Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 November 30

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 14:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Grand Lodges recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England

List of Grand Lodges recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This very minor list is being misused as an advertising vehicle (causing it to have false information), and there is a growing concern that this list is non-maintainable and of too wide a scope to be useful. Were it to be pared down to its smallest incarnation, it would then simply be a rewritten copyvio of the official recognition page of UGLE. MSJapan 23:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete per CSD A3. Sr13 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. ReverendG 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - this list is composed primarily of links to external websites for lodges which are probably non-notable. Wikipedia is not a web directory. --Hyperbole 01:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per everyone. Sigh. --Natalie 02:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep not really, I don't find this to be non-maintainable at all. Atlantis Hawk 03:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps it is maintainable, but whatabout the other points raised in the nom?--67.85.183.103 05:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above--67.85.183.103 05:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:NOT a directory, listcruft. Terence Ong 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Advertising isn't really what masons do. Remove the false information, keep the article. Catchpole 10:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Define false. The issue of recognition in masonry means this page will be either: refelective of one jurisidiction's list, and therefore both POV and copyvio; or unwieldy (in terms of being a list of links that boil down to (friend of a friend of) contstantly changing information--Vidkun 14:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Remove all the links to the lodges websites and have it as a pure list and I am ok with keeping it.Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 11:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Per nom. Black-Velvet 13:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Since the UGLE website is apparently the only source for this list, a link to that website from United Grand Lodge of England will provide this information without any maintanence on Wikipedia. -- Alan McBeth 17:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOT a directory, with endorsement for Alan McBeth's comment directly above. Barno 18:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above. Sharkface217 20:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information or a directory, and it seems POV in selection criteria. Moreschi 22:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - seems to me that this is unecessary to say the least. michaelCurtis ^talk+_{contributions} 22:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Pointless. WJBscribe 00:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• KeepAbstain... the concept seems a valid as any other such list. If we can get a valid primary source to base the list off and prune it of false info and advertising the list would be quite helpful. There are like 1600 lodges. If someone wants to do the work, then fine... but I don't think it's a problem to just leave a link to the lodge website in the article on UGLE. ---J.S ^(T/C) 00:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. I was one of the people who expanded this article from being ONLY UGLE to including those recognized by those UGLE recognizes. Without that, it's inherently POV. With that, however, it is an unwieldy list of links.--Vidkun 14:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Is it UGLE's formal policy to recognize any lodge recognized by those it recognizes? Can this be documented? (Sorry; with so much "secret", and thus unverifiable, information related to such organizations, and with so much false information put out over the last several centuries by Templar-hunters and propagandists, we need to be especially vigilant about citing reliable sources and checking seemingly reliable ones for bogosity.) Barno 19:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• I do not believe so; as a matter of fact, there was a lodge added to the list that was recognized by the Grand Lodge in Scotland (which is recognized by UGLE), but was not itself recognized by UGLE. I would like to point out here that there's actually quite a lot of good (and verifiable) information available on Freemasonry - you just need to look at books in commercial bookstores more than at Internet sites and self-published pamphlets. MSJapan 19:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• There is only a very small number of private material in Masonry (about 9 actually), unless you believe the conspiracy theorists. Recognition isn't secret, but it's complex and heavily influenced by political machinations. In principle should one GL recognise and unrecognised GL then either the third GL would be recognised by the first, or recognition of the second should be ceased. That should illustrate the maintenance difficulty.ALR 09:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete: This article is not notable. See WP:What Wikipedia is not.--Meno25 00:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It's not easily maintainable without exposure to inter-GL politics, and changes would be primary source material.ALR 09:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 01:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Florence High School (Alabama)

Florence High School (Alabama) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Small high school. No assertions of notability. Prod contested. ReverendG 00:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - there seems to be a general consensus on Wikipedia that high schools are always notable, and that middle and elementary schools are not. Any high school of any reasonable size will eventually generate mainstream press and notable alumni. --Hyperbole 01:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Actually recent trends seem to make that claim difficult to accept. Among other issues, more highschools have been closed as "no consensus, defaulting to keep" than "keep" and recently some have even been deleted. There is therefore no such general precedent. Furthermore, I am unable to find much in the way of mainstream press on the matter. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • There is no general consensus on Wikipedia that high schools are always notable. Vegaswikian 21:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, although I disagree that middle and elementary schools are not always notable. Currently all towns/cities/villages/communities are automatically considered notable - even if they're just a spot in the road. It stands to reason that a city's municipal functions - such as public schools - are included. Until there is an official policy/guideline on schools (currently there is not), there's no basis for deleting this, nor is there any basis for saying "No assertations of notability" when no one knows what constitutes notability for a school here yet. Highfructosecornsyrup 02:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep (after edit conflict) Even as I am not at all certain that I concur in the extant consensus that high schools are presumptively notable (toward the existence of which, see, e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents#Education), and even as I think the present proposed schools policy likely properly delineates the fashion in which we ought to treat high schools, there is surely not yet a plain consensus for the promulgation of WP:SCHOOL qua guideline, and I don't think any individual AfD to be the place at which we ought to broach the issue. Joe 02:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • No, AFD is exactly where you should apply the criteria that you support. You've explicitly stated that you support WP:SCHOOL, yet you haven't actually applied it here at all. Indeed, your rationale makes no mention of the actual subject at hand whatsoever. You've done nothing but give a bare vote, in effect. Please stop voting and start discussing the subject at hand, with reference to our policies and guidelines. This is not a vote. Uncle G 10:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per our high-schools-are-notable precedent. --- RockMFR 03:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep another school notablity question. I'm one of those people who believe all schools are notable. Atlantis Hawk 03:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Any reason why? JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete NO school (other than colleges) are inherently notable and nothing about this school stands out. No notability is asserted. People should stop thinking that all high schools are notable. TJ Spyke 03:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No assertion of notability. No independent reliable sources. No actual content beyond a directory entry. Fails WP:SCHOOLS3 and even WP:SCHOOLS. No policy- or guideline-based rationales for keeping have yet been presented. Finally, the "consensus" cited by most keep !votes above clearly does not exist when the AfD record is examined; a significant majority of school AfD nominations are either deleted or kept via no consensus. Actual keeps are a minority, and the "all schools are notable" argument self-evidently lacks consensus. Would not oppose a merge/redirect to the appropriate school district or locality article, however. Shimeru 04:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, I believe that at least all high schools are notable. Terence Ong 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment-Another interesting conflict that certainly has happened before and will again. Person A says "there is no way all high schools are notable. People should stop thinking that." Person B says "I believe all high schools are notable." Where do we go from there? Is there actual policy here? There isn't, right? So it has to get duked out again and again?--Dmz5 05:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • That's why closing admins should look at the comments and not just votes. Voting Keep and just saying that you think all schools are notable isn't enough and should pretty much disqualify your vote since that isn't a reason to keep an article. That wouldn't fly on any other AFD, so why should it be allowed on school related AFD's? TJ Spyke 06:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • That argument is made when places are put up for AfD, and no-one seems to think that it's a problem there. Anyway, I see "delete because it's a school" arguments too so I don't see "keep because it's a school" as being less valid. JYolkowski // talk 23:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Many of us aren't happy with the attitude towards places and in any event if someone did argue "delete because it's a school" that would be just as invalid and should be given correspondingly low weight by the closing admins. There seems to be an almost two wrongs making a right attitude towards the above comment. In any event, the closest I've seen anyone come to "delete because it's a school" are people who when pressed actually mean "this is a school, schools have no inherent notability so delete as default setting" or something like that which is more of an issue of poor phrasing and shorthand than anything else. JoshuaZ 23:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete All schools are notable to the immediate community and those attending them--my elementary school was the most lasting positive experience in my life. But this article does not assert notability,nor could it prove it. Many many other high schools, including some of perhaps equal intrinsic merits, are more fully done, and demonstrate the reason they're here. I do not think we have a procedure for article on probation--improve it by this time next moth but that may be what we need. In its absence, the best we can do is delete, with a suggestion that the resubmit. The school district idea is a good one, but I think the se articles are inspired by local patriotism or perhaps school projects. DGG 06:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Notable as the main school of the city as the result of Coffee and Henry A. Bradshaw High School merging. Would like to know the backstory of those schools as well, as they undoubtedly have a story to tell. Silensor 07:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not an oral history project. I don't think James Agee is going to lend significance to this article.--Dmz5 08:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I gotta vote keep on this one, to me schools ore notable. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Care to explain why? JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Against my better judgement. This is an AMERICAN school. If we were talking about a school in Myanmar, would it still be kept, or would the general consensus be that it's non-notable? The idea of generating notable alumini is very America-centric, if not Western-centric. Black-Velvet 13:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment You're not really saying "keep because it's American," are you? Shimeru 15:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. I fail to see how intelligent editors and administrators can advocate for a policy that says "all high schools are notable". This simply makes no sense to me whatsoever. How is a high school automatically notable? It would be notable if, for instance, an important legal case was fought regarding a policy at said school---for instance, Brown v. Board of Education. And, certainly, there are a whole host of other reasons a high school might be notable. But, automatic notability? Please! ---Charles 15:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - appears to be a school. Trollderella 16:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• so? JoshuaZ 02:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep — Here we go again. It's a valid high school and it meets my personal criteria for notability. — RJH (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Which are? JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - appears to be a school. —Centrx→talk • 16:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment That isn't a reason for deletion or keeping by itself. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Close this discussion, it appears there will not be any consensus. Just H 17:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Perhaps not, but that's by no means clear, particularly if the closing admin decides to ignore the profusion of WP:ILIKEIT !votes. Shimeru 17:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Wikipedia:Schools3 looks good, and this article doesn't meet that standard. -- Alan McBeth 17:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect to Florence's article. I think almost any USA high school can be shown to be notable with some research, but WP:V trumps editors' personal all/none standards. This article has no claim to meet any criterion except WP:ITSASCHOOL and no verifiable sources at all, not even a trivial "local paper reports board meeting". Given the ongoing lack of school-guideline consensus, we need to apply basic policy, starting with verifiability. Barno 18:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Articles can be merged without coming to AfD, as normal editing. Septentrionalis 18:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, when there is consensus or little likelihood of objection. But merging a school stub into its community's article is almost certain to be controversial to those who consider all schools (or all those of a certain level) to be automatically notable, so the nominator did right to bring it here for discussion. Sadly, little of the discussion is focused on how this specific topic and its current stub meets or fails to meet WP policy (as compared to either side's proposed guideline which lacks consensus). Other than an unencyclopedic "two schools merged", nobody has presented either a single reason that this particular school might be notable, nor a single source showing actual coverage by reliable sources. What's there to merge? Barno 19:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually, merging is a lot less controversial than deletion (very few people object to merging of schools). I would recommend trying it first. If someone wants to be a WP:DICK about that, an AfD nom may be appropriate at that point but I would suggest not before. JYolkowski // talk 23:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Agreed, if this becomes a redirect there is no need to bother deleting the material currently there. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the notability of high schools in general. Sharkface217 20:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • High schools are not notable in general. No where on Wikipedia has that been established and your personal opinion isn't enough. High schools have to proove their notability, which this one doesn't. TJ Spyke 21:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Just another run-of-the-mill school, nothing notable about it. Carlossuarez46 22:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all schools are notable in and of themselves (Heck, who knows...someday, they may graduate a future President!--though, Abe Lincoln was homeschooled).--MonkeyTimeBoy 22:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • And if they do graduate a future president they might become notable then and then we can have an article. Under this logic we should have biographies of all little kidss because they might grow up to be president. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I'm confused by the idea expressed in several of the above comments that there is precedent or consensus that all high schools are notable. This particular article doesn't establish the notability of the school and of the dozens or even hundreds of articles on Wikipedia considered for deletion (AFD, speedy or otherwise) every day because they don't assert the notability of their subjects, I don't see why this one (or any other article about a questionably notable school) should be kept. Anybody could make a similar plea for their pet subject. Two schools were merged - so what? This happens quite often. Extraordinary Machine 22:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I have always felt that this is exactly the danger in making the blanket statement that "all schools are notable." We don't allow the statement that all structures are notable, or all people are notable, or all books or all bands. Each one must prove its own notability. Why do we exempt schools from this? Now, granted, there are some categories that are granted instant notability, such as incorporated communities, regardless of size. This, however, is official policy. In the absence of official policy on schools, all we have to go on are the policies that DO exist, and one of those policies is that an article MUST assert its notability. "I think all schools are notable" is no better than "I think all people are notable." --Dmz5 03:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • There is no such policy that states that all articles must assert their notability or they get deleted. The solution to articles not asserting their notability is to reference them, not to delete them. JYolkowski // talk 23:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep High schools are notable per precendent. --Oakshade 07:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • What precedent? Extraordinary Machine 00:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Absolutely not. Most highschool discussions end in no consensus which defaults to keep and recently highschools have been deleted and those deletions were reconfirmed on DRV. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per well written arguments by Dmz5, and by lack of arguments by keepers. Fram 15:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Florence, Alabama per WP:LOCAL (or keep if expanded), meets content policies. JYolkowski // talk 23:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per arguments given above.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 00:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as schoolcruft that fails the notability guidline on schools. Just because it is a highscool deos not make it notable, something of interest had to have actually happened in connection with the school. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. NeoFreak 03:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Wikipedia currently has no notability guideline on schools. Highfructosecornsyrup 17:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete another run of the mill, non-notable school that does not warrant encyclopedic treatment. Eusebeus 10:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Lots of opinions stated there, but where's the policy? Highfructosecornsyrup 17:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to forget that policy is not static but dynamic, consensus driven and constantly subject to reevaluation and change. I find minor Pokemon characters inherently unnotable and would vote to delete them on that basis alone. I find schools inherently unnotable and vote to delete them as such. You can disagree, but as fas as I am concerned, schools default to delete unless they are clearly and substantially noteworthy. It is quite simply a logical fallacy to argue that we somehow need to justify a decision to delete based on some reference to policy, when by the simple dictates of community-driven consensus mean that the accumulated weight of opinion one way or the other is itself sufficient. The problem, of course, is that there is no such policy regarding schools, as evidenced by the failed attempt to beat out a compromise at WP:SCHOOLS. I am happy for you to disagree with me, but don't pretend you can invalidate a large body of opinion, mine included, by demanding capricious substantiation when the very essence of the question remains a matter of outstanding debate. I don't challenge your good faith, but that smacks of hubris tinged by ignorance or dishonesty. Eusebeus 19:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Merge with Florence, Alabama. A delete will not work because the article will just be re-created by the students. If we install redirects in place of school pages, we can be sure that this sort of "article" will eventually fade away. DrKiernan 10:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or merge with Florence, Alabama - does not assert notability. There is no consensus that all schools are notable, there is consensus that some schools are notable but nothing in this article shows that this is one of them. Thryduulf 13:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or, if needed, Merge per DrKiernan. This debate has been going on long enough for the original authors or other interested parties to demonstrate notability with citations of famous alumni, historical impact, notable sports events, etc. The article has pretty much stayed the same and, as its currently written, does not indicate that the school has been involved in anything the larger world would require knowledge of. Endless blue 06:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep- This article is most certainly notable. Florence High School is a wonderful school that provides excellent eduations to over one thousand students in Florence, Alabama. Anyone who has ever walked into the doors of Florence High School knows that it is a fine learning facility. It is apparent that all Florence High School students have a close rapport with one another. The percentage of Florence students who "keep it real" is astonishingly high. Florence High School is seen by its students as "extra crunk" and many graduates have been quoted as saying that they miss the days when they had the opportunity to go to Florence High School "every day of their lives." Florence High School is a top-quality high school that should be broadcasted over the internet so that the world may know of its existance.--Andrew Davis Price 21:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not really what wikipedia was intended for - please see the encyclopedia's guidelines. If you have any questions, don't be afriad of asking.michaelCurtis ^talk+_{contributions} 21:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I haven't made up my mind on this school but there are some references I was able to find. First, note that since there are many schools witht he same name as this one it isn't easy to go through google searches (it appears that there are Florence High Schools in at least Alabama, Missisipi, Colorado, Montana, Pensylvania, Tennesee and South Dakota). The school has what seems to be exactly one student who has done anything resembling anything of note- one Jennifer Ann Taylor who was an Intel Finalist and seems very accomplished in a variety of fields(although this lists her at a different school everything else puts her here). See [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. The school has a smattering of minor awards and students with minor scholarships such as here and two of the school's athletes have been all-american [7](I think, I may be misreading that). The school also at one point had apparently one very talented teacher [8]. However, all media mentions of the school give us little or no information. In all cases the school is mentioned in passing such as [9]. JoshuaZ 23:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete Unless all high schools are automatically notable, this one is not notable. I commend the probable efffort of the students to join in editing WP, and, now they have mastered the mechanics, they should be encourage to learn about finding evidence. If Andrew DP is among them, I suggest he look for some famous alumni as a first approach. The thorough investigation by JoshuaZ is a model of diligence, and comes to about as strong a proof of non-notability as one could get. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DGG (talk • contribs).
• Delete. Clearly should have been a speedy as emptly. At best merge the few tidbits of information there into the school district article. There is no guideline that all high schools are notable. Fails WP:SCHOOLS3. Vegaswikian 21:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Notability not clearly demonstrated. WMMartin 17:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to say that my own view is that having "famous" alumni is not per se notable, though I recognise that some people disagree with me. Since people have to be educated somewhere, the fact that some schools produce famous people seems to me to be a random event, and thus not notable. If a school consistently produces important physicists, say, or actors, this suggests that there is something non-random and thus notable going on - perhaps the school has a special teaching process for physics, or has special skills in training aspiring actors in voice production. Something like that is notable, but just doing a job isn't. Show us how this school does something that other schools don't, and I'll gladly vote the other way. WMMartin 17:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus on some and delete the rest.
This discussion amounted to over 150K. Much of it (too much) was spent debating the merits of an AfD nominating so many related yet distinct articles in a single nomination. The prospect of 85 59 separate AfDs containing the same arguments from the same set of editors is even more frightening than the debacle that this AfD nearly became. I find no merit in the arguments against the form of this AfD other than the observation that historically these types of nominations become a train wreck with no consensus emerging after day upon day of discussion.

