Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tony Blackplait
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This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 08:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Tõnu Trubetsky
(Previously Tony Blackplait)
Listing at VfD only because it does not seem to be a candidate for speedy deletion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. While the subject may have perpetrated a hoax (i.e. passing his band off as the original Flowers of Romance), that does not make him unnoteworthy (and as I know little about Estonia or its music scene, it is hard to determine). If there are falsehoods in this and related articles they should be cleaned up (and I have been making an effort at this for several months, since the anon. editor of the articles in question began to show up). Using Wikipedia to perpetrate a hoax (and for self-promotion) is a different issue. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Comments: Anon. user first showed up in January asserting that a band calling itself "Flowers of Romance" was the comeback of the original, and that Sid Vicious was thus a member. I confronted the editor about this and he backed off the claims. Unfortunately this seemes to have only happened in the English Wikipedia, resulting in this post to the Commons Village Pump. Also see Talk:Tony Blackplait and Talk:The Flowers of Romance (band) for more history of this issue, as well as Talk:The Flowers of Romance (band 2) (though the article itself was speedily deleted [wrongly IMHO]). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: I've just had quick look on Google (which I know shouldn't determine a keep or delete) and it appears to me that a large proportion of the search results are from other Wikipedia articles or copies thereof. (I have a gut feeling that his page might be worth a weak keep, but I don't feel competent to properly vote, knowing nothing about the subject matter.) --Finbarr Saunders 19:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Delete: Doesn't seem encyclopedic in content, scope, nor subject, with questionable source. (SEWilco 20:21, 29 August 2005 (UTC))
- Keep no clear evidence that it meets the deletion criteria. Trollderella 20:25, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Delete References are mostly on Wikipedia in different languages. Very questionable. Groeck 21:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Delete The "facts" given in the article are all false. The listed movies are unknown to the Internet Movie Database. When entering the name into google search all that comes up are Wikipedia-Pages in other languages and copies of Wikipedia and other Wikis where the name has been tricked into articles (like one about Sid Vicious). The complete article is one big lie. Kju 21:41, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Comments: It's hard to explain the case in English but I'll give my best. Blackplait (Trubetsky) is an Estonian anarchist and a real-existing person. I really doubt he has (ever had) no connection whatsoever with the "original" The Flowers of Romance. But he is a singer in Estonian band Vennaskond and he's been using the pseodonym Blackplait. I think the situation is that some person has been sending false data to wikipedia and other similar sites in the Internet. He has released an album under the name The Flowers of Romance in Estonia, but there is no connection whatsoever with the "original" band. The "Estonian Flowers of Romance" is a band consisting of Vennaskond' members whose names have been anglicified (Allan Vainola has changed to Al Vainola for example). It's probably kind of a homage to the band, and so the "Estonian TFOR"'s a mix of facts and fiction, it's kind of urban legend. On the movies/books/albums the facts are actually mostly right. All the albums listed have been released in Estonia and of three movies I have seen two, one of them is currently located on my HDD by fact (though they are really bad amateur-documentaries). Trubetsky didn't appear as an actor in movies "Serenade", "The Sweet Planet" and "War", he actually was a animator on those (working at the time in Tallinnfilm movie-studio). Estonian titles of the movies are "Serenaad", "Magus planeet" and "Sõda" and you can find them in IMDb, with the information on Trubetsky being an animator listed only on the case of "Sõda". I guess he appeared in Pekka Karjalainen's Hysteria (information on this film's at IMDb, though he's not been submitted to the cast list, but hey, the imdb's incomplete like anything else.) The case is the same with books: they're in Estonian and not known in the world so I guess it's hard to find information from the Internet and I doubt they're ever been translated to English so their names would have to be in Estonian. I know anonymous users' opinions don't count on VfDs, but my suggestion would be to move the article under the name Tõnu Trubetsky (as he's not know in the west that well under the name of Blackplait and to clean up the information on movies and books, as he in fact's pretty well-known in Estonia and Finland (as a member of Vennaskond). The only part on which' autenticy I doubt is from "...and lived in different cities..." to "made a "demos" with Teet Tibar, his Estonian friend." This part is imho the only part of article that should be deleted or at least improved very much.
- Please show proof for what you are telling us. I still don't believe. I find your information very hard to believe. So you are telling us that "Flowers of Romance" is both the title of an album released as well as the name of his band? This is not very believable. And even if the information is correct, this raises the question if the guy in question is of enough relevance for wikipedia. I don't think that "really bad amateur-documentaries" are a criteria for inclusion into wikipedia. -- Kju/Kju (de) 22:44, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, eponymous albums are fairly common. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- as it was said, there are many eponymous albums released. anyway, on the films you can see all three enlisted on Estonian Film Foundation's website. sadly the site's english version has no such list. the DVD for the latest film is sold here. on books the first place of info I found is an online bookshop (sadly in Estonian too, but I hope it'll do) and you can listen Vennaskond's music here and The Flowers of Romance's here. I hope it'll do. And I can cut you a sample from one of the movies if that's needed.
