Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Archive12

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

Contents 1 Islamic Barnstar Award 1.1 The original image 1.2 More discussion 1.2.1 More comments on the votes 1.2.2 Comments on the votes 1.3 Religion barnstar? 1.4 Another Version (mosaic image) 1.5 Another Version (original image) 1.6 Other Versions 1.7 More Voting 1.8 Consensus Building 1.9 What do we do now? 1.9.1 Discussion on Three Main variations 1.9.1.1 RfC information 2 Poor behavior?

[edit] Islamic Barnstar Award

[edit] The original image

{{IslamicBarnstar}}

The Islamic Barnstar Award was created to recognize any editor who has made exceptional contributions to Islam-related articles. This award is part of the Islam WikiProject and its related guilds. Introduced and designed by JuanMuslim.

Note There was a previous discussion about this here. --evrik 15:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• • Other versions of the image are being debated in other sections below. --JuanMuslim ^1m 18:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral Each wikiproject should be allowed to determine its awards, however, per our standard operting porcedure, before it gets placed on the page, it should be discussed here. --evrik 15:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Mildly Oppose I think a better image should be found. --evrik 14:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Discussion is about the new image and not about the old image. Yes, the image in the previous discussion is pretty ugly. --JuanMuslim ^1m 19:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support. Discussion about the current image may be found here. --JuanMuslim ^1m 22:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support It is needed, and nice, and stuff. Zombiebaron 02:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support I believe it is necessary to have a special award for the project --Suleyman Habeeb 12:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Award or barnstar, though?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • As a wikiproject award. I think there has to be a better image. --evrik 22:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support. I prefer the image to the right if one of the two images are to be used. --Gray Porpoise 18:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support Qualified, I like the crescent and star. South Philly 02:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support as a WikiProject award. —SHININGEYES 03:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
• Mildly Support I don't like either image. I think a better image should be found. --evrik 14:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose this as a wikiproject award until there is more input on the design. I don't like either of these. --South Philly 00:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• huge support for both. They're both beautiful. Shannon^{duck talk} 05:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• If there is no consensus for either star, then I think the first image will end up getting listed a a WP:PUA/ --evrik 21:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
  • The discussion is in favor of keeping the current Islamic Barnstar Award. The original Islam Barnstar was voted down. This vote is clearly on the new version. Consensus says to keep the current Islamic Barnstar Award. The image has been here in the voting process for too long. The voting for the new image has been here since June 6. --JuanMuslim ^1m 19:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
    • AgreedIf anyone has an objection, they may do so by sending in a new proposal to either change or delist the image as a barnstar. Consensus on Image #1 is NO and consensus on Image #2 is KEEP, as shown here, on the condition that the issue of this barnstar is not based on the user's own religion, but on the user's contributions. I will be placing this in archive, and posting the barnstar.--Ed 20:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
      • This is still an ongoing discussion. No aspect of discussion on the Islamic Barnstar Award has been archived. --JuanMuslim ^1m 15:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Striver 14:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. AStanhope 02:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Yung Wei 03:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Wikipidian 16:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• I'm a pretty bad artist, but I was thinking that possibly something like a regular old barnstar with the word Allah in the middle like the pendant some people wear. Not this image per se, but it kinda gets the idea. Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • You may offer your opinions about this idea in the section below regarding 'other versions'. --JuanMuslim ^1m 18:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral I don't really support either one. I think a newer one should be created.--Ahmed 18:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Right, you want a better one that doesn't exist, but that means someone has to create it, are you going to create a new one and share for the rest of us to decide? If not, then you should choose from these available options, sorry for being (overly?) critical. User:Waqas.usman

(Talk) 09:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • I still stick to my decision. Neutral. I'll even say it again. Neutral. That's what I said, and that's the only thing that should be important. If you disagree with anything I say afterwards then it's your problem (since you're the only one that complained anyway).--Ahmed 11:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support The bronze star over the mosque looks fine to me. Dennette 18:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support This version looks better than any of the other versions being discussed here. User:Waqas.usman (Talk) 09:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support TruthSpreader^Talk 04:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More discussion

This message was added after archival: Sorry, I messed that one up. Image1 was approved and Image2 was voted off. The proper changes have been made by JuanMuslim.--Ed 20:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