Fortunately, some progress has come from this AfD. Reading through this (yes, every word of it) consensus was clear (yes, clear) on several issues:

1. The level of detail, in-universe style and sources of all of the articles fails to meet WP:WAF and WP:RS.
2. The information is single sourced with possible copyvio issues from MaHQ.net.
3. All of the information has already been transwikied to http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
4. While the Gundam series itself clearly meets the notability requirements of WP:FICT, the majority of the articles listed in this AfD do not.

Now, if this were a vote, then the result would be "no consensus". However, consensus here does not mean consensus that WP:ILIKEIT, but consensus that the material here meets established guidelines and policies that have been developed through consensus. In this regard there were strong arguments in favor of deleting everything, however, I find that there is no consensus whether the following articles meet the notability requirements of WP:FICT, and are thus kept by default:

• GAT-X105 Strike
• GAT-X105E Strike Noir
• GAT-01 Strike Dagger
• ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam
• ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom
• YMF-X000A Dreadnought Gundam
• CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series
• TMF/A-802 BuCUE
• TMF/A-803 LaGOWE
• ZGMF-X09A Justice Gundam

Note that among those arguing to keep the articles, there was consensus to merge the above articles in some form. Deciding how to merge these article is left to the WP:CE project, of which 4 of its 11 members participated, albeit peripherally, in this discussion. There was no consensus to delete yet consensus among those arguing to keep to merge, delete and redirect the following into a single article:

• MBF-P01 Gundam Astray Gold Frame
• MBF-P02 Gundam Astray Red Frame
• MBF-P03 Gundam Astray Blue Frame
• MBF-M1 Astray

There was also consensus that all 14 of the above articles need to be significantly edited to address the issues in points #1 and #2 above.

That leaves the following to be deleted with no prejudice against creating a single (or very limited set of) composite article(s) that discuss all of these elements as a group while addressing concerns #1 and #2 above:

• GAT-01A1 105 Dagger
• GAT-X102 Duel Gundam
• GAT-X103 Buster Gundam
• GAT-02L2 Dagger L
• GAT-04 Windam
• GAT-X370 Raider Gundam
• GAT-X252 Forbidden Gundam
• GAT-X131 Calamity Gundam
• GAT-X207 Blitz Gundam
• GAT-X303 Aegis Gundam
• GFAS-X1 Destroy
• TS-MA4F Exass
• TS-MB1B Euclid
• TSX-MA717/ZD Pergrande
• YMAF-X6BD Zamza-Zah
• YMAG-X7F Gells-Ghe
• AMA-953 BABI
• AMF-101 DINN
• TFA-2 ZuOOT
• UMF-4A GOOhN
• UMF-5 ZnO
• UMF/SSO-3 ASH
• ZGMF-515 CGUE
• ZGMF-600 GuAIZ
• ZGMF-1017 GINN
• ZAFT Armed Keeper of Unity
• ZGMF-X11A Regenerate Gundam
• ZGMF-X12A Testament Gundam
• ZGMF-X13A Providence Gundam
• ZGMF-X23S Saviour Gundam
• ZGMF-X24S Chaos Gundam
• ZGMF-X31S Abyss Gundam
• ZGMF-X42S Destiny Gundam
• ZGMF-X56S Impulse Gundam
• ZGMF-X666S Legend Gundam
• ZGMF-X88S Gaia Gundam
• ZGMF-X2000 GOUF Ignited
• MVF-M11C Murasame
• ORB-01 Akatsuki
• ZGMF-XX09T DOM Trooper
• MAW-01 Mistral
• NMS-X07PO Gel Finieto
• GSF-YAM01 Δ Astray
• GSX-401FW Stargazer
• UT-1D Civilian Astray DSSD Custom

The deleted articles above should be redirected either to a composite article or to some other article, in part to discourage recreation and in part to assist in locating the correct article for searches. This redirection is to be done at a later time following the completion of this closure.

You can do the math on the box below to see how long I spent reading, investigating and weighing this decision, so think about it before you come and yell at me. —Doug Bell ^talk 14:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: I have no stake or prejudice in Gundam—frankly, before this AfD I knew little about it.

[edit] CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series

CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

I am not only nominating this article, I am nominating every page all 84 pages in Template:Cosmic Era mobile weapons. They are all listed and lightly mentioned on Cosmic Era Mobile Units, therefore a merge is not required. All of the information has already been transwikied ([10]). The information appears to be stolen from MaHQ.net. Deletion is the only option. Before you defend the existence of these articles, please observe how these articles defy WP:NOT, an official policy.

• Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought

  There are no sources on most of the articles. Therefore the articles break this rule. Until you can come up with a reliable source not dedicated to Gundam, it will violate this.

• Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information

  The policy states "works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis". None of the articles have this.

There we have two policies that the article clearly violates. If that's not enough, here's a violation of the WP:FICT guidelines:

• Minor characters (and places, concepts, etc.) in a work of fiction should be merged with short descriptions into a "List of characters." The main criterion is how much non-trivial information is available on the character.

  Seeing as most of the articles contain mostly trivial information, they are minor, and therefore violate the guideline.

Now, on various articles for deletions, these points have been raised to keep:

• it would be nice to keep these articles

  That's not a reason for keeping them.

• there are several more obscure series that should have been targeted first.

  That's irrelevant. This one has to go, it doesn't matter what order it's done in.

• they're not harming anything or against Wikipedia policies that I'm aware of.

  Yes they are, I mentioned the policies they're violating.

• If these articles are deleted you would have to delete about every single anime character plus Star Wars and Star Trek articles

  That seems like a very good idea. Just because that hasn't been done yet doesn't mean this can't be done first. Furthermore, a main character in Star Wars is a lot more important than every single quartenary robot.

• 'Cruft' or no, Wikipedia is to inform. Just because it's not important to you does not automatically make it useless.

  There are various rules and policies that state the articles are useless.

• Most of the information is actually translated directly from various sources, including direct references in the show, books, magazines, and model boxes and instructions.

  Those are primary sources. Articles require secondary sources. If there aren't any, the articles should not exist (in most cases)

Thank you. Please, base this on importance, not your liking of the series. Adhere to the rules, not your opinion. TheEmulatorGuy 00:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• The previous AfD closed as keep on April 29, 2006.

COMMENT: Many people in this discussion are stating that they think some of these articles should go but some should not, or complaining that individual AfDs should be created for each separate article. What they are neglecting to state is which articles they think should go and which should stay and stating their reasons. It is perfectly within process to nominate a group of related articles in a single nomination, and the above referenced template lists the included articles. That means that if your position is that not all of the articles should share the same fate, then this is the time and place to make your case for the fate of individual articles. —Doug Bell ^talk 12:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete all per very thorough nom. --- RockMFR 00:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and refer to a relevant WikiProject for how to best merge, transwiki, or otherwise organize this information. Yes, we have a situation where numerous articles of questionable value exist - but trying to deal with that situation with one gigantic AfD almost guarantees throwing some babies out with the bathwater. Major elements of notable fiction do generally receive articles on Wikipedia, and that is in no way incompatible with Wikipedia policy. --Hyperbole 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: It has already been merged and transwikied. There are no babies in the bathwater. Using that comment is simply an excuse to keep the articles, and until you actually find a "baby", your claim is incorrect. Look through every article in the template and I guarantee none of them are of importance. These are not major elements of notable fiction, as I have stated, and it does violate policy. Please read my nomination next time. Your keep vote is simply invalid. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm not going to take your word for it that a group of 85 articles contain no information that are important to a clearly notable anime. There is probably no group of almost 100 articles I'd vote a blanket "delete" on, especially when a dozen or more of them have already undergone the AfD process - and survived. It seems disrespectful to all those discussions to try to supercede them by having the entire category deleted. --Hyperbole 01:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Any robot in Gundam is non-notable. In a very popular series, Metal Gear, the Metal Gears are the star of the show. They are the most important, and each one serves a very important aspect of it. However, they are all in Metal Gear (weapon). This is good example to compare to, because Metal Gear articles are actually representative of a good set of editors, not a group of fans. I realize it seems disrespectful to previous discussions, but I have already argued against all of the points mentioned in those discussions. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
        • There is literally no comparison between Metal Gear and Gundam. Gundam is a genre-defining show in literally the same sense that Star Trek defines the "guys in a spaceship fly around solving other people's problems" subgenre of television sci-fi. Iceberg3k 17:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
          • You misunderstood the comparison. I was trying to say that in Metal Gear, the MOST IMPORTANT antagonist-related thing is in a list, while in Gundam, every single robot and his robot-dog has a full article. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
            • Yet, you nom ALL of them. L-Zwei 06:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
              • What are you trying to say? That some of them have importance towards the real world? I'd love for you to give me some proof. --TheEmulatorGuy 06:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Prove had been shown. You just ignore them to the convinience of your own argument. If someone have published a book to show others how to 3D model these units, if someone have published magazines on how to model real world models on these units, it is enough of a real world impact. It does not impact you, but the real world of the modeling industry and publishers and 3D modelers. No one went to improve the articles yet because you have listed too many and coined all of them to be the same. No, your ignorance is never an argument of you having good enough IQ to disrespect others. MythSearcher^talk 06:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• question Is this a nomination for everything in the tamplate or only CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series? I don't see current AfD templates on the others... BCoates 01:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: I am nominating everything in the template. It has to be realized that we cannot keep these articles just because one might be useful. That's simply a terrible excuse. Actually putting the deletion template on all articles would be a ridiculously lengthy task and a waste of time. The steps for AfD mention that to delete a group, a good idea is just to nominate one. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Delete only CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series. Makes no assertion of notability within the context of Gundam; Doesn't even name a specific work they're mentioned in. Some of these might be worth turning into useful articles but I have no reason to believe this one is. Keep the rest until they've been given a proper AfD notice that the people who have the page on watchlist will see. Most people don't read AfD. BCoates 01:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Delete all per Wafulz below. BCoates 04:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all I'd normally state my reasons here, but the nom summed it all up very nicely. Ultra-Loser ^{[ T ] [ C ]} 01:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all I agree, delete. Fledgeling 01:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all and nominate individually or at least in smaller groups. These kind of blanket nominations are bound to end up deleting many worthwhile articles, resulting in another WP:DRV fiasco like Esoteric Programming Languages. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 01:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: I realize your concern, but you have to realize that there are no worthwhile articles in the templates. They are all non-notable, and there are similar examples supporting this, far more relevant than the one you mentioned. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Continually asserting that there are no worthwhile articles is not an argument. An argument would list each subject and give an explanation of why that individual subject does not warrant an article. Uncle G 11:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

*Delete only CAT1-X_Hyperion_Gundam_series until such time that all articles on template are properly AfD'd. wtfunkymonkey 02:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete all - articles have all been updated to refelct the AfD, articles have been transwikied, nomination does well to counter any arguments. I will say, however, that I am disappointed in User:TheEmulatorGuy's conduct throughout a majority of this discussion. -- wtfunkymonkey 11:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: That's a very extreme thing to ask. No one has shown notability for any of the pages, and to nominate each one would be utterly ridiculous and time wasting. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • comment [edit conflict] Wikipedia has procedures put in place for a reason, you cannot expect them to be ignored on the basis of your own personal laziness. You nominated the articles, you must follow proper procedure. Every article is granted the same rights and protection by wikipedia policy, regardless of what the content may be. wtfunkymonkey 02:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Reply: Personal laziness? I would have to edit two hundred similarly-related pages just to nominate them. That doesn't even count the constant replying and defending I have to do with doubtful editors. However, the reason why I am nominating them as one is because they are all cruft - I have looked at all of them, and even if I didn't, fictional objects similar to this don't pass guidelines. The only argument towards keeping it is your laziness - you are the one who guesses there might be important articles in the template instead of looking for yourself. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Longest AfD nom I've ever seen. I have nothing to add but delete. --Natalie 02:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all. I have marked each individual article for deletion, so the argument of only one being marked is now officially out the window. In the process, I also got to look at them all, and I've surmised that all of them are basically an extension/copy/mirror of http://www.mahq.net/, which is not allowed. No sources = unverifiable, and as it stands, the articles are really caving in to undue weight. Take it to some other wiki/website please. --Wafulz 03:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Even though I'm not an anime fan, there probably are quite a few people out there that like this show. Atlantis Hawk 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Are... are you kidding me? Did you even read the nomination text? THIS VIOLATES POLICIES. You're unbelievable. I don't know what else to say. Its the equivalent of saying "well, a lot of people didn't like the guy he killed, so he shouldn't go to jail". --TheEmulatorGuy 03:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Swow 04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or break into smaller listings. Mass AFD's almost always fail, and you didn't even do it right since only 1 article was actually nominated. If you want to do a mass AFD, at least learn how to do it right. Right now, anyone who visits any of the other articles have no way to vote since they don't know you want to delete them. TJ Spyke 04:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Did you even see Wafulz’s post? Every article under that template has a deletion tag that redirects them to here. Know whats going on before you accuse someone. Fledgeling 04:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. A clear, very thorough nomination. There is nothing more to say than the points made above. Sr13 04:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This is a very entertaining afd. TheEmulatorGuy, you clearly have a strong editorial (not fan-based) opinion on this. I have a question - you say above the AfD guidelines mention that a whole template can be proposed for deletion by nominating one representative article, yet numerous posters here strongly feel that all of the articles needed to be listed. What is the actual procedure here? I know that it has been rendered moot in this case, but there seems to be a policy conflict, no?--Dmz5 05:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: I'm unsure. WP:AfD states "To make it easier for those participating in the discussion, it may be helpful to "bundle" all of them together into a single nomination". I obviously wasn't going to create multiple AfD pages, so I adhered to this, but putting a notice on every single page seemed a daunting task. I went ahead with one page, and fortunately Wafulz mended my mistakes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheEmulatorGuy (talk • contribs) 2006-11-30 05:50:07 (UTC)
    • Additional comment i don't BELIEVE somebody took all the time to write and properly format all those articles. Man--Dmz5 05:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Question Until you can come up with a reliable source not dedicated to Gundam. What do you actually mean? different series should be separated sources, or everything gundam related is a no? Does something like the sales of a gunpla count towards a source not dedicated to gundam, or someone writing a book stating the impact of specific gundam series to name anything here counted as dedicated to gundam? And what about Super Robot series? Just asking, because this is not clear enough. I limit the sentence to Gundam Seed and Seed-Destiny anime and official guide books for the moment.

