Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siberian language (2 nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The article (at least currently) describes the language as constructed, so all comments about whether or not this language is "fake" are pretty much irrelevant. I have disregarded count completely: first of all, there were too many votes, but also it was clear that some kind of promotion of this debate took place somewhere. The policies this article would have to pass are WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, and WP:V, just like every other article. All three are an issue here. Let me handle them one at a time. WP:NPOV -- the issue here is how to present the substance of the Siberian language work. It's mentioned in the article that "some consider their approach unscientific," but regardless, the viewpoints go way beyond the sources, so WP:NPOV dictates that the article should at best be dramatically shortened. WP:NOT (notability) is somewhat of a problem, because without any published linguistic analysis of this, there's not much we can say. The project may be notable, as it's been covered in some media sources, though, but it's borderline, and the article is really about the language anyway. WP:NOT a soapbox applies also, but WP:V is the biggest issue: while WP policy leaves open the idea that we can use foreign language-only sources in an article, it's a bad idea in a case like this one where the claims go well beyond basic description: really, until there are source in English, the en.wiki community cannot maintain a policy-compliant article on this topic. While I considered a weasely "no consensus" close here, it's clearly in the interests of the community to have a decision here, and move on. And consensus is important for WP:NOT but not so much for WP:V anyway. Okay. I hope that explains my reasoning: I read every comment, and looked as best as I could at every issue. I do hope that if there's a deletion review, or any further debate on this topic that those of you who came here to simply add as many votes as possible will not participate: you know who you are, and you're just making all this more difficult. Mangojuice^talk 14:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Siberian language

Relisted due to contested closing. `'mikka (t) 01:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The article is nominated for the second time. The previous afd is Here. The result was delete. Original research. The language does not exist outside the internet. The only references to the language itself are the authors blogs.There is no published books on this "language", nor any WP:RS study of it. abakharev 02:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• This is lie. Please read the following links about the old siberian, for example -

1. Блинова О.И., Мартынова С.Э. словарь образных слов и выражений народного говора. – Томск: Изд-во научно-технической литературы, 1997 – 206с.
2. Богословская З.М. Словарь вариантной лексики сибирского говора. – Томск, 2000. – Т.1 – 303с.
3. Вершининский словарь/ Гл. ред. О.И. Блинова. – Томск: Изд-во Том. ун-та, 1998-2001. Т.1-5.
4. Полный словарь сибирского говора/ Гл. ред. О.И.Блинова. – Томск: Изд-во Том. ун-та, 1992-1995. – т. 1-4.
5. Иванцова Е.В. Феномен диалектной языковой личности. – Томск: Изд-во Том. ун-та,2002. – 312с.
6. Словарь просторечных русских говоров/ Гл. ред. О.И.Блинова 1998. – 320с.
7. Раков Г.А. Диалектный идеографический словарь. – Томск. – изд-во Том. ун-та, 1998. – 345с.
8. Словарь русских старожильческих говоров Среднего Прииртышья. В 3 т. Томск, 1992.
9. Садретдинова Г.А. История заселения русскими Западной Сибири в связи с изучением сибирских старожильческих говоров. //Диалектологические и историко-лингвистические проблемы. Омск, 1999.
10. Даль В.И. Толковый словарь живого великорусского языка: в 4 т., М., 1989.

And do not lie more. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And where did e.g. Dahl speak about the "Siberian language"? BTW try to be civil 02:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of remarks "siberian" in his vocabulary. You directly lie and I directly say this, this is not abuse. And the AFD you mentioned was a year ago about OTHER article, which was just a stub. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Please type in Google "сибирский старожильческий говор" or "севернорусское наречие" and read the NPOV sources. May be you do not know Russian dialectology and your lie is just mistake. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep May need to be reclassified as a dialect. However, we have articles about various dialects. I see no reason why we should not have this. Nlsanand 02:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The article on Siberian dialects would be indeed a very useable one. This particular Siberian language deels with an artificial language invented by Yaroslav Zolotaryov which does not exist outside the Internet blogs. It has nothing more with reality than the tripling African elephants abakharev 04:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
    • The language is codification of the dialects, that's all --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Keep unless all of its references are shown to be false. If this were a popular constructed language, we would still have an article on it. If it is, in fact, based on actual dialects, all the better. Note that there are interwikis to four other Wikipedias.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 03:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Links LiveJournal of Zolotaryov and Internet site "volgota group" by Zolotaryov. Then APN - "The experiments on creation of Siberian language should be lauded" (1 phrase somehow related), Kazakh and others - internet articles about Zolotaryov and his experiment. Not a single reference to any academic sources, since I assume the Zolotatyov mentioned in this articles is the same User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov, I assume no academic references exist. Then I would suggest to publish something in referred sources then put it here. This the policy of WP:NOR and WP:V abakharev 04:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep --Alexander Gouk 03:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User has 5 prior edits.--Pan Gerwazy 11:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

He is from belarussian wiki, his contributions http://be.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A1%D0%BF%D1%8D%D1%86%D1%8B%D1%8F%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%8F:Contributions&target=Alexander+Gouk

• Keep Siberians! Delete Muscovites! - rutopist —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.33.22.253 (talk • contribs).

User has no prior edits.--Pan Gerwazy 11:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. In addition to various reasons I gave in the previous undeletion request, here is another one: the request for a wikipedia in Siberian has been approved lately. An old discussion about WP's conlang policy makes pointed to the conclusion, that having a wikipedia in itself may not be a reason for having an article, but it strongly contributes to its notability. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 05:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

KeepMuscovites fear this cultural movement. Roman Baiduk bydook@gmail.com

• Keep, per Nlsanand. Article may need to be re-classified, but, besides that, seems to adequately describe the cultural phenomenon (initiative on codification of dialects). It isn't OR, it's an article about OR. There are articles about each and every pop-culture thingy, so why not about this?

  The claim of non-existence of S.L. looks redundant, as the lead already tells that it's an initiative (article could benefit from explicitly stating so, though).

  That talks it's based on do not exist, I doubt -- I remember reading "Parting with Matyora" ("Прощание с Матёрой"), and (Siberian) people there talked quite like that.

