Talk:Augusto Pinochet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Portal:Biography
 Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.
  1. Archive 1
  2. Archive 2
  3. Archive 3
  4. Archive 4
  5. Archive 5
  6. Archive 6
  7. Archive 7

Contents

[edit] Heart attack

link "AUGUSTO PINOCHET has been given the last rites after a massive heart attack left the former Chilean strongman clinging to life.


“His fate is in the hands of God and his doctors,” the former dictator’s son Marco Antonio Pinochet Hiriart said yesterday as his father remained conscious and in a stable condition.

Juan Ignacio Vergara, a doctor treating the retired general, said 91-year-old Pinochet’s life was “in danger”. State television later reported that doctors had decided to carry out heart bypass surgery."

someone should add a mention of this in the article and add the 'current event' tag.

Hands of God??? What God has to do with such a {censored]? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.19.133.25 (talk) 02:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
Kali? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.83.171.138 (talk) 22:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I'm Catholic, and I suppose I should hope that God forgave Gen. Pinochet, despite the bad things he did. I guess none of us believers will ever know. The man caused so much pain though, on so many innocent people simply because they were not right wing. So sad to have lived his life that way.

[edit] Pinochet's 91st birthday statement to the World

Why did Pinochet take full responsibility for his actions now at 91, its as if his offsprings made him write that so as to absolve all of them of their complicity in his crimes. What about that 3cubic meters of gold that was supposedly deposited in Hong Kong? How many tons of Gold did Pinochet deposit there? What was he trying to do? What is this guy doing writing statements now at 91 wasn't he declared unfit to stand trial about 6 years; didn't he have dementia.

[edit] London, England, The United Kingdom

Come on, this just looks silly: "London, England, the United Kingdom" Apologies to Americans who dont know where London and/or England are, but can we not just say "London"? It's not like it's ambiguous as to what it could be referring to. Praetonia 08:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] England.

Does anyone have cites for where Pinochet was held in the UK, and the clinic he attended? Rich Farmbrough 14:27 6 May 2006 (UTC).

he spent a lot of time in a rented mansion somehwere in the home counties, SqueakBox 17:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eliminating Information in Order to Create Consensus

The latests edits, made by CieloEstrellado eliminating huge swathes of pertinent information about the Pinochet dictatorship, are clearly passive POV edits.

CieloEstrellado has systematically eliminated any and all statements of fact about the Pinochet Dictatorship that s/he considers either positive of the regime, non-negative of the regime, or which cast any negative light on the preceding regime, that of Salvador Allende.

Note that CieloEstrellado's edits have cut out unindisputed statements of fact, not opinion. For instance, the AFP private pension fund system in fact was implemented by the Pinochet dictatorship, it is in effect today, was considered the model for Social Security reform in the US, and is widely considered to have been the most important measure in terms of increasing the Chilean capital markets, minimizing foreign debt and creating the conditions of economic growth that have held over the past twenty years.

This issue — used here only as an example to show the scope of CieloEstrellado's cuts — is undisputed fact, key to understanding the Pinochet dictatorship, and worthy of future development. I had planned on creating an article specifically devoted to the AFP pension system, which is a topic not only worthy of knowing, but vital, considering the havoc currently involving the US Social Security system. Yet CieloEstrellado is wont to cut it, for reason best known to herself or himself.

Pinochet clearly raises tremendous passions. However, by narrowing and eliminating facts so as to paint as dark a picture of the Pinochet dictatorship as possible, CieloEstrellado is doing THE supreme disserviceto the Wikipedia community — creating consensus by eliminating information.

One may not like the Devil, one may in fact hate him — but the Devil still has to get his due. And one has to know all facets of the Devil, however distasteful, in order to fully understand him.

I invite members of the community to compare the last versions of the Pinochet article and discuss it on this page.

--MILH 12:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The AFP system has been so successful in Chile, that the first thing president Bachelet has done is to set up a commission to reform it. You edits are so lacking of any neutrality that it is almost impossible to rescue anything worthwhile out of them. It really is frustrating to remove everything you have contributed because of this reason. I advise that you don't make such sweeping edits to this article. As you can see from the Talk archives it has been very difficult to achieve some sort of concensus for the current version of the article. Please try making smaller edits so it is easier to de-POV them. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


I hate it when people straddle fences when discussing history. Pinochet KIDNAPPED AND KILLED THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. If you want to discuss Pinochet's place in world systems theory then that's fine. You can use Adam Smith and Sam Huntington and I'll use Gramsci and Wallerstein. However, don't ever attempt to sugarcoat Pinochet's deeds and couch it in this bullshit "I'm just telling it like it is" attitude. History is political and will always be political, if you can't handle it then get a new profession. I don't know where you studied, but where I come from there is no straddling of fences... ---Matt R.

It is true that Pinochet killed some 3.000 people and tortured many others but what must be considered is that a very big part of the Chilean society supported him. Maybe instead of blaming just one man we should blame half a country, but then what's the point of doing that? The fact that Pinochet killed all these people doesn't mean that everything he did was bad. His dictatorship also brought stability to a country which, according to some, was on the verge of experiencing a leftist revolution. Things are just not black or white. ---Santiago Aldecoa Avellaneda, San Sebastián, Spain

Absolutely right. If we buy into the arguments of either side we merely display POV, our duty as an encyclopedia is to remain neutral given Pinochet is far from universally hated, SqueakBox 21:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Let's the fact be presented. Just the facts. Your hatress is understandable but are not facts. Pinochet was not a devil but a man who took control of a country unwillingly under special circunstances. One should be afraid that what happened to Pinochet (became a dictator) can again happen to many men driven by hate and fear. Please show that one can learn, understand from the errors of the others. Please learn... Let's the facts show us the way. (Thucydides100 17:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Edit War

Unfortunately, and irrespective of my best efforts at arriving at a modus vivendi, CieloEstrellado and I are involved in an edit war.

