Talk:Barmy Army
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[edit] Milestones
Am not sure if this is the right template, but this section definitly doesn't read like an encylcopedia. e.g. "We raised..." The One00 12:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
"It was perhaps the Australian media's description during the tour that created the name (the original name given to them was not printable)" Wikipedia isn't censored so does anyone know what the original name was?
Barmy Army was an old Football song and I can clearly remember it being sung at the Cricket in 1993 and on tour to the Windies before it was used in Australia. Its not one of the songs they use now just a repetitive "Barmy Army, Barmy Army" over and over. Thats why they started to be called the Barmy Army, I think they were first referred to as that on SKY TV during the away tours 1993-1995. The organised Barmy Army which is a limited Company just took their name from that.
[edit] Removal of "Irony" section
This section seems to me to be irrelevant to the article. The Army's chants reflect that many of Australia's citizens originate from convict colonies. As with any 'humorous' jibe at another nation, the chanters would hardly be expected to enter into any level of historical analysis; most probably are of Australians' origins. Aside from that, this section seems a slightly strange socio-historical intrusion into an article which is unrelated to any political issues. Unless anyone can provide a referenced article or piece of research which suggests that this is a notable aspect of Barmy Army history/practice, then it should stay deleted.
Imagine having a section in the article on Star Wars which speculated that George Lucas was unaware of the message sent by Luke Skywalker wearing white and Darth Vader wearing black. Just because someone notices this kind of thing, doesn't mean that it is notable.Martpol 13:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reinclusion of "Irony" section
One of the central tenets of the Barmy Army's approach to their chanting is that their humour is tinged with more sophisticated constructs such as "irony". Indeed many of their tunes display undoubted 'ironical' elements. However, the Army has also ignored the counter-ironical elements which are present in their lyrics. I believe these to be worthy of inclusion in this article and propose their reinstatement.
If you disagree, I would suggest a more fruitful avenue for your next edit is to include positive examples of the Barmy Army's 'irony'.
[edit] Re reinclusion of "Irony" section
Whilst I think the matter speaks for itself, I have included references to Australian genealogical websites which affirm the origin of convict transportation to Australia. I had previously included the reference to the Barmy Army chants. I kindly ask you to desist in deleting this section. As an alternative, feel free to include your own positive examples of the Barmy Army's approach to irony. User:Timmiorusselli
- Sorry, but this is still not worthy of inclusion unless you or another contributor can actually provide references to (a) whether there is a general belief that the Barmy Army's chants are 'ironic' or (b) whether this 'irony' is 'lost' on the Army's members. Otherwise, this is pure speculation. I would "include my own positive examples of the Barmy Army's approach to irony" if I really thought they were being ironic, but I don't. For now, I'm leaving in the note about the chants themselves, but removing the links (this isn't the right place for information about Australian penal colonies, except for the internal link that I have now established). - Martpol 12:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- Given the under-referenced nature of the 'Barmy Army' article generally, the section on irony is notable for the volume of its references (3 notes for this paragraph versus 0 for the entire remainder of the article). However, I can now provide you with the specific reference that you seek on (a) and in fact refer you to the following page on the Barmy Army's own website [[1]]. If the section on irony is deleted in the future, then much of the original article will need to be deleted on a matching basis, to the extent it lacks references (ie. the "Timeline 0f Notable Events". - User:Timmiorusselli 17.29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- OK, I'm leaving some of this to stand. But the whole relevance of "irony" is still unclear in this section. There is nothing clearly explained as being ironic, which warrants the section heading "Irony".
Where does the "irony" lie: in the chants themselves (I'm yet to see an example of one that is. They may be satirical, humorous, offensive - but ironic?)? Or in the juxtaposition of the chants' subject matter and the truth about the origins of Australian convicts? There is little clarity here. And we still don't have any reference for the claim that "This has been a point frequently lost on members of the Barmy Army during their Australian tours." Until this "point" is explained more clearly, and until it is referenced, it should stay out of what is otherwise (generally) a facts-based article. - Martpol 19:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- Martpol, how long is a piece of string? You seem like an intelligent individual so I suspect the struggle you are having identifying the ironical elements in the article is contrived rather than real. I'll give you a couple of days to think about this and to read the material on the Barmy Army website (much of which seems to have been cut and pasted into the Wikipedia article without any great thought given to it). If you can find a more neutral way of commenting on the fact that the Barmy Army's remarks about penal colonies focus unduly on the destination of convict settlement rathet than the source of same, then please put finger to keyboard. If not then I will need to reinstate the original wording. User:Timmiorusselli.
- Have checked the referenced page on the Barmy Army website and notice that it makes absolutely no claim that the chants themselves are intended to be ironic, only some of the banter directed at Australian fans - "The Army verbally conquered the Aussies with the use of songs, chants, irony and wit". I therefore feel compelled to fend this section away (in much the same way as KP had to fend away the ball that Warney threw at his head at the Gabba yesterday) until factual information is both supplied and cited.
I also think the point is being missed about the origins of the first Europeans to settle Australia - it's not where they came from, merely the fact that they were convicts that the Barmy Army likes to poke fun at. This section may suggest to readers that Australians are in fact proud of their English heritage? BrisbanePom 21:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- On comparing recent versions of the article, I think the problem with the (currently deleted) section is the amount of detail provided, rather than its subject matter. The subject matter of Barmy Army chants might deserve a whole section if enough detail and referenced commentary can be provided to warrant it. Otherwise, it should stay out. Titling the section Irony is also somewhat misleading, as well as sounding rather silly (it reminds me of the chapter titles in Clerks). But since I support BrisbanePom's decision to delete, I'm not volunteering to do that work. - Martpol 07:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
