Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NKVD massacres of prisoners

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus. Mailer Diablo 12:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NKVD massacres of prisoners

I've put up this article for deletion for the following reasons:

1. This stub does not list any facts that would justify a stub. IMO, before creating an acticle that groups similar events, one should first create separate articles describing each of those events.
2. And yes, there is already an acticle on Katyn Massacre. Got more?
3. There is absolutely no factual base under what's stated in this stub.

Zealander 05:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep, this article could be easily improved, no need to delete it. {{cleanup}} is sufficient. MaxSem 09:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Needs cleanup but the subject is perfect for wikipedia. Ydam 10:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete POV fork. In its current state, it is hopeless. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, remove POV, and Move to a better title. As said below, the title is too generic and title such as "1941 NKVD executions of Polish prisoners" would be more appropriates. I insist that POV still has to be removed! Strong Delete. POV material, no sources and redundant with Katyn massacre as well, for a lesser extent, with a few other articles. And its content is so desperately POV I can't even think of a merge... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 11:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep--Molobo 11:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is an example :Richard Rhodes describes the NKVD evacuation murders of imprisoned political enemies in his book on Ensatzgruppen killings, Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust:

“Despite the deportations, Barbarossa surprised the NKVD, whose jails and prisons in the invaded western territories were crowded with political prisoners. Rather that release their prisoners as they hastened to retreat during the first week of the war, the Soviet secret police had simply slaughtered them. NKVD prisoner executions in the first week after Barbarossa totaled some ten thousand in the western Ukraine and more than nine thousand in Vinnitsa, eastward toward Kiev; comparable numbers of prisoners were executed in eastern Poland, Byelorussia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. These areas had already sustained losses numbering in the hundreds of thousands from the Stalinist purges of 1937-38. “It was not only the numbers of the executed,” historian Yury Boshyk writes of the evacuation murders, “but also the manner in which they died that shocked the populace. When the families of the arrested rushed to the prisons after the Soviet evacuation, they were aghast to find bodies so badly mutilated that many could not be identified. It was evident that many of the prisoners had been tortured before death; others were killed en masse.” In some cases, cells crowded with prisoners had been dynamited, badly mutilating the remains.” As you see this wasn't the Katyn Massacre.--Molobo 14:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Appleseed (Talk) 12:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as per the missed arguments of the nominator. 1) and 2): this is not about the Katyn massacre, but about the Soviet cleaning-up of their prisons during and immediately after the German invasion. Then, the factual base could indeed be added and the article needs expansion. However, I have yet to see a well-referenced stub... Most of stubs are just that: stubs to be expanded and sourced. //Halibutt 12:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep —Morning star 13:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Hello from Turkey! (weırd Turkısh keyboard) KNewman
• Delete as there's nothing here which couldn't be said better somewhere else. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as this could be expanded and is a valid topic. Tyrenius 16:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep if references are provided. Otherwise just merge with the much better and well-referenced Treatment_of_the_Polish_citizens_by_the_occupants#Treatment_of_Polish_citizens_under_Soviet_occupation. Note also that Massacre of prisoners is a redirect to this article, surely it should be transformed into a disambig.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: misleading title (covers only Poland), NKVD was more structures than just a single abbreviation, no refs, redundant, not properly categorised, low quality Pavel Vozenilek 19:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
• Merge content as suggested by Piotr then delete from article space without redirect. Capitalistroadster 10:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep: references are provided Mieciu K 22:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
• Comment to all whom it may concern: I referenced some of the more notable cases. It is currently one of the best-referenced stubs out there. //Halibutt 12:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

And unsurprisingly, not a single reference from non-Polish sources. How curious... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 13:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

And interestingly, not a single biased reference... Grafikm, I know you don't like Polish sources, but it's not enough to question them. If I have time I will expand the article to include also English-language sources from the Google Books. However, I did my best to do as much as I can as quickly as I could. If that's not enough for a stub - then perhaps I should re-read WP:STUB. //Halibutt 13:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is not only referencing, but the POV style too ("execution" is preferable to "massacre"). And most important, the title is too broad, because it deals with only a specific period of time and a specific place. Maybe it should be moved to something more precise, "1941 NKVD executions of Polish prisoners", or something like that... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 13:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to make you more happy I also added two non-Polish sources. As to the moving of this article - I wouldn't oppose, but take note that the proper way to do it is through WP:MOVE and not through WP:AfD. Now that the rationale for your Strong delete vote has been proven absurd would you reconsider changing your mind? //Halibutt 14:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I adjusted my vote accordingly. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 14:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. As to the vocabulary - feel free to adjust it, though take note that the sources use even stronger words than the ones that are currently in the article. Slaughter anyone? //Halibutt 14:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I started a discussion on a possible move of the article on its talk page. Please participate. //Halibutt

• Strong Delete: how can you even call this an article? research through reliable sources before putting it on wikipedia.--Lenev 21:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

And which sources are unreliable? The most popular Polish language encyclopaedia, the Institute of National Remembrance report or the English-language books? //Halibutt 22:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Rename to NKVD massacres of Polish prisoners or strongly expand to include all the mass-executions by NKVD abakharev 23:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say Be Bold :) //Halibutt 09:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say let's wait for the consensus on the talk page before moving it :) -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 09:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I meant expansion, not the moving thing. //Halibutt 10:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah OK, no problem :) -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 11:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.