Talk:Barrister
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[edit] Accuracy
My problem with this article is that it misses the point. It confuses the definition of what a barrister is -- and how that differs from a solicitor -- and what in normal practice particlar barristers do (though there is no reason why they should). What is more, it never properly explains what the difference is.
The difference between a barrister and a solicitor is that a solicitor is an attorney -- which means they act in the place of their client -- and a barrister is a representative, which means they act on behalf of their client. The difference is an ancient one (its where the two professions came from) and is the only absolute difference between the two in England and Wales today (apart from professional bodies of course, though that may change).
This means that a solicitor can write letters to court, file claims, hold client money, sign contracts on behalf of a client and so on. They stand in the client's shoes. That is what an attorney is. A barrister cannot do any of those things. That is an absolute bar (if you will excuse the pun).
Now its also the case that practising barristers have automatic wide rights of audience that solicitors do not (though they can obtain them), although there is no reason in principle why the law society could not organise that they did. Its also true that most barristers spend a lot of time in court, but there are many barristers who do not. Many barristers have more paper based practices than many solicitors. That is not the difference in principle, its a difference in practice. Francis Davey 21:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] First Section
I feel that the first section is not written very well and for the most part a murky repetition of what follows the TOC. I'm going to remove it but since I'm far from an expert on the subject, please correct me if I'm wrong. Impaciente 16:01, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
In the last section, the description of the situation in Quebec is quite misleading, what they call "avocats" (lawyers) means both barristers and solicitors (there is no distinction between the two). In fact, I believe about 90% of lawyers don't practice before the courts and only give advice. "Notaires" (civil law notaries), who all have the same university degree as lawyers, have exclusive tasks specified by law and a different professional association (called "Chambre des notaires").
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[edit] Huh?
After reading this article, I, an American, still don't understand what a barrister is, other than what I already knew: a kind of lawyer (or attorney). Maybe you can take some ideas from the solicitor page.
[edit] In a Nutshell
This page does drown in detail, but it makes sense. To my american 'colleague' (I am British) - all you really need to know about Barristers is that they handle the more serious crimes, are the only lawyers allowed to act in a crown court and are usually commisioned by a solicitor on behalf of a client.
Unfortunately that "all" is wrong (other lawyers have rights of audience in the Crown Court -- some solicitors for example). That is linked to "handling the more serious crimes", although that is a pretty misleading comment -- I handle no crimes at all if I can help it; when I do they are very minor. The detail is quite hopeless -- it looks like someone who has just done the Bar Course or a law student rote it -- long on detail, short in explanation.
In particular, it doesn't give any feel for what we (for I am one) do. If I have time I will try to rewrite.
Francis Davey 21:16, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Law Student
just started 2nd year of degree, found this page pretty useful. how "supportive" are my parents/bank manager going to have to be, and how "supportive" is my manager likely to be if i cant get much help from parents? i'm interested in commercial work, which isn't exactly the lowest paid area, but is highly competitive, and the risk is a big factor is possibly putting me off. was a struggle enough for my parents to send me to uni, what are the various sources of help (if any) for skint ambitious young students like me? any comments would be much appreciated
[edit] American friendly explanation?
Given the problems with the current explanation that American's seem to be having, perhaps you might take a look at this Faq from the Bar Association of New South Wales (Australia):
http://www.nswbar.asn.au/Public/aboutbarristers/index.htm
Is that any good? If so, what is good about it?
[edit] An analysis of the 'old boy' network in the Bar?
Thinking that you can get through the entirity of that article and not realise that to many people in the UK, the Bar is seen as being the exclusive province of white, middle class, publicly educated prats, who get pupilage from the contacts their daddies make for them. Also required is something pointing out that the costs of training for pupilage (in essence another year at uni based all on your own personal fianance) and the low chance of actually getting a pupilage are lowering applications from other, lower class backgrounds. Would do it myself, but as you can tell im pretty opinionated about this; i'll wait two weeks, and if no one else has, i'll put in my edits anyway and flag it for attention.
86.29.19.99 02:38, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a pretty unenlightened comment. I am a fairly junior commercial barrister and I am not aware of anyone who has got a pupillage through personal contacts. Certainly none of the better sets would operate in this way. We may all be prats, but allegations of nepotism really should be supported by some facts.