• I added this back to the proposal page because I think it was prematurely, maybe forced off the propoasl page by Ed. I believe that the wikiproject has the right to have an award, but I don't like either design. There was consensus on an award, but I think that there was no consensus on the image, and that the proposal was languishing. The agreement of JuanMuslim and 'Ed does not make a consensus. --evrik 16:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: In addition, this barnstar has been given numerous times, showing major support for this barnstar.--Ed 16:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The proposal was already approved. The only people to object the project's image was Evrik, Gray Porpoise, and South Philly. I say return this discussion to the archives, due to the fact that this proposal was returned based on biased opinion.--Ed 16:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    • It was not really approved, it just languished from lack of consensus, or support. --evrik 17:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
      • It was clearly approved. There is a clear consensus. And, it is clearly time to accept the consensus. --JuanMuslim ^1m 19:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
        • A major problem with the current process for selecting Barnstar and awards, especially for WikiProject Awards, is that it is very inconsistent and though it may be called a process follows no real process or procedure. This lack of clarity causes much confusion.--JuanMuslim ^1m 14:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
        • I agree - there is a clear process problem here. Someone proposes some pictures - lots of people vote - someone adds more pictures - people get confused about whether they can change their vote - we get close to consensus - then more pictures get added. Or alternatively, some photos are added - nobody knows whether more are coming soon - so they hold back on stating their preference saying "I think we need something different/better" - so again, no consensus. This sucks. There needs to be a cutoff date for provision and debate about pictures. The debate may spark people to add more pictures - but only up to the cutoff data. After that date - no more pictures - either we have an obvious consensus or we vote. Later, if someone wants to change the picture for a better one, we start the process again - new pictures, more discussion, a cutoff date - then another vote. Additionally, there is a problem with several very similar pictures being posted with minor variations. This tends to split the vote. If there is Image A which 10 people like and image B that 20 people like - but which comes in three very similar varients - then each varient gets 6 or 7 votes and image A wins even though 2 out of 3 people hated it. Consensus decision making is better - but it's even harder than voting when many very similar pictures are offered. Hence, I think it would be fairer to allow the artist to propose a group of similar photos under one number. Let people vote for that number (or not) and if that is picked then there can be further debate about which of the variations of that is preferred. We have at least three or four proposals where there are plenty of great images - but no decision is being made. SteveBaker 17:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
• I agree, process here is a problem, but no one want to work on making the process better. --evrik 19:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Everyone who votes here assumes it's like voting for articles, you know, vote support or oppose and move on. Maybe first clearly state that the initial vote is only for approving a proposal then later a vote will be for selecting an image. Even that causes problems. I mean some people voted four or five times. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More comments on the votes

People who voted who supported the mosque image

• Striver 14:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• User:JuanMuslim
• Ed

People who voted who supported the award concept (but not the image)

• User:Zombiebaron
• User:Suleyman Habeeb
• User:Piotrus
• User:ShiningEyes

Sock puppet voters

• Shannon

People who didn't like the mosque image

• evrik
• User:South Philly
• User:Gray Porpoise

--There wasn't really consensus. --evrik 17:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, what's your problem!!! You're the only one who objected to this in the first place. Besides, this barnstar has been out for a week, and already awarded to numerous users. Changing the image will change all of the given awards, unless everyone used (subst), which is going to cause major problems. And there was consensus, because no one, except for you, and South Philly (Gray Porpoise still supported the idea) opposed the image. --Ed 17:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

• Yo, Ed, take a deep breath - this isn't personal. As you said, in your last sentence - I'm not the only one who objected. If you toss out the sockpuppet voter, and those people who were supportive of the award, but not the design, there was no consensus.

The award was posted on August 2, on August 3, I moved it to the PUA page. You happened to make the move while I was travelling, otherwise I would have commnetd on 8/2. I support the award, but not the image. In July, I recommended it get approved as a PUA because of the lack of support and the lack of consensus. If you want to see an idea with real support, look at the TV. award. The Islamic Award was given out before it was even posted to this page. People can do that if they want to. I think if we are going to list it here, we should hold out for a better image. --evrik 18:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I moved my name. It had been put on the wrong list, as I supported the star and crescent image, not the mosque. --Gray Porpoise 23:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on the votes

The original Islamic Barnstar was introduced and designed by Irishpunktom. That version was clearly rejected. The new version {{IslamicBarnstar}} was introduced and designed by me. Acceptance for the idea - the Islamic Barnstar Award - as well as the current design has been accepted. --JuanMuslim ^1m 04:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

People who voted who supported the mosque image

• User:JuanMuslim
• Ed
• User:Zombiebaron
• User:Suleyman Habeeb
• User:Piotrus
• User:ShiningEyes
• Striver
• AStanhope
• Yung Wei
• Wikipidian
• Dennette
• Waqas.usman
• TruthSpreader

[edit] Religion barnstar?

• It's just struck me that perhaps a barnstar just for Islam is a bit narrow. How about a barnstar which encompasses all religions and faith systems. It will also prevent the glut of "How come Islam gets a barnstar and such-and-suchism doesn't?" copycat barnstars on creation, and sidesteps the mosque/crescent issue. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 09:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• ehhh, religion is already covered under general barnstars. I think the more specific ones should be generated as there is interest. --evrik 12:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, there's already a consensus for the Islamic Barnstar Award. Some editors disagree about the image to use. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • The Islamic Barnstar is exceptionally well designed and visually pleasing. I'd hate to see it changed... If anyone is concerned about the lack of Christian, Judaic, Hindu, etc. barnstars then an incentive exists for someone to create one! There are clearly people here with a great deal of graphic design talent. The wa to solve this problem is to add more - not dilute the existing one. --AStanhope 02:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• There is already one used for Christianity-rleated articles. --evrik 18:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Per JuanMuslim above --- Already consensus for an Islamic Barnstar, don't think that's even at issue. BYT 09:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• There are always the Template:The Society Barnstar for Category:Society and Template:The Barnstar of High Culture for Category:Culture. --evrik 18:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Version (mosaic image)

