Talk:Australian English/Archive4

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[edit] Chippie = Carpenter?

I grew up in the Castlereagh area (west of Sydney) but moved into the Eastern suburbs as a teenager. I have always heard and used "chipie" as a reference to the local "fish and chip shop" as in "gunna go to the chippie for lunch?" I don't know if that is a regionalisation or just another use of the term. It was also common to have heard Pauline Hansen referred to as an "ex-chippie".

[edit] What Question

From the article Perception has it that a common trait is the frequent use of long-winded similes, such as "slow as a wet week", "built like a brick shit-house", "mad as a cut snake", or "flat out like a lizard drinking". Whether this perception is based in reality or has been produced by popular culture items of fiction such as the (successfully exported) television soap opera Neighbours and the films of Paul Hogan remains in question

I grew up with these sayings as a part of a normal day long before neighbours and the crocodile dundee movies... so why are questionable, and they cant be ficticious creations of the writers of these. Gnangarra 10:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I would agree that it exists. I've certainly grown up with it myself, but it might be a long stretch to call it a 'common trait'. It certainly exists. --Randolph 12:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've heard phrases like that "built like a brick shit house" my dad used to say it to me, cause as I was growin up and gettin bigger, refering to the old says when the toilet was in the garden, it was big n solid. paul


It mightbe disputable as a current 'common trait' but it definatley hasn't been produced by the metioned programs, they would utlize such language only if it was recognisable as a stereotypical 'common trait'. It's occurance through most shows produced for Australian TV during the 60's, 70's and 80's including Prisoner, Kingswood Country, Cop Shop, Sullivans, Skippy, Blanket Blanks, Family Feud, Number 96 indicates that it must have been at least a recognisable style of Australian English. The wide spread nature of the use would also dispell it as an individual character trait created for any one particular character, or by anyone group of writers... From memory most of the people i knew who used this style of language frequently were from the generation that grew up prior to television this generation didnt have media based language intrussions of those who have grownup through the 80's and 90's. Gnangarra 17:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I know some others like "its black over bills mothers" "As big as a bonk 'oss" same sorta sayings http://www.sedgleymanor.com/dictionaries/sayings.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.201.193.70 (talk • contribs) .

I adjusted the article to reflect this Gnangarra 06:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Black Country English Section

[edit] Removed section

The section quoted below was recently added by an anonymous editor, 195.93.21.10. I've removed it. It's riddled with factual mistakes, unsourced assertions and statements so broad as to be meaningless at least as often as its spelling mistakes and poor formatting. Perhaps someone can salvage a point or two from it; I doubt it, though. —Felix the Cassowary 00:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

===Black country and south staffordshire influences===

There is some influence from broad Black_Country english, the tonality of the broad outback australien in some regions are related braod working class black country in england. In the black country region of england youl'll hear people talking with the greeting "warro aer kid" "ow bin ya mayte" in that sing songy loose tone the same as australien, often when someone from the black country region of england travels they will often get mistaken fpr being australien, ain't gets pronounced as "aye" "don't" as "dow" "did'nt = daye" "you as yo" which is common in outback talk. its widely regarded in the black country that the black country diallect was a dominant force behind the aussie diallect. the black country diallect is so broad its almost its own language and is regarded as the most broadest and most depronounced accents. In the black country and south staffordshire t's are often pronounced as R's and whole vowels can change, someone askin for a cup of tea might ask "dyo wanna cupataye" it is also common in black country to replace my for me. Black country wasnt the only influence there were many others from all the broad working class regional diallects in england and Ireland, but the sing song tonalty of black country and the relaxed pronunciation shows a prominent link. The black country is a isolated community with a distinct diallect of its own, and if you hear it in its broadest form, the australien diallects sound the same. Durring the last century there was vast amounts of immigration from this region when the black country was going into industrial decline, the black country refers to the area of south staffordshire that was heavily polluted in the last century for the heavy iron foundaries and coal mines and all sorts of industry, it was a very industrial area, producing heavy anchors and chain saddles, when the area went through the depression there was lots of people willing to seek a new life down under, and they brought their broad black country diallect with them. The Black country diallect is widley known as the broadest oldest diallect in england. heres an example,

warro aer kid, ows it gooin me ol' mukka? ows it gooin me ol chiuyna? arm alriute arr! warrayo bin upto? I aye bin doin alot, just drinkin me beer n avin a baga pork scratchings

Nah Felix, it's just an attempt at humour. I just removed it again. Grant65 | Talk 18:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