  P.S. The WP:OR quoted here have been taken to a liberty of extending it to an out-of-reach limitation. Different authors writing different articles for the same series should not be counted as original research, like different authors writing different physics book should be counted as separated sources, both primary and secondary. MythSearcher^talk 05:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The anime equivalent of sites like GameSpot and IGN are what would be considered reliable, however, fan-sites like http://www.mahq.net are not. I admit I used the wrong words, but the idea is there - they need reliable sources. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all per very good nomination. Mass AfDs are not often appropriate, but they are here, as all nominated articles do suffer from the same problems, and individual discussions would be process for process' sake. Just for completeness' sake, although not really a reason to delete, these articles also violate WP:WAF. Sandstein 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • What about stuff like MS Encyclopedia 2006, author is independent but is published by official publisher? MythSearcher^talk 10:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all, unencyclopedic fancruft. Terence Ong 05:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Second time people have tried to delete all this, and just as foolish as the first time.--DNAlpha 05:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC) — DNAlpha (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Reply: Incorrect. I provided policies and a guideline the pages violate, as well as arguments to all of the "keep" points raised previously. Completely different to the previous nominations. Because of that, you have no argument for keeping the pages. Another invalid vote. Care to iterate on why they should stay, or are you going to dwell on ill-founded decisions? I should mention that this user's only edits are on the pages I have nominated to delete, spreading 23 edits over almost a year and a half. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Reply: You fail to understand the scope of Gundam. How are Metal Gears anymore notable then Mobile Suits? Both are the stars of their shows. Your policy violations aren't actually as clear as you make them out to be. I could make a more full arguement aganst them if I felt it was needed.--DNAlpha 06:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC) — DNAlpha (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Redirect all. Can't delete them if they have been merged to another article. Ben Standeven 06:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC) preceeding edit from IP 70.255.38.147
• Delete. Per nom, nothing more to be said. QuiteUnusual 10:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• The nomination is flawed. The assertion is that these articles are unverifiable, and that the only way for readers to check them is to perform the primary research of actually watching the series directly. However, for an article to be unverifiable it has to be shown both that the article cites no sources and that the nominator looked for sources and didn't find any. (See Wikipedia:Deletion policy.) The nominator has shown the first, not the second. Something is unverifiable only if no sources exist, not simply if the article cites no sources. (The tag for that is {{unreferenced}}, not {{afd1}}.) Uncle G 11:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep this is not a good nom. Danny Lilithborne 11:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Could you iterate on that? I clearly pointed out the policy violations and rebutted against any argument made. Judging from that, it's a very good nomination as a few have said. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment This AfD is horrible. There is no explanation made anywhere why any particular article of the set isn't worthy of an article. Perhaps they aren't, but in order to perform a blanket nomination, every single article's reason for deletion must be stated! You cannot simply call them all "non-notable" without an explanation. I hope the closing admin notices this blatant violation of policy. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 11:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • These articles are all pretty much the same. All the complaints in the nomination/comments apply to all of them, in particular that there's no reputable secondary sources that provide the level of detail that would justify so very many articles instead of one or a few covering the whole topic. Are each of these lines of robots even central to the actual series? There's no hint of this in the articles, I don't even see episode/series/movie titles listed. It's just a dump of technical minutiae written as if they were real. BCoates 13:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Then wishfully there will be someone with enough knowledge and time to modify them to better articles, one by one. I never have both and I have no interest in working extensively on CE related stuff and thus I only care about this deletion process and how much it really follows WP. From what I see now, the WP is explaint in a pretty twisted way to justify the deletion of all the articles. I am more for the idea of deleting most of them, but the arguement is not made in a good way. It only looks like any wiki deletionist's work instead of someone who cares about making articles better. MythSearcher^talk 14:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all Per Dark Shikari and MythSearcher's detailed response below. Btw: The robots ARE the stars of the show in the myriad Gundam series. They've spawned an industry in Japan making amazingly detailed models and have a huge fanbase of their own. Kyaa the Catlord 12:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Move to alternative wiki for safekeeping until the articles can be sifted through properly to see what can be salvageable. Cruft or not, a lot of work seems to have gone into these; the infomation should be kept somewhere. Exception is if it can be proven that they are copyvios, in which case delete.--SeizureDog 12:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Please read the rest of my nomination. They are already on the Gundam wiki, and all of the information is directly taken from http://www.mahq.net
• Keep All - (Edit conflict)I think these articles are fairly well written and if i wanted information on this stuff, I would more than likley come to Wikipedia. In that case, for me personally, I believe the article should stay per WP:IAR.Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Incorrect. They're terribly written because they all maintain an in-universe style and fail to ever come out of it. The only people wanting to know that "CAT1-X1/3 Hyperion Unit 1 has a height of 16.9 meters and is used by the Earth Alliance" is a Gundam fan. That is not what the encyclopedia is for.
• Keep all Per Dark Shikari Bigmog 12:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC) — Bigmog (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep all Per all keep noms so far. There's no reason to get heated up over this. Black-Velvet 13:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Yes there is a reason to get heated up over it. It clearly violates policies and guidelines, and nominations keep failing because of the stubbornness of Gundam fansboys and their need for fancruft. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep All Who the hell made you boss? Not to mention , the information listed herein has already proven useful to my work as a reference/research editor. If that is not an indicator of real-life reference and usefulness, I don't know what is. I second everything ever mentioned under the other Keep votes. Zeromig 08:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC) — ZeroMig (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

"the information listed herein has already proven useful to my work as a reference/research editor" Huh? What kind of work do you do exactly? --SeizureDog 14:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe ZeroMig works for a comics and anime magazine, I hesitate to say more because of personal details policies. Kyaa the Catlord 08:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Whoa! Lets keep the tone a bit nicer! Nothing to get heated up about - Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

What.the.fuck? My tone was completely fine, it was a simple question asking for clarification to a confusing statement. Now I'm pissed though because it's late and hate it when people pull that "tone" crap on me. As if there are really tones online anyways, it's all how you read it. Gao. --SeizureDog 14:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Its ok! It was not meant as an attack on anybody in particulars behavior. The comment was just meant to remind everbody involved that it is not that big a deal! Yes, it all how we read it. The comment was more directed at :Who the hell made you boss?". I apolagize if you took it offensivley! Thanks for your work on AFD discussions. If you have any futher issues with my comment, you are welcome to discuss it with me on my talk page. - Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete all per the thorough nomination that little can be added to. OMG. Duja► 15:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletions. -- _dk 16:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Someone explain to me why individual Pokemons are acceptable as articles but these are not. _dk 16:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: Please, that's irrelevant to this discussion. If you believe that there shouldn't be Pokemon articles, make your own AfD. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not even a keep vote. I'm honestly asking a question. _dk 01:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep all I may vote merge for some closely-relate article or some minor articles, but all of them into single article? Nah...L-Zwei 16:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: For starters, the necessary information has already been merged. Secondly, these are minor articles, as they are about quarternary objects in a fictional world. Thirdly, the information has been stolen. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all as above. This nom is nonsense. Trollderella 16:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: The nomination is not nonsense, your decisions are nonsense. I provide violations of policies, you scrap up incorrect arguments. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all per the excellent and thorough nomination, which points out numerous policies that these articles violate. A vote to keep is a vote to reject WP:NOR and WP:NOT: good luck with that.
  Given that the information all exists elsewhere, a mass deletion will not destroy anything in any case. — Haeleth Talk 16:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or Move to alternative Wiki per SeizureDog. However, this nomination is in bad form, and as much as I don't like the "tone" thing much, TheEmulatorGuy is actually being a dick, which is bad for someone so keen about policies. Oh, and if we are looking into the backgrounds, all the deleters have created their accounts about a month ago top, and all around the same dates. From what I see here, this is a "Keepers vs Deletionists" thing. I personally hate to throw good material to the garbage, and I feel like there should be a procedure of creating alternative wikis for cases like this. Additionally, it seems like a good part of this articles coul be made encyclopedic easily by adding a few lines of "the introduction of these suits had this and that impact on the series, as ----- commented in an interview." I never watched Gundam, and I'm no fan of the genre, but I know a major anime series when I see one, and coverage should abund if someone takes the pain to look into it.--SidiLemine 16:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: It is already in an alternative wiki. Please read the nomination. Don't bring the decision onto my actions, make the decision based on the CLEAR POLICIES IT VIOLATES. It's not good material, it's stolen in-universe material about fancruft. It's already in an alternative wiki, as I said, PLEASE READ THE NOMINATION NEXT TIME. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Additionnal comment: Haeleth, when you say "Given that the information all exists elsewhere", o you mean that there is a source to it, and as such it's not OR?--SidiLemine 16:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Reply: There's a thing called a "reliable source" and an "unreliable sources". These pages are stolen information from an unreliable sources.
• Keep all as per Dark Shikari. Kagurae 17:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or Move to alternative wiki as per SeizureDog. Kerochan no Miko 18:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: It's already in an alternative wiki. Read the nomination. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all per nomination. Montco 18:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all: why delete all infomation we ave articles on us pop culture scifi we have pages on doctor who a uk scifi series just because this is a nich thing we should remove it from the wikipedia unless we are removing all article on fiction. also mahq has made it known that they give permission to repclate here info if you source them.128.118.124.3 17:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC) — 128.118.124.3 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Comment - There is but one catch to this deletion process: People voting here do not know what they are voting for. There is no direct link to all the pages that are nominated. Yes, there is a function called What links here however, it is almost certained that most people would not know its exsistence and still vote on the subject. And thus making the nomination not reputable just because there is no way to tell if people even know what there are voting about other than a bunch of supposedly OR pages. If users who voted above saw this comment, please edit your vote to reflect you have at least looked through all the pages and know what they are about, to show that the vote is reputable. The list contain 2 pages.

Secondly - The WP:OR does not extend to fictional characters that appears in an anime(Seed and probably Seed-Destiny), in manga(Seed Astray, Astray-X, Destiny Astray), in settings(Seed MSV, Seed-D MSV), Official guide books(Seed data file characters 1~4, Mechanical file 1~4), and a Gundam Mobile Suit guide book for most Gundam series instead of Seed and Seed-D dedicated(MS encyclopedia 2003 and 2006). Some even appeared in the Super Robot Series(Super Robot Wars) that is not dedicated to Gundam but almost every single major mecha anime. Yes, it is very likely that these pages will recieve a lot of fancruff and OR in it if left unattented, however, this is not a reason of deleting any article just because they may contain OR.

More reasoning could counter arguments made by the nominator:

1. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. - No, this is not publishing an original thought, the page is not created by the author of said characters(mecha), and there are more than one source backing them up (I know not all the pages include their sources, and I have no will in doing). No, they do not have to be not dedicated to Gundam, They just have to be not dedicated to the series, i.e. not a comic retelling of the anime, not a novel written by the same author, etc. If someone published a book talking about these characters, in a different way than the story plot itself, it is justified to be a secondary source. Which actually means that the articles not just justified the WP:NOT test, but can also be written to justify the style of an out-of-universe view.
2. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information - Yes, but per WP:FICT, Major characters (and places, concepts, etc.) in a work of fiction should be covered within the article on that work of fiction. If an encyclopedic treatment of such a character causes the article on the work itself to become long, then that character can be given a separate article. and The difference between 'major' and 'minor' characters is intentionally vague; the main criterion is how much non-trivial information is available on the character. Some books could plausibly have several dozen major characters. Here, in the list of AfD, I see quite a lot of important mecha that major characters used. Therefore, at least some of the articles here should not be deleted under this rule. In fact, a citation needed is what you need in these articles.

   And yes, I agreed with the fact that There is no reason for keeping them, most of them, at least. However, some of them should be kept, but the nominator indiscriminately list everything here, and thus it is too generic to vote for a yes.

   And another yes, it does not matter which one goes first, but it should always be done in the correct way, with correctly informed voters, with correctly listed reasons.

   Also, per Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Minor characters, Fictional characters which are cultural icons transcending their appearance in a particular work of fiction, or who cannot be neatly tied to a particular work of fiction or fictional universe deserve articles of their own, regardless of other circumstances. This is not an official policy, but a consensus. If they appeared in Super Robot Wars and SD Gundam G Generation, than it cannot be tied to a particular work (It is not Mobile Suit Gundam Seed's Cosmic Era anymore) and thus deserve articles of their own, regardless of other circumstances. The fun thing is, there are a few listed mechas actually showed up in series that are not related to gundam at all, like freedom in Magical Nurse Komugi and Comic Party and various units appeared more than once in the magazines Hobby Japan and Dengeki Hobby as iconic model kits. If the nominator is going to do anything similar (I mean this kind of mass deletion) to the UC timeline of Gundam, be informed here that most units in that timeline is also showed in Keroro Kunsou, Genshiken, Plamo tsuguru(TV show teaching how to build plastic models).

   I am all into deleting most of the pages listed, however, due to above reasons, this nomination did not completely followed the rules and is just too generic and took too much liberty in explaining the wiki policy, I am going to vote a:

   Keep per above reasons. However, after the voting period, if the articles are to be kept, I will be bold and merge(redirect) the ones I see that are not suitable to have its own page when I have time. MythSearcher^talk 18:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

   • Reply: This is quite bluntly incorrect. If you actually read the nomination, you'd realize I linked to a template AND list of all of the articles. You seem to misunderstand the policies as a whole, and seem to be judging it from the one-liners I wrote instead of the whole policy. I'm not enjoying the lack of literacy and comprehension in this nomination. There are about two people making a FALSE decision, and then we have a bunch of sheep saying "keep per above", even though the argument is wrong. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

     Please do not separate my section as a whole, also, different opinion does not mean it is a FALSE decision. Some see your argument is lacking its credibility and thus voted against it. Even someone like me who is all for deleting most of the articles thinks that what you are saying here is simply your own point of view instead of what is said in the policy. MythSearcher^talk 10:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per above statements. Sharkface217 20:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • A toast to a true Wikihero. Mythsearcher, you summed up what I wanted to say without the facts and references to back it up. Thanks a lot. I still maintain the idea of systematically creating alternate wikis for that kind of situations, but for what concerns Wikipedia, I follow you 200%.--SidiLemine 21:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Reply: Do you people even read nominations anymore? Turn off the anime and read. This information is already on an alternate wiki. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Hmmm, I missed that. Mostly while he said that they have been transwiki he didn't say to where.--SeizureDog 23:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
        • It has been transwikied to the Gundam wiki http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page (aka. absolute cruft hellhole) --TheEmulatorGuy 23:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
          • I see. I that case, my vote is now delete all. --SeizureDog 00:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete in light of transwikied process. Suggest ELs be used to prevent recreation (at least enough to point the reader to that "level" of information). -- Ned Scott 03:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I think it's clear that some should go, some should merge, etc (some being... most..), but we'll likely need further discussion to help organize the cruft-cutting. One thing is clear, things should not stay as they are. -- Ned Scott 05:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Has this initiative not failed once already? Too much potentially valuable information for a blanket delete. You might consider individual nominatinations for a less heated VfD. FWIW, I am not an anime fan. SuMadre 05:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply: The initiative previously failed because of a lack of information. I have provided everything required, making the decision much more clearer. I am trying to argue against this "potentially valuable" information argument. You're only assuming the information might be valuable because of ignorance, but I have looked through all of the articles, and none of it is valuable. For you to decide whether it is valuable or not, you will have to look at the articles. Otherwise, voting "keep" is just as foolish. You can't base a vote on ignorance - whether it's "keep" or "delete".
    • Follow-up: To do as you are asking is to delete dozens of articles which probably have not been read individually by us editors. I will read each one on a case-by-case basis, but I don't have the hours required to sift through each article in a blanket VfD. Are we to simply take your word that each and every article has no potentially valuable information AND is in violation of WikiPolicy? To vote based on such would be irresponsible & the height of ignorance. Once again, and without malice, I suggest that you consider individual noms. SuMadre 05:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Reply: I will be doing individual nominations if this results in a no-consensus. I am determined to get these horrible articles off of Wikipedia. It was clearly a mistake to bundle them, but nominating each one separately is going to be an extreme task. If this results in "keep" (as opposed to "no-consensus"), I'll have to give the administrator a refresher regarding the decisions on AfD. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Follow-up: I think you will have much better luck in that regard (individual noms). You clearly have a firm resolve to rid the world of these literary abominations, so I see your hard work coming to fruition if you change your tack. (Please sign your comments with four tildes in the future so I'll know for sure who I'm talking to - Thanks.) Best of luck. SuMadre 05:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Reply: Sorry about that. I normally sign, I must've forgotten. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• I just want to comment on how irritating I find it that so many of the people who have chimed in to this debate did not bother reading previous postings or even the original nomination. Yes it is long, but how can you expect to participate in a discussion if you are only aware of the previous three things that have been uttered? Not to select any particular editors for chiding, but I am especially surprised at how many people demanded the articles be transwikied even as TheEmulatorGuy was responding to each such comment individually saying "please read the nomination."--Dmz5 06:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all per WP:CE.--Ojaulent 12:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC) — Ojaulent (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

That there exists a project is not a reason to keep them. Do they follow policies, especially WP:V? That is the main question, and one I haven't seen any of the keepers address yet (although I may have missed someone in this lengthy AfD). Fram 19:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Fram is right on this one. The fact that there is a project devoted to a subject does not mean we should start writing articles on everything that falls under that subject. We have a Wikiproject on libraries and librarians. Does it follow that we should then write and keep an article on every library and librarian in the known universe? Please, for the love of all things good in this world, recognize that the answer to this quesiton is no. Consequentially 20:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. the Delete admin stated the following (roughly): The only ones who wants to know said gundam is X meters high is a gundam fan! THIS is an ultimatly wrong statement, and if this was to be the rule, than wikipedia all encylopedias worldwide would be EXTREMELY narrow. To say that unless proven to be useful to everyone, it should not be part of an encyclopedia. Encylopedias, and wikipedia for that matter, does not contain info that is useful to everyone, however, shouldn`t the fact that it is useful to SOMEONE be a decisive factor?