From my point of view, these are the issues at stake:

  1. Objecting to information because it does not square with one's preconceptions.
  2. Eliminating facts in order to passively cement a particular POV.
  3. Calling someone's facts biased when they are accurate.
  4. Calling someone's conclusions biased even when they are arrived at by sound logic, and are deduced or inferred from undisputed fact.

The Pinochet article has been improved in terms of providing greater context, more information, and better organization. Yet CieloEstrellado has repeatedly blanket reverted it.

It is unfortunate that Allende commited suicide. But though that fact is unfortunate, it is undisputed. To call something disputed — or to outright negate it — when it is known to be true by all concerned, is morally wrong. This goes not only for the Allende suicide issue, but for every other fact that CielEstrellado so cavalierly negates, reverts and discounts as "biased" just because he doesn't like it.

I have researched CieloEstrellado's attitude in other articles: He has a habit of flagging things he doesn't like, or eliminating undisputed facts he doesn't happen to agree with. See the history pages of HIV, Machuca, Juntas de Abastecimientos y Precios or Michelle Bachelet to see what I mean. The Bachelet example is the most egregious case — deleting the fact that Bachelet speaks some Russian and reads Cyrillic, and calling such information "irrelevant for an encyclopedia article" (see his edit summary for his deletion and this statement).

I for one will not accept the elimination of information in order to advance a POV. Clearly users such as CieloEstrella are worse than vandals: Vandals are just an annoyance. Eliminating information to advance an agenda is an attack on us all.

--MILH 03:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't have a agenda too??? It seems like you have, and with a stronger bias than StarrySky... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.19.133.25 (talk) 02:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Presidency table

In the final table he is named president from 1974 to 1990. That's false, first, there is still controversy in the country and history books about the 1980 plebiscite validity. Well, I don't want to enter in a edit war. So for the supporters, who claims him president, if you want to keep that table it must say from 1980 to 1990, before that he was dictator, after that... also, but with another title. I'm going to edit it keeping the president table, but from 1980.

NOt true. He had the "President" tittle before the constitution (NOT sure, but I think that it was in 1976)

[edit] Cocaine Business

The latest news is that Pinochet has been accused of dealing with black cocaine, also known as Russian cocain, which is difficult to detect. Apearently the origin's of his secret fortune are in the drug trade as was reported by The New York Times: Former Aide Says Pinochet and a Son Dealt in Drugs.--tequendamia 10:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

That link is not working, but try this one: [1]

By the way the famous gold never existed see what the HKB has to say about it. But I do believe that he stole the Chritsmas once. Didn't He?

[edit] Vatican not Pope urged Pinochet release

This article names John Paul II as urging the release of Pinochet, however it was a senior vatican official not the pope. BBC article--155.198.63.111 17:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The Vatican can't make such annoucements, without the Pope's consent. The senior official was acting on the Pope instructions. GoodDay 14:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That is very ironic, too, because Pope John Paul II and Gen. Pinochet did not exactly see eye to eye.

[edit] Sweeping the CoD's Resolution under the rug

Mingus ah um, if you had wanted to discuss something in Talk and actually had a credible reason for removing reference to the CoD Resolution, you might have taken it upon yourself to get in the first word rather than issuing threats in article comments. -- I earnestly await your logical explanation as to why a few sentences detailing a stage-setting landmark event are not appropriate to a Wiki article concerning a (in)famous person who expediently capitalized upon said event.--01:25, 20 July 2006 Mike18xx