In the most part, the pupillage application process is regulated by a clearing system (OLPAS) and has been for many years, in one form or another. The market for pupillage is extremely competitive. Chambers put a lot of energy into recruitment. The best candidates are extremely sought after. There is a very good reason for this. Good barristers bring in more work than they can do themselves, which leads to work being spread around chambers. Bad barristers are a liability. If clients are unimpressed, the whole of chambers will be tarred with the same brush. It is not in anyone's interests to allow sub-standard advocates in on account of contacts. In fact, barristers tend to be extremely "proper" about this. In any event, all barristers are self-employed. If we are rubbish, no-one will employ us. While certainly not perfect, the Bar is more a meritocracy than many other workplaces.
It is true that applicants need to get through the Bar Vocational Course before pupillage and that, in many cases, this is unfunded, representing a significant barrier to entry. Would-be solicitors attend a different course, the Legal Practitioners' Course, which also takes one year. The difference is that most training contract awards will cover the cost of the LPC, whereas pupillage awards may not. However, this is changing. Many non-criminal chambers will offer tax free awards which can be drawn down, in part, in the BVC year. This is unusual in criminal chambers simply because earnings tend to be much lower. Chambers operate as non-incorporated associations. Pupillage awards must therefore be funded directly from the pockets of the barristers who are already members. There are, however, a large number of scholarships available from the Inns, many of which cover more than just fees.
It is difficult to get a pupillage. This is because there are very very few jobs going, not because all the jobs go to relatives. There are only (apparently) 12,000 barristers in independent practice in the UK. I am not sure of exact numbers, but there are only a few hundred pupillages each year and not every pupil will be taken on as a tenant at a chambers. So in this sense, the financial investment in becoming a barrister is a significant risk. However, most of the better students on my BVC course did make it. Many had to try more than once and some had to take paralegal or other jobs to fund a year out to reapply. Those that didn't are doing fine now anyway. The training you receive along the way does give you very marketable skills.
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As a barrister from a working class background - I used to work as a builder, went to a former Polytechnic and now practice as a commercial/common law barrister at a prominent set in the Temple - I would support the entry immediately above.
It would be foolish not to recognise that attending an excellent public school and Oxbridge college doesn't provide you with a great start for a career at the Bar, and that not a few tenants follow in the footsteps of parents. However, this isn't (as far as I can tell) due to any form nepotism. It is simply that such institutions provide first rate training for life at the Bar, and parents at the Bar the necessary funds and/or ambition in the first place, and so the rest of us may have to work that bit harder to reach the standard for ourselves.
The only point which might be made about restricted access is the difficulty in securing funding for the BVC, and whilst you can expect to run up considerable debts if (as I was) you are reliant on bank loans and part time jobs, for those brave enough to take the gamble it is possible. However, loans are available with repayment over 10 years or so, and almost all pupillages are now funded.
There is nowhere to hide in this job if you slip up - you cannot rely on 'Daddy's reputation' when addressing a jury or the Judge, or when cross examining a witness. Any 'prats' would very quickly find themselves without a practice to speak of. By the same process, those with real talent and skill will have plenty of opportunity to demonstrate it, and soon find themsleves in demand from clients.
I agree, the above does not chime with my own experience at all. True, there are a lot of problems with the way the Bar recruits, and it could be made easier in various ways so as to be less discriminatory, but it is in fact one of the easiest professions to get into on merit. I came to the bar in later life and find it has a much more transparent structure than any I have worked in before.
Consider the percentage of non-white, non-public school educated (I assume the original anonymous comment meant that) people in the bar. My own chambers has lots of non-whites, very few Oxbridge educated (I'm not sure who else) and so on.
I would be very interested to hear of any evidence of a recent pupillage being secured through nepotism. I have never seen it. Francis Davey 22:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
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I am an Australian barrister, and I agree too. Good connections will get you a good start, but once started, connections alone will not keep you in successful practice. If you're no good, then no matter who your father/mother is you will not go very far. However, our system is diferent to the UK system in that there are no restrictions on the number of pupils.
As a newly called Irish barrister, I agree with the points about meritocracy. There are no restrictions on the number of pupils in Ireland. There are no chambers either. It is a question of hanging in until the skills and contacts develop. Having family members in the right places is useful for getting the early experience. Under the Irish system many barristers of four to six years standing have no work to speak of. Other barristers who have more work than they can handle are often asked by solicitors to nominate suitable barristers when they are too busy to run a case. Virtually all practices are built up on these handovers until the solicitor starts instructing the barrister directly.
As a barrister of more than 7 years call, I thought the original poster had a reasonable point that none of the subsequent posters managed to address.