No, the nominator (not a "delete admin", just a regular editor: anyone can nominate articles for deletion) gave numerous reasons for deletion, one of them being that these articles violate one of our core policies, WP:V. Since these articles seem to be not only not verified but actually unverifiable (from secondary sources), they are a violation of what Wikipedia is supposed to be, and should be deleted. It doesn't matter if anyone likes or dislikes the subjects (we have many articles on subjects I utterly dislike), we should only look if these articles are conform to the policies of Wikipedia. They are not, and thus should be deleted. Fram 19:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per good nom (although he should have given them all an AfD notice from the start, but that has been fixed) and per mt reply to the previous unsigned post. Fram 19:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all. No matter your qualms with the procedural value of this nomination, there have been no arguments made that successfully defend against the charges leveled by the nominator. The current poll of votes shows 16-19 "keep" votes, but digging beyond the numbers game reveals a clearer picture of what's going on here. Eight keep votes reflect reservations about the way the articles were nominated, and say nothing about the content of the articles. Four "keep" votes are simple WP:ILIKEIT statements. Another "keep" vote is a regurgitation of the "worse articles exist, therefore this should be kept" fallacy. That means that 68.42 percent of the keep voters are ignoring the actual policy arguments, and chasing their tails in some rhetorical netherworld instead. It is my sincerest hope that the closing administrator realizes this. How on Earth is information like the following a worthy inclusion to the encyclopedia?

• "Their main feature, however, is the "Armure Lumiere" mono-phase lightwave shield system. This system consists of 7 emitters, one on each arm and 5 on the backpack." CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series
• "In addition, an amphibious variant of the Forbidden was created, the GAT-X255 Forbidden Blue. It utilizes a Natural-use OS rather than OS intended for Biological CPUs, and has weapons optimized for underwater use, including torpedo pods and a photon laser energy cannon in close combat mode." GAT-X252 Forbidden Gundam
• "The Chaos is initially tested at Armory One by former Proto-Chaos pilot Courtney Hieronimus. However, before ZAFT can bring it into active service, Sting Oakley of the Earth Alliance's 81st Independent Mobile Battalion steals the mobile suit and escapes with it to the battleship Girty Lue, where it is given the new model number RGX-01." ZGMF-X24S_Chaos_Gundam
• "For example, the Kimera piloted by Kisato Yamabuki is equipped with a large scoop-style shovel, while that of Lowe Guele mounts mobile suit-style arms, one with a conventional hand and the other with a heavy drill bit. Kimeras could also be fitted with caterpillar tracks for construction work on Earth." MAW-01 Mistral

Please, by all means, explain to me how that information is notable? Our guiding policy here should be WP:FICT, which gives us this gem of useful information:

"Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article."

These articles are written entirely in an "in-universe" style of prose, thus invalidating our first premise. They are unsourced, invalidating our second premise. They make no reference to their cultural value outside of the series, thus invalidating our third premise. In the end, they are a summary of Gundam-specific treknobabble, regurgitating plot specifics. What have we learned, then? Not only do they fail to meet any of the positive criteria set forth, they specifically violate the only negative criteria. Seriously. What's going on in here?

It has already been argued that the Gundam Wing series is a cultural staple and thus important to the encyclopedia as an article reflecting the significance of anime culture. Fine. That's why we've got an article called Mobile Suit Gundam. It covers the psychological and historical value of the franchise without vomiting up huge amounts of made-up statistics and histories for its myriad of plot-specific devices and characters. So stop saying we need an article about a futuristic backhoe to explain how the world is a better place because of the Gundam anime.

This debate needs to focus less on how much of a dick the nominator is (whether he is or not), and get to the crux of the issue: do these articles meet current Wikipedia policy for inclusion? I don't care how tight you twist your knickers up and wish it to be so, they simply do not. Consequentially 20:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Very well said, and I completely agree. -- Ned Scott 22:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I was forced to be a "dick" because of the general stubbornness of people voting to keep. I have seen one person give any sort of source to any of the articles, but the mentions are in a trivial matter and don't warrant an article for each robot. In any case, the matter has become out of hand, so I'm not going to bother anymore. I'll nominate some of the individual articles when this discussion is closed (if need be). --TheEmulatorGuy 23:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, we're just saying that if you were a dick or not doesn't matter. User:Consequentially is supporting your position. -- Ned Scott 00:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Personally, I don't think you're being a dick, you're just frustrated with the inane and misguided rationales for keeping these articles. Those kind of opinions aren't really relevant here, I think. We're here to talk about the article, not the people. If this debate is closed with anything other than "delete," then I suggest you go to the articles one by one and nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure, after all. Consequentially 02:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Screw that. If the discussion is closed with "keep," which it should be given the nature of the AfD, the opener should leave well enough alone. Going back against the consensus that evolves is the very definition of bad faith. If the nominator has NO intention of abiding by the result of the AfD if it goes against his desired result, he should NEVER have made the nomination in the first place. Iceberg3k 03:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If it results in keep, it will only be because of the blanket nomination. Because of that, nominating individual articles would not be bad faith and it would not be going against consensus. --TheEmulatorGuy 03:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

However, if you're truly concern about quality of article, not just having bad faith. You would wait for some period to see if we manage to improve these articles after this AfD nom or not. L-Zwei 04:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The articles has existed for a year, they've had a WikiProject dedicated them, and they've been nominated for AfD over three times, and yet there's been absolutely NO improvement. I'm not going to waste my time waiting for nothing to happen. --TheEmulatorGuy 04:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Irony, you appear to have self-confidence at moment. I'm not part of WP:CE (and in fact, hate it for narrow scope that limited to CE instead of whole fanchise) but the project seem to inactive. Many idea for improvement pop-up in this nom discussion, don't get overconfidence, but I think this AfD just drive people to improve their content, something previous AfDs fail (due to moronic element of previous AfDs). So I think it may worth to wait (AfD a soon-to-be-merge artcle is pointless anyway). L-Zwei 05:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This depends on who know their exsistence and who voted. There are unfortunately too many Cosmic Era fans who just walk by and do random edits. There is no method in stopping these. I can foresee these pages be recreated again and again after every deletion if there are no redirects that led them to a list(At least that's what happen to a lot of similar page in the Chinese and Japanese wiki). Actually, this is already a sign of what level of impact those things are influencing our real world. MythSearcher^talk 05:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If they are recreated after deletion, the proper response is to delete them again, and salt the earth from whence they rose. The fact that a lot of people edit an article is not an indicator of real-world impact, but rather an indicator of fan base. This was one of the major criticisms raised against Wikipedia in its humble beginnings: it was biased towards popular culture and current events articles because no one was interested in writing an article on hard science or math theory. The standards in WP:FICT go beyond "real world impact," also, a fact which continues to be ignored in this debate. Despite the "hundreds of editors" who've worked on these articles, not a one of them has bothered to put any non-fictional context into the article. You tell me how big its fake guns are, how fast its fake engines can go, and how long its fake legs are, but there is absolutely nothing about the artist who designed these units, or how they play into general themes of the anime, or how they've influenced the realm of anime-robot-drawing. The reason for this is simple in some cases -- the subject of the article 'just hasn't done any of those things. Consequentially 05:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

This is you POV, not wiki's. People say this people say that. Your argument based on a lot of elements that could be called original research, without a source, and violate the NPOV rule. Where on earth does wiki policy states that wiki should be only hard science, math theory? (though I really like those, too) I agree they should have some level of real-world context, they should have information on who designed them and by the influence of what (of course, sourced information). Again, I must tell you that these articles just did not have anyone with the knowledge and sources to edit them, you cannot just coin that to they can never be improved. And face it, popular culture is a real world impact, and I have already included sources that show how some of these articles can be improved to show real world impact. MythSearcher^talk 05:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The first half of your response, my friend, is a straw man, and I'd appreciate if you represented my positions accurately. I never argued that Wikipedia should include works only on math and hard science. I'll repeat myself.

The fact that a lot of people edit an article is not an indicator of real-world impact, but rather an indicator of fan base. This was one of the major criticisms raised against Wikipedia in its humble beginnings: it was biased towards popular culture and current events articles because no one was interested in writing an article on hard science or math theory.

Show me where I argued the point you refuted. Now, after you realize that you can't, lets move on. Wikipedia policy does not require "some level of real world context;" it requires the entire article be written in an out-of-universe context. This is from WP:WAF.

Wikipedia articles should describe fiction and fictional elements from the perspective of the real world, not from the perspective of the fiction itself.

For further explanation, lets look at what they suggest for information that meets an out-of-universe perspective.

• the author or creator;
• the design;
• the development, both before its first appearance and over the course of the narrative;
• real-world factors that have influenced the work;
• for fictional characters in dramatic productions, the actor who portrayed the role and his or her approach to playing that character;
• its popularity among the general public;
• its sales figures (for commercial offerings);
• its reception by critics;
• a critical analysis of the subject;
• the influence of the work on later creators and their projects; and
• a summary of the plot or elements of character and exposition, treated briefly, and clearly defined as fictional.

Your sources do not address these concerns, nor do the articles that are currently being nominated for deletion. They are written entirely from plot summary and technical detail. Even if you want to argue that the treatments are "summary of the plot or elements of character and exposition," you have no basis to claim it is "treated briefly, and clearly defined as fiction." Consequentially 23:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you have introduced this new term to me is ironically true that it can be used on yourself. You have strayed the discussion on saying how people critized wiki, without source, and expect me to say nothing about it? Back to the discussion. Face it, what I have listed are enough to write a good article on how some of these fictional characters made a real world impact, they have at least impacted someone to write a book on how to 3D model them, they have impacted people on writing published articles on teaching how to model using them as a reference. Even published POV critics can be included in wiki's article, therefore, a third party company publishing magazines and books referencing these fictional units, not talking about the plot, but just using them as a good tutoring material that a lot of people are familiar with, is a good source of indicating real world impact. If only I can scan a fan poll listed in magazine on which of these are more popular, there will be even more real world context, I do not have the magaizne, and I have no interest in finding one, therefore I never said anything about using it as a source. However, for a show having that kind of popularity in Japan, compared to any other anime, they always put up polls just to do a marketing research on which unit they can make a model kit and gain profit on.

No. A straw man fallacy is when you take someone's argument, and reconstruct it in a weaker, more-easily disposed form. I said, historically, there has been a bias towards popular culture instead of hard-science, and that caused criticism. The bias existed because people wrote about their interests, and not necessarily on what people deem academically "important" for an encyclopedia. That there are a lot of people interested in a topic does not make it important. Somehow, you transformed that into me saying, "we should only have articles on hard science and math," which is not only disingenuous, but flat out wrong. Stop it. Even if you're only misusing the term straw man and instead arguing that I'm shifting the debate, it's still a non-responsive argument. I'm probing deeper into why these articles violate WP:FICT and WP:WAF, and you're regurgitating the same word-vomit that you have been all thread: "it's notable and important because people make models of them." What you have yet to address is the fact that, despite the hundreds of edits and dozens of eyes that have passed over these articles, no one has taken the time to meet the criteria for writing on fiction. No matter what might be, we're here to deal with what is. And unless you can prove to me that each of these cartoon fabrications has single-handedly reshaped the way people think about drawing 3D stuff, you can't slap a blanket on them and say, "They all belong."

Hell, the fact that they wrote a guide on how to model a Gundam isn't a very strong argument in the first place, because not a single friggin' article talks about how these robots significantly affected the world of 3D modeling. "So what?" you say, "People wrote about it in a third-party publication, so it's automatically noteable enough to merit an article." That's bunk. If we grant your premise that the Gundamspooge has rocked the world of 3D modeling -- which I assure you, it hasn't -- that's information that needs to go in the article on 3D modeling. Stop dodging the question and answer me: which of the eleven characteristics of out-of-universe writing do these articles demonstrate? Consequentially 05:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Question where on earth do you see a policy saying it has to shake the whole world of 3D modeling before it can be said that it got some impact? Given, if a third party published a book of using it to teach 3D modeling, it means that it got enough credits and popularity that someone actually paid the copyright in order to use the designs for their books. No, it can never be so shocking that it moves the whole 3D modeling community, and thus it is not suitable to be mentioned in the 3D modeling article. However, a book written is a verifiable source of its popularity among the general public and the influence of the work on later creators and their projects. A third party publishing a book about these units is a very good demostration on how these units influenced the work of later creators and their projects. These articles currently contains none of these is a sign of they needed to be improved, if any of the fans cared to do so. Not a sign of deleting them. I have provided the sources, and the argument, and already said that if no one is changing them, I will merge them into a list. I never said anything about they should be kept as they are, and this is why I said the term you have introduced to me is ironically suitable for yourself, while I never said it is not suitable on what I said earlier about your unsourced argument on how people think wiki is biased towards popular culture. MythSearcher^talk 05:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Popularity is not notability. From UncleG's essay on notability:

The concepts of fame and importance have implicit in them the notion of a target population — a subject is famous amongst a group of people, a subject is important to a particular set of people. Notability has no such implicit notion. Notability is independent of specific groups of people. To understand this, consider that the primary notability criterion makes no mention of readership. A subject is not notable under the primary criterion if it is widely read about. It is notable by dint of people writing about it. It is the source writers, not the target readership population, that is relevant to the primary notability criterion.

I'm not saying that Gundam stuff doesn't have a large target audience, I'm saying that outside of that target audience, the importance of these vehicles drops off significantly. Your sources are written from within the anime community, from sources that center on the Gundam universe. These aren't articles from main-stream press or industry trade journals. Beyond that, the criticism that Wikipedia is biased towards popular culture is hardly unsourced. From Criticism of Wikipedia:

In an interview with The Guardian, Dale Hoiberg, the editor-in-chief of Encyclopædia Britannica, noted that "people write of things they're interested in, and so many subjects don't get covered; and news events get covered in great detail. In the past, the entry on Hurricane Frances was more than five times the length of that on Chinese art, and the entry on Coronation Street was twice as long as the article on Tony Blair."

While those specific examples aren't valid anymore, the bias still exists, and is a topic of great import to a lot of editors.Consequentially 14:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I have said, having books published satisfy the idea of It is the source writers, not the target readership population, that is relevant to the primary notability criterion., while you keep ignoring. Yes, they are not of a mainstream press, in America, but do I have to tell you that wiki is an international page, and the publishers are at least mainstream in Japan, if not Asia. The Magazines I have quoted are not Gundam or Anime based. Half of Hobby Japan talks about real world machine models, like cars, aeroplanes, ships and such. And your hatred in Anime does not take away the credibility of a magazine focusing on Anime is not a mainstream publisher and is biased on Gundam. Dengeki Hobby is more figure related than Gundam related. Yes, in your view anything that you have no interest in is not mainstream, because you simply do not need to pay any attention on it, and thus I have the idea of no matter how many sources I can include, you are just going to be able to say they are not notable, not mainstream. From the original Arguement of the nominator of having sources not dedicated to Gundam, you have moved the level higher onto an argument of needing to have sources not dedicated to Anime, and probably you will yet try to raise the bar to any sources dedicated to any sort of fan base, including models, anime, comics, novels, games, and any other thing you cannot name of but have a certain group of fans, and maybe just in case some star war fans are interested in Gundam, too, should not carry enough notablity as they are not mainstream, because you simply hate the fact that they are a source countering your argument. Oh, and I can add it up for you, a newspaper becoming immediately not mainstream if they have said anything about any of these Gundam mechas, why? because they are fan based, they are anime based, and center on the Gundam universe. Face it: Dengeki Hobby Magazine is a mainstream modeling and figure magazine that is even translated to 2 chinese version(Hong Kong and Taiwan), Hobby Japan only have Gundam as one of its nine sections, with at least 3 sections not related to Anime. And if you wanted to say that the section itself is not maintream publishers, anyone could have the same argument on anything, because you can even ignore any sources from CNN or BBC if you say that particular news is written by who is biased towards that topic. And No, wiki never states its sources have to be mainstream, if it got published, by a third party company, it is good enough as a source. It doen't matter if it is anime oriented or not, it is available on the market, people can read it and learn about what is written in it, it is good enough to be listed as a source stating how anything impacted anyone on writing that article of that particular thing. As a matter of facts, the Tokien Companion is a perfect source for books of J.R.R. Tokien. And thus a third party publisher writing anything on a topic should be a perfectly valid source.MythSearcher^talk 16:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, we're continuing our parade of bad arguments, and the next stop on your tour is a ignoratio elenchi. I'll play along and grant that these articles demonstrate a significant interest in the Gundamgoo that we're talking about. I'll do you one better, and say that it shows a notable real-world impact, and is thus meritous of inclusion. I don't agree with either of those statements, but we're pretending here, mmkay? Now, tell me what that has to do with the fact that the articles don't meet any of the burdens presented by WP:FICTION and WP:WAF? I'll give them to you again, since you must've missed them the first time. An article on a fictional topic should cover the following:

". . . the author or creator; the design; the development, both before its first appearance and over the course of the narrative; real-world factors that have influenced the work; for fictional characters in dramatic productions, the actor who portrayed the role and his or her approach to playing that character; its popularity among the general public; its sales figures (for commercial offerings); its reception by critics; a critical analysis of the subject; the influence of the work on later creators and their projects; and a summary of the plot or elements of character and exposition, treated briefly, and clearly defined as fictional."

