango123.

Anyone? Regards, Redux 00:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Go, go go, Redux! Of course, support. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 04:18, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Transparent background looks better. Deryck C. 09:53, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Award created. This discussion will next be archived. Regards, Redux 13:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this the worst first draft ever?

Owing to recent events it's been particularly difficult to keep the Muslim and islamic related articles POV Free. there have been attacks from so called islamophobes and bigots on one side, and zealots (like me, apparently) on the other, that being said there are some users out there doing an amazing job. User:Mustafaa (Granted hes away now), BrandonYusufToropov and the likes. I have created what may be the worst first draft of a barnstar ever, but sure, there you go.The work put in my these editors in these regards has been amazing, and they desrve somewthing unique to that field, I would have thought.--Irishpunktom\^talk 19:05, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

I must say, a religion-oriented Barnstar (whichever religion that may be) can be somewhat problematic, we might end up obliged to create Barnstars for all the other major religions (and maybe some of the minors too). Furthermore, I'm not quite clear on what it is the scope you propose. If it's for outstanding work in Islam-related articles, that's one thing, but if it's for keeping POV and vandalism out of Islam-related articles, we already have Barnstars that cover those fields. Regards, Redux 21:22, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we can have a "Barnstar of Religion" instead. Deryck C. 13:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds good.. But.. what would it look like? --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:27, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Redux; Basicly, its for all 3. I mean, look at what Mustafaa did with The Banu Qurayza article. --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:36, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

This area of study already falls under the critiera of the Barnstar of High Culture. Religion also seems to attract POV like flies to honey, so I think a barnstar of this nature might be problematic. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 13:45, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. Even a more general "religion Barnstar" could cause trouble. As Bratsche said, good content contributions can be rewarded with the Barnstar of High Culture; and as I had said, work done to keep POV and vandalism in check can be rewarded with other existing Barnstars, such as The Tireless Contributor, the Defender of the Wiki or The Barnstar of Diligence. Regards, Redux 13:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps consideration should be given to creating a Barnstar for people who go to great lengths to welcome new Wikipedians? Jdhowens90 20:09, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• We have one already: Random Acts of Kindness. There is also a personal user award called the "Order of the Smiley" that is given out to people who are welcoming users left and right. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:49, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree with Zscout. The scope seems to be covered already. Regards, Redux 00:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Reject the proposal. Any general awards, even the diligence barnstar can cover this scope. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 12:10:49, 2005-09-06 (UTC)

What about the Newcomer barnstar for new wikipedians who proved to have made a lot of fine contributions, while respecting wikipedia policies, and accepting criticism despite their small time in Wikipedia. CG 19:45, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Already covered in the Excellence Newcommer Award. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:48, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I didn't noticed it. I was looking for a star-like barnstar. CG 08:45, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
    • It's alright. Not all Wikipedia awards are stars, like the WikiThanks and the FA Wikimedia. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • The Barnstar of Diligence and Resilent Barnstar can both also cover this field. Deryck C. - the very original one

For those who have an itch to fix every bit of minor spelling, thus helping the article overall. Already covered by another barnstar? -- Riffsyphon1024 21:54, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

• The Minor Barnstar already covers that. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The Barnstar of Diligence also covers that. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:08:52, 2005-09-07 (UTC)

• • • Dern. I guess I've lost my touch. -- Riffsyphon1024 03:32, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
      • Welcome back Riff. It'll come back to you! ;) Redux 04:38, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Anymore opinions about this proposal, then? Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • Nope, I believe this is done for. Redux 23:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Looks like it. Zach (Sound Off) 23:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Have You Seen This Barnstar?

For Wikipedians who are long overdue for a Barnstar, but never recieved one for one reason or another, usually anonymity or underappreciation. "Apparently, their Barnstar has been missing. Can you find it?" Karmafist 01:40, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

• LOL! I love this one! I hear about this on IRC a lot and it is almost on the same lines as "He isn't an admin already?!" Good work. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:45, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
  • You mean like something a user might place on his/her own talk page or user page as sort of a "hint" to others that a Barnstar for their work is long overdue? I like... You might say it would be the opposite of the "Barnstar-free Zone" tag. Was that what you meant? Regards, Redux 03:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Yep, sounds like it. It's basically something for users who aren't getting the respect they deserve. Karmafist 13:02, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
• I love it. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 03:08, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
• I agree with this one. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 10:17:53, 2005-09-05 (UTC)

