Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Texas Baptist College

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Prodego ^talk 23:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Texas Baptist College

Delete per no notability. An unaccredited "college" that offers "degrees" in subjects like "Secretarial Studies". I can't find a figure on how many people attended, but I assume its small since the church, Longview Baptist Temple that operates it claims that the church has 3,000 members. Moreover, looking at their website the Bob Gray, "founder" of the college, is constantly referred to as "Dr." without mentioning his doctorate is honorary and from Hyles Anderson College (an unaccredited institution.) This is telling of some problems of WP:V on its website. I get 3,000 yahoo hits for "Texas Baptist College" which included this article and places not related to this subject. Could be a diploma mill or could be a great school either way it lacks WP:V. Arbusto 01:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Not notable. It is a "ministry of the Longview Baptist Temple", also listed for deletion today. Either delete or merge with that article if it isn't deleted. QuiteUnusual 07:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• DeletePer nom. --The Way 08:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Maelnuneb (Talk) 14:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, not a significant institution. Gazpacho 23:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Delete, though I honestly could not care less about this school one way or the other, I would point out that though it is unaccredited it still has had students, at the same time it has controversy and respect as well. The fact is some people may wonder about this school that want an unbiased opinion, I would never have known it existed until I saw it on wikipedia, plain and simple that is one of the great things about wikipedia, there are millions of things listed in standard encyclopedias I may never read but at the same time there may be somebody who needs to, by chance, no something, I do not find it notable, but it may be useful to someone else. The school's site is biased, wikipedia, is supposed to be an unbiased rescource for those searching, also there are many schools on here that are unaccredited, though I do think that this article should be kept I do not feel that the church article should be I feel that if anything the church article should be a section of the College article. --MJHankel 02:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Regarding your claim that it "has students", does it? Please provided WP:V of how many students it has. If it has a lot that might establish notability. Your claim that basically everything should be kept (even though you may not read it) isn't a reason for inclusion, and in fact goes against wikipedia policy. --Arbusto 02:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: Frankly I do not know but there has been a book written about it, from one of its alumni, beyond that I do not know, Like I said I never had heard of it before but it just seems as though there are other Unaccredited colleges listed and it just did not seem that there was any real reason to not list this one. I am just trying to expand and keep info on all subjects, frankly either way it does not much matter to me personally. I am just trying to make an appeal for this article. --MJHankel 05:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment Please give a reason for inclusion based on wikipedia policy. Your claim that everything should be included is absurd. Arbusto 18:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment As I said there was a book written about it called The Texas Baptist Crucible[1] so in that sense it is notable other than that I do not care plain and simple I honestly do not like in anyway Independent Baptist Fundamentalists look under controversies on Hyles Anderson College, William Andy Beith was my principal, I was at that school when it all went down,.. so basically this is not a biased argument I am simply stating that it is somewhat notable for its controversy which I am positive is more than this especially sense the founder/chancellor of this school "Bob Gray" was also the founder of another highly controversial school in florida Trinity Baptist College, either way I fill that if for no other reason than controversy this article may be important.--MJHankel 05:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem confused the book is about the church not the "college". The book is self-published by a former member of the church. Arbusto 06:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment I don't know that that is a confusion. The comments on Amazon and on various blogs and forum posts (yes, I know, not WP:V — just listen a sec) seem to indicate that the book discusses both, possibly because they are so intertwined. Lawikitejana 09:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe one day when this can pass WP:V and there is more than forum posts this article can be recreated. If the "book" is so important to the article then why not include it? Seems strange to cite something as a reason for keeping an article without entering it into the article. Arbusto 01:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Don't Delete: Those suggesting this outfit is trivial clearly don't live in East Texas. This is a sizeable (if a bit odd) organization that is one of the major religious and social institutions in East Texas. I don't know the numbers, but they fill busload after busload of congregants every Sunday from as far away as Dallas (130 miles). No, it isn't world-famous; but anyone who lives in Longview or any of the surrounding towns is well aware of it, has likely had dealings with it in some way, and understands that it is quite influential in the region. Its accreditation or lack thereof really doesn't have much to do with it's overall influence. This is a substantial, locally influential, controversial institution - if that doesn't make it worthy of an entry, then I just don't understand the criteria very well I guess.Ritwingr 05:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment this is Ritwingr's first ever edit. Arbusto 17:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment At first, I had trouble understanding the problem, too, but let me see if I can explain it. All of this controversy is potentially VERY notable ... but we don't have sufficiently solid sources to demonstrate that controversy yet. (The Spurgeon book doesn't yet count because none of us seem to be able to address whether it talks about TBC or only about the church.) If you look at the Hyles-Anderson College article mentioned above, you see that newspapers have written about problems there (just one example). If you live in East Texas, you may be able to find verifiable sources that those of us using online searches can't find; for example, have the Longview News-Journal or the Tyler Morning Telegraph published stories? I also wonder whether any specifically Baptist papers or papers of other Baptist colleges have written about it; I know that when the International Churches of Christ were getting started, a paper called The Christian Chronicle was writing about the movement long before major newspapers and TV stations or networks started covering the topic. Consider whether you or someone you know has access to such sources, and if so, post here any information you find. Lawikitejana 09:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry wikipedia does not keep articles based on "potentially notable" articles. Arbusto 02:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep unless the nominator can explain how having an entire book published about the folleys of this school somehow make it "not notable". I see several things notable about this school, non-accreditation != non-notability. Silensor 17:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Please name those several things that make it notable; I see nothing in the article. The book is about the CHURCH, and its self-pusblished! Regarding the self-published book: church!=school. Also accreditation is required in Texas to give degrees.[2] The article currently states they give degrees. That is a serious WP:V issue. Arbusto 01:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Silensor is right... just because it isnt an accredited school doesnt mean it cant be notable... It could be quite infamous for many reasons... This school in particular has a book published about all of its mistakes. That means the information is verifiable, and therefore should be kept.  ALKIVAR™ 18:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

