Talk:Athletic Bilbao

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News This article has been http://football.guardian.co.uk/theknowledge/story/0,13854,1643916,00.html by the mainstream press. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source for details.


  • Article in The Guardian on November 23 2005 about origin of colours of football tops cites Wikipedia on two occasions.[1]
  • Everton F.C. in their match program for a friendly against Athletic on August 12 2006 use Wikipedia version of Athletic history.


Contents

[edit] Miguel Jones

There is now seperate article on Miguel Jones User:Djln--Djln 02:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Basque Flags for the players (instead of Spanish ones)

I reckon it makes much more sense, since it is the club's policy to sign only basque players. If you feel Bixente Lizarazu should also get the Ikurrina treatment, or someone else shouldn't you are free to change it --User:Malinskchen

I think it would be a good idea to also include Spanish flags for the majority of the players. The club has a distinguished record in producing Spanish internationals and most either have or are eligible to represent Spain --Djln 17:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC )User:Djln


Just one consideration. The policy of the club is to sign only local players, but not only Basques, some of them are/were from the neighbouring regions, even neighbouring countries like Lizarazu or some English players in the origin of the club. So in that case we should use the flags of:

etc

So, as I defended in the Talk:FC Barcelona discussion, the use of regional flags in the main article is not reasonable. --Uhanu 01:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cantera Policy & Flags

I understand that the policy of the club is still only to sign Basque players. These local players are Basques! Even the players from the neighbouring regions have Basque connections, e.g Basque parents or grandparents or have played for other Basque clubs as a youth, and Lizararu is a French Basque. These points and the clubs British origins are all mentioned in the article. While I agree the use of regional flags has become excessive in other articles, I believe there inclusion can be justified here. Djln --Djln 20:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, the policy is to sign only Basque players or players that were formed as footballers in any Basque team. Basque is understood as anyone born (or formed) in the Basque Country, Navarra or the French Basque Country. Apparently is quite simple, but it can cause some slightly different interpretations. For instace: is basque someone born out of the basque country but with basque parents? should both (the father and the mother) be basque? is it enough with basque grandparents? is basque someone that "accidentally" was born in the basque country? Depending on who were the people governing the club, the historical moment and each particular case indeed, there have been some "doubftul" basque footballers that have played in Athletic and others that have not played. Well, what I come to say is that the introduction of the article emphasizes too much this fact, something that under my point of view is purely anecdotal. I don't really think this fact is an important characteristic of Athletic and for me it has non sense to name three footballers that din't play in Atlhetic. There are millions of footballers that have never played.

[edit] Lions in the coat-of-arms

The coat-of-arms of Biscay was supported by a lion. --Error 03:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1902 Cup

1902 Cup won by Vizcaya not Athletic, check official statistics: Athletic 23 Cups not 24

http://www.segundosfuera.com/futbol/palmares/espana/copa_del_rey.html

http://www.marca.com/futbol/coparey0506/palmares.html

http://www.elfutbolin.com/copadelrey/palmares.asp

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_del_Rey

http://www.nuestrozaragoza.com/historia/palmares/palmares_copa_rey.html

83.1992.2006

  • You are quoting incorrect sources. Read Athletic Bilbao website history section and you will see that Club Vicaya was made up of two clubs that merged and became Athletic Bilbao. It is part of same club. I see by your user page that I am not the only one pissed off with your attitude and edits. If you carry on I will have to start an award for Most Persistant Vandal. Do mind if I name it after you. Djln--Djln 23:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Incorrect sources? Official statistics !!! It can be happening ... Im talking to a wall.
    • How are the above official? You have obviously not checked the actual website of the club involved. None of these sites say that Club Vizcaya is a seperate club. It is very simple Club Vizcaya became Athletic Bilbao. Please refrain from abuse.