• Image needs a little more work, but I agree. --Wulf 03:21, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
  • Please, define "a little more work". Thanks, Redux 03:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• For example, there should be some better ways to compile the barnstar and words onto the milk tetrapak image. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

• • That might be beyond my photoshop expertise, but I can give it a try and I don't mind anyone else who can bring it up to speed fiddling with it. Karmafist 00:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
  • You're the only person who has the original image... I don't think anyone else has the power to do this... Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • We got other Barnstars drawn worse than this, so we can just use this now. It's a wiki, someone can improve it later. I had to toy around with the Barnstar of National Merit a few times before we got the drawing we are using today. Zach (Sound Off) 16:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

After updating DYK for a couple times last week, I felt that there were certain editors who created many exceptional Did you know? facts (and articles), and that there were several admins who diligently updated the DYK template routinely. I feel that the contributions of these people could be awarded with a DYK barnstar. Admittedly, I'm no artist, but I do have an idea for the barnstar: impose Image:Updated DYK query.png over a barnstar. Let me know what you think! Thanks, Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 20:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Not that the idea isn't good, but the problem I see is that it seems to be too narrow a field for it to have its own Barnstar — I mean, it would be a Barnstar for work on a single, albeit important, template. A wiki Barnstar works better if it can be awarded to a larger spectrum of users, in a broader contribution base. I feel that the good work that is done there can be justly rewarded with some of the already-existing Barnstars, such as the Barnstar of Diligence, or the Tireless Contributor Barnstar. Regards, Redux 22:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps expand it so that the barnstar covers new articles? Something like The Barnstar of Creating New Articles (I'm sure someone could think of a much less corny name...) ?Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 22:05, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

While I cannot think of a name, I thought up of a corny design. Ok, there is a stork flying in the sky. In the stork's mouth, there is a blanket and in the blanket, there is a minor Barnstar. In the US, when people think of storks, we see them delivering babies (and that is how I saw babies delivered in TV until I was given a reality check in 5th or 6th grade). As for name...gee...all I can think up is the Creationist Barnstar. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

An award for users who create new articles...now that could work! Let's see, we already have a wiki award (not a Barnstar) for users who create or get articles up to featured status – it's a medal with a very interesting image. So perhaps we could take it from there in creating the appearance of this award? I feel it could be rather fitting. As for the name, regardless of whether it turns out to be a medal or a Barnstar, how about something like The Trailblazer Barnstar/Award/Medal. I thought of "trailblazer" because by creating a new article, a user introduces a new theme to Wikipedia, and many a time it does pick up, with many people interested — it was just a matter of getting it started, and once someone does, the topic can attract interest and thrive, so in a sense, the creator of the article may be "opening new paths" in the project. About the appearance, if we decide to go with a Barnstar, I like Zscout's idea. Alternatively (if the stork thing turns out to be too hard to come by), we could also use the ancient image of a hatching egg (with a Barnstar coming out of it). That's also an universal allusion to the beginning of life. Regards, Redux 23:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I like the name of The Trailblazer Award or Honor or Medal! Hmm... What about a barnstar blazing a path? The stork and egg proposals are also good ideas. Thanks, Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 21:24, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Sango drew this earlier. Could we make the green star darker and superimpose the Question mark over the star? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:40, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The star looks great. But it doesn't really evoke the "theme"... Not to be difficult (especially since I can't come up with anything better myself), but perhaps we could design something more allusive of trailblazing (assuming we're going with that name)? Regards, Redux 05:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's true that there's no barnstar to people who contribute to wikipedia affairs. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 05:15:06, 2005-09-03 (UTC)

This one is supposed to go to users who are prolific in starting new [valid] articles on Wikipedia. Redux 05:25, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Redux, earlier, the DYK template was green with a black questionmark. I was trying to evoke that design when thinking on my Barnstar idea. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Should there be an award for people who contribute greatly to wikipedia affairs? (not the articles, but the projects themselves) Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 06:04:06, 2005-09-03 (UTC)

