Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matt Vogel, Jennifer Barnhardt, Eric Jacobson

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. -- BD2412 ^talk 05:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Matt Vogel, Jennifer Barnhardt, Eric Jacobson

Three articles about non-notable Jim Henson company puppeteers. Google searches for Mr. Vogel, Ms. Barnhardt and Mr. Jacobson return 493, 87, and 550 hits, respectively. Cautionary note to anyone who wants to do their own searches: these names are quite common, and searching for the subjects' names without the addition of '+"Sesame Street"' or something along those lines pulls ups dozens of tax attorneys and girls college volleyball players. Interesting ying/yang of hell and heaven there, but I digress. Fernando Rizo T/C 03:21, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, they are performers with an enormous audience. Also Miss Piggy, Big Bird, Oscar the Grouch etc are highly notable, how much bigger roles do you want from a puppetteer? Kappa 03:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
  • That's what I'm trying to tell you brother; I don't think puppeteers are notable above and beyond the big ones like Jim Henson and Dick Cheney (<-- JOKE!). Fernando Rizo T/C 03:42, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Kappa, that's a down-right pointless definition of fame. By this reasoning any person who is ever featured in a major movie even if just for a fraction of a second, has "an enormous audience". You're conjuring up definitions to back your vote. It's supposed to be the other way around. / Peter ^Isotalo 13:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Well I note that in this case the enormous audience is actually paying attention to what the performers are doing, and watching for several complete seconds or longer. Kappa 13:47, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
        • When "several complete seconds or longer" is the only thing to separate "notable" from "non-notable", you've clearly lost touch with reality. Or at least believe that Wikipedia shouldn't be bothered with such nuisances. / Peter ^Isotalo 14:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Having your hand in the backside of beloved children's characters isn't quite encyclopedic enough. Paul 03:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. All three have reasonably substantial IMDB entries. Jennifer Barnhart (note the spelling) also performed in the Tony award-winning Avenue Q. There are entire classes of creative contributors who are ignored here (animators are another; most pages here seem to be based on the idea that cartoons draw themselves) even though their work is notable. Monicasdude 04:17, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep; Strong Keep for Eric Jacobson, whose roles are more notable than the other two, if I can judge from the articles themselves. They're actors. The puppets don't run themselves when you stick your hand in the backside. Bunchofgrapes 04:31, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep notable performers. — mendel ☎ 05:12, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as notable. 23skidoo 07:10, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep but change all of them to start "n is a muppet performer..." what a great lead line (only joking). Alf ^melmac 09:40, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. As per nominator and Paul. / Peter ^Isotalo 13:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep these guys are notable, especially Jacobsen who performs some very big parts. Also when people write that the puppeteers "perform" these characters dont they mean they do their voices as well as pulling the strings (or however they animate them) etc.? that is my impression and I wonder if its something that some of the people who have voted delete above do not realise.
• Keep all per IMDB entries. (Move Jennifer Barnhardt to Jennifer Barnhart). Side note: Don't trust Google too much on this. Puppeteers work mostly behind the scenes, so have less of a fanbase and thus less googles dedicated to them. - Mgm|^(talk) 21:01, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep all, non-notability not established by nominator. —RaD Man (talk) 21:11, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I was trying to infer that with the Google hits. Apologies for the subtlety. Fernando Rizo T/C 21:46, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, nn. You'll have to forgive Kappa, he's under the bizarre impression that every single fashion model who has ever appearered in print is notable, so these people would certainly qualify under his odd interpretation. Zoe 23:59, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Please don't misrepresent my beliefs. Kappa 03:18, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Kappa, saying your an inclusionist isn't a misrepresentation, you have something of a reputation on VfD. However, I saw that you did finally vote Delete on Yellowikis today. Congratulations my friend, in the words of Obi Wan Kenobi, you've taken your first step into a larger world. Remind me to buy that lottery ticket ;-)Karmafist 03:25, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Normally I don't have to bother voting delete, because there are plenty of eager deletionists to do it for me, they seem to enjoy it. Kappa 09:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Your vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Janelle Pierzina 2 clearly says "nationally published models are notable". Zoe 04:26, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
      • "nationally published models" are not "every single fashion model who has ever appeared in print". Cyrus Farivar is regularly published in national-level publications, not just a once-off in a pamphlet. He's still not really notable, but he's here. Kappa 09:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
      • remove personal attack by Radman1 User:Zoe|^(talk) 05:15, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete or Redirect into their respective muppets. They're nn on their own. BTW, I think Zoe's definition of Kappa's deletion standards is a bit restrictive: the day he votes delete on something, i'm gonna buy a loterry ticket because I know it's a day for astronomically rare occurences. Karmafist 03:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Please don't misrepresent my voting patterns. Kappa 03:18, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
    • See above. You've got to lighten up, my friend. I say what I said because often it seems that people see your votes not because of what you think, but because of your reputation. I cannot speak for Zoe, but I do not intend my words with malice, because your replies to my comments sound like they have been. For that, I apologize for any miscommunication. Karmafist 14:09, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• merge disputed articles into an article on muppets---CH (talk) 04:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep all per Monicasdude. —Cryptic (talk) 06:21, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Gamaliel 07:55, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, among the most notable people in their field. Aquillion 07:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as per Aquillion above. utterly notable. Most puppeteers would kill for the chance of animating muppets. This is exactly the sort of article Wikipedia is most useful for. Vizjim 11:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Comment I'm curious, but does anyone thing that it's ironic that there has been a lack of sockpuppet votes on this article due to its subject? Please BJAODN this comment if you'd like. Karmafist 14:19, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as per Monicasdude and similar comments. Hall Monitor 20:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to Muppet. The characters are notable to millions, but I'm not persuaded that their primary puppeteers are notable -- or even heard of at all -- outside the community of puppeteers. (No Larry Niven jokes needed here.) Nor are these the only people to operate these characters; see several touring companies of "Muppets on Ice", "Baby Muppets", etc. Barno 22:31, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and expand. As Monicasdude pointed out, they have been part of significant roles in Sesame Street, have respectible resumes -- & IMDB entries. (And correct spelling to Jennifer Barnhart.) If a band is on Almusic, it gets listed; shouldn't IMDB be used in the same way? Or is Paul correct above, & there is no such thing as a puppeteer worth listing in an encyclopedia? -- llywrch 23:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
• Comment Barno, excellent point. Anyone having any association whatsoever with something notable does not become notable, and I hope this point is incorporated into the policy on deletion/inclusion. Paul 06:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect as per Barno, but no one tell me that these folks aren't real actors! This vote does not deny their contribution; it just acknowledges the fact that few people will search using their names and that the content will fit easily into Muppet. --Jacqui M Schedler 02:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.