What makes it notable? How many "students" attend? Arbusto 01:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, per Silensor and Alkivar. bbx 19:11, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a school inclusionist voter. Reasons for keeping (per others) are addressed above. Arbusto 01:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: The closing admin should see this. Arbusto 01:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Arbusto 02:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC) (UTC)

• Comment: Could we have a WP:V independent from the "college" that there is a classroom? A student body? Regular staff? That this "college" is authorized to give degrees? I ask because Texas requires accreditation to award degrees.[3]--Arbusto 02:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 03:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep any school that is the subject of a lurid exposé of its "cult-like environment" is notable in my book. Besides, what other institution of higher learning offers degree programs in "Church Maintenance and Mechanics". The Buddhists only offer bike maintenance at their schools. Given the notability of teh school, the nominator's unsupported concerns are irrelevant. Alansohn 05:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Alansohn, do you have any citations for this "lurid exposé" of which you speak? Also, delete per nom. Vectro 17:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: The SINGLE "book" (by a former member of the church) is about the CHURCH. The publisher of this 2006 book is PublishAmerica, which is a self-publishing company.[4] According to that Washington Post article, "PublishAmerica does use POD technology -- saving manufacturing and warehousing costs by not producing a book until a consumer actually places an order." The church was not notable enough for wikipedia Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Longview Baptist Temple and was DELETED. The only source that is being cited to make it notable is self-published. Self-published sources are not allowed per WP:RS. Hence the article should be deleted. Arbusto 06:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. A student number would be important here. Seeing that the staff number is 20, and that a bunch of those are probably non-teaching, that means there's probably only 10-15 instructors at this place, and thus the student number must be tiny. -newkai t-c 11:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:V. People voting keep on any and every school are getting a bit tiring, and this is a good example of what is so annoying about that behaviour. If an article doesn't pass the standards set by our policies (and seems unable to do so even after researching it), it should go. Fram 12:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, per lack of WP:V from reliable sources. It appears the main sourcing being offered for keeping this is the vanity published book about the church which is not sufficient. No clear case for notability has been made here and nobody has offered any sort of reliable sourcing for even the basic existance of this school.--Isotope23 14:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete without prejudice to recreation of verification of student numbers etc. is found Cynical 22:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.