• I support Image:IslamicBarnstar.png, though the star should be colored green which should be a simple task which I could do if anyone wants me to. --WillMak050389 16:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • My single biggest problem with the image is the relationship of the star and the mosque. I think it should be more star and less mosque, or that they should somehow be integrated. --evrik 16:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh, that's true. I'm willing to help, but unsure how to incorporate the two. --WillMak050389 16:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Could you try creating some sort of green mosaic star? --evrik 20:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I think you already created something like what you were talking about. Found below. I don't really care for that sort of image at all. --JuanMuslim ^1m 16:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
• I would welcome a new design --evrik 17:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The mosque is the width of the image. Looks prettier that way. The star already takes up most of the space of the image. --JuanMuslim ^1m 19:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • These discussions about awards usually have two components - first, is the award appropriate and second, is the desisgn acceptable. Most of the other Barnstars and WikiProject Awards are designed differently. The star has something integrated into it that makes it unique. I don't think the mosque is clear enough a symbol of Islam.

Mosaic images

• • • Islamic_symbols
    • Five-pointed_star
    • Star and crescent
    • Image:Kaftar.jpg
    • http://members.tripod.com/vismath4/kaplan/node2.html
    • http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/projects/starpatterns
    • http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/washington/taprats
    • http://www.topics.org.uk/5patterns_taprats.htm
    • http://www.art.unt.edu/ntieva/news/vol_14/no_1/Star1.htm

my rough attempt

A tile pattern

Cleaned up version of first image

I think a green star with an Islamic mosaic patter would be better, ala Image:Kaftar.jpg In any case, I think that the star should be, at least, changed to green. --evrik 20:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

• The problem with the star and crescent as an Islamic symbol is that its highly controversial among Muslims although it may not seem to be to non-Muslims. That's why a mosque is used for the Islam template. I have no idea what shade of green you would like the star to be. Is there an image with that particular green you could direct me to? Also, your idea of the mosaic is too different from my image that has been already awarded for Islamic-related articles. --JuanMuslim ^1m 20:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
• That last comment is easily fixed. If we get an award that we can agree upon here, then we simply upload the new one under the old name. Maybe I should have been more explicit about this before, but I was hoping that someone would step forward and design a new star.--evrik 20:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
• Juan commented above that he didn't like my design. I'm okay with that. I made it to illustrate something I thought was more in line with the rest of the awards. Someone else want to take a crack at it? --evrik 16:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • When I look at Wikipedia:Wikiproject_awards, I see that the image for the Islamic Barnstar Award that I created would fit perfectly. Some of the images listed have stars that don't look like stars, and at least one award doesn't even have a star. --JuanMuslim ^1m 21:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
• Okay, you bring up a good point about the award that isn't star-like. That was a mistake I made. Mea culpa. I made a fix and have explained that fix here. In its current state, it's fine as a PUA. I'd like to contrast this award with the amount of time and input that went into the TV award. This award has had a fraction of the input or support. I don't think you have to like my suggestion, but is there any other design you're happy with? --evrik 22:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I am happy with the design I originally submitted. If you look at the archives, most awards have received little thought before they were accepted. My image for award, on the other hand, has received much support as shown in a number of ways. Most of the discussion on this page has been you. You're the only one holding up acceptance of the image. --JuanMuslim ^1m 04:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• That's because I think the star and mosque should be better integrated, or a new image should be developed. --evrik 21:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• I don't like the mosque. It should be more star-like. --South Philly 01:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
• I don't think the mosque is the best choice, either. I commend evrik for creating the mosaic pattern, and that's my main choice if the star-and-crescent is too controversial. --Gray Porpoise 13:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I have added a new version of tiling image, it is somewhat cleaned up, but it could use more cleanup. --WillMak050389 19:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
• I could live with that. Feel free to play with the tile color scheme. --evrik 20:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
• I like both of them.Rlevse 10:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• What would be more subtle and interesting would be to use just the mosaic background - and instead of sticking a honking great green barnstar on the top, to subtly change the little five pointed stars in the mosaic itself into barnstars...just using bumpmapping or something. SteveBaker 15:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

More Mosaic images

my rough attempt

Another rough cut. --evrik 21:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Most people would be confused to see a barnstar with a mosaic background that is called the Islamic Barnstar Award. They wouldn't get what you mean. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • People would understand its an Islamic Barnstar Award if the award was a mosaic background with Arabic text stating something Islamic. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • That's an idea. --evrik 18:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
      • The problem with that though is that many non-Muslims have received the award.--JuanMuslim ^1m 19:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Version (original image)

Another version 1

• I have updated another version of the award. The star is green and bigger as suggested. Let me know what you think. --JuanMuslim ^1m 02:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• I'm going to see if I can't generate some more comments. --evrik 02:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I will also see if I can't generate some more comments as well. --JuanMuslim ^1m 02:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I still don't like the mosque and the its relationship to the star. --evrik 13:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• The colour is fine, but the star looks a little... slanted. Of course you applied a colour filtering, but did you increase the width more than the height? I think they should be increased proportionally. --Deathphoenix ʕ 03:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• Yes. Otherwise, the star would be smaller. --JuanMuslim ^1m 13:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• This is my favorite of the ideas I've seen so far, but the star really should be enlarged proportionally. It should make a good WikiProject award. --Merovingian - Talk 17:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Probably fix the star and it will look good in my eyes. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Another version 2