No its not an attempt at hummor, i'm from the black country and I know. The language words I have used are used by my own relatives and older people in the local area with the broader diallects. You need to compare a broad black country diallect with a broad australian one on tape they share the same sounds. Its a little known diallect and its rare. How can you say what I say id facturally inaccurate if you don't live in the black country, theres alot of innacuracies on the black country page due to the fact that some of the people who wrote it arent from the area, intellectuals sitting on their ivory tower so to speak. What you need is recordings of the two accents side by side and judge it for yourself, and write your own artical on the subject if you don't like mine!.

my names paul email me here bluenfunky@aol.com I have loads of diallect recordings, if you guys wanna deny your roots, and think of any stupid excuse, go ahead, but hey thats all part of being australian and american, why don't ya go and change the names of your towns, theres so many black country town names in australia, tamworth, tipton, dudley you could research more, the people named the towns after the towns they immigrate from, theres not a "new northen ireland" or a "new belfast" your all just being wishful thinking. To be fair irish dialect sounds nothing at all like austrailian, if you want the real answer it lies in the dirty coal pits and smog of the black country dirty lands unfortunatley. Now you'd of thaught with most of the population being miners they would naturally be ideal people to take part in the gold mining of the 1850's. The black country diallect has definatley been overlooked as a colonial influence, probably cause of the class prejudise of the black country people and the fact that few people know it. If you look in the records there are vast amounts of people from the region who emmigrated, and it makes sence the black country was the worst place to live.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.4 (talk • contribs) 04:08, 20 January 2006 (ACST).

What you're saying is very interesting Paul, but wikipedia doesn't allow original research. You will need to find some verifiable, published sources for the information you're conveying to include it in this encyclopaedia, otherwise your additions will keep being reverted. You will also need to rewrite your information to make it more clearly understood. There are some resources available at Category:Wikipedia_help that may help you in this regard. Natgoo 21:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


Interestingly, the township presently called Port Fairy (SE Victoria, near Warrnambool) was previously called Belfast, see 1866 Warrnambool Postal Directory salada82 06:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are many such examples, including Dublin, South Australia, Londonderry, New South Wales, Shannon National Park, a "Donnybrook" in three states, the most prominent being Donnybrook, Western Australia, and so on.
Also, that there is a controversy about Ned Kelly's accent: even though he was born in Australia and some observers said he had an Australian accent, others said that he had an Irish lilt (which is how he was portrayed by Heath Ledger). The truth probably lies somewhere between the two, but not even the staunchest Australian monarchist/anglophile would seriously question the importance of the Irish influence on Australian culture. Grant65 | Talk 06:33, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English Black Country influence

the only thing I've found that backs me up in what I'm sayin is from a book called "the story of english" written by Robert McCrum back in 1992. I dunno what else it says but I just quoted it from an australian slang page.

Today, Australian English, famous for its air of novelty, is something of a living museum, preserving.. eighteenth and nineteenth century regional words from Cornwall, Wessex, the Midlands, East Anglia, Northumbria, Scotland and Ireland.

alot of my relatives. my grandads they say "warro mert" "warro aer kid" and I just wondered is "warro" meanin hello used in australian dialect? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.4 (talk • contribs) .

No, it isn't. I've been to the Black Country and I'm buggered if I can see any similarities between the local dialect and Australian English, to be honest. Grant65 | Talk 19:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Warro? No. If anything, the 'h' is mostly silent, and we have no trouble saying our l's. So 'hello' becomes 'ello or 'allo. Imroy 22:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Or we say "hey" or "hi" or "g'day" or "(g')morning"/"(g'd) afternoon"/"(g'd) evening". Most ex-colonial dialects could be thought of in some ways as "living museums", most especially Scottish, Irish and American English as the oldest exports of the language. Still, I'd be hard pressed to think of very many Australian words that hark back to British regional ones. Basically "tucker" and "chook". —Felix the Cassowary 09:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
And dinkum (East Midlands). Grant65 | Talk 11:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
warro is similar in sound to hoooroo its not a greating as such but a means of identifing ones presence within house or where one is within sight or another but that person has yet notice them Gnangarra 10:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I hadn't thought of hooroo. But does it come from warro, a similar regionalism or somewhere else? Grant65 | Talk 11:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I've always thought "hooroo" meant "goodbye"? I have no idea where it comes from; if someone has access to a decent Australian dictionary it might say. —Felix the Cassowary | toːk 15:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
My Macquarie Dictionary (4th Ed., 2005) says hooroo is "an alteration of hooray" (i.e. hooray as a salutation). So there doesn't seem to be a connection to warro. Grant65 | Talk 16:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of Cunt

The section I removed from the main article, original insertion of cunt had no relevance to the topic. The original editor has since reword the the statement and reinserted with unsubstanciated claims, I have also removed with the similar claims.