Athletic Trophy List Djln--Djln 14:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Athletic has 23 Cups, they DID NOT win 1902 Cup, I'm talking about official statistics, Athletic web is changing history just like this wiki article, but Im not sure you can understand because you are very very short. Stupid man. I'm gonna change it as soos as I can, make you a favour, investigate about it in neutral sources. 83.1992.2006
  • Several clubs including FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Real Sociedad and RCD Espanyol have won the Copa del Rey with different names. All trophies won under their various names are included in one list. So why should Athletic record be different ? Read up on their history and you will see they are same club. PS Can u stop personal attacks ? They are uncalled for. Djln --Djln 15:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

PS, This source shows 1902 Cup is in Athletic museum. If they did not win it, why do they have it in their museum ?[2]

  • May be u understand this way:

Imagine FCB and Espanyol playing together under the name "Catalonia" a trhophy. They win the trophy, Can U say that Barça has won the trophy? Why do u think in RFEF statistics, official statistics, 1902 Cup don't scores to Athletic and they have officially 23 cups and not 24? Come on, investigate just a little in neutral sources, Athletic's web is changing history and this wiki article too.83.1992.2006

  • If you know your history FCB and Espanyol did actually do this in early Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and FCB DID take the credit. They entered under the name Barcelona rather then Catalonia. Two Bilbao teams, Bilbao FC and Athletic Club, entered combined team called Club Vizcaya, in 1902 Copa. In 1903 BOTH these clubs merged and became Athletic Club de Bilbao. So how exactly are Athletic taking credit from anybody. None of these official statistics say Club Vizcaya is a completely seperate club from Athletic. So why do put so much emphasis on them. A better example is Club Ciclista de San Sebastian in 1909. This win is credited to Real Sociedad[3] on basis that the club changed name. This is what happened with Club Vizcaya and Athletic. Djln--Djln 23:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Liga de Fútbol Professional (LFP), click athletic image (second top left) and check "palmarés"  :

http://www.lfp.es/

You are against all evidence, man. Athletic's official web lies, ask them why if you want but don't help them to change Spanish Cup history.

- "Barcelona" side was effectively FCB with one player from RCD Espanyol in first Fairs Cup. May be we should discuss if FCB deserves this credit, but Athletic in 1902 ALREADY EXISTED as a footbal club, Vizcaya is not Athletic predecessor. ATHLETIC DID NOT WON 1902 Cup. CHECK OFFICIAL STATISTICS. Last time I tell you.83.1992.2006


  • I hate to say this but I consider the LFP an official and very reliable source, and it does state that Athletic de Bilbao won the Copa del Rey 23 times, not 24, the first one being in 1903.

maurimarzal 10:15, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

    • Official sources are not necessary accurate or unbiased and should not be treated as gospel. For example these official sources do not recognise the Copa de Espana Libre of 1937. Although this tournament had only four entrants, this was more then several of the earlier competitions. I am not disputing that Club Vizcaya won the Copa in 1902. However Athletic have 1902 Copa in their museum and include it in their trophy list because this team was a formative team of the modern Athletic. Below is a timeline which hopefully will help explain my reasoning. It is very clear:
      • Early 1890s Bilbao FC formed by British workers.
      • 1898 Basque students returning from UK form Athletic Club.
      • 1902 Above two teams enter combined team known as Club Vizcaya in Copa del Rey.
      • 1903 These two teams merge and form Athletic Club Bilbao. Djln--Djln 21:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • You are against all evidence, you are against real history, you are a real liar. Bye.

83.1992.2006

This is going nowhere and will probably descend into another round of edit wars. Please apply for Arbitration here--Tiresais 16:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1902 Copa compromise

I have added the the note below to article. Hopefully this will resolve issue.

    • The number of Copa wins Athletic Bilbao have been credited with is disputed. The 1902 competition was won by Club Vizcaya, a team made up of players from Athletic Club and Bilbao FC. In 1903 these two clubs merged as Athletic Club Bilbao. The 1902 cup is on display in the Athletic museum [4] and the club includes it in its own honours list.[5]. However some sources do not include this as an Athletic win.Djln--Djln 23:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unable to make these changes that are needed

In the Squad listing;

I have unprotected the article. Go ahead and make the edits you see needed. Shanes 23:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Thankski--Tiresais 12:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transfers

I have removed the list of recent transfers, as Wikipedia is not a news service. Maurimarzal 16:00, 9 September 2006 (GMT)

[edit] Name in Basque

I think this reference to the name in Basque should be removed, as it is not official (the only name is Athletic Club in ALL languages) and, in any case, it is not used by anybody, not even the local Basque press who just refers to it as "Athletic". --tonis1 06:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

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