• How's this for a fix? smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 09:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• I think its fine. I still prefer the original image I created. --JuanMuslim ^1m 02:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• Same problem as before. I really don't see why the mosque has to be a feature in the picture at all. --evrik 02:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • A lone green star would be too similar to The Oddball Barnstar. Also, a star sans crescent has never to my knowledge been a symbol of Islam. Wikipidian 16:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Just because you don't like the image does not mean that it's not the most supported version. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• I like JuanMuslim's most recent effort very much, and would like to see that used. If consensus is for this image, however, I would be happy with this one as well. BYT 09:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• The existing image is fine. it's clean and consistent with the wikipedia aesthetic. to change it to any of the proposed ones would make it graphically inconsistent. i dont like any of them, to be honest. the current one i think is best designed. and as for a religion star, fine, but the islamic one serves a purpose. its not narrow. it relates to a fifth of the worlds population. sorry if this comment is in the wrong place. Yung Wei 03:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I support the existing image as well. For me the mosque is much more a symbol of Islam than a (wierd green-coloured) star and prefer it smaller as in the original image. Wikipidian 16:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Please vote in the first section above if you support or don't support the current version of the image. Also, be sure to state that you support or don't support the current image, because apparently Evrik thinks that only stating 'support' means you support the idea of an Islamic Barnstar Award. --JuanMuslim ^1m 16:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I believe there must be a mosque in the award, the last style with a mosque and a green star looks ideal for the Islamic Barnstar IMO. I really do not understand how can there be THIS much discussion on such a trivial matter as this. Systemic bias, unbelievably narrow-minded users and fanatics made me leave all the stuff I wanted to do with Islam-related stuff on Wikipedia. Mosque, no mosque what does it matter? The color green or abstract figures or a crescent these will NEVER be a symbol of Islam as a cross is for Christianity. I believe this barnstar thing should end with this last type JuanMuslim proposed. --Suleyman Habeeb 17:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
    • But I don't like the version I 'proposed' with the ugly green star, but you know me. I'm always up for compromising somewhat. I support the original version I created as the best. --JuanMuslim ^1m 17:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• I don't think the mosque image is in line with the rest of the awards. It's almost like saying a chapel is the sign for Christianity. I think this is a poor image to represent all of Islam. --evrik 18:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • You're seeing things through your own worldview. For Muslims, the mosque is considered the center of Islamic life. --JuanMuslim ^1m 18:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• I like it. The mosque image is used in the infobox for the Islam series of articles, so it's a recognisable Islam-Wikipedia symbol, and ultimately, the Islam Wikiproject barnstar is awarded to people who contribute to Islam articles. From what I see above, the mosque and green star seems to be liked by those who are interested in Islam articles. I'm not a Muslim, nor do I edit Islam articles with any regularity, but I'm just basing my opinion on how "pretty" I think the image is and whether it is liked by Muslims or those who are interested in editing Islam articles. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Another version 3

• 

I've just uploaded another version of the original image. This version has a green star and the star is bigger as some of you requested. Also, the dimensions of the star are not changed at all. However, with this version, I am able to maintain the pretty-looking shadow on the star that is found on the original version. And, even so, I still support the original image I created. --JuanMuslim ^1m 19:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• • This is good too. Probably the best of the lot. The original image, IMO, didn't look right. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
• I am actually quite pleased with the already exsisting Islamic Barnstar, although maybe we could incorporate some other symbol, such as a crescent or Allah's name. User:Ali 786 00:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Versions

IBS.PNG

IBAllah.PNG

Other versions of the image for the award may be added and debated here. I am moving other versions of the barnstar image to this section so that people can discuss these versions without confusing debate on other versions.--JuanMuslim ^1m 18:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

IBS.PNG

Note There was a previous discussion about this image here. --JuanMuslim ^1m 18:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Put me in favor of Image:IBS.PNG - incorporates the star and crescent. - Tεxτurε 17:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

IBAllah.PNG

This version of the image was suggested recently by Smmurphy in another section. --JuanMuslim ^1m 18:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Image:IBAllah.PNG is my favorite so far. --evrik 16:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
• Definitely like the new version the best. --WillMak050389 16:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Voting

Image 1	Image 2	Image 3	Image 4
Image 5	Image 6	Image 7	Image 8
Image 9	Image 10	Image 11	Image 12
Image 13	Image 14	Image 15	Image 16
Image 17	Image 18	Image 19	Image 20
Image 21	Image 22