  Finally, for the assessing of the codification attempt itself, I think we'd have to wait for the scholars' word. End of problem? Yury Tarasievich 06:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• strong keep This language even will have the Wikipedia soon. It means that the community have already made its decission about the "natural" roots of Siberian! be:User:Booxter
• Delete per previous AfD and per nominator, and because this subject is formally unverifiable in the English Wikipedia, as the sources listed above are not in English (which has been a consistent problem in discussing this article). This is not a language or dialect as commonly understood, it's a constructed language, and one which is of no verifiable signifciance to an English-speaking audience. This bears every appearance of being an astroturfing campaign; Yaroslav Zolotaryov is a leader in the web community which promotes this. Note that the article describes it as a "standardised language" which appears to be a WP:NPOV failure. Just zis Guy you know? 13:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  Frankly, I can't see why the references must necessarily be in English. Is there any policy regarding that? If so, I'd be very unpleasantly surprised, as it would show utter disregard for the non-Anglosaxon rest of the world! It would be strange if we would apply a similar policy in the Dutch wikipedia (in fact, in a similar discussion about High Icelandic we didn't even complain about all references being in Icelandic!). In any case, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who know enough Russian to be able to confirm the sources. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 13:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  Here you go - i know Russian, but i live in Israel, so i think i'm rather neutral, does that count? You'll just have to believe me that i'm rather indifferent to the politics of Moscow vs. Siberia vs. Belarus vs. Ukraine. I also know a few things about Linguistics (that's my major) and in particular about Slavic linguistics and dialectology. And based on all of the above i can say that this project is valid:

  It's true that it may be done by a small group - but the creation of Esperanto (spoken by over a millions now) and the creation of modern spoken Hebrew (spoken by over 6 million now) were also works of very small groups.

  It's true that this group has a certain "national" agenda, but it is very haphazard and i didn't see anything extremist or outright anti-Russian in it.

  It's true that to speakers of Russian this language looks like Cockney or Redneck English put to writing, but they completely ignore the fact that it has a dictionary of over 20,000 words and a complete grammar.

  They also ignore the fact that this grammar is rather different from Russian. The verb tense system is radically different, it has the definite article which is completely absent in Russian, and it has different phonology. All these things are very well documented as actual features of Northern Russian dialects. Now a group comes and makes a literary language out of these dialects. Let me tell you a secret - many major literary world languages started out as compromises between several dialects that were codified by scientists and promoted in schools by governments. After a few generations they became natural languages. Such are German, Indonesian and Urdu, for example.

  Please don't let ignorance influence your decisions. --Amir E. Aharoni 17:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a multilanguage project and presence of the English sources is not obligatory term. See WP:V

English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly.

--Yakudza 14:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I have founded some refrences even IN ENGLISH for him, see the talk page. Blinova was my teacher in Tomsk univercity, I have saw thousands of tapes with records of old siberian dialect, very many cards with the words, hard work of our dialectologists --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. The Siberian language - quickly developing project of the literary language, he is founded on real dialects. For removing this article voted basically on political reason. This only linguistical project, but not political. Why about completely artificial language Slovio exists the article in Wikipedia, but about language, founded on real dialect no? Previous nomination on removing was for little stub, presently this big and good article. --Yakudza 13:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  I agree with that. In the first VfD I would probably have voted for deletion as well, but it is obvious that a lot has changed in the meantime. Besides, it's true that the original version was nothing but an ugly stub. Given the fact that a) there will soon be a wikipedia in this language; b) there seem to be plenty of people who use it and the testwiki is flourishing; c) it has been mentioned, or even described, more than once in the Russian press - I think preservation of this article is more than warranted. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 13:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps I should vote formally. Keep, of course. Artificial or not, the language lives in Siberian wiki and in siberian sites. The words were taken from veriable sources. In fact, Russian language is more conlang than Siberian, constructed by Lomonosov on Church Slavonic base. But languages like Ukranian, Belarusian and Siberian were collected from real farmers' dialects and have natural rights to survive and develop. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• keep, I talked to Yaroslav a bit; it seems reasonable to have this article here. Timichal 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep I don't see any reason for delete. There is everything clear for this article.--Ottorahn 15:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep 17:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steel archer (talk • contribs).
• Delete. A false presentation of an original development of Zolotaryov as a "standard dialect". You simply cannot make a "strandard" in 1-2 years. The bulk of the article, "Historical survey" section must be moved into something like Siberian dialects of Russian language, but the self-promotion of a certain "standartization" effort is a way too overhyped. `'mikka (t) 18:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I also find it despicable that the advocates substitute the question of validity of "Zolotaryov Siberian language" (the topic of the article) by the discussion about Old siberian dialects. Of course Old Siberian dialects is a valid topic. But we are not deleting it! We are trying to delete Zolotaryov's hobby. `'mikka (t) 18:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment: What are you so exercised about? Maybe it is a constructed language; so what? We have lots of articles about constructed langauges.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 18:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment: So what? I've never heard anybody complain about Tolkien's hobby or Zamenhof's hobby. I really don't think that matters. What matters is only this question: is the language significant enough for inclusion? Given the number of articles written about it, the fact that there is a community of users, and the fact that there is going to be a wikipedia in it, I believe there is.