I was given a Barnstar of Diligence for working in this namespace, and I gave out Barnstars or the Working Man's Barnstar. So, we could use normal Barnstars for that. Personally, why looking at it, the Working Man's Barnstar can be given out for working so hard for creating new articles. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes, but I believe that this field (outstanding activity in creating new articles) merits its own Barnstar. I mean, theoretically we wouldn't need any Barnstar other than the Original Barnstar, which can be awarded for, really, anything. Plus, other, older Barnstars also have an almost unlimited spectrum — such as The Barnstar of Diligence, The Working Man Barnstar, etc... But many topics have been found worthy of a specific Barnstar. When an idea is turned down, it's never simply because it could be covered by one of those "broader" Barnstars, but rather because their suggested theme is not worthy of a Barnstar on its own. There's the example right here: the original idea on this discussion, a Barnstar for work in the DYK template, was turned down — although also because it could be covered by said Barnstars — mainly because the proposed scope was not fitted for a specific Barnstar (as I said, it would have been a Barnstar for a single, albeit important, template). Notice that this is regarding those Barnstars that can be given out to almost any kind of work, but we also shut down many proposals whose scopes, although theoretically appropriate, are redundant with some already-existing specific Barnstars — this cannot apply to those "broad" Barnstars, because they have a very wide field of application (and virtually anything would be redundant when put against them). Regards, Redux 23:10, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

In that case no additional barnstars is needed tp be created. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:16:47, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

That would be the case if we were to rationalize this ad infinitum — which is why we shouldn't. This award for activiy in creating new articles is fine as far as Barnstars go. Regards, Redux 19:21, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Redux, even if we do not create this Barnstar officially, the star will still be created and that ti will be awarded. Look at WP:PUA and how it filled up so quickly. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

True, but what I'm saying is that this one seems like a worthy prospect for a Barnstar (and I don't throw that around all too often). Do you disagree? Deryck too? It's not like this is my pet project or anything, if the majority decides that it shouldn't be created it'll be fine by me. Redux 19:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, I feel that this is a great barnstar (then again, I may be slightly biased...). But what covers this field? True, the original barnstar covers pretty much everything, but more specific ones were created to cover different areas, which is why I feel this barnstar is needed. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 00:12, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

My point exactly. Redux 00:22, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

When I thought about it some more, I came to think that maybe the only image posted as the possible image for this award would work nicely, because it's green. Green is a color commonly associated with "go ahead", "proceed", and creating a new award could be associated with "giving a green light" to a new idea, by introducing a new article on it. Since this discussion is starting to look stale, I'd like to suggest the following draft:

The Trailblazer Barnstar may be awarded to those who create quality new articles on Wikipedia, helping it expand its general coverage.

This award was introduced by Flcelloguy on September 1, 2005 and was designed by Sango123.

Anyone care to comment? Regards, Redux 20:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

People, I wouldn't like to insert a new award with this little discussion, but no one seems to want to participate...Even over the past weekend, no new comments. I feel that if we let this linger here, it will just be here forever... Please, if anyone cares, post your opinions over the next few days, or the award will be instated as drafted by me above. Thanks, Redux 03:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, since the discussion has died down and I realize now what the star is being used for, it sounds pretty good now. Support. Zach (Sound Off) 04:10, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Great. It's worth pointing out that we're still open to suggestions for the award's image. But the green star works fine. Regards, Redux 16:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

How about a zig-zag path being blazed in the middle of the green barnstar? Otherwise, it looks fine to me. :-) Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 22:55, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Could work...Normally, I'd ask of some of our "on-call designers" ;) to come up with the actual image, but since this forum has been half-deserted lately, I suppose it is not likely that we'll get to be able to choose from several images, like we used to — and to think that, at times, we had seven, eight different images to choose from in some discussions... Redux 01:22, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Seems the topic changed... Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I don't like the Barnstar at all. I know that Sango123 is on academic leave, but really, this Barnstar doesn't seem to fit. Right now, it's just a green barstar with a purpose of rewarding contributions of new articles. No offense to anyone, but I don't think it works right now. Is another "Call to Action" in order? Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 02:30, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, the star is really not very allusive to the topic. But it's all we've got. I resorted to an exercise in imagination to come up with the whole "green for go" explanation. In fact, since you mentioned it, I've actually been considering putting together a "call to action" myself. For one reason or another, this forum has (again) been deserted. Right now, only Zach, Deryck and myself have been posting regularly, and that's not nearly enough people involved. The part that's particularly hurt is the options for images. I can't come up with a decent drawing to save my life, and so we've found ourselves obliged to reach out to older drawings, such as this green star, in order to just have any option at all for a Barnstar image. Naturally, this is not going very well. Redux 23:41, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

i think we just leave this behind until Zscout370 comes back... Discussion held. Please don't archive this discussion. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, back now. Now that I am seeing that this might be a bad idea, we could archive it and re-visit it later. Zach (Sound Off) 04:29, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Ed Poor barnstar

