Talk:Austro-Hungarian gulden

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[edit] denomination capitalization

I don't think the denominations should be capitalized because we're not speaking German. However, I see your point, since we are using the German words. I'm going to take it to the Numismatics talk page, much as I don't want to start another huge discussion there. Ingrid

I agree that it'll be a horrible discussion. The problem is that I've recently been living in Germany and can't really get out of the habit of writing German nouns with capitals.
Dove1950 22:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Austrian Empire

The Austrian Empire page says that it existed from 1804-1867. Ingrid 23:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to go in and change the Austrian Empire page as the nomenclature of the Hapsburg realm was a mess. After 1867, there were two governments, the Imperial (Kaiserlich) and Royal (Königlich). The royal government ruled Hungary (which included Transylvania, Slovakia, Slovenia and part of Croatia) and the imperial ruled everywhere else, including Austria. Austria-Hungary is a term which covers the whole Hapsburg realm fairly accurately and I use it throughout.
Dove1950 22:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. Most of what you've said refers to the period after 1867 (which I'm glad to know more about). What would you call the empire, or whatever, from 1804-1867? Are you saying that you use "Austria-Hungary" to refer to what others here use "Austrian Empire" to refer to? That is, the period from 1804-1867? I am not an expert on Austrian history, and so cannot argue whether that's appropriate or not (and have no idea what it is appropriate to call the region during that time). Ingrid 00:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The Austrian Empire page is inaccurate and misleading. Holy Roman Emperor Francis II took the title Emperor of Austria in 1804 and gave up the title of Holy Roman Emperor in 1805. Nothing changed in terms of the governance of his realms (other than those being enforced by the French invaders). The changes occured in 1867, as I described above.

I still don't understand the problem with calling it the Austrian Empire. I've checked a couple of history books, and they call it the Austrian Empire. If Francis II called himself Emperor of Austria, what's the problem? Ingrid 23:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the Austrian Empire didn't exist in any governmental form in 1804. When Francis II took the title of Emperor of Austria, the term Kaisertum was used rather than Kaiserreich. [1] The later means empire, the former was invented in order not to mean empire. Furthermore, the gulden was the currency of Austria and Hungary, so saying that it was the currency of Austria is misleading. This subject is a minefield, particularly because we're trying to translate terms from German which don't exist in English. That's why some history books translate Kaisertum as empire. What we have now is accurate and not misleading. If we start splitting up the various phases of Austria-Hungary's history according to Francis's titles, we'll generate something open to incessant editing that will almost certainly confuse without being necessarily accurate. I hope I'm not increasing the confusion here.
Dove1950 20:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your thoughtful replies, and I hope my lack of understanding is not too frustrating for you. The reason that it bothers me the way it is is that it's not internally consistent. Wikipedia (Austria-Hungary, Austrian Empire) says that Austria-Hungary did not exist before 1867, and that the Empire of Austria did. Your objections to calling it the Austrian Empire seem reasonable, but more appropriately discussed at talk:Austrian Empire or if there is such a thing Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Austria. Unless/Until that is changed, I think we should use it. I am not suggesting using other of Francis's titles, or anything inconsistent with what is already here. Ingrid 20:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Reading more carefully, I notice that using "Austrian Empire" was not correct either. I suggest that it should be "Holy Roman Empire"->"Austrian Empire"->"Austria-Hungary" as it is in the Austrian history template. Ingrid 23:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)