Let me also point out that this language seems to be part of the grey area between natural languages and constructed languages. It is constructed, but for 100 % based on natlang stuff, and apparently made with the intention of it becoming a spoken language. Another case in point: Rumantsch Grischun, created in 1982 on the basis of various Rhaetoromance dialects. Nobody would deny its notability, and many living languages started their carreers the same way. A frequently used method of distinguishing natural languages from constructed languages is this: as soon as a language has second-generation native speakers, it cannot be classified any longer as a constructed language. However, no one would argue that this would be a condition for inclusion here. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 19:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting analogy. What does Wikipedia say about Romansh? "Romansh is not a single language but a group of closely-related dialects, all belonging to the family of the Rhaeto-Romance languages." And: "Romansh was standardised in 1982 by Zürich-based linguist Heinrich Schmid. The standardised language, called Rumantsch Grischun, has not been very well accepted, and speakers of the different dialects tend to address one another in German." Of course, Wikipedia has an article on Romansh - as it is considered an offical "language" of Switzerland and literature in the Engadine dialect exists since the 16th century. Where are the books IN Siberian? --Pan Gerwazy 11:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Tentative keep (I can't read Russian and can't evaluate all the sources), but please expand more on the "Volgota cultural group". It may not be notable enough for a separate article but it should be described a bit more in connection with this language. Presently there is just one sentence about the development of the modern standardization; most of the article seems to be about the various dialects from which this language was developed. Also, the various sources that Zolotaryov cites in this discussion and on the article's talk page should be integrated into the article itself as a References section. --Jim Henry 21:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and salt the earth. This article was already deleted once and rightly so. Nothing changed since. (И вообще, задолбали, в натуре.) -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 23:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, the article that was AfD'ed last time was a completely different article.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 23:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Delete the article includes no references or sources, only including external links, which fails WP:V. While time may be given to some articles to find sources, the fact that this has already been afd'd and uninamiously deleted weigh heavily against it. Am leaning towards speedy delete as one unsourced article about a topic could be argued as substansially similar to another, even if the unsourced information differs in the new article. Regards, MartinRe 23:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Where does WP:V say that external links don't count? This article contains 8 sources besides the link to the Volgota group's home page.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Further_reading.2Fexternal_links. Basically external links is an external "see also" section. If information in the article comes from one of the external links, it should be moved into a references/sources section and an appropiate note added to the information indicating which source it came from. Regards, MartinRe 15:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

All of the external links, unless I'm mistaken, are sources demonstrating that the thing discussed in the article exists. That being the case, this seems like more of a formatting problem than anything else. Yaroslav should fix it. How do you justify using deletion as a remedy, though?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 23:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: what does it mean [language] is standardised form of ...? Standardized by whom? There was similar AfD on artificial High Icelandic - the result was keep (per most of Icelanders here) but at least the text clearly defines status of the language. Pavel Vozenilek 01:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe correct expression should be "project of standardosation"? I am not sure what English word will be correct. In fact, Pomors have other project of standardization of Northern Russian, represented in Pomor site, very similiar to Siberian Language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I am very confused by Pavel's question. The intro to the article reads, "The Siberian language or Sibirskoj (сибирской говор) is standardised form of certain Northern Russian dialects. It was developed by the Volgota cultural group in 2005." What is the question, again?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Does the "Volgota cultural group" have formal or informal authority to standardize a language? That's the point. Pavel Vozenilek 23:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll answer with a question: the Kurdish language is definitely real and natural. Does any group has any formal authority in Syria or Turkey to standartise it? No, because those countries see it as threatening separatism. Does it make the Kurdish language any less real? Now the proposed Siberian language is just as real - it is based on real dialects that were never before put to writing. Who gives anyone any authority to use any language? It's anyone's freedom to use any language he wants. --Amir E. Aharoni 05:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And now the definition was changed to "constructed language", so question about authority has no meaning, conlang may be completely invented. Actually the opposite part tries to change discussion topic in all this AfD process. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep it. No way. I see no reasons to delete it. -- 82.209.xx.xx 12:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as shameless self-promotion. bogdan 20:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete. This is not a language but a artificial slang developed in LiveJournal blog of Yaroslav Zolotarev, ukranian separatist. This article was deleted from here and from ruwiki as this is not correct to write about "3 millions of native speakers". That's no more that yet another flashmod. Please do not refer to Meta discussion: this is all lie (I don't know why there're 15 'against' votes while I've seen 34 - I failed to locate this edit). There they insist on existance of 8 native speakers, but that's fake too. Edward Chernenko 14:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Edward, aren't you the same guy who promotes a plan for a "Padonki" Wikipedia? Padonki being, according to Wikipedia, "a subculture within the Russian-speaking Internet originating on Udaff, which is characterized by choosing alternative spellings for words for comic effect, as well as gratuitous use of profanity and a penchant for obscene subjects." It takes a lot of moxy to be for that but against this!—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that was reduction ad absurdum only. I have no personal interest in this idea and I'm not a proposer. Edward Chernenko 06:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The words "ukranian separatist" well demonstrate how educated is their author. Ukrainians have no need in separatism, they for long times are independent state. And I am not Ukrainian, though I have many friends Ukrainians, who like Siberian language. And the rest of message is lie, very refutable (ложь, легко опровержимая). --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. per Edward Chernenko. Elk Salmon 21:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. This is as valid as High Icelandic and Anglish. Few people use them, but they are clever people and their work has scientific value. It's more than original research and it's more than a stupid game - its creator acutally shows knowledge of Northern Russian dialectology (i studied it a little). --Amir E. Aharoni 21:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete vanity per bogdan. - FrancisTyers · 23:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I don't quite understand what's going on here. The Siberian language is an initiative on codification of certain Siberian talks (which I, and lots of others present don't know anything about), undertaken by some organisation (which I, and lots of others present don't know anything about). The article honestly states all this, and why should it be exactly deleted? Re-classified, possibly. Un-scholar, now? Let's see the scholar sources saying so. And there is such thing on en.wiki as an article about purely invented and quite possibly un-scholar Klingon_language. So? Yury Tarasievich 06:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

  So, it's about notability. There are only some blogs and forum threads, and promotion of SL in Wikipedia is a frequent subject of them. [1]. --Vladimir Volokhonsky 08:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• STRONGEST DELETE, this language is an original research "invented" by a small group of people supporting separatist movements in Siberia. Sources mr. Zolotaryov has provided do not prove his point of view. Also note the amount of meatpuppets. MaxSem 07:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. This "language" is a fake invented by Yaroslav Zolotaryov for his political intentions. It includes some real words from dialects of Russian used in Siberia, but most of its "dictionary" have no connection to Siberia, and even to Slavic languages. He lied several times that this language is natural, that there are millions of native speakers - no more trust for him, he is just a LIAR. MaxiMaxiMax 07:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

  And theese "some real words" are 13.000 in number. Please give one example of word "invented" by me. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete There are no such language, it's artificial creation of a small group of people. The sources provided is not about subject of this article. --Vladimir Volokhonsky 07:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