I propose we use this as the Ed Poor barnstar for boldness, to award to those really bold editors. One problem though: the mouth isn't supposed to be tweaked to the left, what's a more predictable way to make the mouth? It's currently a sideways greater-than (>) symbol, in "Arial black". It looks fine on Inkscape, but it's tweaked to the left here. It looks like it rendered in a different font to me. --Phroziac ^(talk) 22:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

All fixed. Looks like it should now. :) I had to convert the text to paths. --Phroziac ^(talk) 23:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I made a 7 point variation of this barnstar also, to be bold, as someone suggested on IRC. --Phroziac ^(talk) 04:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there, maybe a Bold "B" serving as glasses/sunglasses? And maybe a nice shiny perfect tooth "D" grin? - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 04:08, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I like that idea too. I don't know how to make teeth in inkscape, I'm a newbie. I also moved the eyes down into the differently shaped sides of the B, to look kinda like the o.O smilie. And ignore the screwed up file name, heh. --Phroziac ^(talk) 04:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Two words come to mind, kick-ass! I'll give it heterosexual support, although the smile could be tweaked (lines to denote teeth and a rounder/larger smile closer to the center, although a smile actually going outside the outline of the star might look nifty). But that's artistic license... googling smile reference image. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 05:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not good enough to add teeth lines either, but I could try to figure it out. Making the smile bigger is no problem. --Phroziac ^(talk) 05:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Question, does Ed Poor know that you are doing this? Mainly, we just want to see if he wants his name attached to this award. Zach (Sound Off) 05:08, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I told him about it this afternoon, and he liked it alot. --Phroziac ^(talk) 05:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the current barnstars already covers the scope specified by this proposal. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I am going to wait on this one. Zach (Sound Off) 15:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I have nothing but the highest respect for Ed and his contributions, but I don't think it's a good idea to create a barnstar with his name on it espousing boldness when some of his bold activities have been disputed and argued against (including having an arbitration case filed against him). I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a good idea when so many people argued against some of his bold activities. --Deathphoenix 16:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Death on this one, I am going to have to say no to this Barnstar. Zach (Sound Off) 01:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Concur with Zscout and Deathphoenix, anything that has incurred a RfA and numerous Rfc's should not be used for a barnstar. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 02:18, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Concur. Should reject this thing. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 07:25, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, what if we just call it the bold barnstar? --Phroziac^(talk) 14:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Define "bold". There's no specification on the scope of this proposed Barnstar. Being bold is one of the "corollaries" of the Trifecta, which means that being bold is a desirable quality of what we would define as a good contributor — with no specific center: anyone can be good for a number of reasons: creating new articles, improving existing ones, participating in forums, etc. and one can be "bold" (and hence, "good") while doing pretty much any of it. This kind of general "goodness" is already covered by the Original Barnstar. I see no point in instating another Barnstar that is also that general; it would only make sense if the scope was somehow more specific, focused, than that of the more general Barnstars that we already have.
It seems that originally, it was meant for those who are bold "Ed Poor-style", but that won't do, for the reasons stated by Deathphoenix and with which everybody seems to agree. Regards, Redux 20:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Does boldness mean splashing your personal opinions all over wikipedia? If so, the caution is more to be admired. And in any case, this image does not have that 3d effect - it does not look like it might be nailed to a barn. Pmurray bigpond.com 00:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

The drawing is not of my concern right now, but I still believe with what happened to Ed after he did what he did (he deleted then WP:VFD some time ago) and trying to award Barnstars for it is not a very good idea. Zach (Sound Off) 00:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, i'll accept it as rejected then. It wasn't meant for ed poor style boldness, it was meant for boldness, and Ed Poor being mentioned because he's the boldest. Anyway, expect to see a better barnstar proposal from me in the near future. :) --Phroziac^(talk) 02:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Looking forward to it, and best of luck. :-) My first barnstar proposal (made, and rejected, when I was a newbie) was for a purple barnstar to be awarded to those who had their user pages vandalised. --Deathphoenix 05:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Heh. Sounds neat though. I'm not a newbie, but i *am* a newbie to this graphics program, and vector graphics in general. --Phroziac^(talk) 15:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

One little thing: Do you want it on WP:PUA? If yes, what name do you want it to be there (the word barnstar is prohibited) Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 10:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, lets use the name "Ed Poor award" or "Ed Poor star". --Phroziac^(talk) 15:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)