Ok, this is getting out of hand. I'll put all of the images here, then we'll vote on them. Picture with the most votes gets to go up as the award. I know some of the pics are just drafts, but I'll put them up anyway. --Ed^{talk c E} 00:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support: Image 8--Ed^{talk c E} 00:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• Image 11 is my favorite, but is there a reason for the black background? should it be transparacied? Love the color contrast. --WillMak050389 02:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment this is not supposed to be about voting, but about consensus. --evrik 03:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • And, what exactly is your definition of consensus? --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Consensus can be reached by majority vote. If one guy disagrees, but all of the other 10 people agree on an award, are we going to compromise to that 1 guy's issues?--Ed^{talk c E} 13:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Sorry, Ed, simple voting does not mean consensus. A bad image is still a bad image, no matter how much the proposer wants it. Juan Muslim has been so fixed on his single idea he never really thought of anything else, and that's been the bulk of the problem. --evrik 23:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
      • The bulk of the problem has been your refusal to acknowledge that most people support the current Islamic Barnstar Award. --JuanMuslim ^1m 16:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. The idea behind "working towards consensus" (as opposed to straight voting) is that if 9 people agree and one does not, you ask the dissenter why he/she dislikes the choice so much and you see if there is any small change you can make that will make everyone happy. You can't always achieve 100% consensus - but you can at least try. If having tried and failed you still have a large majority in favor - you'd hope that the person who is outvoted 9:1 would be gracious enough to give up and allow a consensus to be formed. But if you have tried your best and you just can't get everyong together - then "be bold" and just get on with it. But in the majority of cases, Wikipedians try not to allow the majority to simply out-vote the minority and to trample them underfoot (especially if the margin is a slim one). So "work towards consensus" - but if it's just not possible then go with the flow. SteveBaker 01:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Yes, that is true. Current discussion leads us to acknowledge that the current image has consensus as of now. Working towards consensus does not imply that the best of whatever is yet to be discovered. --JuanMuslim ^1m 02:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
            • Right - waiting for some magical source of wonderous images that would satisfy everyone is not a viable approach. How long you wait for someone to come up with a better image is a tricky decision in an environment where we don't know who has the skills, who is actively working on painting images, etc. Frankly, that too is a part of reaching consensus - when have we waited long enough? That somewhat depends on how good your present solutions are - if we are choosing between great images and the decision is "Which of these great images is the best?" then you don't have to wait all that long. If all you have is a set of mediocre images and you are trying to choose the least nasty of them - then you should wait longer in the hope that something better comes along. The annoying thing is what just happened. Lots of people vote - then someone adds more images (which look great by the way!) - and we have to start voting all over again. Cutting off that debate when more and more good images pour in gets tricky - and the more images there are the more disagreement there can be about which is the best. SteveBaker 13:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
              • No award is selected without the consensus of the most active Wikipedians on the Barnstar Proposals page. Recently, this list has been evrik, Gray Porpoise, WillMak050389, South Philly, and Leroyencyclopediabrown. Most people assume that their original vote is sufficient then move on to other activities.--JuanMuslim ^1m 17:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
                • Sorry dude, I won't be around as much as I used to. I have a full explanation on my userpage.--Ed^{talk c E} 01:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - If this is going to be a Wikiproject award, I don't see a need for its discussion here --> unless someone has decided to make the process of a wikiproject award very bureaucratic ;) --Gurubrahma 06:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment There ought to be a star image with a mosaic background and the colouring/shade of Image 8. --Gray Porpoise 18:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Support Image 10. I like Gray Porpoises suggestion. --evrik 23:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Image 10 (mostly because it seems like it's time to resolve this now). I would also be quite happy with Image 8. Very grateful to JuanMuslim for all the work and attention on this. BYT 23:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Image 11. Beautiful. SteveBaker 13:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support Image 10 or 12 --Húsönd 16:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support Image 10 or 12, with stronger leanings towards 12 (brighter background over 11 is fantastic, and more colorful over 10). --How's my editing so far? Call 1-800-2GOOD4U! 09:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
• I like #16. --evrik 04:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support image 8,9,10 and 13 looks really nice.. I like all of them, 13 is a better bet. and anyone wanting advice on consensus I can help. consensus is not simple majority thats the basics.. -- «₪Mÿš†íc₪»  ^(T) 07:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support 1, 9, 10. Especially 1.--Absar 10:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support Image 14 and 15 .. they look really nice and show the nice side of islamic art --Chaos 14:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support #11, though I think #10 and #16 are okay. --evrik 14:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• General Support for 1, 8, 9, 10, and 14. Perhaps I missed it, but the reason for green (as opposed to traditional copper) is what? I'm also not a fan of any of the tile work, but 14 looks like it could be useful as a non-barnstar award. Finally, can you add the shadows to the crescent barnstar? (and great work! Please award yourself whichever Barnstar gains concensus, from me : ) - Jc37 15:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Wow, that was fast work : )