  Why are they not about subject? Volgota and siberian language mentioned in them. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. This language is nothing but fake. They claim they have more than 10000 words in dictionary, but actually they only heaped up various words in haste, without verifing root congruence: for example, "terrorist" is "страхолюд": "страх" + "люд", but there is no such word as "страх" in this "language", but "траш" instead. --Boleslav1 08:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Please see the official dictionary in the wiki and online dictionaries in Ukraine and Volgota. The word you cite is just the proof of non-artificial nature of the language - siberians have both roots, траш and страх, and they did not ask you from what root they must make the words))) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"Siberians" use normal russian language, nobody of sound mind would say "страхолюд" instead of "террорист". --Boleslav1 10:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, those who came from European Russia during industrialiazation, people who destroyed our nature, who made collectivization and privatization, people who destroyed our language and our traditional culture, yes, they speak russian. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous! My uncle come from forgotten village on Yenisei, he is siberian born and bred, his parents and ancestry lived there for a few centuries. Anyway, he speaks pure russian. Maybe you are talking about real natives - Chukchi, Evenk and others, but they have their own language. --Boleslav1 11:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

)))))) Very riduculous)))))) Centuries ago there was even NO RUSSIAN STANDARD, but dialects were very different, especcially different from Old Church Slavonic, in which modern standard is based. Give any refrences, but not false stories about your relatives))))))) You make me really laugh))))) What also you will say about your invented Enisey relatives?))) Maybe they invented Russian standard earlier than Lomonosov and Pushkin)))--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete as re-creation of deleted material per the first AFD and the susequent DRV. This is a constructed language of interest to a handful of people, who have apparently decided to use Wikipedia to promote their project.--Ezeu 09:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Not sure. Probably delete due to its non-notability outside Wikipedia. Keep If the article is kept, we should keep an eye on the article to avoid any possibility to turn it into a lying promotinal stuff of the invented language and the group behind it. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC), 01:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe dutch version of Jan may be taken as NPOV? He mentions POV of enemies of the language there, but he writes many about the language itself. Also, Jan is professional linguist and speaks about the thing professionaly. Maybe simply translate the Dutch version? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not that easy, but translation of the Dutch version would be interesting anyway. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"Sinds het voor het eerst werd gepubliceerd, heeft het Siberisch enige bekendheid verworven. De meningen over de taal zijn verdeeld: Oekraïense en Wit-Russische nationalisten verwelkomen het project. Hetzelfde geldt ook voor vertegenwoordigers van nationale minderheden binnen Rusland. Russische nationalisten aan de andere kant zijn fel tegen het project gekant. Beide kanten zien het Siberisch als een typische uiting van regionalisme, of zelfs van separatisme. Hierdoor heeft het project een uitgesproken politiek karakter gekregen en is het moeilijk tot een objectieve beoordeling van de taal zelf te komen" He writes that political discussions about the project make the founding of objective view hard, but the other part of his articles describes language features in neutral way. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Need to be reclassified as a dialect --Дмитрий Никитин—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.141.215.53 (talk • contribs) 09:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC).

It is not dialect. It is colang that uses some dialect words. Dialect is someting people speak, not someting that only exist in LJKneiphof 10:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

... that uses 13 000 dialect words)) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong deleate. The majoraty of keep-voters thinks that if Siberian is not a language, it can still be seen as dialect. The truth is, that it is neither real language, neither it is a dialect. It is not real language because it is a colang, invented in 2005. It is not known outside LJ. The references above the discussion are not fake, but they are not about this constructed language, but about real dialects of Siberia. Those dialects are spoken in villages, but not widely. So-called siberian language uses some words from this dialects, but it is still a colang. Nobody speaks it. I think you should note that MaxiMaxiMax voted "deleate". He is native Siberian himself, and he lives in Tomsk, one of the oldest cities of Siberia. And if he says that nobody speaks "siberian", I would rather believe him. Kneiphof 10:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

  ok, I am also Siberian who live in Tomsk, many members of Volgota live in Tomsk and Irkutsk. So if you found some admin from ruwiki, who vote against siberian language, it is not proof to anything --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep refs at least show it got serious media coverage. Hmm... I gotta invent Uralic language or something... Grue  12:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Grue, please look at these refs carefully. This Siberian language was invented in 2005, while the books wich are used as refs were published before. How can they be refs to the Siberian language if they are older than this language?!! These are the refs to the various siberian dialects. Kneiphof 15:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And this dialects were codified in the language... --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I meant of course the refs at the end of the article, not those at the top of this AfD. I am an inclusionist and if this "language" is mentioned by different media outlets, I consider it to be notable.  Grue  17:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep May be it's still not a real language, but it is definitely a widespread phenomenon. So it should be saved in Wikipedia - possibly just being re-categorized as "artificial language". --Shao 12:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

it's not a widespread phenomenon. It's just an unpopular slang that used by several people over internet. They have own community when they inventing this new 'language'. All of them presented in this poll. They just trying to make own language, which is just slang, like F, Zh languages etc. Elk Salmon 12:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And all that you have said is lie without any veriable refrences --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

hahaha, not all of us presented in this poll. Soon will be actions in Tomsk, and you shal see all of us:-) Long live Siberia! --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep - The deletetion is Russian Nazis' initiative. Russian Nazis against development of Siberian culture.--Kojpiš Anton 12:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

User has no prior edits.--Pan Gerwazy 11:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

He is from siberian incubator wiki. His edits: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Coipition%27Tong