Mike, I stated early on that I had no problem with this paragraph being reinstated in another section of the article, but that it did not belong as the second paragraph of a biography. Introductions are supposed to be concise. You know that... We all know that. Instead of focusing on the fact that Pinochet violated the Consititution of Chile with his violent (you tried to play that down too) coup, you are attempting to somehow justify his actions by referencing a failed resolution (we've been over this, it failed in the senate) which had nothing to do with Pinochet or his decision to break the law and instill a rightwing totalitarian government. Wiki is a collaboration, and, yes, sometimes you do have to negotiate over how an article should be properly built. Both suggestions (either reinstate the article somewhere or discuss here) were merely intended to promote a democratic atmosphere. Please abandon your autocratic additude towards wiki and try to work toward a consensus. --(Mingus ah um 07:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC))
Your earnest obsession over Pinochet's "violation(s) of the Constitution of Chile", "violen(ce)" and "totalitarianism" stand in stark contrast to your indifference to the Chilean Legislature's condemnation of Allende for precisely those things. The Resolution belongs exactly where I've placed it, because regardless of it failing to pass Allende's stuffed Senate (an event I gather the curious impression that you're pleased to equate with an exoneration of Allende), its overwhelming passage in the CoD was a pivotal moment in Chilean history with the Army capitalizing upon it within weeks as implored to. Regards "autocracy" and "consensus" on Wiki: (1) You were the one who threatened to run off crying to the moderators; (2) you and I are the only two people talking right now; and (3), Regardless of the structure of Wiki, I intensely dislike the assumption that history must properly be subject to a vote of the ignorant then buried in "fine print" when it is begrudgingly choked down with a held nose -- and will never entertain such arguments to that regard as logical rejoinders. Lastly, (4) Allende was a Leninist crumb who turned the MIR loose to bully and murder the countryside, and you should get over it.--Mike18xx 09:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Mike, I have never encountered an history (that is, a secondary source published in English--the only language I can read quickly and comfortably) which has argued that Allende was the source of any violence during his short rule. If you have a single source (which falls into both of these categories, i.e., English and secondary) to recommend, I would be interested to know the title and author. Indeed, it is well known that Allende's Marxists were the most conservative of the broad MIR lead leftist coallition; the socialist and anarchist unions were allegedly involvedin local level violence after they (the socialists and the anarchists) expropriated private land/factories ahead of schedule (without Allende's directive or consent). However, this violence would have been essentially defensive, for the expropriations took place peacefully, if only for the fact that they were not considered imminent by the land owners themselves. On the other hand, over three thousand people dissapeared in the first decade of Pinochet's rule, over a thousand of them immediately after the coup. Your attempts to equate Pinochet and Allende are simply baffling.
Your believe that the resolutions "overwhelming passage in the CoD was a pivotal moment in Chilean history with the Army capitalizing upon it within weeks as implored to" ignores the fact that René Schneider's (the Commander in Chief of the Chilean army) virulent oppositon to military coups would have stopped any rebellion if the US endorsed and financed assassination had not allowed a right wing thug like Pinochet to breed insurrection within the army's ranks. You and I both know that contemporary histories state that the two monumental events of the age, the two which destroyed a democracy, were the assassination of the Commander in Chief of of the Chilean army and the violation of the Constitution by a would-be Caudillo, not a resolution which failed to make its way through half of the nation's legislative body.
Regarding your four points:
"(1) You were the one who threatened to run off crying to the moderators;" Of course I did; the moderators exist to keep wiki healthy and functioning; at times, this means keeping the peace. Knowing your wiki rep., it is clear that you have knocked heads with a moderator or two in your day.
"(2) you and I are the only two people talking right now;" We're the only people talking, but there is another user reverting your edits on the Allende page...
"3), Regardless of the structure of Wiki, I intensely dislike the assumption that history must properly be subject to a vote of the ignorant then buried in "fine print" when it is begrudgingly choked down with a held nose -- and will never entertain such arguments to that regard as logical rejoinders." If you were as superior an historian as you clearly believe yourself to be, you wouldn't waste your time on an open source form of media. Drop the elitist shtick. If you want to play on wiki, you have to deal with people who actually disagree with you. If you do not want to do that... Get off the internet and write a book.
(4) Allende was a Leninist crumb who turned the MIR loose to bully and murder the countryside, and you should get over it. Actually, no. 1) He was not a Leninist; he pursued Marxism democratically; 2) he was not a crumb, he was democratically elected; 3) he never "turned the MIR loose," and he never endorsed or advocated bullying or murder.
I don't care how long you are willing to dedicate to this attempt to recast history; at some point, you will give up and another individual will revert your edit (if only to reinstate it in the body of the article, as I have repeatedly suggested). --(Mingus ah um 20:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC))
Mingus: I have never encountered an history (that is, a secondary source published in English--the only language I can read quickly and comfortably) which has argued that Allende was the source of any violence during his short rule.
-- That wouldn't surprise me in the least, especially given that most published material on the subject written in English is the product of American socialist academics. (E.g., movie critic Roger Ebert is still under the impression that the CIA murdered Allende, a tidbit he imparted in email to me last year after I critiqued his moronic review of the propaganda film "The Motorcycle Diaries".) Nevertheless, cyberspace is overflowing with information now, and you'd do well to brush up. You may even encounter wonderful quotations like this one: "Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President!" -- Salvadore Allende. Say, I really ought to find room in his Wiki entry for that...whaddya you think? ;-) --Mike18xx 20:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry? There are plenty of conservative critics of leftist politics in Latin America; just look at the volume of material which has been produced to challenge the Sandinistas, the Zapitistas and Chavez's Bolivarian revolution. If you truly believe that "most published material on the subject written in English is the product of American socialist academics" (emphasis mine), than you clearly have spent too much time watching Fox news and too little time on an actual campus. The History department, is, by and large, the second most conservative social science department on a public school campus (far to the right of Anthropology, Sociology, Political Science, International Studies, etc, etc), and, I hate to break it to you, but there are less socialists in America than there are in any other Western nation. If such a small cadre of ideologues are able to dominate the discussion, what does that say about the rest of the English speaking world? Furthermore, what does Roger Ebert have to do with anything!?!? The man sits on his ass all day and watches films; why on earth is he your reference point? Furthermore, do you really suggest that I abandon histories which cite the primary sources that they reference and trust the bloody internet? Is your quote ("Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President!" -- Salvadore Allende.) intended to be controversial? Would anyone remotely familiar with Latin American politics be shocked to hear such a statement from a politician who was: a) democratically elected; and b) keenly aware that, as the conservative face of the left, the more radical factions of the MIR lead coallition (the socialists, the anarchists) would take action into their own hands if he was denied the office he legally won? Your quote is not just irrelevant, it is certifiably banal.
Let's leave it to posterity to judge whether or not a threat of civil war and terrorism issued by the candidate who let the MIR do all the dirty work for him once elected is in fact "irrelevant" and "banal".--Mike18xx 06:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is it so hard for you to work with other contributors?--(Mingus ah um 21:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC))
"Work" is just your euphemism for "concede".--Mike18xx 06:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copper

President Allende's economic policy had involved nationalizations of many key companies, notably U.S.-owned copper mines. This had been a significant reason behind the United States opposition to Allende's reformist socialist government, in addition to his establishing diplomatic relations and cooperation agreements with Cuba and the Soviet Union. Much of the internal opposition to Allende's policies came from business sector, and recently-released U.S. government documents confirm that the U.S. funded the lorry drivers' strike, that had exacerbated the already chaotic economic situation prior to the coup.

Did Pinochet actually "denationalize" the copper mines to U.S. companies? If so, it should be clarified, if not then this seems unrelated to Pinochet's economic policies and should be removed from that section. CJK 15:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. Vast, heaping mounds of all these Chile-related entries are just desperate excuses to indulge in Marxist class-warfare propaganda (eg., claiming the "business sector" constituted "much" of Allende's oppostion, as opposed to, one wonders, the Chamber of Deputes asking the military to kick him in the nads) and yammer on about the US & CIA (and basically bloat out the piece in the hope that the few sentences mentioning the CoD Resolution are overlooked).--Mike18xx 10:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Double spaces?