- Please show proof for what you are telling us. I still don't believe. I find your information very hard to believe. So you are telling us that "Flowers of Romance" is both the title of an album released as well as the name of his band? This is not very believable. And even if the information is correct, this raises the question if the guy in question is of enough relevance for wikipedia. I don't think that "really bad amateur-documentaries" are a criteria for inclusion into wikipedia. -- Kju/Kju (de) 22:44, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Comments: It's hard to explain the case in English but I'll give my best. Blackplait (Trubetsky) is an Estonian anarchist and a real-existing person. I really doubt he has (ever had) no connection whatsoever with the "original" The Flowers of Romance. But he is a singer in Estonian band Vennaskond and he's been using the pseodonym Blackplait. I think the situation is that some person has been sending false data to wikipedia and other similar sites in the Internet. He has released an album under the name The Flowers of Romance in Estonia, but there is no connection whatsoever with the "original" band. The "Estonian Flowers of Romance" is a band consisting of Vennaskond' members whose names have been anglicified (Allan Vainola has changed to Al Vainola for example). It's probably kind of a homage to the band, and so the "Estonian TFOR"'s a mix of facts and fiction, it's kind of urban legend. On the movies/books/albums the facts are actually mostly right. All the albums listed have been released in Estonia and of three movies I have seen two, one of them is currently located on my HDD by fact (though they are really bad amateur-documentaries). Trubetsky didn't appear as an actor in movies "Serenade", "The Sweet Planet" and "War", he actually was a animator on those (working at the time in Tallinnfilm movie-studio). Estonian titles of the movies are "Serenaad", "Magus planeet" and "Sõda" and you can find them in IMDb, with the information on Trubetsky being an animator listed only on the case of "Sõda". I guess he appeared in Pekka Karjalainen's Hysteria (information on this film's at IMDb, though he's not been submitted to the cast list, but hey, the imdb's incomplete like anything else.) The case is the same with books: they're in Estonian and not known in the world so I guess it's hard to find information from the Internet and I doubt they're ever been translated to English so their names would have to be in Estonian. I know anonymous users' opinions don't count on VfDs, but my suggestion would be to move the article under the name Tõnu Trubetsky (as he's not know in the west that well under the name of Blackplait and to clean up the information on movies and books, as he in fact's pretty well-known in Estonia and Finland (as a member of Vennaskond). The only part on which' autenticy I doubt is from "...and lived in different cities..." to "made a "demos" with Teet Tibar, his Estonian friend." This part is imho the only part of article that should be deleted or at least improved very much.
on the "really bad amateur-documentaries", they are music films, mostly a collection of music and live videos from different eras and some other segments, like the band walking the streets of Helsinki or playing cards on a ferry boat. they aren't quite what you'd call a movie, that's what I meant.
and I don't know if he's known so well to have an article in English Wikipedia. But in here exists an article of a dumb Estonian popgroup Click OK; if they're considered notable, than he's certanly notable too.
- Delete. Well done, Kju. Sdedeo 21:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Addendum: I made some further research. The books listed are as fake as the movies are. The titles can't be found in international library catalogues. The complete article is fake and wikipedia has fallen for it - until now. -- Kju/Kju (de) 22:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Delete Jachin 22:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Delete nn, dubious veracity. --Etacar11 02:34, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Keep'. I back the opinion and the proposals of the anonymous contributor above. Move the title to "Tõnu Trubetsky". The "hoax" obviously is due to a mystification by Trubetsky himself and his band companions. The titles of his books are given in translation in the article, this is why they cannot be found. The films are not the reason of his fame, they are just musical videofilms documneting the band's activities. Tõnu Trubetsky is a famous and influential figure in Estonia. I added the Estonian wikilink to et:Tõnu Trubetsky, and I'll make some clean-up there. Andres 07:55, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- I moved the article to Tõnu Trubetsky and changed the title here. Andres 08:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- The list of his books is here. Andres 08:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Keep. The most popular search engine in Estonia, neti.ee, gives 749 results when searching for "tõnu trubetsky" (http://www.neti.ee/cgi-bin/otsing?query=%22t%F5nu+trubetsky%22&src=web). He is a famous musician. PeepP 08:24, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. User:Andres. reverted the Tony Blackplait article and appears to be an impersonator of User:Andres. Listed at WP:AIV. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:01, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Keep clearly a valid topic (or redirect if that is what we are voting over now). --Dittaeva 09:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.