Please withstand of russophobie here. Elk Salmon 12:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not russophobie, my belorussian friend speak about Russian Nayis who are against Siberian language, but not about russians in general --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This isn't any russophobie. I estabilish a fact, that Russian Nazis against Siberians.--Kojpiš Anton 00:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete, per Kneiphof. --Kaganer 13:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And 80% of opposition have come from ruwiki in last 24 hours) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ну дык! [2] --Yakudza 14:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I can translate the link provided by Yakudza - "Let us reveal awarenes, and quickly" (reveal awareness - this is Bolshevik slang when they want to accuse somebody) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Вероятно, они просто хотят завалить голосование количеством высираемого бреда))) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a problem with that? Do you normally discriminate people based on their origin? Are you a fascist?? Do your psycho childonian friends once again wish to "drown Muscovites in ther own blood"???? Guinness man 14:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem, this is politically motivated russian flashmob, and all)) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. No Zolotaryovian! The 'language' is a creation of some separatist aggressive lunatics remotely based on some very old obsolete Russian dialects. This crap does not represent neither Siberia nor Novgorod nor whatever else wild shit they claim to represent. This is not a zilch more credible than Padonki. No Padonki means no Zolotaryovian. Guinness man 14:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG DELETE: I wonder how this subject is again on discussion, probably people who allow it didn’t even devote a day to researching this language. Its an invented language by a couple of russophobs (or even only one). The "siberian language" is a fantasy which is only based on different dialects all over Siberia (just look at area of it and imagine how many EU countries fit in it).i underline the word DIFFERENT as sometimes met in one village is not met in another (due to very local dialect) Sometimes its not even a dialects it’s a word or phrases used in a single village for a generation or two and noticed nowhere exept that place (its like a “local slang” if we say it modern in words. But Zolotorev makes it a point even if it was used only on 0,1% of Siberian territory and only by around hundred of people living in a village (I probably will insult Zolotarev saying that every yard has its own slang but whatever). Also many of this language is based on phrases of uneducated population and what is presented by Zolotarev as a grammar or phrase building structure due to cutting endings or putting them in to the wrong plague. The bases of all this Zolotorev’s insanity is an old russian (which is no longer used and which was used ALL OVER RUSSIA and not only in Siveria), and when this platform is not enough - mr. Zolotarev takes an Ukrainian language and invents smth from this. As a greatest development of fantasy mr Zolotorev even was thinking of giving Siberean an arabian writing, but I think now he had to give it up coz its “too much”. Also some sources given here by zolotorev are not standing on his point of view or even sometimes made with his cooperation (web sources). I ask mr.Zolotarev not to comment my message (he wont get an answer anyway) because i'm sick enough of his lifejournal messages asking to vote for keeping his language fantasy in wikipedia and I will not devote my time for discussing his fantasies. 213.171.61.131 14:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)Jaroslav S.

And we have test wiki of 1500 articles, and 10 writers write there in this "invented Old Russian" Siberian wikipedia now is the best wiki in incubator --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• STRONG KEEP. 212.40.42.166 14:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG DELETE per Kneiphof. Serebr 15:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
  • User made 6 edits.  Grue  18:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I am from Russian Wiki (Анатолий) -- Serebr 14:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP. Its typical moskovian fobia. They told the same about ukrainian language earlier. They told and even now tolk, that ukrainian is non native language just austro-hungary project.
• STRONG DELETE Andrey Fedichkin 17:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - My keep is neither strong nor weak. It's just a keep per Amir E. Aharoni Flying Jazz 17:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG DELETE per Kneiphof. Vlad2000Plus 17:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG COMMENT. People, this is nót the place to fight a world war! This is nót the place for Russian nationalists and Siberian separatists to decide upon the future of Russia. This is an encyclopedia. All that should matter is the question: is the subject significant enough to warrant an article? The emotions that it seems to evoke in certain circles seem like a good indication that the language is perhaps a tad more notable than the average conlang (which definitely would not evoke such reactions). For the record, I think all the campaigning around this AfD is a Bad Thing: trying to whip up support in the Russian wiki (where the article was voted down) and among people who voted for deletion previous, is surely not a very elegant thing to do! Oh, and please, STOP WRITING IN CAPITALS, because it reminds pretty much of shouting. Which is not very elegant either. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 18:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Vreemd, jij bent de enige waarvan ik tekst in hoofdletters zie. (of adden 'k ik dit int West-Vlams moetn srievn?)--Pan Gerwazy 11:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, nonnotable conlang without ISO 639 code. Angr 18:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.5.46.19 (talk • contribs).
• delete wikipedia, save Ochkarik 04:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP. Even if it is just a constructed language, it is at least a notable phenomenon. Gwarnik 09:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP 85.202.213.101 09:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• DELETE per Kneiphof and Angr. --Pan Gerwazy 10:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment One of Yaroslav Zolotaryov's sources (http://lab.org.ua/article/727/) has the protagonist of the language Dmitry Werkhoturov say "Может быть, к концу своей жизни я и услышу живой сибирский язык." Perhaps, at the end of my life I will even be able to hear living Siberian language. (Yes, "will be able" because he uses the perfective verb) This is what this is about. Irpen is right, this should be Siberian dialect or plain Siberian. It is not a language.--Pan Gerwazy 11:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I have just renamed the article into "Siberian language project", hopefully it's not a violation of any policy. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy (as far as I know) against renaming articles mid-AfD. In any case, my rationale to delete the article still stands. The project is non-notable. --Ezeu 19:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Your reason looks quite sensible. I changed my vote from "keep" to "not sure". Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 01:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Looks like a sufficiently notable conlang in that it has generated substantial press attention. All of you Russian/Siberian fellows, could you please discuss the merits of this conlang on the article talk page and not here? Sandstein 17:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP I'm sure it's really free encyclopedia, so i think we need to find the motivation of both sides in this qeustion. The motivation of delete'rs is not very clear, but the motivation of keep'rs is just to respect own native language. Remember - nation is alive until language is alive. We have no any rights to kill this language, anyone of us. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bluz (talk • contribs).
• Strong delete This is not real language, it was compilated from most "non-russian pronounced" dialectic words of different Russian regions. Nobody said this langauge using currently codified combination of words. Every russian may understand most of talks of regions - but Siberian is strongly understandable by many native Russian from cities and from far regions.--ShurShur, from ruwiki 21:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - with all the sources in Russian, this simply cannot be verified and, as such, fails WP:V and is not suitable for the English Wikipedia. BlueValour 02:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Like I said earlier: Frankly, I can't see why the references must necessarily be in English. Is there any policy regarding that? If so, I'd be very unpleasantly surprised, as it would show utter disregard for the non-Anglosaxon rest of the world! It would be strange if we would apply a similar policy in the Dutch wikipedia (in fact, in a similar discussion about High Icelandic we didn't even complain about all references being in Icelandic!). In any case, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who know enough Russian to be able to confirm the sources. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 07:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In fact I do not know, if the majority of votes is rellevant in this discussion. You can see - almost every Russian votes "delete", every ukrainian and belorussian "keep". Everybody knows, that amount of Russians is greater, than amount of ukrainians and belorussians. But is this vote about amount of Russians in wikipedia or about the article? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong support pbato I have to say my full support to STRONG COMMENT published by Iron Jan. This language really needs to be noticeable by article, if such discussions are called by it.