This is what was stated

The word cunt is used extensively by a portion of the Australian population, usually as a pronoun, though this usage is not considered polite, it is not always intended to be offensive.
  • how big a portion are you claiming
  • not only used as a pronoun but also the noun.
  • the use of cunt is intended to be offensive.


Also what of other words like wanker, pig, coon, abbo, gin, wog, wop, dago, pom, gook, skippy etc all are extensively used by portions of the population.

All of these would have a claim to existance within Australian English.

Lets obtain a fair concensus as to its relevance, and formulate the appropriate wording with examples of propper usage prior to it insertion on the main article. Gnangarra 07:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

One more point within the article the editor created for the word Cunt it specifically mentions its use in the US, Britian, and Australia. Its not exclusive to the Australian English and therefore shouldn't be in this Article Gnangarra 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
  • 1. Portion

I cannot say how large of a portion, though I estimate more than 10%. All of the people I asked (my friends, so yes a biased sample, but no i didn't tell them i was arguing on wikipedia about the subject) all but one agreed that the word was used ALOT in Australia. Then, after I described the word as being used as a pronoun, all agreed that this was right.

So you're saying this is Original Research? Then we can't include it anyway no matter how true it is, see WP:NOR. —Felix the Cassowary | toːk 13:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no research I know of that entirely describes the extent of the usuage of the word. The same is true, for many other Australian words used here.

However, the Macquarie dictionairy slang project listed 9 definitions of the word, including "any person", "an object of annoyance", an expletive, sexual intercourse etc. And then 7 compound words.

So this is hardly "original research", it is hard however, to exactly determine the extent of it's usage in Australia. However, I challenge you to determine the extent of the usage of other slang included in this article. All we have is anecdotal evidence, and slang definitions. --R0m

  • 2. Pronoun, Noun and Expletive

It is used as a noun (for female genitalia, as a misogynistic expression for women, an obnoxious person, any person) on this we can all agree.

As a pronoun for example "Pass me the cunts", "That cunt dropped his wallet" etc. This usuage is less offensive and doesn't neccassary imply anger or annoyance. Ie "that cunt over there" is less offensive than saying "that bloke over there is a cunt".

As an expletive "I've had a cunt of a day" "This cunt of a thing won't work" "this games a cunt to finish".

  • 3. Examples of use not intended to be offensive

Using cunt as a pronoun "pass me the cunts" etc

  • 4. relevence

Why is it relevent? because among the large minority of people who use it, it's used ALOT. I think on construction sites, workshops, and primary industries it's usuage would certianly rival that of fuck.

It was inserted in the relevent section in a paragraph beginning with "Spoken Australian English is generally more tolerant of offensive and/or abusive language than other variants". There aleady offensive language in that paragraphy "arse-licking". This is a worthy example of tolerance of offensive language in spoken english.

The funny thing is, few would argue that motherfucker was used as a pronoun among some sections of the American population. The people who use cunt as a pronoun in Australia use it more often than the section of the US population that uses motherfucker as a pronoun.

Like I said earlier, to say that cunt is not used this way in Australia, is to claim you've observed a large sample of people, from all sections of society, in a large number of situations over a long period of time. But to say cunt is used as a pronoun, only one example is needed, and i've heard it literally thousands of times.

  • 5. Other offensive words

As for the arguements that abo should be included .. it already is. Wanker is used alot, but only as a common noun (has other forms verbs (wanking), adjective (wanky), and the usuage isn't unique. The other words mentioned are used in even more limited ways. Cunt has alot of flexibility, many definitions and has formed many compound words. (sus-cunt, cunt-struck, fat-cunt, rich-cunt, sly-cunt etc)

  • 6. Other countries using cunt similarly

Though other commonwealth countries (such as new zealand) may use cunt in a similar fashion, Australians do seem to use it more. However, this arguement is irrelevent since many "Australian" words such as "mate, bloke" etc are used extensively in NZ, and the UK, though are still in the article. The reason is that being entirely exclusive to Australia is not the litmus test of relevence for Australian English.

