User talk:Augustgrahl

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1. User_talk:Augustgrahl/Archive 1 (03 November 2006)

Contents 1 Armenia in Europe 2 RfC opening on Armenia 3 Closure of Armenia strawpoll 4 Armenia

[edit] Armenia in Europe

I am a member of the AMA (Association of Members' Advocates) currently acting on behalf of User:Caligvla, who has named you as one of the participants in the dispute over whether Armenia is in Europe or Asia. Caligvla has listed a number of reference sources classifying Armenia as an Asian country. He claims that the only sources quoted by your side of the dispute are 1.) an obsecure Canadian website that places Armenia in Europe, and a BBC article that mistakenly places Armenia in Europe. Can you please respond to this and give your side of the argument (preferably on my userpage)? Under the AMA principle of audi alteram partem, you have the right to be heard. (NB Copies of this message have been placed on the talkpage of all those who Caligvla has named as participants in the dispute.) Walton monarchist89 09:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I appreciate the fact that you have provided sources supporting your side of the dispute. As Armenia is a member of the Council of Europe, this indicates that politically they may be considered a part of Europe. It now appears to me that the weight of evidence is roughly equal on both sides. The trouble with the whole Wikipedia process is that, in almost all disputes, it is possible to locate sources to support both sides of the argument, which sends us 'back to square one' as far as the whole dispute-resolution process is concerned. The only solution I can see is to edit all the disputed articles to add something along the lines of: Some authorities consider Armenia an Asian country, due to its geographical position and the historical relationship of Armenians to Asian peoples. However, Armenia is part of the Council of Europe, and is now considered part of Europe for some purposes. Armenians themselves disagree about whether their country is Asian or European. Do you agree with this as an acceptable form of phrasing? Walton monarchist89 10:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The previous phrasing of the article was fine. I do not support Caligvula's self-gratifying effort to change the Armenia article to reflect his racial/cultural sensibilities. The quote you are proposing is simply insulting, as I do not see the need to classify Armenia as purely European or purely Asian when the country is geographically and culturally related to both areas. Leave the article as it is, Caligvula is the only one who has problems with it, because he is "offended" by the idea that Armenians could somehow be related to his own racial/cultural background. -- Augustgrahl 14:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep your tone civil. Just because an opinion is in the minority does not mean it is wrong. Work it out focusing on content, and do NOT attack the editor as you just did again. --InShaneee 16:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Caligvla is trying to impose his view only upon the article, aka replace all opinions with his own. His intention is to remove references to Armenia being a European country, and has given the reason that he is "offended" by the notion. This is not proper Wikipedia conduct. I believe that the Armenian Genocide occurred, this does not give me the right to go to the article about the Armenian Genocide and remove all references to the position that it did not happen, and then appeal to higher authorities or mediators when my edits are consistently removed. Caligvula himself has said that he is offended by the idea of Armenians being Europeans, so I don't see how merely stating his own self-described behavior is a personal attack.

He has said, and I quote verbatim, "It is an offensive Point of View to include Armenia on the European continent, Armenia is located in Asia. How would you feel if some stranger stuck their picture in your family photo book?" [1]. How would you feel if somebody said they would be offended to be racially associated with you? Is this not racism? Also, how do you explain these edits that he made to characterize Armenians as hairy, unibrowed murderers? [2],[3],[4] -- Augustgrahl 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about you. If he does something inappropriate, it will be dealt with on its own. It does not give you a free ride to start trolling. --InShaneee 18:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware that I could troll my own talk page. That's a personal attack within itself. -- Augustgrahl 18:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You can be a troll anywhere on the site, hence the warning. --InShaneee 04:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Augustgrahl. Although I understand your frustration, it is definately important to keep a cool head in situations like these. While I don't really agree with InShaneee on this matter either, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Cheers, Khoikhoi 09:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit that I may not have used the best tone when speaking of Caligvula's actions, but I still believe it was relevant to point out that he has done many things that have been seen by members of the Wikipedia community as displaying a racist attitude against the Armenian people, and his own user page for some time featured a comment dispariging of Armenia, by putting it first on the list of country's he will "never visit." I don't understand InShaneee's accusations, as I don't see how I could troll my own talk page. Why would I try to disrupt my own page? It doesn't make sense. -- Augustgrahl 15:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Augustgrahl, I apologise for inadvertently starting this disagreement, and did not mean to be insulting in any way. I'm only trying to resolve this matter with mutual agreement on both sides, which is my job as an advocate. Looking at the discussion on my talk page, it seems that you and Caligvla both concede the following sentence to be a fair compromise: Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Transcaucasus. Will you therefore consent to this sentence replacing the following sentence in the Armenia article: Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe. Please remember that I'm not trying to promote anyone's POV. I have no personal connection to Armenia, nor do I have an opinion on this issue; I'm just trying to establish a constructive consensus to make Wikipedia better and more accurate. That's my job. Walton monarchist89 17.16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a fair compromise, although I would also include the sentence about Armenia being a transcontinental nation. -- Augustgrahl 21:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for being reasonable about this, and thank you for remaining civil throughout this dispute, unlike some other users. I will ask User:The Myotis and User:Tekleni, also parties in this dispute, if they will accept this compromise as well. User:Eupator appears to be taking a rather more aggressive stance in relation to this issue, and has even deleted comments from my talk page without my permission. Walton monarchist89 09:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've now opened a straw poll on my talk page concerning the proposed change. Please add your comments. Walton monarchist89 09:11, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As you can see, the straw poll has provoked equally strong support and opposition for the proposed changes. It's useful, if only to show that there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate - but it sends us back to square one, in that the opposition from User:Eupator, User:The Myotis and User:Hectorian is strong enough that I don't have a mandate to make the changes. As such, having failed to find a compromise of my own, I'm now inviting everyone else to suggest one. We need to find a way of saying, in a way that no one finds offensive, that Armenia is both in Asia and in Europe and that the domestic political situation reflects links with both continents. Any ideas would be welcomed. Walton monarchist89 12:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RfC opening on Armenia

Given the complete deadlock on this issue, and the failure of the strawpoll, I think the time has come to take the dispute-resolution process to the next level by opening a request for comment. This will open the debate up to the whole Wikipedia community, and hopefully generate, if not consensus, then at least a majority view. I will invite all users involved in this issue to contribute to the RfC, which can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. I realise that you may now be a bit bored with having to explain your views again and again on different pages, but as an advocate I think this is the only way to finally end this dispute. Walton monarchist89 09:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closure of Armenia strawpoll

NB This poll has now closed, it being Friday 10th November and about 10.30am where I live. The numbers are as follows:

• Support 6 (although User:Hamparzoum's existence has been disputed by User:Tekleni.
• Neutral 1.
• Oppose 10.

As such, no mandate has appeared for making the requested changes to the article. As previously advertised, Caligvla and I are taking a break from this dispute for a week. After this, the case may be taken to the mediation cabal, although I hope to avoid this eventuality. Walton monarchist89 10:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

(to Augustgrahl) Yeah, I guess so. This whole conflict is starting to stop people from getting actual work done here. He appears to have gone on a one-week break, so let's see what happens... Khoikhoi 02:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenia

It seems to have stopped now...or has it? Khoikhoi 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

For now it seems to have stopped, although I'd keep an eye on it. -- Augustgrahl 14:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)