• STRONG KEEP . Just the existance of such phrase in several sources prompts for an article that would define them, explain, describe. This phenomena EXISTS. So the article on it has all right to exist too. It is disputable, of course, how to define and describe the phenomena, but we can not deny the existance for it. Only this extensieve discussion is already a proof. If there is such a strong opposition to something - it can not be caused by meaningless stuff. And I guess why some people here oppose... but Russia is changing too. Whether they want it or not. And the best way to deal with it - to get involved into this change, my friends...--Oleh Petriv 16:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Edward Chernenko. --Nikolay Kolpakov 18:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per MartinRe and Angr. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. A set of words is not a language. --CodeMonk 20:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

1) Siberian is set of texts but not set of words 2) this argument is irrelevant to discussion. When russians will cease talk here about politics, about their relatives from Siberian vilages, etc? The voting is about notability of conlang. All the proofs about it's notablity are given. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It's more than a set of words. It's also a complete grammar with roots in actual spoken dialects and a bunch of text, translated and even a few original ones. In its current state the grammar is incomplete and somewhat haphazard, but its ideas has undeniable scientific roots. --Amir E. Aharoni 17:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• STRONG KEEP. But I also strongly recommend to modify the article in view of the neutrality concept. Maksym Ye. 09:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Current edition was filled with politics by russian "editors". I strongly propose restore Nat Krause's version, which was politically neutral, and linguistically more interesting, than to read all this accusations. Is it interesting for english-speaking reader to see all this shit about "anti-russian" language in the article? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Yaroslav, this your claim is just another quite fine illustration of your deeds. Nat Krause's descriptions were not changed (except at the single insignificant place). Only your deceitful promo texts were corrected. Despite you didn't write that exactly that those "russian editors" were changing Nat Krause's text, you wrote is a way that one would think so. It's so of you... Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 15:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I mean just this phrase "Unfortunately, ...", etc. This is your POV, it is related with politics, and you want to include it into linguistic article. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this interesting linguistic approach is significantly corrupted by the "anti-Moscovite" agenda and ties with proclamation of "Siberian independence". This is clearly expressed your political Volgota-phobic POV. What does it do in the linguistic article? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand that it is quite resonable to have links to generally unknown project from Wikipedia: it helps to the Page Rank a lot. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 16:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Volgota has rather big Page Rank and you can see this in propriate places, Best way for reader to get acquainted with the language more is to jump to it's main site; however, I do not insist that link to Volgota site should be included in the article. Let your greed be your own sin) I am discussing only the political shit in mouthes of russian "voters" who do not know what are they speaking about, but have come here to save Mother Russia, and those accusations in the article, which you so strongly want to include --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm Slav, and your "Siberian" language is quite comprehensible to me. Aren't these and these YOUR own words on the main page of your project at Incubator?! (Translation: "July 17 - Independence Day. July 17, 1918 The Siberian State passed Declaration of Siberian Sovereignity. ... Hail Siberia!") Is this about linguistics?! Whom are you trying to cheat?! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 08:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This is russian paranoia at play))) What relation has word "Long live Siberia!" in siberian wikipedia to the description of the conlang? I did not write anything about politics in the article, but russians did. So all this political aspect here is only your guilt. Please acknowledge, that all your speeches here is lie, and you have only one motivation, only one goal - you fear Siberians, you fear Free Siberia. So you want to bring your politics, your fear even to this non-political article. My friend Xcobo, he is Lojban lover, said in his LJ about all this "discussion" - "if this is simple non-notable conlang, even simple conlang like Lojban and Esperanto, so why had they come with so big accusations in big amount? They simply feel the strange power of this Language and they fear it". Such were words of non-wikipedic and non-Siberian person about all this meeting, which was prepared by ruwiki in best traditions of Stalin's "judgements". Go back to your Russia, bring your hands back from Siberian Language! --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

you have many articles in ruwiki, glorifying Russia, and I do not come to the article "Russian language", and do not write in it - Unfortunately, Russian language was language of cursed Empire, tool for killing dissidents and opressing nations, but you shamelessly did this in article about Siberian. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This is about linguistics. The work on the language is linguistic work and not just a bunch of words with funny spelling. If you think that this is also a political issue, then you just can't get a joke.

Someone said that "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy" (maybe it was Uriel Weinreich, but i am not sure.) I don't think that Mr. Zolotaryov has an army and a navy to fight for Siberian independence, so don't you worry about his little jokes about it. --Amir E. Aharoni 09:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that is not a joke. Further readings (about army, by the way :-) ): These are Yaroslav Zolotaryov's words too (at the main page of Siberian Wikipedia Incubator): "January 29 - Day of Siberian Army. On January 29, 1918 squads of the Free Siberian Army began to be formed. Let's make 10 000 articles in Siberian Wikipedia before the Day of Siberian Armed Forces! Hail Siberia!" Ok. And the fact that "Volgota" means "Liberty" is just another so-called "linguistic joke". And after that you dare to say that Yaroslav doesn't have any political agenda! :-/. If his project was a pure linguistic one, it wouldn't meet such a strong opposition. I suppose it's quite wrong to allow him to hide his political agenda by "linguistics". There's no strong opposition against Zaliznyak's Old Novgorodian Language. Guess, why. :-/ Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 10:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

But the article is not about political aspects, even if they would be. So you want to bring politics in non-political affairs, and write your political POV in the linguistic article --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Your Siberian language project is just a mean of your political movement, and therefore it can't be kept alone. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 10:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

So you own recognize, that fearing political aspects of the language, you had come here to lie about it, and all your russian votes is in fact against Siberian independece, but not against the article. But Siberian independence is not discussed in original article, that were you who began discuss it there and in this discussion. There was nothing about politics in Nat's variant, so please restore NPOV version. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No way. I think, there's no chance that the discussed article will be turn into the promo-page of your non-notable (outside Wikipedia) conlang. As for me, prove that even single my word is wrong, before saying that I'm lying. :-/ Anyway, the judge is the community. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 10:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