--R0m

I think you might be trolling ROm, but anyway, there is zero hard evidence of the word being used more by Australians than by other nationalities. Grant65 | Talk 03:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? Then that being the case there is no evidence that "Spoken Australian English is generally more tolerant of offensive and/or abusive language than other variants." The reality is that cunt is used alot in Australia, and is perhaps the best example of this sentence. So far there have been no points against the words cunts inclusion, except sourcing, even though Macquarie dictionary of Australian slang includes may definitions and compound words for cunt. If Macquarie dictionary accepts the word cunt as Australian slang what's stopping wikipedia? (people who want to censor this article)

Is there any evidence that Mate is said more in Australia than New Zealand? Should mate be deleted untill it's proven that it's said more in Australia? What happens if it's said more in New Zealand? As I said earlier, that's not the litmus test for inclusion as Australian slang.

Cunt is widely used enough, in enough ways to be notable, particularly in a paragraph showing spoken english is more tolerant of offensive language?

--R0m

Or maybe you've just got Tourette's... Grant65 | Talk 04:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"Talk page guidelines - Please respect Etiquette, assume good faith and be nice." Who's the one trolling again?

Honestly, why is this even being discussed? As shocking a word as it is, ROm has a very good point, which (so far) no-one has been able to debate.


- J

to date the only people pushing its inclusion are annomous ip adress and user:R0m. I have remove a repost by R0m please let the discussion page reach a consenus. Gnangarra 05:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't a repost, that was adding a famous quote from Jeff Kennett and Andrew Peacock.

I agree with - J, why are we debating this? Nobody has came up with a good reason why the word, listed in the macquarie dictionary book of slang, should not be included in the paragraph stating Australians are more tolerant of offensive language in spoken english? -- R0m

  • Can someone do a sockpuppet check on the anon and R0m? They both started posting around the same day in the same areas. I suspect there's a good reason the two of them agree. (Though of course it could just be R0m and a friend.)
  • R0m, ——————————— (old content deleted, see below for a better response).

—Felix the Cassowary | toːk 14:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

User:R0m and scoket User:210.84.41.100 are the same peroson User R0m was previously signing this socket as R0m. this is based on contribs by both R0m 1st post was after 0900 hrs 26 januARY 2006. THIS WAS REVERTED. after 1400hr saem day socket 210.84.41.100 entered the discussion supporting R0m. edits prior to 26th by socket 210.84.41.100 were signed R0m. Gnangarra 14:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
So then he's different from J, and I'm wrong. Apologies. Still, I imagine you're friends/family and that doesn't really make you a representative sample. —Felix the Cassowary | toːk 14:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I looked at J five edits 2 on 27 march 2005 and then three for his contirbutions to this discussions, nothing within those edits to show a connection, the other two have been referred to a specialist socket puppet investigator. Gnangarra 14:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that's not really fair. R0m, we don't need to include the example; it does not add much to the article. On the other hand, it significantly detracts from the article. Consider:­ We already say "Spoken Australian English is generally more tolerant of offensive and/or abusive language than other variants", and continue on. The point is made, it does not need to use the word cunt explicitly.

On the other hand the word "cunt" is generally considered highly offensive, both within Australia and without. Regardless of your intention, I as an Australian would be offend if I heard you, referring to me, saying "That cunt's dropped his wallet". If we include your specific reference to "cunt", then many parents will simply not want their children to read Wikipedia, nor will teachers be allowed to direct their classes to it. The language is simply inappropriate and is not of central importance; the point is already made without reference to the usage of a specific word. That's why we can't include it.

Anyway, as to my other comment, a pronoun is a specific part of speech. You seem to be under the impression that a pronoun is signfied by use as "people, objects, any subject of a sentence". It is not. See the pronoun article, and in particular personal pronoun for what a pronoun actually is. All your examples are simple nouns. Try replacing "gentleman" for "cunt", and "he/him" for "cunt" (and "cunt" alone).

That cunt's dropped his wallet.
That gentleman's dropped his wallet.
*That he's dropped his wallet.
I saw the cunt.
I saw the gentleman.
*I saw the him.

(The star before the sentence means it's ungrammatical with the meaning intended.)

This diagnostic isn't always reliable, but generally in English a pronoun will stand for a whole noun phrase, which includes any modifiers, and cannot then be combined with them. It would be interesting if cunt was used as a pronoun (in more than a couple odd cases): But it isn't.

I hope this helps

—Felix the Cassowary | toːk 14:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Good thing for a real objection, is cunt a personal pronoun? You have demonstrated it can't be used as a pronoun and is a replacement for a noun, with this understanding the motherfucker article should be looked at. My interest in cunt started when i noticed that men at construction sites said cunt, far more than black americans say motherfucker. However, cunt is used as a replacement noun extensively in Australia. Making wikipedia non-offensive to parents, teachers, or any other group (religious, political, corporate)etc isn't a worthy objection.