The thrust of my argument has, since the beginning, been that the articles you defend do not meet the criterion established by Wikipedia consensus in reference to writing about fictional topics. Along the way, I've had to defend against the notion that model kits inherently equal notability, but you'll notice I end each response with a return to the original question. Tell me, dear sir, how these articles meet the expectations placed upon them by the guidelines of our encyclopedia? Consequentially 21:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

And I have answered it many times. I never said anything about keeping all of them, and I never said all of them are important, I am just saying the ones that recieve out of universe treatment, like having a model made and appearing in another anime not made by the authors and company of the original anime, and appearing in a published magazine, serveral times, satisfy having influenced the work of later creators and their projects. Since these are not real human acting, the people who design them(including original design and finishing and redesigns) should be listed and replace the point of the actor who portrayed the role. The real world factors that have influenced the work can be found in an interview(listed in the Official website) of the director and two other interviews of the mechanical designer(listed in Data files) who said the designs are influenced by some of the previous Gundam productions not designed by him. Reception by critics can be sourced from the model magazines which over and over stated these designs reference too much from the previous Gundam series and some even referenced non-Gundam series. More could be found in Game Express Magazine published in Hong Kong that Critically analyze by Jeto(similar pronounciation) the series of main mechas(in separate issues) about how the main characters use auto lock on instead of real piloting skills in massive genocide and how the other mechas are being just paper boards without even moving and aiming.(The last one I never state because even though I totally agree with him, I know that that critic does not recieve much credit for his articles of constantly bashing on new series and is being criticised for that) How some of these articles can meet the expectation of our encyclopedia is simple. It cannot cover every single point, but at least some of the articles can have enough coverage on how much it was influenced by previous productions and how much influence they have on the real world modeling, 3D modeling, and anime production of later creators. And sources are posted over and over again. And no, I keep saying the articles at their current state does not meet any of the guidelines and must be improved, and I am assuming good faith on people who are interested in them with the sources I have provided will do a good enough job. MythSearcher^talk 02:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If any of that information appeared in the articles in question, I'm sure things would've gone a lot differently than they have so far. But until those statements, sourced and correctly applied, appear in the articles, then they stand to be deleted. Which articles specifically will benefit from those additions? Not trying to attack you, just wanting to know which we'll be deleting. Consequentially 03:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I am constructing a list of what to do down there, I think if it is passed, we we have some sort of consensus dispite this trainwreck. However, I will use the word merge(and redirect) instead of delete. If they are redirected, it is highly likely that people that can find their information will not create a new page by copyvio from mahq or something like that. MythSearcher^talk 03:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, having real world context is essential, but an article not having them maybe just needed to improve, especially sources indicate they can be. You can always assume bad faith, but the deletion guide suggested a merge for these kind of articles instead of a delete. I know 1.3 states WP:NOT as a may be needed for deletion, however, again, I must say that this is only a straw man's explanation on the WP:NOT policy. The WP:NOT#IINFO have nothing stating about these kind of articles and obviously a lot of list articles here falls into Such a minor branch of a subject that it doesn't deserve an article This is why the nomiation is doomed to fail. It should not have started anyway. The nominator should just be bold and started merging them in the beginning(and no, a transwiki is just different from having a list on wiki unless we can redirect people to there without using an external link). Now it is listed, no one can do so because it is like blanking the pages. MythSearcher^talk 01:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If no one can show real-world impact for the articles on an AfD, then that is an extremely clear indicator is has no real-world impact. He's not coining the term "never be improved", he's showing it through evidence - evidence being that no one has shown any importance of any of the articles whatsoever. The sources you have given are NOT proof of a real-world impact. I have already explained it, please read it. You're giving me clear proof IQ is not an indicator of common sense, comprehension or intelligence itself - and no, that is not a personal vendetta or attack. --TheEmulatorGuy 05:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, keep ignoring the sources, everything that indicate they have an impact is dedicted to Gundam and should not be used, should not be listed and should not carry any notability since they are against your argument. Face it, the series is made by Sunrise, the models are made by Bandai, which are two different companies, that is enough prove of every single model made is an impact on the real world. The magazines are published by different companies, the books are published by different companies, anime made by other companies with no relationship to Sunrise that may infringe copyright problems are also shown as a proof and your common sense is ignoring anything that is against your argument, you have shown clear prove of ignorancy and yet you try to use personal attacks, POV and bad faith just to try to hook to your own nomination without even trying to link all of these together. Like I have said, I am not against deleting most of the articles, I am only against deleting them all blindly. MythSearcher^talk 06:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? Ignoring this sources? I clearly explained why the sources do not give leniancy to separate articles. This is because the "model kits" for each robot are part of a SERIES of model kits - it's not just this one little robot, it's all of the robots - they're not uniquely important - that is why a keep vote is complete nonsense in reference to those sources. --TheEmulatorGuy 21:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep AllBut condense the information... However, I think the whole premise of this motion is outrageous! Many of the points that the main person opposed to these articles (EmulatorGuy) has raised are vague, personal opinions which seem to have been raised on the basis of a personal vendetta. I like the way this material is called "useless" - useless to whom? It seems only to be useless to the people nominating the article and there are evidently plenty of people who find it quite useFUL. If we apply his model to the whole of Wikipedia: there will be no articles remaining for anyone to discuss or do anything with. It is obvious that many people want these articles to remain. This is supposed to be an open, public contributed resource of information, regardless of what spurious guidelines you care to spout out, (which seem more inane to me than most inclusions in these articles). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.18.135.215 (talk • contribs). — 195.18.135.215 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• • Reply: You don't seem to understand what I am basing this on. "Useless" is not my opinion, it is a gathered opinion based on the various policies and guidelines these articles violate. I have already given them many times, as have a few other users. Upon your claim of "resource of information, regardless of spurious guidelines", I invite you to give me any policy showing this. I suggest you read WP:NOT, because it is a POLICY showing what Wikipedia is NOT - it just happens to include the Gundam articles that a few people wish to keep for their own personal reasons. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of votes

Yes, polling is evil, but this afd is getting to the point that we need to see how the issue is split.
deleted list to save space and confusion

Please do not misrepresent my vote. I am Keep. Also, the nominator does not count. You seem to have completely mixed up your "votes." — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 01:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Polling is evil. I'm removing my name from the list below. BCoates 18:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a listing of "votes" from what I read:

Revised listing, italics indicate disputed votes, normal are those we both agree on:
Delete (15 to 18)

• RockMFR
• Ultra-Lose
• Fledgeling
• wtfunkymonkey
• natalie
• wafulz
• sr13
• dmz5
• sandstein
• terence ong
• quiteunusual
• duja
• haeleth
• montco
• seizuredog
• sidilemine
• kerochan no miko
• Ben Standeven

Keep (15 to 17)

• Hyperbole
• Dark Shikari
• atlantis hawk
• dnalpha — DNAlpha (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• danny lilithborne
• uncle g
• kyaa the catlord
• chrislk02
• bigmog — Bigmog (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• black-velvet
• zeromig — ZeroMig (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• l-zwei
• trollderella
• sidilemine
• kagurae
• kerochan no miko
• mythsearcher
• sharkface217

In addition, a number of non-voters have expressed the opinion that this AfD is against Wikipedia policy. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 01:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Reply: Indeed, more have voted to keep. However, if consensus is to "keep", Wikipedia does seem to support polling, since nearly all of the "keep" votes are ill-founded and ignore all of the issues brought up. But of course, there'll be a generic "no-consensus" just because there are more fanboys than people with common sense. I've yet to see one valid argument towards keeping the articles. No one has shown that ANY of the articles don't violate policies. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I had some human error in my counting, but you made you biased your list in the opposite direction. Ben's redirect should be considered a delete (since you have to delete to redirect) and SidiLemine and Kerochan no Miko only said keep unless it was transwiki-ed. So that's at least 18 to 16 17. wtfunkymonkey's vote probably shouldn't be considered, as it's both a delete and keep statement, so I say the voting stands at 18 to 15 16, delete being the majority. --SeizureDog 01:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to remind everybody of an official wikipedia policy, WP:IAR. That is the foudnign of my argument, I feel like these articles at least have some value and should not be deleted, per WP:IAR. I think that IAR, is for situations like this, when somebody, so badly wants something deleted, that they try to cover all of there bases. I think that AFD's should be for the people participating to do the resaerch and make a decision, not attempt to innoculate the voters by squasing every keep argument! - Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That all depends on what you think "improve" means. Because the encyclopedia is intended for normal people, not Gundam fans (no offense), the rule would not apply. Only a fan of the Gundam series would ever find that information helpful. Regardless, that policy itself seems to have problems. It seems to imply that I can upload an image that violates copyright laws just because it would make Wikipedia better. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

- (Stupid locked datebase lost my first post!)This is not something that everybody knows about. If it were an article on Food, it would be something most people know about. If I had a child or a good friend interested in this, I would come to Wikipedia to research, learn what I could. This is why I feel that WP:IAR applies here. IT is not something that is bad faith, like blatant uploading of copyright images, it is an area that most people dont know about and should get some coverage. In my opinion. (I dont even know what it is, I am not an advocate for whatever this is. but reading it, it seemed intersting enough to not be deleted. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It's information on quaternary robots of an in-universe fictional Japanese-created television show. Now explain why it should have coverage? I could apply the same defense to my foot. In your own words: This is not something that everybody knows about. If I had a child or a good friend interested in this, I would come to Wikipedia to research, learn what I could. It is not something that is bad faith, like blatant uploading of copyright images, it is an area that most people dont know about and should get some coverage. In my opinion. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

- At least we agree! It is not a bad faith edit! I am all for that. The foot analogy was pretty good. If your foot had a fan club, and there was something unique about your foot. (perhaps you have 123 toes) or your toes look like a star wars character or something, I would probably support keeping the article. If there was a TV show about your foot, I would be all for it! Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because they are part of something popular does not mean they are notable themselves. An even more popular series like Star Wars doesn't have a page on every droid. They are listed here, and what's more ridiculous is THE LIST is being accused of non-notability. Really, if that article is deleted and these aren't, that's hypocrisy at its best. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Nobody in this AfD has yet to prove that every single article linked to is non-notable or otherwise not worthy of a Wikipedia article. Until such proof is given, this entire AfD is meaningless: a blanket nomination is not an excuse to nominate articles for deletion without explaining why they should be deleted. — Dark Shikari ^talk/_contribs 02:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I have stated the policies and their violations, and the only way for that to be proven is for you to actually look at the articles. I should mention that no one has given a reliable source, nor have they disproven the accusations for ANY of the articles. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sick of defending every argument here. It just isn't worth it, no one wants to accept it and keeps ignoring logic. From here on I'll just stop and let the nomination get a "no consensus", which was clearly going to happen from the start. It's beyond me why anyone thinks these articles are notable, have reliable sources etc. etc. etc. I shouldn't bother, regardless of any of my arguments, Wikipedia administrators will base it on amount of votes (like they always do) and not the integrity of votes. I give up, you can have your articles if the administrator says so. If the nomination results in delete, that's fine, but it's just not worth pointlessly arguing with ignorance. --TheEmulatorGuy 02:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is your problem, you are being ignorant with my comment.

What is missing here? A list of what articles that are going to be deleted on this page.

It is important to tag a AfD on every page you want to include, but it is also important to let people know what is going to be deleted on the nomination page.

Yes, linking to the template works, to a certain point. However, it is not effective enough, especially the title of this page is Articles for deletion/CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series.

Another note: You have totally twisted Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought.

per WP:NOT#OR,

1. Primary (original) research such as proposing theories and solutions, original ideas, defining terms, coining new words, etc. If you have done primary research on a topic, publish your results in other venues such as peer-reviewed journals, other printed forms, or respected online sites, and Wikipedia will report about your work once it becomes part of accepted knowledge. Not all information added to Wikipedia has to be from peer-reviewed journals, but please strive to make sure that information is reliable and verifiable. For example, citing book, print, or reliable web resources demonstrates that the material is verifiable and is not merely the editor's opinion.

   Yes, there are sources, I have cited them in this page, I know they need to be in those pages instead, but I really have no interest in defending Cosmic Era related stuff.

2. Original inventions. If you invent the word frindle or a new type of dance move, it is not article material until a secondary source reports on it. Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day!

   No, those are not invented by writers of wiki. And in fact, there are magazines published in Japan as secondary sources reporting their exsistence. Your lack of knowledge on those is not a good excuse to ignore it is there.

3. Personal essays or Blogs that state your particular opinions about a topic. Wikipedia is supposed to compile human knowledge. It is not a vehicle to make personal opinions become part of human knowledge. In the unusual situation where the opinions of a single individual are important enough to discuss, it is preferable to let other people write about them. Personal essays on topics relating to Wikipedia are welcome in your user namespace or on the Meta-wiki. There is a Wikipedia fork at Wikinfo that encourages personal opinions in articles.

   Obviously not related to the discussion here.

4. Opinions on current affairs is a particular case of the previous item. Although current affairs may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced so as to put entries for current affairs in a reasonable perspective. Furthermore, Wikipedia authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete.

   Obviously not related to the discussion here.

5. Discussion forums. Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with folks on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles. There are a number of early-stage projects that attempt to use a wiki for discussion and debate.

   Obviously not related to the discussion here.

6. News reports. Wikipedia should not offer firsthand news reports on breaking stories. Wikipedia is not a primary source. However, our sister project Wikinews does exactly that, and is intended to be a primary source. Wikipedia does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known. See Current Events for examples.

   Obviously not related to the discussion here.

   Then per WP:NOT#IINFO:

7. Lists of Frequently Asked Questions. Wikipedia articles should not list FAQs. Instead, format the information provided as neutral prose within the appropriate article(s).

   These pages are not FAQs.

8. Travel guides. An article on Paris should mention landmarks such as the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre, but not the telephone number or street address of your favorite hotel or the price of a café au lait on the Champs-Élysées. Such details are, however, very welcome at Wikitravel, but note that due to license incompatibility you cannot copy content wholesale unless you are the copyright holder.

   Obviously not related to the discussion here.

9. Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered.

   Obviously not related to the discussion here.

10. Instruction manuals. While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instructions or advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes. Note that this does not apply to the Wikipedia: namespace, where "how-to"s relevant to editing Wikipedia itself are appropriate, such as Wikipedia:How to draw a diagram with Dia. If you're interested in a how-to style manual, you may want to look at Wikihow or our sister project Wikibooks.

    Obviously not related to the discussion here.

11. Internet guides. Wikipedia articles should not exist only to describe the nature, appearance or services a website offers, but should describe the site in an encyclopedic manner, offering detail on a website's achievements, impact or historical significance, which can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known. See current events for examples.

    Obviously not related to the discussion here.

12. Textbooks and annotated texts. These belong on our sister project, Wikibooks.

    Obviously not related to the discussion here.

13. Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.

    Like I have said above, some of the listed page for deletion actually impacted Other anime and manga by appearing in them, Some of these anime and manga are not produced by Bandai or Sunrise or any branch of them.

    Stop defining the policies to serve your own purposes, and cursing with ofending language like saying the Gundam wiki is an absolute cruft hellhole is not going to help either. MythSearcher^talk 03:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

    Reply: You make so many claims to sources, but where are they? :) --TheEmulatorGuy 03:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

機動戦士ガンダム MS大全集2006―MOBILE SUIT Illustrated 2006 published by Media Works, not Bandai, and thus it is a secondary source.

Primary source official guide book. Which is a inclusion of data file and mechanical files, I have mentioned as a source above, into one book. (I give no credits for the title of it since I am not a fan of Cosmic Era and hated it to be even called Gundam)

GUNDAM A (ガンダムエース) 2007年 01月号 and previous issues, published by 角川書店, not story based magazine.

Hobby JAPAN (ホビージャパン) and 電撃 HOBBY MAGAZINE (ホビーマガジン) model based magazines, not gundam specific but with a lot of information about what are the models used for in the plot. If you want to ask me for the issue date and number, I will tell you every single issue contains Gundam Models, I do not have time to go through each one to modify the articles about which issue they are from.

Newtype Magazine with more detailed articles about mechanical and character data that are not just plot summary.

More real world impact includes GUNDAM CG WORKS―MODELING TECHNIQUES FOR MOBILE SUIT, Magical Nurse Komugi series by Tatsunoko, not Sunrise, [11] series by Leaf, having a Freedom Gundam and Strike Gundam appearing in it. In the Game Super Robot Wars alpha 3, most of the Mecha piloted by main characters and rolled out as mass production units are present.