But you think it should be turned into promo page of Russian imperialism:-) I have proved everything, and I have answered to everything, even to the political accusations, though they are completely irrelevant. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No problems. As I said above, the judge is the community. And despite your activity may hide the reality for a short, eventually the truth will come to the light. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And this truth was already revealed by neutral particpants like Jan, Amir, etc. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• delete. notability/verifiability problem. A linguistics-related article cannot be based solely on publications in second-rate newspapers and websites (and author's site). This is not a "Hurricane Catrina" news stuff. This is science, which should be verified by experts in the area, not by paparazzi and bloggers. Mukadderat 18:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What should verify this science? Notability of conlang? It is notable, which is verified by this newspaper publications --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• strong delete. Was deleted in russian wikipedia too. --Morpheios Melas 13:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

... And was not deleted in 6 wikipedias, 4 official, 2 incubator wikipedias ... --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. —Khoikhoi 00:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

More about "non-notable conlang". This is song in Siberian Standard, translation of "We shall overcome" http://volgota.com/muzika/overcomesib.mp3 Our friends from Sweden have recorded it. After a week will be Volgota Congress in Tomsk, so we shall have more links to newspapers, and maybe some scientific publications. Some people from other Siberian cities and from siberian emigration to EU already have plane tickets. This is objective process of demorcatization in Russia, of democratization in language too. And band of conservators can not stop it by lie and by nationalistic flashmobes. Your time is passed, and our time is coming. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, once more: Different dialects in Siberia DO definitely exist. But your Siberian language IS definitely a conlang. It is incorrect to use references to works on Siberian dialects as if they were on your Siberian conlang. It seems to be clear enough... Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It is quite correct, language Standard is based on them and every Northern dialect speaker can recognize the words. Just your opression makes the language movement more political - you opress by unknown reasons, so members of the movement became more angry. You can see in Wiki just top leaders of linguistic department, but in reality this is wide international movement, so all your efforts is in vain. Will the article be in wikipedia, or will not be, will be siberian wiki or will not be, this is objective process, it will develop anyway. One of my ukrainian friends tried to explain this to you already. After a week it will be liturgy in Siberian language in Tomsk, we have priests, and we have intention to make the language sacral --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"All your base are belong to us", er? :-) Please understand that Wikipedia is not a place for promotion of the new projects (and neither for fighting the project too). Wikipedia should just contain correct verifiable information. As and if the project is notable enough, it will be included into the Wikipedia for sure. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 10:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

But I do not promote it in fact the other side tries to kill article about language widely disputed everwhere, and you do this by evident dirty tricks like changung the topic of discussion to politics or to discussing Siberian --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If you really don't try to promote the project, please keep silence and don't touch the article. If the project is really notable, the article will live without your intervention. If your target is not to promote the project, just don't promote, and let the community decide what to do; it's that easy! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I only answer to you silly questions. All the promotion is done by hordes from ruwiki, which were invited from Community Portal of ruwiki, and cry all kinds of nonsense here. Please cease lie and cease change topic of the article, and I shall cease to answer you, this is very simple. You just want to include the politics in the article in order that the article will look like article promoting political movement when this is only article about language standardization project --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The article about politic project should reveal it, not hide. Period. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 12:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

So you 1) change the topic of the article to promotion 2) appeal to delete it as promo-article. This is your tactics --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And this "All your base are belong to us" is just about you. Discussion proves that you only repeat some words like spell, but you even do not know their meaning, words like "conlang, dialect, language standard" etc. Every linguist involved in the discussion tried to explain their meaning for you, but you simply repeat them again and again, hoping that "judge is community", as you have said. Actually you want only force the community to delete article, repeating the same flood in the discussion. You wait that people will get tired of this and they will close the discussion. This funny tactics can only damage ruwiki reputaion in russian net-community, and in other discussions, not about siberian, already damaged it. You can read a lot of critics about wikipedia in russian LJ just because you did this thing in similiar way in other discussions. Maybe it is time to stop it? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You are quite wrong thinking that I know few about conlangs and Russian dialects. You say "every linguist"? Ok, every linguist sees differences in scientific approaches (that you claim to be useless, putting a huge resources in Tomsk State University (one that you attended) to null) and those you use. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 12:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And I do not see this russian liguists, who are against me, here, only some western linguists trying explain something to you, and angry guy DrBug, who do not want to cease write offtopic and very-very want to fill linguistic article with political accusations --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Please give one example of "invented" word, please give it)))--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It's just another illustration of your manners. Conlang is not necessary consist of words that nobody has ever used. And I've already pointed that. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 10:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And this is another illustration of your hypocrisy. Language is based in dialects - this is real thesis which you can not disprove. Being not able to disprove you simply repeat some slogans for a week, and this tactics is stupid and evident --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And where's the hypocrisy? In a statement that "Siberian language" is invented by you? that the fact it uses some natural words doesn't turn it into a natural language? Hm. If this is hypocrisy, the Earth is flat. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

All the words it used is natural, and you continuosly try to change disscussion topic only for prohibit the article --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Your group even filled Meta with totally stupid promotion to open wiki in Padonki slang - such was you fear of Siberian Language --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

My group?! Sorry, I don't have any group. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You supported them. Please cease attempts to change discussion topic --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's you who should cease arrogating crimes to me. The discussion became boring, anyway. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

So let us stop the discussion, it is irrelevant to the topic and it goes to nowhere, only to increasing of hate between us. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd happy to stop the discussion per se. But as a person who knows something about a topic, I have to point your incorrect statements to persons who know less on it. As soon as you stop writing incorrect statements, I'll stop commenting here. Here's an incomplete list of facts that you try to conceal:

1. The Siberian language project is your (together with few dozens of active supporters, most or all of whom are not linguists) project to construct a language (conlang) based on real Russian dialects spoken in different places of Siberia (by Chaldons and others).
2. You (and your group) are "Siberian" nationalist(s) (some are anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalists), and the Siberian language project is a part of your efforts to create preconditions for separating Siberia from Russia (leaving it our of control of government of Russian Federation).
3. The Siberian language project is considered non-scientific by many linguists.
4. The Siberian language project is young, and created in 2005 only. References to publications before this date can't be used as sign of notability of the project.