This edit summary says that the article is filled with double spaces. I've scanned through the article using my eyes and a software tool and didn't find any- has anyone found any of these double spaces? Captainktainer * Talk 10:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I nailed out several just in one paragraph I was working on. I submit it's possible those were the only in the entire article, in which case it's a fluke of coincidence.--Mike18xx 11:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The header/ intro is too long

The header/ intro is too long, this reduces usability, the table of contents buried deep into the article. I suggest reorganizing so that the table of contents is above the fold. Most of the contents should be moved into different sections of the article.

Additionally the economic transformation of Chile from one of Latin America's poorest countries to one of it's richest (GDP-PPP per capita), during his rule deserves a mention.

Also for an article about such an important and controvertial historical figure, it is stangely lacking sources.VirafPatel 05:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Go for it, baby; I hate doing all the work around here! ;-P --Mike18xx 09:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits by POV-pushing anon

This edit broke a reference; I'm going to have to revert and try to incorporate whatever is not blatant POV-pushing from the anon's edits.Captainktainer * Talk 17:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article quality and cleanup

This article is generally pretty bad. Because of a very strong desire to crucify Pinochet within this article it has become long and bloated. A lot of the material should be moved to separate articles. For instance the article on the election is way too detailed and should just be put in a separate article. A lot of the article consists of unfounded opinions which are not attributed to anyone e.g. 1) Pinochet coup was done so he could implement neoliberal reforms, 2) All doubts about human right abuses have been stilled due to detailed reports etc. These types of things are stated in such a way that they have become opinions. Opinions cannot be original in an encyclopedia. They must be attributed to someone.

Ok I think Melromero has basically fixed this article up. It is very nice now. Thanks Melromero!

[edit] Lies About "Expanded Economy"

Pinochet did not a thing for the economy. Chile already had good living standards relative to other Latin American countries before 1973. Just go to undp.org to look at Chilean (and other) statistics. Pinochet policies resulted in massive impoverishment. By 1987, 40% of Chilean population lived in poverty. Economic growth in Pinochet years was also mediocre (alternating periods of strong growth with the devastating recession of early 80´s). Chile had the second worse levels of unequality in LA (first is Brazil). Much of the gains in Human development actually happened AFTER Pinochet, under the coalition of Christian democrats and socialists (this was really a period of strong growth and improvement in living conditions, althought unequality remained untouched). On the other hand, it could be said that Pinochet´s economic policies were kept by those parties. Nowadays, Chile still is growing, but at relatively small rates, while unemployment is growing and the absence of a public social security system threatens the future of many people (social security in Chile was privatized, and has universal coverage, but only 50% of the population is adding money to their individual accounts.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-chichile.htm

Shouldn't the reference to "disastrous" unemployment be eliminated nonetheless? Isn't that an inherently POV term in that regard? I'm no fan of Pinochet in that I believe that an objective study of his time in office shows plenty of wrongdoing, but doesn't his record nonetheless need to be described in as neutral of a langauge as possible? Rlquall 15:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted text

In this edit [2] by anonymous user 200.27.31.129 (talk • contribs), much text was deleted. Maybe it should be reverted. Vints 07:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Another text problem is in the section about the plebiscite. Whoever wrote this keeps changing between calling it a plebiscite and a referendum. It's either one or the other, it can't be both. Some one should change it so it doesn't wrongly keep changing between the two. Owen214 23:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potential Reversion

IMO this article has deteriorated very significantly in the last six months. I remember reading it early this year and getting a lot of good content out of it. Now there is just very little left; it's like the skeleton of a good article.

I'd like to revert to the way the page was six months back and see if we can't work from that basis, because right now this article is really in terrible shape and tweaks aren't what is necessary.

Thoughts? --WillMagic 11:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Augusto"

The correct IPA representation of the "au" of Augusto in Spanish is "aʊ" not "aw" or "a". This should be rectified. AussieBoy 08:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that his last name is pronounced "pee-no-CHETT", and not "pee-no-SHAY" as is commonly believed should be noted.

[edit] School of the Americas/WHISC

There is evidence of Pinochet's spending time at the school of the America's. Many who oppose the school cite his involvement as a reason to be against the school. I believe therefore that something should be mentioned.----georgiew

[edit] Clogs popped

BBC News are reporting his death. I suggest the article is locked down until it's confirmed. Wikipedia isn't a news service and there will be loads of idiots swarming all over this page trying to have it updated as soon as possible, which in my experience results in a terrible mess of an article. On another matter, why does the first footnote take the reader to information about pronunciation that claims his name is pronounced /pino'ʧεt/ or /pino'ʧε/, only to follow it immediately with "i.e. 'Pih-noh-CHET' is correct rather than the common mispronunciation 'Pih-noh-SHAY'." This is contradictory. Is the /pino'ʧε/ pronunciation acceptable or not? 89.240.193.45 17:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


There is a link to that effect in the article at the moment, only problem is that it's in spanish. Anyone got an english language link we can replace it with. --Charlesknight 17:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Not yet; the English-language sources are still catching up.Mackensen (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SProtect

Please sprotect. This is going to be chaotic. ☆ CieloEstrellado 18:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It has already been protected. I am not sure we should protect as a preventive measure for future changes when nothing serious has happened in the near past, so it may be unprotected soon. Also, note that the article is in the Main Page right now, which would be a reason for unprotecting (to invite new users to edit here). -- ReyBrujo 18:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Augusto Pinochet official portrait in Commons

Please place that image in Commons to avoid the other wikipedia to each upload it. thx. 216.86.113.16 19:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I have just removed abusive trash from "Early Career" section. If such edits occur more often. IMO this page should be locked to prevent it.--Volphy 21:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course it should, but sadly that is not the Wikipedia way. This community would rather have its most viewed articles messed about with by multiple editors working at odds with each other and submitting changes seconds apart while vandalism and POV-pushing slips under the radar. Why the article can't be locked for a few days while a few knowledgeable editors work in collaboration to produce something of genuine value which can go live after a slight delay I don't understand. There is no need for this encyclopaedia to turn itself into a poor parody of a 24-hour news channel doing an anything goes phone-in slot. Wikipedia is growing much faster than it is maturing. 89.240.193.45 22:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It should absolutely not be locked, now is the time when people want to edit and to prevent them is to weaken the article and wikipedia as a whole, SqueakBox 23:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This article really should be locked for several days until media frenzy about Pinochet's death washes out a bit. In the meantime it can be cleared out and stabilized a bit. It's almost impossible to track good edits if there are four bad edits and one good and still unsourced. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pethr (talk • contribs) 04:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Arrest and traial