First, he was making a point about perception. Whatever the truth of the matter, this is how the Bar is seen by most in the UK. Anyone who claims otherwise is talking crap.
Secondly, the perception has a substantial basis in fact. Despite improvements in recent years, the Bar is overwhelmingly white, middle class, oxbridge-educated and male. The proportion of female barristers are improving to the point of parity at the junior end. The proportion of ethnic minorities remains fairly abysmal.
Third, his nepotism point was also misconstrued. In this day and age, it is virtually impossible to be a successful barrister without hard work and ability. But it would be equally false to claim that there is no nepotism at the bar whatsoever - all things being equal, the son or daughter of a High Court judge stands a better than average chance of securing pupillage. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the reasons why that would be so.
Fourthly, although I agree that success at the Bar depends on ability, I wonder how genuinely meritocratic the Bar can claim to be given the obvious and formidable financial barriers that stand in the way of entry to the profession: lack of sufficient funding for pupillage, problems with junior tenants securing enough work to live on. Generally speaking, it is much easier making it through the early years of the Bar if you have a family that is able to offer financial support. With such substantial barriers, it's hardly surprising therefore that those who make it tend to come from backgrounds where family financial support is not problematic nor that many law students opt to become solicitors instead.
Newc0253 17:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal to move text
Hopefully there is general agreement that this article is now in much better shape that when earlier users found it. However I think this is limited to content. The problem is where does the content belong. There is much duplication between this Article and "Barristers in England and Wales", and, furthermore, this article dwells far more on the English and Welsh Bar than it does on the general features of the profession of barrister. Indeed general features may be few and far between, in which case the article should offer a brief comparative overview of the profession of barrister in different jurisdictions.
My proposal therefore is to move sections in relation to E&W to the "Barristers in England and Wales" article, and in so doing clean that article up. A few general paragraphs will be left in this Article, which would then focus on the various bars around the world. --Gazzetta 11:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. Ariwara 21:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hear hear Fat Red 12:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Good idea. JPF 22:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Major edit,
This article is steadily improving since the section on E&W was moved, and with the addition of some of good material. It is still cluttered in some way, and I deduced that there were two many variations throughout the text (particulary for E&W, Scotland, Ireland and Australia). Explaining a variation is best done under its own heading, so as to allow for easier reading.
In this edit, a few points have been lost because the are extraneous, partly or wholly repetitive or (in one case) inaccurate. They may reappear in due course once this edit has been reviewed.
Some may feel that removing the references to Advocate through the text unfairly ignores the distinction. Perhaps a mention could go in the introduction, but the purpose of the article is to define the term and role of a "barrister". If an Advocate is a barrister in all but name then the distinction is best dealt with in its own section. I take a similar line in relation to other national traditions.
Finally I am not convinced that text about the systems in Quebec, the US and Spain belong in this article. They may be analogous but they do not represent a variation on the main theme. Instead they demonstrate an underlying theme of how the different roles of lawyer are carried on. I have not deleted the text so as to allow for further consideration. --217.16.87.168 10:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] shaking hands
I was always under the impression that barristers did not shake hands because if they did their clients might think that they were doing dodgy deals or something.
I think that their clients probably think that anyway so perhaps that's why the rule is no longer much observed.
[edit] Distinctions Between Barrister and Solicitor
Personally, I feel this article lacks the basic distinctions between (well read section title)... The first para. of the article should be re-written to encompass this. Jonomacdrones 02:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. It would also be helpful to set out some of the reasoning for having a split legal profession (which fused profession jurisdictions tend to look on as madness). I am happy to have a stab at it, but I know there have been some heated debates about the contents of this page before, so please, nobody shoot me if I do. Legis 16:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I've tried to put in a note that the essential difference (still true in my jurisdiction) which is clear and fundamental is that barristers aren't attorneys and solicitors are. Being an attorney is more expensive and can involve quite a bit of non-court time, which is why barristers exist -- to be specialist non-attorneys. As it happens, most barristers are then able to spend far more time in court and will understand court practice better than solicitors, which explains the practical difference between the professions. It really does make sense. Its far cheaper to pay me to go to court than a solicitor, because I don't have to maintain all the gubbins associated with attorneyhood (thankfully) but as a result I am much less useful to a member of the general public who doesn't know how to conduct litigation. Seems straightforward to me. All these remarks about specialisation are only half-truths or generalisations. Most of my colleagues in chambers are less specialist than most of the solicitors who instruct us -- nevertheless we spend more time on law and less on admin so can be more expert than them. Francis Davey 16:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