Can you do one that maintains the same sizes as #9? (I liked the smaller barnstar in ratio to the crescent). Also, can you add the shadows, while maintaining a white back ground? Great work : ) - Jc37 14:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The background of the image is transparent. If the background of the page is white then the background of the image will be white. --JuanMuslim ^1m 15:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Image 9 is my fav. Herostratus 04:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• Image 10by far if I had to choose one --SeanMcG 05:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
• Image 10, we don't need any backgrounds to the award, just look at the awards page. Michaelas10 19:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
• Juan, are you going to be okay with image 10? --evrik 19:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • No. --JuanMuslim ^1m 22:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
  • C'est la vie. --evrik 22:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
    • This section called Final Vote has been here since August 25. Evrik, I suppose it's ok that it would take from June 6 until after August 2 for you to announce that the idea for the Islamic Barnstar Award is acceptable. All the while most people who expressed support for the it on this page believed they were actually voting for the original image for the Islamic Barnstar Award. And, now you don't even consider everyone who has expressed support for it. --JuanMuslim ^1m 22:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
• I've never said that the idea of the award wasn't accepatble. I've never liked the original image. --evrik 14:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • • • Juan, image 10 is clearly the winner. accept the image and move on! (its well made!) --SeanMcG 02:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Everyone who votes here assumes it's like voting for articles, you know, vote support or oppose and move on. Maybe first clearly state that the initial vote is only for approving a proposal then later a vote will be for selecting an image. Even that causes problems. I mean some people voted four or five times. And, people don't think they have to vote at least twice in order for their vote to count. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
          • I don't think votes "count" in a consensus. Voting is to see where we are at. It looks like people are interested in Images 1, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, and maybe 17-20, and especially 1, 8, 9 (and 20?), and 10. Now, people who are interested in creating consensus should talk about why they like certain images (and saying "because its beautiful" doesn't help much). If someone just wants to vote and leave, that is fine and should be taken into account, but it isn't helping achieve consensus, its just a show of general support for the ideas presented in a certain image. Ultimately the discussion should lead to one, two, or maybe three images sticking out. If no one image can be picked out of those/derived from a discussion about those, then a vote may help convince suporters of certain images that there concerns aren't widely shared. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
• I like gold or brown for the barnstar rather than green, as green looks like the oddball barnstar, which bugs me. I do like green for a crescent if there is to be one. I like image 10, because the mosque and the star and crescent are not purely Muslim creations, and are influenced by history, geography, climate, etc. This isn't too big of a deal, but let me explain my thinking. The essence of religion isn't the symbols, but the tenents of faith, monotheism being the key tenent here. So to me, the WikiPedia symbol for one who works hard on Islam related articles should show that their work glorifies One God, not that it glorifies a mosque, a crescent, or Arabic. The least of these three impediments to our understanding of Islam through symbols is probably our reliance on Arabic (and many wouldn't agree that this is a problem, anyway). So having the Islamic symbol represented be the Arabic word for God makes sense to me as recognizable, in the spirit of Islam and barnstars, beautiful, and simple. But as with many others, I'm just happy to see the community of WikiPedians so strong that there is an Islamic Award. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus Building

Image 10 - 9 votes	Image 9 - 4 votes	Image 8 - 4 votes	Image 11 - 3 votes
Image 12 - 2 votes	Image 1 - 2 votes	Image 13 - 2 votes	Image 14 - 2 votes
Image 15 - 1 vote	Image 16 - 1 vote

I've culled down the group and ranked the images (from the final voting). --evrik 14:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Your vote calculation is inaccurate because it does not include people who have expressed their opinion throughout the course of the discussion.--JuanMuslim ^1m 15:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
• I have created a template for the award: Template:Islamic WikiProject award. Before I proceed to add the award on the WikiProject awards page, I would like a final premission. Also, for some reason, when I changed the award background to match the template, the background stayed the same. Michaelas10 17:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
• It's okay with me. Juan? --evrik 17:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • No. I am curious to know who voted for what. And, the voting and discussion is being cut off prematurely.--JuanMuslim ^1m 03:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I believe he meant to posting the award. Michaelas10 13:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• I recounted the votes, and adjusted the above, as per Juan's concerns that everyone's concensus opinion be counted. Also, a vote from me for 19 and 20, since he took the time to add shading as I asked : ) - jc37 21:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
• One last thing, please change the color of the star to dark green because otherwise it would seem like an attempt to copy the runner's barnstar. Michaelas10 13:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• Did you all read this ? Voting is evil, And some comments on consensus.. If the subject is controversial, it is adiviced to get at least 70% of the editors consent. And sometimes with "Certain" bigotted editors it is almost impossible to achieve, especially in an Islam related article or template.-- «₪Mÿš†íc₪»  ^(T) 17:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I was just thinking about how much a pain it was just to keep the original image (Image 1) from getting deleted in May.--JuanMuslim ^1m 19:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
• The original image just doesn't do it for me. I don't think it's in keeping with the most of the rest of the stars. I could live with almost any other image as long as it didn't have the non-distinct blob that is supposed to look like a mosque on the bottom. --evrik 04:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• That 'blob' as you call it was selected by many delicated Wikipedians for the Islam template.--JuanMuslim ^1m 16:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
• The community (i.e. JuanMuslim] selected the image. The image got nominated for deletion almost right away because of its quality. --evrik 14:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The issue wasn't about image quality, but I bet you wish it was.--JuanMuslim ^1m 01:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What do we do now?

There seem to essentially be 3 main variations proposed:

1. Barnstar over mosque
2. Barnstar Crescent
3. "The Name of God" barnstar

Perhaps we should be discussing which of the 3 variations is preferred, before we start deciding over specifics, such as colour or tile background. - jc37 14:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe we should select or edit from among the top three images from the three variations. I've included some of the images in the following list I created most recently but were never voted on. --JuanMuslim ^1m 17:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Barnstar over mosque