The lack of any info about this is POV and I have thus added the tag, we need to treat this issue here, SqueakBox 23:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

See Augusto Pinochet#Arrest and trial --Yakoo 23:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dictator

We dont generally call anyone a dictator here and Pinochet is no different. Why remove the info about his arrest from the opening? And no, that article is not an acceptabl;e alternative, we must treat it somewhat here, SqueakBox 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It is unacceptable that the introduction notes him as "a general and President of Chile", later "President of the Republic", with no mentioning of his dictatorship, countless human rights abuses and mass murder committed under his regime. These facts, above else, define the man and his legacy. I am stunned to find an article like this on Wikipedia. 81.1.99.200 01:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

See my above comment, it ius unacceptable to just reflect the views of the anti Pinochet side in the debate, and what is undeniable is that here are 2 sides to this argument. see WP:NPOV SqueakBox 01:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want to call him a dictator in Wikipedia, then you should call scumbags like Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez dictators as well in their respective Wikipedia pages. Lenineleal 05:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This man is being called a dictator by newspapers, so why is Wikipedia calling him a president? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/11/world/americas/11pinochet.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin http://www.nydailynews.com/front/covers/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/10/AR2006121000302.html

This is to name of a few. These guy was in fact a dictator - this has nothing to do with point of view. It is fact. He was not elected. He came to power through a coup.

Wikipedia itself says that "Dictator was the title of a magistrate in ancient Rome appointed by the Senate to rule the state in times of emergency." Isn´t this an accurate description of what Pinochet was after Allende was expelled from the government? Please watch the documentary "The Battle of Chile" for more info.

Wikipedia's definition of "dictator" seems to preclude the term's use in any situation but the description of ancient Rome. As I read it, Wikipedia's "dictator" can never take power in countries that do not have a "Senate", perhaps either because the word doesn't exist in the language of the country, or perhaps because they have a unicameral legislative body. <begin sarcasm>"I don't have to worry about living in 1920s Germany. A dictatorship can never occur here because we have a Reichstag and not a Senate."<end sarcasm> I refer to the very well-sourced and therefore in my opinion also very authoritative (not, however, on pronunciation) full version of the Oxford English Dictionary which lists as its primary definition as 1. A ruler or governor whose word is law; an absolute ruler of a state. a. orig. The appellation of a chief magistrate invested with absolute authority, elected in seasons of emergency by the Romans, and by other Italian states. b. A person exercising similar authority in a mediæval or modern state; esp. one who attains to such a position in a republic. By this definition: Castro is a Dictator, So was Hitler, and Pinochet and Mao and Saddam Hussein and so is Kim Jong-Il. Hugo Chávez is a populist and also in my opinion not doing very well for his country, but he was elected and re-elected. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also doesn't likely fit the definition in what is probably more properly termed an oligarchy--Damon Erickson

The reason we dont use dictator is it is not impartial and especially in the case of someone like Pinochet who has supporters as well as detractors. it is wrong to side with either faction, and calling him a dictator would be to side with the anti pinochet faction, SqueakBox 17:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I know that you have probably been through this a million times, but by not mentioning the facts of the style of Chile's government during the 17 years of the regime, i.e. calling a spade a spade and a dictatorship a dictatorship, aren't you siding with one of the factions, and in this case, the one that does not have either the truth or the English language on its side? Would a dictatorship by any other name smell as sour? 200.113.151.46 20:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Damon Erickson

Our duty as an encyclopedia is to remain impartial, and given we dont call Hitler a dictator or fidel a dictator it would clearly be siding with the opponent of Pinochet to label him with this. Your argument is essntially if you are not for us you are against us, which I dont at all agree with. We have to remain neutral, and as someone who has never been to Chile but lives in a country not my own I have learnt the importance of that respect and neutrality first hand, SqueakBox 03:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank You

Don't know if I can do this on this page but I would like to thank the administrator for doing a good job being impartial. Such as by not labelling Pinochet as a dictator but a head of military junta. If left wing strongmen like Castro are not labelled dictators than neither should right wing strongmen. Previously I noticed this trend (which was biased) in wikipedia but now it seems to have improved.

Comment: According to the Wikipedia definition of a dictator, Fidel Castro shouldn´t be called so because he wasn´t appointed by the senate or other government institution to take the place of head of state during a crisis. He actually took over the government and dissolved its institutions.

I went to the dictator page and Castro is listed as a benevolent dictator. Most dictators come to power due to putches and revolutions. Saddam Hussein came to power in this way and everyone calls him a dictator. So are Pinochet and Castro. But since the word, 'dictator' is so taboo better not to label anyone a dictator rather than just labeling right wing strongmen as such.

[edit] Freemason?

The article claims that Pinochet was a Freemason. As I remember, he was a practicing Catholic, which makes Masonic affiliation unlikely, IMO. Can anybody provide a source? David Cannon 23:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Does someone want to pare down the external links section? Drcwright 04:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please Observe Proper Flag Etiquette in Articles

Flag Etiquette:

A flag is flown on a STAFF when on land.

A flag is flown on a MAST when on a ship.

When a flag is lowered in mourning on land, it is flown at HALF STAFF.

When a flag is lowered in mourning on a ship, it is flown at HALF MAST.


Thank you . . .

