Talk:Aspasia

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Moved to talk, needs some explanation and NPOV. —siroχo

Aspacia and Socrates were very good friends and their conversations are intellectually very engaging.

In Plato's dialogue Menexenus, Socrates says "That I should be able to make the speech would be nothing wonderful, Menexenus; for she who is my instructor is by no means weak in the art of rhetoric; on the contrary, she has turned out many fine orators, and amongst them one who surpassed all other Greeks, Pericles, the son of Xanthippus." So, she was apparently one of his teachers, at least. Adam Bishop 15:03, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Plato is ironical. He wants to cast aspersions on Pericles' rhetorical fame.--Yannismarou 11:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I wonder what is the source for the claim "...but closer to the Japanese geisha"??

"A courtesan is a person paid and/or supported in return for providing social companionship and intimate liaisons to more than one partner." Says the courtesan article.

If we tell she is a courtesan, her social role is to look pretty and have sex for money. A geisha did a lot more talking (before sex) and played an important role during non-sexual occasions, like a tea ceremony. Her role was socially accepted, the courtesan not. The author tried an explanation and does not have sources, so you could point out it is original research. Wandalstouring 13:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I added information and citation. I also removed the template "disputed". I donot see much of a dispute here! After all, now almost all the assessments and the statements are citated. I intend to continue the rewriting of the article.--Yannismarou 12:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Then the courtesan article needs work; courtesan and prositute have different (if overlapping) meanings. Septentrionalis 05:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I am not the one who is going to rewrite the courtesan article!--Yannismarou 07:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lysicles

If the source for Aspasia's marriage to Lysicles is Plutarch, it fails verificaiion. The translation cited says:

And Aeschines2 says that Lysicles the sheep-dealer, a man of low birth and nature, came to be the first man at Athens by living with Aspasia after the death of Pericles. [1]

The Greek word in synonta, which is as broad as the English. Both can mean "live together as man and wife", but need not do so. A secondary source would be necessary for this interpretation and I don't see one cited; I consulted the the OCD and they say "took up with".

(added in edit conflict)We should not, in any case, use "allegedly" married; the worst possible weasel-word is one that doesn't weasel.

It is also unconventional, when ancient source A cites B, and B's text cannot be verified, to mention B in text. We know that ancient authors have misquoted and misunderstood other ancient authors; but this one is easy to fix. Septentrionalis 05:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, yes. The Perseus encyclopedia says "married", but the OCD is the better of those two; barring a more authoritative source weighing in, we'll probably have to stick with "took up with" or "lived with" or something. --Robth^Talk 05:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the advantage of precise citation; if I knew this came from Perseus, I would have gone there, as I now will. Septentrionalis 05:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that it originally did come from there; I just now turned that up while searching Perseus for relevant texts. --Robth^Talk 05:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plutarch

Two quotations for the Perseus encyclopedia are worth bearing in mind. On the one hand, "Modern scholars agree that the basic facts of Aspasia's life as recorded by Diodoros the Athenian (FGrHist 372 F 40 ), Plutarch (Plut. Per. 24.3 ) and the lexicographers are correct." This may in context be a quite limited statement; but as far as it goes, we can put the sources for citizenship, birthdate, and so forth in the notes.

On the other hand, "Plutarch relates more information about Aspasia than any other ancient author. Unfortunately, Plutarch's Lives are full of distortions and historical inaccuracies. His purpose in the Lives was to exemplify the virtues and vices of great men, not to write history." And, as they add, much of what he does say is from Athenian comedies. Septentrionalis 05:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I welcome any additional sources, but I' sure that, if you do deep inside Aspasia's life you'll find a lot of contradictions as I did!--Yannismarou 07:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure; but we should present secondary sources on the contradictions. Septentrionalis 19:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I do! At least in most cases.--Yannismarou 19:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure you do; just making a point of principle. Septentrionalis 04:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why I think "allegedly" is still necessary

Stadter's comment about Aspasia's "involvement" with Lysicles (Stadter has written the most detailed commentary on Plutarch):

"Lysicles was mocked for his connection with trade, as was Cleon "the tan- ner," though both were wealthy men. He may be identical with the general who died in action in Caria in 428/27 (Thuc. 3.19.1; cf. Gomme, HCT ad loc.; PA 9417). If so, it raises the question when Aspasia began to associate with him, as Pericles had died only shortly before. Was it while Pericles was still alive? Aspasia's rela- tion to Lysicles, like that to Pericles, furnished material for the comic poets and philosophers. The name of his son, Poristes ("Supplier"), is extraordinary and may be a comedian's joke. As- pasia could not have been his legal wife any more than Pericles'."

So I think "involved with" is indeed better than "married". I just want to explain why I still regrad "allegedly" necessary. Because we are not even sure if Aspasia hat any involvement with Lysicle. I repeat what Khan says:

"According to Kahn, stories, such as Socrates' visits to Aspasia along with his friends' wives and Lysicles' connection with Aspasia, are not likely to be historical. He believes that Aeschines was indifferent to the historicity of his Athenian stories and that these stories must have been invented at a time, when the date of Lysicles' death had been forgotten, but his occupation still remembered."

I've noted that in the article. So we have two ananswered questions:

• Had Aspasia any kind of relationship with Lysicles?
• If they had a relationship, were they married?

So, that is way the best phrasing for the lead in: "she was allegedly involved with Pericles". That is what I edited, but I'm open to any proposals.--Yannismarou 15:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I was going to suggest explaining who alleged the involvement; but, on second thought, why is Lysicles in the intro at all? If I knew why, it would help in suggesting phrasing. Septentrionalis 19:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Because the lead summarizes the article and Lysicles is (probably) a part of her life!--Yannismarou 19:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite follow. Everything in this article is a part of her life, but it can't all go into the lead. But I have an idea on how to replace allegedly, which has become overused in English. Septentrionalis 04:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)