Image 1, Image 8, Image 13

2. Barnstar Crescent

Image 9, Image 20, Image 18

3. "The Name of God" barnstar

Image 10, Image 11, Image 22

[edit] Discussion on Three Main variations

• Comment - While I like both of the first 2 variation types (building and crescent), I was thinking about whether someone might consider "the name of God" surrounded/encompassed by a barnstar, to be a "bad idea", to say the least. Receipt of a Barnstar! should be a happy occasion, rather than the start of a fight : ) I think we should nullify all the examples above that have variations of the barnstar with "the name of God" in it (10,11,12,15,16,21,22). Some version of 14 (which, as far as I can tell, has no barnstar) could be discussed as an "award", rather than a "barnstar". - jc37 14:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Are you saying that a "Name of God" barnstar might be offensive to any atheist who might recieve it? I guess thats a possibility I didn't think of. If that is the case, then it probably isn't a good idea. However, I'm not sure that any Islam barnstar would be neutral in that sense. Could you explain what you mean. Smmurphy^(Talk) 15:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It could be interpreted by some as a violation of one of the Ten commandments. From that article: "(7) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name." Personally, I am not presuming to say whether this does or doesn't violate that statement, but if there's a chance someone else may interpret it as such, then we shouldn't use it. - jc37 15:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Instead of the word 'God' there should be the word 'Islam' on the star, it would not be offensive. Michaelas10 15:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• • This is one of the main reasons I'm pushing to keep the original barnstar that I suggested. Look for the discussion on the talk page archives for the Islam template about why the mosque image was selected for the Islam template. --JuanMuslim ^1m 19:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Heh, looking at all those numerous discussions is a bit funny. Obviously this is a big deal. Aparently some aren't satisfied with the results of those previous discussions. It seems that the sense of offense that people are afraid of in using the Shahada[1] or the Name of God is that it will somehow be like an idol, or that a non-Muslim will not want such a thing. Interestingly the solution seems to be to use a symbol that, although associated with Islam, is muddled in history to the degree that it is almost impossible to pin down its exact meaning. The mosque and the star and crescent are adopted symbols, like Moses they floated down the great river and proved to be a sort of divisive bane for their finders. It is clear that this isn't the last we will see of this question as to what is the symbol for Islam. I suggested a symbol for me, something like that which the one I love wears around her neck. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Anyway, after looking at WP:Islam, I've decided to change my vote and put my full support behind the mosque image, as the current wikipedia symbol for Islam. If that symbol is to change in the future, and I wouldn't mind such a change, that change will have to affect many templates, and should probably be discussed at the project or perhaps guild level. However as I'm not active in there, and since the mosque symbol is used everywhere else, I prefer it for this award as well. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of another idea. What do you think of a barnstar that's a different color than yellow but instead of 'Allah' it says 'Islam'? --JuanMuslim ^1m 10:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like: a.) Barnstar over mosque - The mosque image is standard throughout the WikiProject. b.) Barnstar Crescent - The crescent image has been voted down already by the WikiProject community c.) "name of God" barnstar - concerns (initiated by me) about using the "name of God" within a barnstar.

Since this is primarily for the Wikiproject community, we should probably give deference to their opinion.

Let's start with this:

• Does anyone oppose the idea of discussing the details of image #1 for use as a barnstar? (Details = colours, backgrounds, sizes, shapes, patterns, shading, etc)
• Does anyone oppose discussing the details of image 14 (with no barnstar image in it) for use as an "award"?

What do you think? - jc37 21:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think that too few people supported image 14 and the various versions of image 14 to even consider image 14 as a possibility. As for image #1, I think that the original Islamic Barnstar Award has achieved consensus. Therefore, I feel uncomfortable with other versions of image 1 unless another version of image 1, or any other image for that matter, achieves consensus. --JuanMuslim ^1m 05:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• I think that most of the other awards, this is not a barnstar focus on the star image. The mosque at the bottom is not in keeping with the most of the rest of the images. --evrik 14:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I really disagree. The Africa Award, Polish Barnstar of National Merit, and the Cancon Award are all listed as barnstars but do not focus on the barnstar image more than the image with the mosque. See the national variations at wikicommons and Barnstar of National Merit. Smmurphy^(Talk) 20:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• A quick look at the WikiProject awards page shows they don't conform to Evrik's standards. Also, what's amazing is that Evrik had no problem supporting the Philadelphia Award image and award, which in many regards is similar in style to the image of the original Islamic Barnstar Award. --JuanMuslim ^1m 04:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Barnstar Award

Philadelphia Award

• You can check the record to see that i have made comments about most of the WikiProject awards that have gone up, and some that have gone up, I didn't agree with (like the Archeology one). A few of the awards that are listed up there predate the current award groupings that we have, they got placed up there long after they had been created (like the Star of Sophia).

I don't have a problem with any WikiProject having an award, but in I have never liked the star and mosque image - the only one that JuanMuslim is happy with. -- evrik 01:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've worked very hard throughout the course of the discussion. I updated image 10 to get rid of the black background then created a couple of other versions using image 10 but with different backgrounds. I also made alterative versions of image 1 as requested. I also created images 14 through 16 based on your earlier suggestion. I also made four alternative versions of image 9 based on a suggestion. The latest images I created were not voted on because someone thought it would be clever to end the voting process. So don't tell me I'm not open to suggestions. I'm still not convinced that any of the other images have received more support than the original Islamic Barnstar Award.--JuanMuslim ^1m 04:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I suggest that we close the debate, archive this discussion, and acknowledge that the original Islamic Barnstar Award has been selected by consensus as the award for the Islam Wikipedia project and its related guilds. --JuanMuslim ^1m 18:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think after your actions, and in being so cruel. You should abstain from any further discussion. --63.164.145.85 19:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, no. First, I don't think there has been much of a discussion. As I scroll up, it's been pretty much a series of suggestions, many of which were made into examples. The "voting" is inconclusive, especially since (as far as I see) we haven't determined by concensus the question of whether variations #2 and #3 are appropriate. If #2 and #3 are "disqualified", then we need to decide if there is a concensus to discuss #1, or perhaps something else to be designed, or even to forget the whole thing. Further, the less than helpful debate between Juan and Evrik (I don't care at the moment which was right or wrong) has given a stigma to the whole process. If anyone wants this discussion to go forward, I suggest this:

1. Determine the award types (I presume the 3 variations, plus example 14).
2. Have some "third party" put those up for RfC
3. Ask all to include suggestions for "details" (such as color, sizing, background, transparancy, etc.).
4. Both Juan and Evrik (including any socks) stay out of that stage of the discussion, to remove any possibility of confusion. (A barnstar should be a happy thing, not something which causes arguement.)
5. When the RfC is completed, creating a new page for discussion to finalize details about whatever the RfC decided.
6. Implement the result(s)

If there is a concensus that this is not doable, then I think that this discussion is dead; archive it, and put a "rejected" tag at the top.

- jc37 15:05, 16 September[[ 2006 (UTC)

• The suggestions, feedback, etc has been part of the overall discussion. The current discussion is about selecting an image not about whether or not to have such an award. No one is arguing about that. --JuanMuslim ^1m 16:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• No, actually the "current" discussion is whether we can get past all the negativity, and move forward with "something". Right now, this is "dead in the water". I would like to see it move past that stage. So seeting aside all of the tagents, and diversion, and obfuscation, and personal attacks, does anyone support or oppose the suggested steps above? - jc37

• I was referring to the current discussion about the actual image, because discussion about whether or not to have an Islamic Barnstar Award has already been resolved. I'm strongly opposed to the details of your RfC idea. --JuanMuslim ^1m 05:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• How much discussion does there need to be? This is how much discussion went into the Saint's Star Award, which is regarded as the Christian Wikiproject Award. Three people voted, and one was a vote of opposition. --JuanMuslim ^1m 05:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• Well, at the moment, right now, the only ones still "discussing", are you and me. As I said, as this stands now, it's "dead in the water". (There is no concensus for any award that is not potentially inflammatory in one way or other.) The RfC was so that others can be invited to join in the discussion. (note:I was/am the potential for the "third opinion" you had available, as noted in the quote from RfC below.) I realize you don't like the idea of sitting out that stage of the discussion, but I only suggest it to give others a chance to comment. (For one thing, I've noted that you seem to do a lot of re-editing of the wording of your posts, as well as others. This could be distracting in a discussion.) But since you are "strongly opposed", I withdraw the offer. I'm marking this page historical. If this page becomes active with more than just you Juan, I will be more than happy to see the tag removed and rejoin in the discussion. Right now, in my opinion, this page shows many examples of what not to do in a discussion. Anyway, you have several other award cantidates to discuss, I wish you well. - jc37 20:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC information

• This is what the page says regarding RfC...--JuanMuslim ^1m 04:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  

Before adding an entry here:

Do not post an RfC before working towards a resolution with other article contributors first. Whatever the disagreement, the first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to the other parties involved. Be civil, and assume good faith in other editors' actions.

Consider getting a third opinion on a controversy that involves only two editors.

If you want general help in improving an article, such as to Featured status, then list it at Peer review. Note that peer review is not for content disputes.

Consider consulting the relevant WikiProject, especially for expert subjects like at WikiProject Mathematics. For disputes over implementing Wikipedia policy, consider consulting the relevant policy, guideline, or style page.

[edit] Poor behavior?

JuanMuslim has now resorted to making Ad hominem attacks. I think this is both a violation of WP:AGF or WP:Civil I will not engage in the debate any more about the Islam Award. This of course means that Juan will finally probably get what he wants - through name calling and incivility. -- evrik 01:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This was moved from Evrik's talk page. He's a bit angry because I made the following posts regarding his candidacy to join the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Throughout the discussion about the Islamic Barnstar Award, I have presented important reasons for maintaining the current Islamic Barnstar Award. I have also repeatedly emphasized that the current Islamic Barnstar Award has achieved consensus. I apologize if I've offended you in any way. --JuanMuslim ^1m 03:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Juan, your apology rings hollow, because you still insist on insisinuating I am a demagogue - as evidenced by the previous title of this section. To anyone that cares, I have changed the title on this section. I also tried to restore my comments as they were originally presented. The link to my orginal post should be this one. --evrik 13:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Although I have apologized for offending you that doesn't necessarily change my personal opinion about whether or not I still consider you a demagogue. My talk page clearly states that comments, questions, etc left on my talk page will be be deleted almost as soon as they have been posted. --JuanMuslim ^1m 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Evrik was right. Right after you attacked him personally, and took advantage of his candidacy for the board you then used his departure to get what you wanted. "These awards are part of the Kindness Campaign and are meant to promote civility and WikiLove." You have not behaved very well - and I wish I could veto your award just because of your meanness. --63.164.145.85 19:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.