I am only listing these to support the exsistence of some articles, not all of them. I do know a lot of them do not deserve their own page. Like I've said, I would have follow the WP:FICT and delete/redirect most of the pages without going through this AfD process if I'd knew these pages exsisted. The chinese wiki entries like these are so much simplier, we just merge and redirect everything without even putting up something like this. If fans can find enough data in the list of mecha, they will not create new page for every single one of them. MythSearcher^talk 06:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You're misinterpreting the guts of WP:FICT. The fact that some of these things appeared in another anime about big robots does not mean that they significantly impacted said anime. These big robots haven't significantly affected anything. The television show, perhaps, has made a dent in the Great Big Timeline of Stuff, but I'm willing to bet, when it all comes down to the line, no one is going to say, "Thank God for the ZGMF-600 GuAIZ. Were it not for this twenty-meter-tall, eighty-ton mass of metals and guns, my life would be completely void of meaning." WP:FICT makes the argument for real-world reference and analysis because Wikipedia is not a Gundam fan site, and the sum cultural value of the Gundam series is not going to be that Pilot X stole it from Evil Nemesis Q, who was going to use it against Innocent Population T, but instead managed to defeat Otherworldly Monster N, and is the reason for the ring of space debris floating around Planet U. The fact that someone else has devoted time and webspace to listing these facts does not make them worthy of encyclopedic apotheosis. Consequentially 21:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

While certainly nothing in this AfD (which hits a swathe of over 85 articles, which when the related AfD for the non-mecha vehicles of this same series is added, tops 100 articles all told) is of life-shaking importance, there are several articles in here which are at least as notable as, say, X-wing or USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D). Iceberg3k 21:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't read the X-Wing article until now. Having done so, I'd say it's pretty crappy, and a poor example of writing on a fictional topic. Only three or four of the paragraphs relate to real-world content, with the other 4/5 of the page devoted to Star Wars treknobabble. That article needs cleaned up, purged of irrelevant and trivial knowledge, and polished, but I digress. Since I'm not familiar with the intimate details of Gundam stuff, I'll trust you that some of the units mentioned are of value to the series. Could you give some examples of the ones you think should be kept, and provide a rationale for them? I don't mean that as a mean-spirited challenge: I'm not attacking you and demanding you come forth like some kind of deletionist McCarthy. Just help us sort the wheat from the chaff, so we can make something productive out of this. Consequentially 02:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I've already conceded that the "grunt" units should be compressed into summary articles by nationality (ZAFT/PLANT, Earth Alliance and Orb are the relevant nationalities). The "star" units - the Gundams (such as the GAT-X105 Strike Gundam and ZGMF-X09A Justice Gundam) - should absolutely be kept and revised to an out of universe perspective, as they're piloted by major characters, have a lot of screen time (for the five GAT-X series units from the first show, over 10 hours individual screen time each). Iceberg3k 03:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm in complete agreement with you there, and I think that's an acceptable compromise between the two extremes being presented in this debate. As I know only vaguely of the Gundam world, I'm not in a position to make those changes, but since you seem to be on the ball there, I think it's a solution that you should pursue aggressively. Consequentially 04:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

May I remind everyone that AFD is not a vote, it's a debate please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments. It doesn't matter how many people voted and what they voted for--it's the quality of the arguments that matter. May I also remind everyone that adding tally boxes to AFD is listed in the "what not to do section. --Kunzite 05:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment While MAHQ copyvio issue are solid on several articles, several other aren't. Many article existed long before MAHQ upgrade their profile into Burke's type. These articles only borrow general info like spec, which state at MAHQ that it's free-use. Some articles was translated from Japaneese article. In short, if you made seperate nom on each article, the copyvio issue will be solid. But for all of them? Nah... L-Zwei 06:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, those spec fall into the category of factual data and thus any use of them will not hinder any copyright problems. It is just like listing out how many times a soccer player had scored in one particular season. MythSearcher^talk 06:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment I cannot believe how uncivil the original nominator of this AfD has been on this page. He's also threatened that if this does not pass that he will be giving the "administrator a refresher on AfD". I'm shocked and appalled by his behavior and I certainly hope I'm not the only one. Kyaa the Catlord 11:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I've never seen any Gundam, but I have a strong feeling that most, if not all, of these articles are about things that only appeared briefly in an episode or two. Any character/etc. that does not have at least ~30 minutes worth of focused airtime is too minor to have an article about. Can it be established that any of these weapons have had enough focus within the series that they need to be kept? It just gets worse outside of the nominated articles. I mean, Missile truck? Come on, it doesn't even have a name. --SeizureDog 11:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply I agree that some of these articles deserve AfD-ing, but the majority of them do not. This was a bad nom period. If TheEmulatorGuy wants to have them deleted he should have done so on an individual basis. It is terribly unfair to judge the primary mech which are included in the template on the same level as your mentioned Missile truck. Kyaa the Catlord 11:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Replay Those this format of nominating work for you? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cosmic Era vehicles Even grouping them together is a major hassle: doing them one by one would be even worse. Plus, I think it's best to keep them together and not scattered about. --SeizureDog 12:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply Its better, but I wouldn't suggest making mass deletion noms out of principle. For example, the Skygrasper in this new Nom is one of the more featured air/spacecraft of the show and some of the main characters involved in the story fly them. A lot of those articles I agree should go, or at the very least be merged together. I wonder if there was originally a large article that was split.... Kyaa the Catlord 12:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to get people to review them seperately, but I think most of the keepers are just giving a blind support. I'm welling to accept some of the articles being important enough to stay, but people have to point out which they are.--SeizureDog 13:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, now that I've become aware that there is a wikiproject dedicated specifically to these articles, I'm more in favor of informing them of the problems and letting them fix them period. Kyaa the Catlord 13:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

From what I see in the series, its worst. The mass-production models appear in the series as paper boards and have probably less than 5 actions each. They fly out and get destroyed by the main characters without even having the need of dodging or aiming(aiming is done by an automatic fire control system, much less powerful than the F-22 onboard FCS). The same sequence keep on and on just to show how powerful the main characters are(failure attempt to most people with normal level of judgement, i.e. that are not blind). That is why I am really into merging those into one big list. As per WP:FICT. No voting is needed according the WP:FICT for minor characters to be merged into a list, if there isn't already a AfD tag on the page, I would have done so when I knew pages like this exsisted. I only followed a vandal's path of vandalism and figured these mecha have their own page and someone tagged AfD on it so that nothing can be done to blank them, yet. MythSearcher^talk 14:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

While I'm in favor of merging for most of the "grunt" suits, may I suggest merging them by national affiliation? A general "Mecha of Gundam SEED" article that possesses large enough descriptions of each mobile suit to remain useful would actually be well beyond the size of this AfD discussion. Iceberg3k 17:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, one big list is too long, it should be shortened by nation or series(like the list of RGM-79 GM) if the list became too long. That is what we did on the Characters of Negima page. MythSearcher^talk 17:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• VERY STRONG KEEP per above. - Plau 12:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Very strong keep, per above. Mass AfDs are NOT kosher. There may well be articles in the template that should be deleted, they like all other articles should be considered for deletion on a case by case basis, not en masse. The AfD opener's concerns should rationally be addressed by improving, not deleting, the articles. Is there cruft in the Gundam WikiProject? Definitely. Should large groupings of articles be deleted in one fell swoop? Hell no. Iceberg3k 14:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, there are fancruff, and thus they should be improved, not blindly deleted. MythSearcher^talk 14:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there ought to be a WikiPolicy to explicitly ban mass deletions, myself. Each article submitted for deletion deserves a complete, thorough and individual investigation, and mass deletions strike me more and more with each one as a deliberate abuse of the rules. If the deletionists think that's a pain in the ass, that's too damned bad, you can't just say something is useless and needs to be deleted just because you don't like it. A lot of mass AfDs are attempted, most of them fail. For very good reason.Iceberg3k 17:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment And the bullying of fictional articles continues. To the person who commented most of these probably only get brief screentime- most of the mecha profiled appear in just about every episode. I'm reminded of the example someone cited in the Moebius delete- how come entries for Star Trek ships are kept but not these? Then again, I'm sure someone will shove 'WP:ICANBULLYYOU' in my face...--HellCat86 14:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Very Strong Keep. It is possible some articles must be joined, some even must be revived either into collections or article (Such as TS-MA2 Mobius article), and some other must be kept. I against mass deletions per nom above. Other had been discussed above. I am using WP:IAR, based on rationale: if you put infos into one page, it would be an "explosion". Gundam articles (included Cosmic Era related articles) has deep background story which is useful. Draconins 14:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all, Wikipedia should not be going into anywhere near this much detail about this sort of thing. Recury 16:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment WP:NOT needs much more significant clarification than it currently possesses. In particular, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information can be abused to provide a blanket rationale for virtually any deletion. Iceberg3k 16:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Per wictionary, Indiscriminate means, "without care or making distinctions, thoughtless ". I do not think these articles are thorughless. (This is just kind of reinfocring what Iceberk3k said. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 16:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Also, there's a disturbing and increasing tendency for people to equate "I am not part of this fandom" with "this subject is not important." Iceberg3k 16:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
      • That was kind of the point in my original argument for keep (its up there somewhere). I think an encylopedia should hold more stuff I dont know about than stuff I do know about already! Somebody knows alot about this stuff(I sure dont). However, they want to share the information and I am ok with keeping it. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 16:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • The problem I have is, coming in as someone who hasn't seen the show but has read the article Gundam, I have no idea why the information on these pages is important. It strikes me as being as unencylopedic as reporting the exact dimensions of every prop used in star trek, or a data dump of the internal numbers used in a video game ("headcrab has 37 hitpoints, and does 20 hitpoints of damage. 9mm bullet does 40 hitpoints of damage, except on hard difficulty, where it does 20..."). It's not like we're considering deleting all or even most of the articles dedicated to a single franchise; as far as I can tell these don't even touch on the plot, characters, fanbase, criticism, impact on the real world, etc., just the props. BCoates 18:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Some of the articles should be merged. That's not the point. The Gundams used by the major characters are important enough to warrant individual articles, because like the X-wing, they are really important, unique props which are used by main characters of the show through a significant part of the story arc, and are practically characters in their own right. Grunt suits, no question, should be merged together by nationality for convenience's sake, there are useless articles in the AfD. But there are also important articles in it, and that's why the overall AfD should fail. Iceberg3k 18:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
            • Can we have some examples of articles that deserve to be kept linked here somewhere? BCoates 20:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
              • GAT-X105 Strike Gundam, ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam and ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom Gundam, to start with (those being the mobile suits used through the series by the primary protagonist, Kira Yamato). The articles need heavy-duty improvements throughout, but that's why WP:CE exists in the first place. Iceberg3k 20:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Very strong keep. Gundam is an important anime and although some informations come from MAHQ, the articles also include more informations and thus can't be seen as simply a copy. Diabound00 17:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

keep allthe article does hve element from mahq with there primission given on the site faq. there info may have been lifted from here. but if we remove this article hat's next are we removeing all cult scifi like doctor who or are we removing anything not north american i say wee keep it and let the fans fix it - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.118.124.3 (talk • contribs). — 128.118.124.3 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Also note that this is the second keep all registered by this IP.

The fans had a chance to fix it. They had a whole year in fact, but all of the articles are still highly confusing, in-universe, full of trivia, and have no sources. Nothing is going to change. --TheEmulatorGuy 20:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That is not for you to decide. WP:CE exists for a reason. Iceberg3k 20:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the birth of WP:CE, which followed many of the formats found in WP:DIGI. That project never really got off the ground, which is too bad. This AfD might be what is needed to start the project back up again in order to do this large scale cleanup. My point is, WP:CE.. really isn't a project right now. Currently, WP:CE does not exist for a reason, and isn't a functional WikiProject. -- Ned Scott 00:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete These pages violate WP:NOT a list of indiscriminate information, per nom. Darkspots 02:00, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Merge The way I see it, every article in Template:Cosmic Era mobile weapons can be classified as such:

Earth Alliance

• G-Weapons (Duel, Buster, Strike [including Strike Rouge], Blitz, Aegis)
  • "Dagger" units (Strike Dagger, 105 Dagger, Dagger L, Windam, and the more extraneous information in the Duel, Buster, and Blitz articles)
  • Stargazer G-Weapon derivatives (Blu Duel, Verde Buster, and Strike Noir)
• Mobile Armors (Moebius/Moebius Zero, Exass, Euclid, Pergrande, Zamza-Zah, Gells-Ghe)
• Second-generation EA Gundams (Calamity, Forbidden, Raider, and derivatives)
• Miscellaneous (Destroy and Hyperion)

ZAFT

• GINN, CGUE, and GuAIZ series
  • GINN derivatives (BABI, DINN, ZuOOT, BuCUE, LaGOWE, GOOhN, ZnO, ASH)
  • CGUE and GuAIZ derivatives (DEEP Arms and Experimental Firearms Type)
• First-generation ZAFT Gundams (Dreadnought, Justice, Freedom, Regenerate, Testament, and Providence)
• Second-generation ZAFT Gundams (Chaos, Abyss, Gaia, Saviour, Impulse, Destiny, Legend, and related units)
• ZAKU, GOUF, and DOM series [even though the DOM Trooper technically belongs to Terminal]

ORB Union/Clyne Faction/Terminal

• Astray series suits (Red Frame, Blue Frame, Gold Frame, production-model Astray, and related units)
• Second-generation ORB Union mobile suits (Murasame and Akatsuki)
• Terminal-produced Gundams (Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice)

Other

• Anything and everything that doesn't fit into the aforementioned categories (Astray Out Frame, Stargazer, et cetera [can't be bothered to go into specifics])

It's a rough outline of how each article should be merged, but at least it's a start regarding how to consolidate this mess of articles into a more streamlined construct. WP:CE just might find something to set its sights on after all this time.--Kira Matthews 03:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To all inclusionist (Keepers)

Anyone who actually wanted to keep the pages, at least show some motivation in using the above listed source(by me) in the articles (make a template, it would be much easier) to reduce the number of people coming here saying the articles should be deleted because they are unsourced. 機動戦士ガンダム MS大全集2006―MOBILE SUIT Illustrated 2006 and This is Our Gundam, Seed-Destiny version should serve as a secondary and primary source(respectively). I am no fan of the Cosmic Era, only someone who dwelt in the Gundam Community long enough that I know what sources contains information for them so I can win arguments against Cosmic Era fans without any sources backing them up and still try to say bad things about other series. I have no motivation in contributing in Cosmic Era series related pages unless they contain major error like fans saying there are Newtypes in Cosmic Era when I know no sources can back them up. Thus you guys have to do the job yourselves if you are to protect any page you like. I hate people who sit there and say that what services need to be provided but keep sitting there without any actual work. Be warned, if I ever got the motivation to go through those pages, I am going to be bold and redirect most of them to a list instead of adding sources to them. MythSearcher^talk 18:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like I've got some work to do. I'll attempt to correct some sources to be more accurate, dig through my pile of magazines and books as well ASAP.--216.186.174.146 00:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC) — 216.186.174.146 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• KeepJ'onn J'onzz 22:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Do you have any reasoning behind this? This isn't a poll, so if you don't provide a reason, your vote is pointless. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete All per nomination. Honestly speaking, there’s always discussion of how these articles should be improved. The problem is that no one cares enough to do anything at all, and I don’t believe that’ll change anytime soon. Even though a large chunk of my edits on Wikipedia involve these very articles, I have no attachment to them. They’re just too bloated at this point. And as pointed out earlier, they’ve been transwikied, so I don’t believe we’ll lose any information. These articles simply don’t belong on Wikipedia. DarkWarrior 00:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: Per suggestion to DarkWarrior. Also, can images trans-wikied, citing the appropriate sources of course? --Blackhawk charlie2003 04:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Reply to COMMENT regarding fate of individual articles, I hereby list a brief summary of what I think should be kept and what should not. My argument for keeping these are either they have appeared in more than three or more media by at least 2 different companies I have list here:
  

• Anime(GS, GSD, GS Stargazer) by Sunrise
  
• Novel and Manga(GSA, GSAB, GSDA, GSAR, GSXA, GSDA) by Kadokawa
  
• Manga(GS, GSD) by Kodansha
  
• Anime(Gundam Evolve) by Bandai
  
• Model by Bandai, note: GS and GSD series model kits are dedicated to the series itself and is not notable here, I only refer to the MG series kits and EX model series kits where Bandai made kits not only for Gundam but also Patlabor, Dunbine, L-Gaim, Ace Combat and Yukikaze.
  
• Game(Alliance VS ZAFT, Alliance VS ZAFT II, Never-Ending Tomorrow) by Bandai
  
• Game(SD Gundam G Generation series, Super Robot Wars series) by Banpresto
  
• Anime(Magical Nurse Komugi) by Tatsunoko
  
• Book(MS Encyclopedia 2003, 2006) by Media works
  
• Book(GUNDAM CG WORKS―MODELING TECHNIQUES FOR MOBILE SUIT) by ビーエヌエヌ新社

Keeps:

CAT1-X1/3 Hyperion: GSXA Kadokawa, Evolve Bandai, Game Bandai, Model Bandai, Book Media works.

5 G(Strike, Duel, Aegis, Buster, Blitz): Anime Sunrise, Model Bandai, Game Bandai, Manga Kondansha, Book Media works, Book ビーエヌエヌ新社.

ZGMF-X10A Freedom and ZGMF-X09A Justice: Anime Sunrise, Model Bandai, Game Bandai, Manga Kondasha, Manga Kodogawa, Book Media works, Game Banpresto, Anime Tatsunoko

YMF-X000A Dreadnought: Anime Bandai, Model Bandai, Game Bandai, Game Banpresto, Manga Kodogawa, Manga Kondasha, Book Media works.

Merges that should not be merged into the big list due to notability in the overall importantness of them in the series and some level of separatedness of them and other Generic Paper board targets:

TMF/A-802 BuCUE and TMF/A-803 LaGOWE, Merge these two, due to their design impacting the design of Gaia in GSD anime and also their oddness of the Gundam series of non-humanoid MS appearance: Anime Sunrise, Model Bandai, Game Bandai, Manga Kondansha, Manga Kodokawa, Game Banpresto.