[edit] Neutrality of Library Of Congress Country Report

This report: [3] is cited as a source. I question whether it is neutral. Can anyone with a better knowledge of the commissioning and authorship processes of such reports comment on whether it can be considered objective? I fully appreciate that given the subject matter, it may be near impossible to achieve neutrality. DavidFarmbrough 12:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freemason

According to this Pinochet was a member of a freemason logia (for a very short time)--Dolichocephalus 12:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange sentence

"Some political scientists have ascribed the relative bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn." Seems to contraict itself. Rich Farmbrough, 13:48 11 December 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Pronunciation of Pinochet

^ Pronunciation (IPA): /aw'gusto/ or a'gusto/, /pino'ʧεt/ or /pino'ʧε/. (i.e. "Pih-noh-CHET" is correct rather than the common mispronunciation "Pih-noh-SHAY").

On NPR this morning they played a recording of Pinochet's supporters singing where they were pronouncing it Pih-noh-SHAY. Also, the reporter specifically talked about the pronouciation and said that most everyone in Chile says Pih-noh-SHAY and that only English speakers say Pih-nih-CHET. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.134.136.5 (talk) 16:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Can we have a written source for that. The English mispronunciation of Pinochet is one of the first things I learnt in Spanish (equal to the mispronunciation of Chavez) and I have never heard any Spanish speakers pronounce it in the French way, either with Pinochet or Chavez, and it strikes me as English imperialism/ignorance, not knowing the difference between Spanish and French, SqueakBox 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

    • Oh please, get a life. ^^^^What the heck does this have to do with anything? So easy to blame the English/French Imperialism for everything? People ahev different wasy of pronouncing things that are the same, its the way of humans, not "ignorance". My girlfriend is from Peru and she pronounces it "Pinochè" Remember they have Chilean TV in Peru. 74.101.223.160 04:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we get a written source for Pih-noh-CHET? If not, the unsourced assertation that Pih-noh-CHET should be deleted.

Absolutely not, it is the French pronunciation that needs a written source. Pih-noh-CHET merely follows Spanish pronunciation rules and thus doesnt need sourcing. Given that sh doesnt exist in Spanish and that according to Spanish written rules the lasty bit would be pronounced Pinochey it is clearly for those who argue the Spanish in Chile ignore the basic rules of pronunciation who need to source their claims, SqueakBox 19:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice. You need no source because you know you are right despite a resounding lack of evidence. Pinochet is a French surname. Surely you wouldn't default the pronounciation of all words to that of the country they are used in despite their origin? Or do I need to tell my friend with the surname Pimont to start pronouncing the "nt" in his name since he lives in America? I invite you to listen to the NPR story at: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6607666. In particular pay attention to the Chilean chant at 0:17 to 0:22 and the discussion from 2:00 - 2:15 and note that Nathan Crooks actually lives in Chile and presumably knows much better that you how the Chileans pronunce the word.

Please sign your comments with ~~~~ oir thety are in danger of being ignored, thanks, SqueakBox 20:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Why assume I dont live there? I will listen this evening (working right now) and feedback, I will also look for an internet radio/tv for the pronunciation in the non french style, SqueakBox 20:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

another reference: http://www.slate.com/id/1001989/ looks like Pih-noh-CHAY is the actual pronounciation in Chile (which jibes with the audio chant). I assumed you are a British ex-pat living on the edge of a Caribbean city in Latin America. My point isn't that I know definitively how it is pronounced. My point is simply that the assertation that Pih-noh-CHET is correct has no factual basis. ~~~~ whatever that means. I find it humorous that someone would ignore rational thought simply because some trival rule wasn't followed.

(edit conflict) Yes okay, Chile isnt on the Caribbean coast, so fair assumption. I will lopok into this one, I know I pronounce my surname in the german nopt the English way so I cant discount what you say, SqueakBox 20:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I have lived in Chile for 11 years now and can vouch for the fact that the pronounciation is certainly Pih-noh-CHET. The "SHAY" pronounciation used in foreign non-Spanish media is often a source of amusement to Chileans. The name certainly has French origins but it is common for names that are passed down to the descendants of immigrants to adapt to the norms of the new homeland's language. GringoInChile 20:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting and certainly confirms what I have been told and what I hear myself in the admittedly non-Chilean Latin American tv (telesur, CNN etc), SqueakBox 20:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/how_to_say/ It seems within Chile there is a variation in pronounciation. Unless someone can find a reference as to how Augusto Pinochet pronounced it himself any reference what is the correct pronounciation is bogus. Perhaps a note that Pinochet is pronounced in various ways even within Chile is apppropriate.

Well you definitely cant say "Pinochet is pronounced in various ways even within Chile is apppropriate" without sourcing it. I didnt think much of the BBC article, I am afraid. Why she would think ch (originally an es leter) is difficult for Spanish speakers to pronounce and not Sh is beyond me, and while it is on a bbc site its clearly very bloggy and so doesnt merit being a source, SqueakBox 21:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Then simply remove the unsourced "(i.e. "Pih-noh-CHET" is correct rather than the common mispronunciation "Pih-noh-SHAY"

The common "English" mispronunciation you mean? SqueakBox 21:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No, footnote one should simply say ^ Pronunciation (IPA): /aw'gusto/ or a'gusto/, /pino'ʧεt/ or /pino'ʧε/"


I'm chilean. I think both IPA transcriptions are correct... Well, maybe I'd put a voiced velar fricative instead of an occlusive, so It should look like /aw'ɣusto/ or a'ɣusto/. It doesn't matter if the guy's name is french, Pinochet himself pronounced his name as the average chilean does.. Who are you to tell the man how to pronounce his own name?--Dolichocephalus 01:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


I don't know if this could work as a source... you can listen to the chilean reporter saying /a'ɣusto pino'ʧεt/ --Dolichocephalus 01:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the vast majority of the country says -Chet, but a large minority especially those with a great deal of formal education say -Shay. So both pronunctiations would be correct. TheDeadlyShoe 09:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