Does the use of cunt add to the article? Does mangy maggot? arse-licking? Why should something that could be said in a PG movie demonstrate that Australians are more accepting of offensive language.

I'll accept your informative edit about cunt not being used as a pronoun, though due to the lazy grammatical rules followed by slang etc.

but that doesn't change that cunt : cunt

   noun (Offensive) 1. the vagina or vulva; a woman's genitals. 2. women considered as sexual objects: There'll be plenty of cunt at the party. 3.  (Derogatory) a despicable person. 4. any person. 5. sexual intercourse. --interjection 6. an exclamation of disgust or annoyance, often used as a mere intensifier. --phrase 7. a cunt of a (thing), an extremely annoying (thing): I can't get this cunt of an engine to run. 8. cunt off, (used imperatively) go away; fuck off. 9. pissed as a cunt, extremely drunk. [Middle English cunte, counte, in Old Norse kunta, Old Frisian kunte]

4 - 9 are definitions that many english speakers, who are used to American english, would be surprised by.

And the many compound words cunt has spawned. It's a word that has been taken up particular currency in Australia.

It is the most offensive word in the english language to many people including most Australians, but it's used so much in spoken english in Australia that it's certianly notable.

No, it's taken up particular currency amongst some people who happen to live in Australia. Most Australians don't use "cunt" the way you claim. Before it has any place in this article, it must be shown that the same sort of people who use "cunt" in this way in Australia don't also do it in other places. With cited research, not random nonsense from someone who wants to swear in an encyclopedia article. —Felix the Cassowary | toːk 15:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

You have demonstrated that cunt shouldn't be considered as a pronoun, but not that it shouldn't be considered in the article. --R0m

I don't need to. You need to demonstrate that it should be in the article. You have not. Find some published research on this topic so we know it happens, and we will come back and discuss it (i.e. that's a necessary, not sufficient, condition for inclusion). —Felix the Cassowary | toːk 15:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I've no problem with the inclusion on cunt on the grounds of any offensiveness. I'm not in favour of censorship. However, I would question what this example adds to the article. Do we include a bit on every offensive word? If so, then this section would soon expand into an article in its own right ... which may not be a bad thing. Also if there is no source for this, then it doesn't belong as per Wiki policy mentioned above. Jimp 16:12, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
That was majorly my point. It adds nothing, so it doesn't need to be added, so it shouldn't because, even if you aren't in favor of "censorship" (nothing's being censored, we're just finding a more acceptible way of expressing it), some people prefer a more acceptible way of expressing it. —Felix the Cassowary | toːk 15:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we have a problem here with original research rule as well.Grant65 | Talk 08:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

There's no problem with the original research rule, cunt isn't a personal pronoun, it means "any person", is an expletive etc.The research comes from the Macquarie dictionary of Australian Slang.

As it stands the paragraph about Australians being more tolerant of offensive language in spoken english is weak. "Arse-licking" is an OK example, but the other quotes are more examples of direct language, and "mangy maggot" is offensive in the sense that it's insulting, but not offensive language.

This paragraph should be justified with the best example, the use of the word cunt, usually considered the most offensive, by Australians to refer to "any person", or as an emphasizer etc. Without this the paragraph is weak.

I was wrong to consider cunt a pronoun, that's the good thing about discussion, but the objections that cunt refers to "any person" in Australian slang are invalid. -- R0m


[edit] Spelling question

Are Australians careful not to let their tires rub against the curb, as Americans and Canadians are, or not to let their tyres rub against the kerb, as the British and Irish are? Angr/talk 09:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

"Tyres" and "kerb", at least for the moment. Grant65 | Talk 09:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Angr/talk 09:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I can second what Grant says. Jimp 15:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whingey British English

The article had read as follows.

Australian English is sometimes described as high-pitched, nasal, lazy, or drawling. The 
claims of high pitch and nasality are not entirely true, as many Australian English 
speakers perceive much of American English to be nasal, British English to be "Whingey" in 
tone, while laziness and drawling are impossible to test objectively.

I've removed the reference to British English's being to be "Whingey" in tone. I don't think that this is the perception at all. It is true that Aussie stereotype the English as whinging Poms but this is not due to the perceived tone of British English. It's a stereotype about what the English say not how they say it. The conception is that the English complain a lot it has nothing to do with their tone of voice. I think the editor who added this had confused these two concepts. Jimp 04:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

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