ZGMF-X19A Infinite Justice and ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom be merged to Justice and Freedom, they are not very notable other than being the mecha main protongists pilot, esp when they are just kinda like upgrades of those two: Anime Sunrise, Model Bandai, Game Bandai, Manga Kondasha, Manga Kodogawa, Book Media works, Game Banpresto.

Astray Red, blue, gold frame, separated from main list due to all the manga story are based on the Astray series(and thus all of them carry the name Astray in them): Anime Bandai, manga Kodogawa, manga Kondasha, model Bandai, Game Banpresto.

Arguable items

The GS and GSD both have a team of three piloting three different Gundam units that the main protongist fight against, these units mainly appeared only in the series and games by Bandai, they are not even a main element in the plot(none of them stayed in the series for more than half of the series). They recieve a little more treatment by having models in the GS and GSD series but not much in the Bandai regular series like the MG models. (Almost all important ones have MG models). I do not view them as having any appearance in the model because it is only one of the GS and GSD series models which are named as dedicated to those two series. Even if they exsist outside the main lists, they should be merged to the three in the team instead of having their own page.

MythSearcher^talk 14:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There are also, IMO, four articles from GSD that should be kept: ZGMF-X56S Impulse, ZGMF-X42S Destiny, ZGMF-X666S Legend and ZAFT Armored Keeper of Unity (though this article namespace ought to be changed to "ZAKU (Gundam Seed)"). These ones are the main character suits from GSD that aren't sequel units to the ones in GS.

Iceberg3k 22:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I knida oppose keeping these, since they don't even have their own model kits out of the series(like MG and MIA). MythSearcher^talk 03:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Question I think the articles should be merged, so what should I vote? AzureIcicle 20:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • This is a discussion not votes. To suggest merging, say Merge followed by where to merge. —Doug Bell ^talk 22:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per TRAINWRECK. Articles need individual consideration, not mass forced resolutions. The ideal solution is probably a coordinated merge for most of them. --tjstrf talk 22:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not a good example to work from. Those articles are [mostly major] characters in World of Warcraft, not [mostly minor] weapons in Gundam. They're different situations. You haven't explained why these articles need individual consideration - it would help if you gave PROPER real-world impact (not obscure model kits) to ONE of the articles in order to separate them from others. As an administrator has commented at the start of the page, blanket nominations are not improper at all, unless you have GOOD reason - so far you've just stated your opinion with no reasoning. --TheEmulatorGuy 22:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Emulator, all you have done in this whole discussion is continued reassertion of your initial premise. It's already been firmly established that you believe there is no viable content to be had from these articles, which is debated by other posters (including posters who are not fans of the Gundam Seed universe), so further reiteration of this argument is pretty well pointless. If by this point, where viable post-AfD plans have been mentioned and posted, which satisfy the requirements of policy, you are still sticking to your original premise and demanding that the entire article complex be thrown away, in spite of all apparent evidence that contradicts your original argument (which was based on a pretty twisted interpretation of policy to begin with), you simply have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation from this point on (really, you have contributed nothing meaningful since the initial nomination). The consensus appears to be keep some, merge most, and that is probably what the discussion should be closed on. Iceberg3k 23:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Evidence? Ahahahaha, oh dear, ahahaha. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The reason I linked to that debate was for the opening. I don't care what the subject of the AfD was, merely the following lines:

"The result was USELESS TRAINWRECK FROM WHICH NO CONSENSUS CAN EMERGE. This isn't going anywhere, as far too many articles were bundled together into a single AFD.
If someone wants to open a much smaller (not more than four articles at a time, please) AFD on one or some of these articles so that the individual merits of specific articles can be discussed, feel free to do so. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)"

It doesn't matter what the subject is, you've constructed an AfD that is fundamentally impossible to evaluate because it presently requires every editor read 84 articles in order to give a valid opinion. I'm not reading all those pages, you doubtless didn't read all those pages, there's no way we can expect the rest of the voters to read all those pages either. Because of this, any conclusion made as a result of this AfD will be invalid. --tjstrf talk 23:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, fine, have it your way. If you require 7 months to get rid of the articles (that's how long it's going to take) instead of 2 weeks just for "individual merit" reasons, that's fine, I give up. I've claimed to give up many times, but only because the constant ignorance infuriates me to keep coming back. I'll let you ignore the fact ANY separate article for a weapon in Gundam is against policy, because obviously we need fucking "individual merit". Before this bastard of a debate closes, just tell me one thing - A FUCKING VALID ARGUMENT TOWARDS THE POLICIES GUNDAM WEAPON ARTICLES VIOLATE. It hasn't happened yet, and I don't think it will. Congratulations, you've won. Who knows why you wanted to win. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Because I hate mass AfD noms, essentially. They generate these utterly massive deletion discussions that ALWAYS close no consensus, which means the nominator just wasted hours of numerous peoples's time. And if it takes 7 months for you to merge these pages, you must type really slowly. Also WP:CIV, swearing doesn't help anything. --tjstrf talk 07:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Close Discussion This afd is just a mess, we shouldn't make a decision here one way or the other on this. Next time, I suggest the nominator be more specific rather than trying to delete 84 articles at once. Just H 23:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It may be that this needs to be broken into smaller chunks. However, the other side of this issue is that having the same people make the same arguments in 84 different discussions is also not useful. It would be helpful if the people arguing for a finer-grained deletion discussion could delineate some middle ground between 1 and 84 AfDs so that we can move forward instead of stagnating. Without wanting to prejudice the discussion, I will say that it seems to me that at minimum there is a consensus here that some of the articles should go, so maybe some consensus can at least be reached on which ones those are. For at least that reason, I think it is premature at this time to close this discussion. —Doug Bell ^talk 00:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment I am unable to see them, there's just too much clutter on this page, but you may be right that some consensus has been reached in some areas. With that, I would just say go with it where there seems to by holding a "tentative consensus" there to see if it works and try to winnow down the lesser articles quickly by merge or deletion proposals. Just H 03:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I could pick 84 Wikipedia articles at random, and some of them would be good-quality, while others would be tripe. I'll bet the situation's the same with these ones. The nest is well and truly stirred, now let's all take a deep breath, and find a place to discuss which articles are good and which ones need work. AfD is NOT the place for that discussion. I did quite like the citing of TRAINWRECK precedent, though. Made it worth the read. Quack 688 10:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Reply comment I guess it is because it happened that all the 84 randomly selected articles are not of good quality? lol I must admit the work going into these articles are towards a not very good direction. Most of them are just going for 1) plot summary of what happened to that unit(or the series of them) and 2) the settings spec of them. While little can be found on what they have impacted, even with the handful of sources I can just pull up that should be included into the articles long ago. (I have not read any of these articles before, even if I made like a little edit on them, it is most likely that I am tracing a vandal's path of vandalization and only revert those without actually looking at the articles.) Most of them could be improved, at least the lot of Seed mecha can be said to have impacted the Seed-Destiny mechas and have appearance in Super Robot wars. However, little was included in these, and I have no interest and time in improving these because I have an even longer list of Universal Century Mechas to work on, before some deletionist list the few hundred mechas AfD, I have to do what I can to either merge them or improve them to a point where it is good enough to meet any policy creep keeping criteria. MythSearcher^talk 14:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and comments from an outsider, without the least interest in the subject, but fascinated by the length of the discussion.

The very fact of requiring so much discussion is evidence that the subject is worthy of presentation in WP, There would not be so much heat over a truly non-notable group of characters.

And there is so much heat that an outsider must wonder whether ther is some subtext about this particular series. Anime AfDs come up frequently here, and do not get anywhere near this attention. Why this one? DGG 06:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Not so. The only reason why this has generated so much heat is because of the sheer size - this would set a massive precedent if all of the articles were deleted. So all of the editors are jumping into this melee, inclusionists and deletionists alike, to put their two cents in. "Intense discussion =/= worth of inclusion." GNAA had to go through 18 nominations and dozens of talk page archives, but it was eventually deleted because it did not adhere to the standards of WP:V and WP:RS. Those two policeis overruled all discussion about the "notability" of the topic. Hbdragon88 06:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply In this case, the original poster should not have used the afd process in this manner. This is a clear case where these articles need work, in some cases they need to be tagged for cleanup, in others they need merging, in yet a few more they need to be deleted. This is a bad case in which to try a mass proposal. Kyaa the Catlord 07:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with Kyaa. The only situation in which a mass nom will work is if you run two-three test case pages, then nom the rest and cite the previous debate. Also, the GNAA should never be cited as a precedent for anything, ever. --tjstrf talk 07:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've been aware that mass noms have not worked since watching Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Warcraft character articles go down in flames. Hbdragon88

Not that the Warcraft AfD was the first attempt at such a thing, of course. It was just the most memorable one, what with AMiB's flair for drama and that trainwreck line. --tjstrf talk 08:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The only way it would work is probably listing items out like in the other mass AfD for the CE vehicles. Never treat every article listed as generic, because they are not the same, especially to fans, they are never the same and thus treating them the same is only going to make things worst. I have learnt that lesson long ago. MythSearcher^talk 09:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep, User:martin_00792 Important anime, I can argue that most of the articals could infact be CHARACTERS THAT INFLUANCE PLOT, and they are present in more that one medium.

[edit] Whee! Section Break!

• Comment - I'd just like to say that this AfD is a complete catastrophe, and that each article should , really, be AfD'd seperately. If this goes through it will end up in DRV because of the Inclusionists here. As a Deletionist, I'm not really ... happy ... with the way this is laid out, since it's a bit of work to look through all the articles and Gundam makes me see red anyway. That being said, some of these articles are possible copyvios. Some are just summaries. Some could, theoretically, be expanded. Mass AfD's rarely succeed since most people will not axe huge clumps of information without being sure every single one deserves the axe. This one will go down as no consensus, so a good and careful look at most of the articles in this series is needed by those voting to keep on how to expand them, or in a few days I'll go through AfDing the crap ones and voting they get salted. --Elaragirl^Talk|Count 15:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of all that is non-flamewar-causing, let us do some editing and merging before any new AfDs go out. This AfD is a train wreck because the initial poster was so goddamned determined to get the whole mass AfD deleted without any sort of compromise that he was willing to ignore policy to try to get it done (recall that he threatened to immediately re-nominate the whole thing if the result came up "no consensus" and to "teach the administrators a lesson" if the result came up "keep"); emotions need time to settle before further delete action should be taken, IMO. And I don't think ANYBODY will benefit from a precedent that shows that a huge group of articles can be summarily, collectively deleted by somebody with an obvious axe to grind. Iceberg3k 16:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Please remember WP:NPA and WP:AGF. Also, he didn't "threaten" to simply repost the AfD; he said that if it came up no-consensus for being overly broad he'd make individual delete nominations, which is exactly what should be done. BCoates 22:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Pointing out somebody's bad behavior isn't a "personal attack." Please learn the difference between criticism and fallacy of attack ad hominem. Bad faith has been demonstrated, I don't need to assume good faith in the face of evidence to the contrary. Iceberg3k 23:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Question do actual merging of the articles go against the Do not blank the page rule on the AfD tag? MythSearcher^talk 16:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all Notable anime. --Oakshade 18:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Having spent hours going through the debate and looking at the articles, I can only say that the nomination is correct in every respect. Delete Emeraude 20:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

VERY STRONG KEEP As one has already stated, Gundam is a very notable anime. Besides, from what I've seen, those who want it deleted...you're not doing so well...only one article is gone...so, I think I've made my point. GrievousAlpha95 4:09 PM, December 4, 2006.

• Shut down this ridiculous monstrosity (keep) for the time being. I'm not a fan of Gundam, however it appears that there are plenty of users who know where to merge and redirect these articles, so I think they should be given the chance to do so. Nominating 84 articles at once is not going to solve any problems these articles may have; merging, redirecting and such will, and will prevent the articles from being recreated with policy-violating content again. If nothing is done to correct the obvious problems that these articles have, then the nominator will certainly have the opportunity to kill them with fire in the future, and I think he'd be more successful with this discussion backing him. Catbag 22:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• VERY STRONG ARGUE AROUND IN CIRCLES -- Hahaha, not really but, really, this is getting pretty far out of hand and I see NO chance of consensus being reached here. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 23:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep on the grounds of the previous Warcraft failure, the fact there so many articles points towards relevance, and the age old Pokemon test. BrendantheJedi 23:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Commemnt But it should also be noted that I think a lot the articles need to put in cleanup and/or merged. Variations of the same damn thing don't deserve two articles. This goes for some Universal Century MS as well.BrendantheJedi 23:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I say KEEP as all these mobile suits have a part in the sotry although some are lightly listed like the hyperion and why dont we seperate some on the same page (except for the Duel gunam with assault shroud our should that be split... anywho we need to keep this even STRIKE FREEDOM is listed for deleton i mean come on im using this page for specs on the gundams--Spartan117009 03:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep everything. Put the major suites in their own articles and put the minor suits into repsective production lists. In this manor you should be able to create something akin to the character templates for Fullmetal Alchemist. TomStar81 (Talk) 12:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restate, reword suggestions, hoping for a consensus

More and more people pop in and say keep, I hate to say this, but if we can say we have the least consensus here, it is merge, not keep, most of the articles. If you only want spec data for something, go to [www.mahq.net MAHQ.net], or the trans wiki link posted somewhere in the middle of this trainwreck. Or if we merged the pages, the spec will still be there. Here is what I propose, and is probably closest to people who actively participated in this discussion want. (I do not count the people who just come out and drop down a sentence without actually wanting to contribute and wished a blind keep).

[edit] Keeps

• GAT-X105 Strike, and have GAT-X105E Strike Noir and GAT-01 Strike Dagger merged in to that page.

Reasons - Influenced at least 2, if not 3 later design in the sequel of the series, the only Perfect grade model of the series, used as the front page of a 3D modeling teaching book about all Gundam, not Seed only. Said to be one of the more realistic military based design of the mechanical designer Kunio Okawara by Dengeki Hobby. Been a featured topic of a model convention in Japan by Hobby Japan.

Reasons for merge of others - they are of a subdivision of Strike, either mass-production or special unit. They have not recieve any special treatment from the company Bandai, and thus are generic enough to be merged, if not deleted.

• ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam, and have ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom merged to it. If possible, merge the Justice page and the ZGMF-X1?? series under this page. more details will be stated in the section Suggested merges below. For now, I treat those as they could be separated.

Reasons - Influenced said merge mecha in the sequel, recieved treatment of having a Master Grade model of its own and the same series only have Strike Gundam having the same treatment. Featured in the Game Super Robot Wars along with a lot of well known mecha in Japan, and have a cameo appearance in the anime Nurse Witch Komugi, produced by Tatsunoko productions, which have no relationship with Bandai and is actually sort of a rivaling company.

Reasons for merge of others - Strike Freedom is more of an upgrade of Freedom, although it is going to have its own Master Grade model soon(December, 2006), more have to be shown in a keep since it does not influence anything, yet. I see no reason for keeping it for now, if it can recieve more attention by publishers and the company, it could be split back out at any time.

For Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice: Not quite usual upgrade. Not even a variant. That why we place F-15 and F-15E, F18 and F18E/F, separately. They are quite distinct, they have quite a story (Though original Freedom has more). Though they take much previous design, it is quite different, except some source say so. I never see any source which say they are upgrades. This may be only speculation, however, Freedom, Justice, Strike Freedom, Infinite Justice, receive different code (X10A,X9A,X20A,X19A respectively). I may agree if asked to merge Infinite Justice, but not the Strike Freedom based on notability. Draconins 12:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weak keeps

• YMF-X000A Dreadnought Gundam and CAT1-X Hyperion Gundam series

Reasons - First appeared in MSV, influenced the author of the manga to include them into the manga(which is not a retell of the anime), no out of the series model kits have been made for it, but it is featured in Gundam Evolve, a series not dedicated to Gundam Seed or related series, the only other appearance of a Seed series mecha is Strike. I would like to say merging them but having only 2 in a list without any relationship in the design plot is kinda wierd. Hoping for a better suggestion here.

• TMF/A-802 BuCUE and merge TMF/A-803 LaGOWE to it.

Reasons - This one influenced the designer of the sequel Destiny to design ZGMF-X88S Gaia Gundam and another sequel Stargazer the TMF/A-802W2 Kerberos BuCUE Hound (which is, fortunately, already under this page) One of the rare non-humanoid Mobile Suit of the Gundam series. (Stated by Degeki Hobby and Hobby Japan magazine model reviews.)

Reasons for merge of others - A comander type of an exsisting mecha is not notable enough for a new article, please, by all means, merge them.

Any source that this mecha is only commander type and just mere upgrade? Draconins 12:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested Merges (special)

• MBF-P01 Gundam Astray Gold Frame, MBF-P02 Gundam Astray Red Frame, MBF-P03 Gundam Astray Blue Frame and MBF-M1 Astray into one page.