On tv last night (telesur and cnn) nobody said shay and everyone, Chilean or otherwise, said chet or che, so no problem sourcing that this is used, SqueakBox 17:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The assertation that CHET is the only correct pronounciation was challenged. No citiation has been made which supports it. Indeed, several sources have been cited to indicate that within Chile both CHET and CHAY are common. Please do not re-add the challenged information unless a source can be added. Bcostley 17:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Totally untrue. I just gave a source, ie telesur, it may not be a written source but it is a verifiable source. Even the daughter of Pinochet referred to him as Pinoche, and it looks to me like English language POV pushing to claim it was shay, SqueakBox 18:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a source making it clear how to and not to pronounce his name, SqueakBox 18:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

which is contridicted by the same source: [4] plus you just said his daughter uses CHAY, why assert that she is incorrect? To be very clear - I am not pushing to say shay is correct, only that CHET and CHAY are commonly used. Bcostley 18:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No I said his daughter said che not chay (chey in spanish to rhyme with ley or rey), the difference being there is not dipthong in che, so I argue that che and chet are correct but chey is incorrect (this dipthong is quite subtle but very clear), SqueakBox 18:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you put che, chet, and chey into IPA so we can be clear on what you mean by each? Bcostley 19:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm reluctant as I dont read IPA but it should be done, if you need more clarity from me as to exactly what I mean I am happy to do that, listening to Spanish is one thing, IPA is another, SqueakBox 19:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
chet is probably pretty clear. I suspect what you call che is what I've been calling chay which is why the IPA would help. But it isn't necessary as long as the footnote doesn't identify the chet as the only one correct pronounciation.

The most comprehensive source appears to be this one, and it includes a video of Pinochet pronouncing his own name. Apparently, there's dispute as to how it's pronounced in his family as well. And it's clear that no one form predominates in Chile. I'll change the footnote soon. --Xiaopo (Talk) 08:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "President de facto" or "dictator"?

Which of these is better, "President de facto" or "Dictator"? First, it was written "President de facto" but -afterwards- somebody changed it to "Dictator". Both mean basically the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.33.91.50 (talk) 10:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

That's easy. Try editing tha article on Fidel Castro and state that he is (or was?) a dictator. Such statement will be reversed in five (5) minutes at most. The truth is obviously secondary to personal beliefs. AVM 13:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The truth is we must remain impartial recognising both Fidel and Pinochet have detractors and supporters, SqueakBox 23:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

After the ratification of the 1980 constitution, he was the President of Chile. Before, we has just the president of the Junta. You can call it a dictator. Not after 1980, however.

Best to just call it the president of the Junta, SqueakBox 03:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

All major news agencies, AFP , AP (and White House spokesman), Reuters (CNN), call him dictator. Vints 07:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

What you mean is all major US news agencies which isnt the same thing at all when we are dealiong with a non US citizen but even if all news agencies everywhere were to call him that we still dont because we are an encyclopedia with a duty to fulfill WP:NPOV and not a news agency, SqueakBox 16:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"all major US news agencies"!? Reuters and AFP are not american news agencies. History books also call him dictator. You need to find a reliable source which explicitly says he was not a dictator.Vints 07:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The status of the Fidel Castro article is irrelevant to whether Pinochet should be described as a "dictator"; that should be taken up at Talk:Fidel Castro. List of military dictators by rank includes Pinochet; Military dictatorship includes Chile (1973-1990); List of dictators includes Pinochet (and Castro, incidentally).. Despite its frequent use as a polemical term, the word "dictator" does in fact have an NPOV definition, which clearly applies to Pinochet and his rule. Kwertii 04:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes but wikipedia policy on weasel words is relevant. "Dictator", like "terrorist", needs to be used carefully as in a case like this it will just provoke long and drawn out edit wars, SqueakBox 04:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I have long since noted my objections to the "weasel words" policy in great detail on that policy article's talk page, and many other editors agreed with me. He was not elected; he seized and maintained control through the use of military force; and there was no meaningful opposition permitted under his rule. His word was law. This is a perfectly NPOV instance of a "dictator" - and, as noted, many other Wikipedia articles describe him as such. Even Pinochet's supporters don't generally deny that he was a dictator, they rationalize his actions as being necessary to halt the spread of Communism. Kwertii 04:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
If describing someone as a "dictator" is forbidden, then List of dictators and List of military dictators by rank and all of the content of military dictatorship that makes reference to specific countries, among many other articles, need to be deleted in order to be consistent. I don't think you're seriously suggesting that that should be done. Kwertii 04:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I much prefer "He was not elected; he seized and maintained control through the use of military force; and there was no meaningful opposition permitted under his rule. His word was law." to Military dictator as it actually gives readers an idea of his rule (assuming you source it) whereas the oproblem with a word like dictator is that it is very vague and generalised, part of its weasel quality, and I personally would rather not call any modern or controversial politician a dictator on wikipedia, arguing that to an extent the weasel word policy is to prevent edit warring in ana open source encyclopedia, SqueakBox 04:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe you are seriously arguing that Pinochet was not a dictator. Even his supporters don't argue that point. Point me to one published source where an academic or other authority, even a major news agency, from anywhere in the world, makes the case that Pinochet was not a dictator. Kwertii 04:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Or rather, you aren't even arguing that Pinochet wasn't a dictator, since you support including the definition of a dictator attached to Pinochet's name. You are arguing that someone out there might argue that Pinochet was not a dictator, and so we have to accomodate them proactively. As I said, let's see one reputable source that argues that he was not a dictator (in contrast to the mountain of reputable sources, along with his own supporters, who don't dispute that point.) Kwertii 04:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a BBC (very leftist public service broadcasting) profile of Pinochet that doesnt mention the word dictator, so this is a reputable source that doesnt argue that he was a dictator. Clearly we dont have to find a source that argues he is not a dictator in order to not call him a dictator, sourcing and citing doesnt work like that and the fact that reliable sources are not all labelling him a dictator is in itself sufficient, SqueakBox 15:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