It's that easy! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 12:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And you may repeat all this fantasies 10 000 times, they will not become true, but shameless lie. Why do you repeat them more and more? You are not sure in them yourself perhaps? All this is lie, and I have already answered to this. So you believe that constantly repeated lie became truth? I do not believe so. Please stop speak nonsense irrelevant to discussion --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And the last sentence is top of russian argumentation here))))))))))) How can we use refrences to publications about the project before date when project starts))))))))))) We only use refrences about dialect on which it is based of course))))))))))))) You do flood only for admins that they stop the discussion --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Just look at the very beginning of this discussion. Where Alex writes that 'There is no published books on this "language"' (clearly about your Siberian language project), and you response that "This is lie." and cite a number of books about Russian dialects, not your Siberian language project. This your normal way of discussions. Ok, I'm sure that others are able to read and to find your misinformation. I don't think it's reasonable to argue with you directly. But if any really neutral mediator is interested in finding the truth between us, welcome! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 16:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If any definitely neutral user will ask me, I will provide citations for all the statements above. You wrote too much in internet, Yaroslav, so it's too late to try to hide. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 12:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss this in talk page of the article --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be very interesting for me to discuss every sentence of proposed article, this is my project, but not in this place, because you do not discuss the notability, but content --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It was you who started to talk about changes in the article's content. But ok, it doesn't matter. To make the discussion clear, could you please sum up below all the statements that you consider to be illustrations of the notability of the project? Please don't put here references to books published before you started you work on this project or other weakly related stuff. Please put here only facts directly related to the project, such as a number of people directly involved in creation of the language descriptions (core team), which conferences were held and when and number of their attendees, and so on. Also you may wish to expose your and your team credentials to the public. It may help to the community to make a right decision. Despite I'm sure in all these things that I wrote above, I'm quite interested in establishing as more correct facts about the project that may help to Wikipedia. Thank you in advance. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 16:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the refrences about project itself were given in the article. Some of them were removed by the oppisite part. I can discuss about those removed refrences for example and prove that they hav relation to the project. But according to wikimedia polices, if something was mentioned in the press, the article sholud be. But you only speak about politics, about dialects etc, when your friends try to take refrences from the article, that's all. All your speeches in this place are only demagogia with one goal - change the topic of the discussion when the answer is clear: the project is mentioned in press and the article should be in wiki --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Yaroslav, I'm talking about notability (as per your own request). So don't run away! Please put here precise list of clear and strong statements illustrating notability of your project. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 17:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NFT policy only prohibits OR and unverifiable info, but we provide about 9 links not from my blog and not from my site, and not from any other blogs. Your friend deleted 3 of them, but 6 of them even your politically motivated friends can not delete. So if it was mentioned in press (and will be mentioned more in the next month), it is notable --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

So will you anytime discuss this refrences, but not to talk here about your politics and about your opinion on the language? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Yaroslav, first: they are not my friends. By the way, I would mention, that originally my vote was "keep", and only after discussion here I changed it to "not sure".
Now, please confirm that you mean the following links (then I will disclose their content to the public, and the community will then decide whether or not they indicate the notability):

• (APN news agency, positive)

Three screefuls article is devoted to idea of decentralistion of Russia and turning it into a weak union of independet regions. The only mention of Siberian laguage project is following: "Так что сегодняшние «виртуальные» эксперименты по реконструкции, к примеру, сибирского языка можно только приветствовать." ("So current "vitrual" experiments to reconstruct a Siberian language may be only saluted."; "Siberian language" links to Volgota site.) It can't be considered as a coverage of the project in a press.

• kazakh web paper dialog.kz Verhoturov (Kazakhstan article, positive)

An article about Volgota project and Zolotaryov. Siberian language project is mentioneed as a part of the movement. As for the "Dialog.KZ" site, it is on-line-only resource, and I'm not sure that it should be considered as a public mass media.

• (Ukrainian article, positive)
• (Tomsk news agency Inform Tomica, positive)
• (Ural tatar artıcle, positive)
• ("Zavtra" russian nationalst newspaper, call to destroy Volgota group)
• Kasparov Ru article, very positive, speaking about violence of human rights and prohibiting Siberian language in Russia.
• "Russian Journal", main net-magazine of Russian Internet Community, discussing contents of test sibwiki -

Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 07:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is our links, Volgota, or language mentioned in this articles--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reconsidered my close of this AFD, and have relisted it for further discussion. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete I'm a fan of conlanging, but this strikes me more as an attempt to promote a private project than as a writeup of a notable conlang. POV and weasel words just add to the problem. Ergative rlt 22:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Perplexed Question - I've read this AfD discussion twice, and I still don't know what the hell is going on. here is the russian wikipedia article; I have no idea what that says, but it's pretty obvious that the article is in trouble on that wiki. A bigger issue is, what should be the normal procedure when clearly the majority of the productive writing is going to take place in the Russian wiki? Isn't it most reasonable (at least for this article) for the EN wiki to just follow their lead? My Alt Account 23:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately no - that would be like using the Persian wiki as a reference for information about Israel. Most Russians really hate it when someone gets funny ideas about their language and will dismiss them on sight. --Amir E. Aharoni 23:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, this doesn't really answer my question. I've no doubt that many Russians are very nationalistic, and some of these let it get in the way of logic. But the plain fact is there are obviously hardly any non-Russian, native English speakers who can even evaluate the sources on this article. It seems like a waste of time for us to even debate it. Either way, we are relying on the explanations of fellow wikipedians who can read the sources. My Alt Account 00:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I try to help as much as i can. My native language is Russian, but i live in Israel and i am very far from being a Russian nationalist. I support Siberian language out of linguistic curiosity (linguistics is my major) and the political cause of Volgota is of little interest to me. As i mentioned earlier in the discussion, this is a conlang developed by a small group, but it is rather more than Esperanto or Slovio - this actually aims at becoming spoken as a revived natural language. Thus i find it linguistically valid, albeit rather haphazard at the time. Think of it as a language developed by a wikimob instead of a commitee. The times they are a-changing. --Amir E. Aharoni 05:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Obviously, this constructed language is a key component of a political movement, which itself makes both the language and the movement notable. (How many non-notable political movements devise their own language?) —optikos 04:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.