And here are some BBC articles that call him a dictator. With your way of arguing, if we find an article that doesn't explicitly mentions e.g. that he was Army Commander in Chief then we can't write in Wikipedia that he was Army Commander in Chief. Vints 18:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually I am arguing that we should stick to policy and not use weasel words like dictator. Kwertii implied that everyone is calling him a dictator and I gave that ref to show that this is not true. What I dont need to do is find an article saying he wasnt a dictator, that misunmderstands what sourcing is all about, SqueakBox 18:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Firstly, I didn't say "show me a reputable source that does not specifically use the word 'dictator' to describe Pinochet", I said "show me a reputable source that argues (actively) that Pinochet was not a dictator." I am pretty sure you won't find one, as even his supporters don't seriously argue that point.
  • Secondly there is not, and has never been, consensus around the so-called "weasel words" policy; see Wikipedia talk:Avoid weasel words.
  • Thirdly, the "weasel words" policy is not even applicable in this case. As the opening sentence of Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words says, "Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources." There are plenty of reputable and verifiable sources that describe Pinochet as a "dictator" (and none that I have seen that argue that he is not.) Go read Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words again. Kwertii 23:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I certainly dont need to provide a source actively saying he isnt a dictator in order to justify not calling him one, as I said before that isnt how sourcing works, one uses sourcing to prove something not to disprove it. The WP:AWW also says "The main problem with weasel words is that they interfere with Wikipedia's neutral point of view." which is where I am coming from with this, it just shows an anti Pinochet viewpoint and that must be avoided at all costs, ie taking sides around a highly contrioversial figure, SqueakBox 23:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to grasp what a "weasel word" is. The "weasel word" policy refers to making unsourced statements such as "Many people say that Pinochet is a dictator". The "weasel words" are "many people say...", not "is a dictator." It is meant to encourage people to source the statements that they use, not to prevent people from using unpleasant, yet accurate, descriptions. We already have tons of reputable and verifiable sources that say Pinochet was a dictator. Kwertii 04:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I also dont think we should call Allende a marxist even though this is also true, SqueakBox 22:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

That is patently absurd. Kwertii 23:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"Marxist" is not a perjorative term outside the context of right-wing politics. Allende was a self-described Marxist. He was head of the Socialist Party of Chile. I'm not sure at this point if you actually believe this or if you're simply trolling. Kwertii 23:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Its the wikipedia way, avoid contention and make WP:NPOV along with verifiability as the guiiding lights of the project, SqueakBox 23:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"The Wikipedia way" also entails using the talk page to discuss disputes, rather than using it to hide behind policy. So far, you have not responded to any of the points I raised. He was verifiably and in a perfectly NPOV sense of the word a "dictator". Kwertii 04:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


There is no doubt he was president, he self appointed himself to that position. It's hard to argue otherwise. I came up with compromise wording:

(November 25, 1915 – December 10, 2006) was a general and President of Chile. He led a military junta to power in 1973 through a U.S.-backed[1] coup d'état, deposing the democratically elected president Salvador Allende. In 1974, Pinochet appointed himself president [5][6] and assumed power for 17 years without elections. He implemented economic reforms which his supporters credit with the development of the robust modern Chilean economy[2][3]. Pinochet's government also implemented the anti-dissident campaign called "Operation Condor", during which around 3,000 suspects were murdered and around 30,000 more were tortured. He stepped down from power in 1990, after losing a national plebiscite in 1988. At the time of his death in 2006, Pinochet was facing around 300 criminal charges in Chile for human rights abuses committed under his rule and embezzlement.[citation needed]

I will improve it if some form of consensus is reached.--Pethr 02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

If you put the pov tag back on the article this is the place to give your reasons. if you dont give any rerasons here I will remove it as we cant make this article more NPOV unless we know what is POV. It doesnt appear POV but instead balanced to me, SqueakBox 23:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV editors

Please be familiar with WP:NPOV before editing. I dont particularly like Pinochet but find myself defending him against editors who are filled with hatred towards him and appear not to care about our POV policy but only about putting their own anti Pinochet views in the article, SqueakBox 16:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I'd like to see references on all Pinochet's quotes. I didn't search for every single one of them but I couldn't find those I searched for. I don't think it's appropriete to have unsourced quotes here, not to mention there is Wikiquote for those things!--Pethr 01:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed and removed, SqueakBox 01:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I think it's the right thing to do. I would copy it to wikiquotes if it had any sense of credibility but I rather think that someone completely made it up to cast negative light on A.P. Well if the light can be any more negative - Pinochet is one of the creatures where I have really hard time reverting edits which reflect more the bad side. Anyway, it survived too long! We have to be more careful about additions to this article.--Pethr 02:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think they were made up, I recognized a few of them. The quote about Human Rights being a Marxist invention was given in a CNN en Español interview in 90s, for example. They're probably hard to find because they were given in Spanish originally. However, I also agree with their removal. Maybe a link to WikiQuotes should be included instead; I havent checked but I'm sure there will be some quotes of his there. GringoInChile 02:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
They seem to be a translated version of a selection of quotes from this page in the Spanish Wikiquote. GringoInChile 02:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Great work, It would still be good to source them and then put them on Wikiquotes. I don't understand a word in Spanish, so may be someone else will volunteer. May be it will be pretty easy to find sources to most of them in Spanish language media.--Pethr 02:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I was the editor who added the quotes. They were all from one source: La Nación newspaper. A single reference for every quote was added after the last quote, because I didn't want to clutter the article with "a,b,c,d,e,f,g,,,etc [reference]." I will put them on Wikiquote. It brings a smile to my face to know that some of you thought they were fake. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I didnt think they were fake, just inappropriate to have so many though one or 2 would do no harm, SqueakBox 15:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/u/g/Talk%7EAugusto_Pinochet_4eff.html"