Reasons - They are pretty much the same thing, but the model recieved a bit more attention for the Gold frame is an event limited item in a Japanese model convention not dedicated to Gundam. Also for the new technology in modeling in hiding the cut between the useful pieces and the backbone of the injection moulding piece. It is not the first to have such treatment, but the second of the Bandai modeling series, after Hyakushiki. And since the other astray articles should tag along, I'd say merging them to a page for the Astray series is not a bad idea.

• ZGMF-X23S Saviour, ZGMF-X24S Chaos, ZGMF-X31S Abyss, etc. that starts with ZGMF-X??? that is not 1X are called Second series on the official Japanese page, they generally recieve the same treatment altogether, and should be merged to a page other than the mass-production ZAFT mecha. This includes ZGMF-X56S Impulse Gundam and ZGMF-X42S Destiny Gundam due to their not so important figure out of the series. At least until something special about them is released, I'd say this is good enough.
• ZGMF-X09A Justice and ZGMF-X19A Infinite Justice are not even satisfied as a main plot device to some certain extend. They might be a little more important to the series, but is definitely not having any special impact to the real world. The latter actually is less popular than a Zaku unit in the series(per the series models having it out so late that it is 11 months later than the last Zaku unit.) (for the 1/144, it is even 1 month later than the Dom units) For a unit appearing pretty much the same time as the Freedom, its attention is way lower and my view on this is that its popularity is not high enough for the modeling company to release it early. Therefore, I'd say merge it to Freedom, its partner and let them tag along to increase that article's notability instead of being evaluated to be deleted soon after this.

[edit] Other Merges

I would like to say the others should be deleted, but redirects to big lists would greatly reduce the chances of them being recreated by randomly dropped by fans. Since merging everything left into one page is definitely going to exceed 32kb, I propose 2 methods of merging:

1. Merge by fictional nations

• • Advantage: Easy links from the fictional nation page (though I kinda think they should be merged to one page, too) Easier explanation on which is the predecessor of which.
  • Disadvantage: too easy to get the articles into another mess of in-universe article, and is hard to organize the whole thing to let people without any knowledge to comprehand which one is from which story.

1. Merge by series

• • Advantage: Easier to let people know what appeared in which series (All the manga Astray series viewed as a whole) which from my point of view, it is better served as an out-of-universe view of things. (Most people walking by is not going to understand what is ZAFT and Orb and etc.)
  • Disadvantage: Units appearing in more than one series is going to make a big mess.

[edit] Last notes

I will not work on the above articles until I have finished a major part of the Universal Century mechas having similar pages like this one. I have provide sources and what I have listed in this page should be enough to improve the articles I have listed as keeps to a point where they meet wiki's policies. If nothing has improved for some while (like more AfD pops up), I will not back up those pages any more. Because it is obvious enough that nobody cared to improve those pages. However, I see that there are people who seems to be willing to do so in the above discussion and I am assuming good faith on this. MythSearcher^talk 07:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply I'm fully supportive of these proposed merges and shuffling. Kyaa the Catlord 07:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment I support merge No. 2 for out-of-universe reasons.--SidiLemine 10:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are we having consesus?

So.... if we are having consensus which either keep or merge, let's propose ini the Wikipedia:WikiProject Gundam. Or may be still a deletionist to argue? Draconins 12:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Merge or Keep: A lot of stuff is noteable and I would suggest that since a lot of debate is being brought out about all the mobile suits in one of the Gundam Universes then shouldn't this affect the mobile suits from the other Gundam Universes as well. Anyway after taking a look at some articles I can say that some ideas I have to towards trimming an article down is not to go into so much detail over Mobile suit capablities since that had resulted in mutiple paragraphs also the triva section should be trimmed down to remove any speculative, and unneccessary material. -Adv193 06:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• One other comment to post: It would help if for the Gundam articles not to go into extra detail on the Technology used in that Gundam such as Phase Shift Armor, N-Jammer Canceller, and DRAGOON System since there are already sperate articles for them and it wouldn't be ripping off the Gundam website MAHQ.net of their style of explaining this technology in their Mobile suit summary. An example I have is of the Gaia Gundam ZGMF-X88S (RGX-03) Gaia Gundam. -Adv193 06:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Article merges, trims, redirects, and maybe some individual AfDs seem to be our next step. Wikipedia:WikiProject Gundam would be a good place to organize this. I think we can all agree that things shouldn't stay, as they are now, for these articles. What to cut and what to keep is the question now. Personally, I think the whole thing could be cut, especially if it's been transwikied, but that's just me. -- Ned Scott 07:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• I've still yet to see an example of content in this category that should exist, although I imagine it would be possible to write different, out-of-universe article(s) on the topic. My first choice position would still be to delete these and start over; but I have no particular objection to a merge so long as it 1) drastically reduces the number of articles (sections can always be split into new articles later) and 2) Gets pushed towards WP:FICT's goal of articles about fiction in the real world, instead of an encylcopedia of fiction as if it were real. BCoates 08:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. - Mailer Diablo 14:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wheelchair Organizations

Wheelchair Organizations (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

An entire article isn't really necessary; possibly turn into a category. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 00:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, this is useful info that I can't find anywhere else on Wikipedia. If it is there then it needs to be more obvious. As such, I can't see a category being much use. Mallanox 00:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. While this article may be useful if you're looking for organizations, it's not encyclopedic. WP is not the yellow pages. There's no assertion of notability for this collection of organizations, nor is there one for the individual orgs. eaolson 01:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - if this were a list of articles for notable wheelchair organizations, I'd vote to keep it. But as it stands, it's a list of external links to (probably non-notable) wheelchair organization's webpages. Wikipedia is not a web directory. --Hyperbole 01:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I would normally vote _delete_. However, the person who started the page was a newbie and I don't like deleting his page this quickly, since he's obviously editing in good faith. What I'd propose is merging the very basics of this article in some sort of way into Wheelchair. Yuser31415^@? 01:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • You make a good argument for not biting him, but any given editor's newness to Wikipedia shouldn't affect the way we handle information here. We should politely thank him for trying to contribute, explain why this list violates Wikipedia policies, and encourage him to try writing an article that doesn't. --Hyperbole 01:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, this information is more useful to humanity, is factual, and is just as beneficial as a List of Current NBA Team Rosters or List of agricultural organizations? I fail to understand how this is one is different. Perhaps it should be moved to List of Wheelchair Organizations. However, there is a huge need for this, as I work for a non-profit that deals with wheelchairs. There is void of this useful information, which is made apparent by the fact that we are inundated with calls asking where someone can donate a wheelchair or get one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrn3 (talk • contribs).
  • Comment Wikipedia is not a collection of external links, and if we delete them, then we might as well just put the wikiarticles mentioned in the page in a new category. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 01:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Start a [[Category:Wheelchair organizations]], add relevant information to each of the articles that are Wikilinked to this one, add each of those articles to the new category, then delete the article in question. Doing it by category is far less awkward, and if it's done this way, we wouldn't be biting the originator of the nominated article: it still would be a positive contribution. B.Wind 01:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. This is not just a list. The first paragraph explains what these sorts of organizations are, what they do, how they work. It could be expanded to include the history of such organizations, how and why the initial organizing of such groups began, which existed in the past and were trailblazers, who was instrumental in it all, etc. I see a potentially interesting interaction with disability rights movement here. This is not just a list, it's a legitimate article, and it's still a stub. The scope that such an article can cover could not be covered by a category. — coelacan talk — 03:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but move to List of Wheelchair organizations, or something along those lines. Koweja 03:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment- I was bold and moved the page to List of wheelchair organizations. --- RockMFR 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• just plain Keep now.Koweja 13:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• strong Keep or, more precisely, keep and improve. Making this into a list is a first step--the next step would be to divide the list by country, because the problems a e very idfferent. And then we need a good article on this and related patient aid group, and we sahould really encourage this and even look for people ourslef=ves who can write them, because of the evident social need. WP is not a social welfare organization, but if there is something we can easily do , we should. DGG 06:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - This article is hurting nothing. In my opinion it is good, valuable information. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Impartial neutrality. I've tried, I've really tried, but I just can't develop an opinion on this debate. Black-Velvet 13:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Unbelievable that this was listed. Trollderella 16:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • You appear to have forgotten to provide an actual rationale for keeping. Uncle G 18:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • No good reason for deletion was given. The article is factual and potentially useful. Trollderella 19:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional Keep , the article should be cleaned up but kept.
• Now that this's been turned into a list, I propose Keep, cleaning it up by making wikiarticles for the for the external links and changing the ext links to there, as I did for Direct Relief International. Then we could probably make a category for this, and possibly subcats for the various types. Veinor (ヴエノル^(talk)) 17:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Okay, I think it has been established that we should keep it. Can we remove the article for deletion stuff at the top now? Also, Veinor, I like your idea of making articles for each of these organizations. There are external links for organizations that don't have articles yet. Whoever wants to create the articles for these sites, feel free, but please move the external links I have put on the list of wheelchair organizations page to the article pages on each organization. --Mrn3 18:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not a directory of organizations. Please review the WP:CORP criteria and only write articles if you can base them upon non-trivial sources independent of the subject organizations. Do not create articles by recycling the autobiographical blurb on an organization's own web site. Uncle G 18:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per reasons above.Sharkface217 20:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. If this were a mere list I might agree with the nominator to delete and categorize, but it isn't. RFerreira 02:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep However some of the organizations should be turned into red-names with a link.--T. Anthony 13:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per eaolson, with whose position I am in almost complete agreement. WMMartin 17:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete – Gurch 05:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A dark beginning

A dark beginning (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable Youtube movie. Prod was removed by the author, possible vanity Mallanox 00:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete per nom. --TheEmulatorGuy 01:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Has 117 views on Youtube. It's not even notable over there. --Hyperbole 01:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per everyone. --Natalie 02:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Per nom. Another youtube movie made by a group of high school kids. They used a new technique called "hand filming," which I assume is their way of saying they pioneered the art of holding their camera phone by hand. Wavy G 03:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete as an article about a person, group of people, band, club, company or website that does not assert the importance or significance of the subject. -- IslaySolomon | talk 03:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per (any Wiki policy). --- RockMFR 03:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete violates what Wikipedia is NOT.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 04:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per Islay. So tagged. MER-C 05:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete – Gurch 05:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanksmas

Thanksmas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Obvious hoax. WP:NFT. A few Google hits, but it appears to also be a slang term some people used on their blogs as a Thanksgiving/Christmas combination. No organized holiday. Deprodded by anon, without explanation. Grrr. eaolson 01:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - it's either a hoax or something celebrated by about four people, in which case it's nn. Doesn't meet the CSD, but should definitely be deleted. --Hyperbole 01:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Hyperbole. --KFP (talk | contribs) 01:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete! Let me count the ways: 1. Unverified. 2. Apparent original research. 3. Clearly nn. 4. Smells strongly of joke/hoax. --Ginkgo100 ^talk 01:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per all above, and once we get Yourewelcomemas we get to do it all over again.B.Wind 01:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Ginkgo100. Accurizer 03:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete as CSD G1 (patent nonsense) and G3 (joke article vandalism per WP:VANDAL). The db-nonsense tag was pulled despite the article containing such deathless chunks of prose as The renown Thanksmas symbol is the Magical Turducken that grants the wishes and gives gifts to everybody it encounters. "Magical turducken" in quotes is a Googlewhack (Actually, I think it's cheating to use quotes to get a Googlewhack, but you get the idea) Tubezone 03:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and watch out for Halloweaster and St. Presidentine's Day. Wavy G 04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete seems like patent nonsense to me.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 04:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Patent nonsense is for gibberish. Things that don't actually parse as coherent English. This is coherent, if a poor article. eaolson 05:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Further comment. This is a tangent but I admit that the policy on patent nonsense drove me up the wall until the new deletion procedures were introduced. An article that consisted entirely of "Tomatoes are devious items. They haunt my dreams" would get tagged as patent nonsense, and someone would rebut and say "it parses in English! it's not nonsense!" However, read the second part of the patent nonsense criteria - does this not fit under that rubric?--Dmz5 05:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • PN? I would think that referred to things that have valid syntax, but don't make sense. "My hovercraft is full of iridescent homogeneity," for example. eaolson 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Sure, and we could argue that point, but you know how some editors can be. I swear to you I tagged things like that and suggested speedy deletion and they were invariably untagged by some Nanny who would say that it didn't REALLY count as patent nonsense because only a9853qlkhjfas is patenet nonsense.--Dmz5 05:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Also, Delete--Dmz5 05:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above. So tagged. MER-C 05:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete what more discussion needs to happen? Horrible, horrible, horrible article. Xtsubarublazin 05:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 07:57Z

[edit] Leonard Hentiu

Leonard Hentiu (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Utterly irrelevant and vanity-induced. The most this person has directed is a late night tv show. Dahn 01:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - article makes no assertion of notability, and Google returns 24 unique results, which seem to consist mostly of Wikipedia mirrors and forum posts by this person. --Hyperbole 01:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. http://www.imdb.com/ lists him as second assistant director of Sosesc pasarile calatoare (1984). --TruthbringerToronto (Talk |contribs) 04:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Re TruthbringerToronto's comment, there seems to be a consensus that such things are not notable - a lot of vanity articles get created by people who once got nominated for the Walla Walla area community theater lighting design award, but there is a general agreement that while that is verifiable, it is not notable. Am I wrong on that one?--Dmz5 05:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, can I point out that there seem to be about 10,000 movies, TV shows, plays, and TV movies titled "Someone Like You"?--Dmz5 05:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah, but in his defense, there should be only one in Romanian. Goodness knows how that film is called - I've lived here all my life, and I have not heard of any film under the possible title versions (Cineva ca tine, Cineva asemeni ţie, Cineva precum tine, Cineva aşa cum eşti tu...). I don't know why he chose to "translate" these into English, just as I don't know why chose to misspell his own name (it shoul probably be "Henţiu"). Dahn 06:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails WP:BIO criteria, WP:COI. Terence Ong 05:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Not only fails WP:BIO but very little, if any, content of value in the article. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Another case of me just going with the flow, where no matter what the WP:BIO guidelines say, if the person was American the article would have stayed. Black-Velvet 13:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: there's just nothing to demonstrate any real notability here. Heimstern Läufer 15:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Not really "notable" per say... Sharkface217 20:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not notable. Simonkoldyk 21:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Inadequately referenced. WMMartin 17:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:01Z

[edit] Kirk Beattie

Kirk Beattie (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Fails WP:V -Nv8200p talk 02:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - has only one credited role to his name, in a 10-minute sci-fi film that apparently garnered little notice. [12] Whatever he did for Mission Impossible: 2, it didn't make the credits. This actor is not notable at this time. --Hyperbole 02:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails WP:BIO. Terence Ong 05:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete - If could find sources for the Mission Impossibe information, might be notable enough. However, that is unlikley so i am going for delete. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - and fails WP:V. The supposed role in MI:2 dioesn't show up on IMDB,a nd they have listings in the cast for "Biocyte Security Guard #2". -- Whpq 17:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Heimstern Läufer 03:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Delete he said he was an extra in his first movie MI2, and worked with cruise. I watched postcard bandit the other day and i saw him. I recognised him from many of the commercials put down. Don't ask for him to be deleted just cause you can't find his name in the MI2 credits.Kwadeclark (K Wade Clark) 3:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Delete per above- Chris Benoit Crippler Benoit
• Don't Delete if was an extra, let it be. Im from the UK, and he was like the spoks person for Co Co Pops new straws. kwadeclark
• Delete not notable for this time Simonkoldyk 22:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Non-notable. Please note that User:Kwadeclark has "voted" (yes, I know it isn't a vote) twice above, and the other 'don't deleter' is unsigned. It is presumably not a coincidence that both these users and the IP address 220.101.154.253 have only made contributions to this discussion page and Kirk Beattie and associated pages (including, astonishingly, a personal picture at Image:KIRK BEATTIE.jpg which is, according to the info on that page, "owned by Kirk Beattie"). Kirk: I don't begrudge you trying to further your career, and I'm sure you are a far more talented actor than I am, but this isn't the forum in which to achieve fame - it is the forum that discusses those who are already famous. I send you my best wishes for your future. DrKiernan 11:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. NN. WMMartin 17:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:02Z

[edit] Cambridge University Student Alliances

Cambridge University Student Alliances (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Nomination for deletion I somehow overlooked this in my recent sweep of ucam societies. Wikipedia is not campus info booth. This is a recently formed anti-global poverty student group that makes no claim of encyclopedic notability. The society website seems to be largely inactive. ~55 google hits. Zero Factiva news database hits. I would have speedied/prodded except they list some prominent advisors and have sort of connection with a UN campaign (rather tenuous link and no obvious evidence for encyclopedic notability) - how much these people are actually involved, its unclear. There doesnt seem to be much at all in the society's calendar Bwithh 02:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as unverifiable. - Che Nuevara 04:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. TheRingess 05:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:V, cruft. Terence Ong 05:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This is simply a statement of policy and goals rather than an objective encyclopaedia article. Without any indication of notability, this is just another student society. -- IslaySolomon | talk 06:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - what can i say, other than Delete? - Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Simonkoldyk 22:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Hurts my eyes just reading it. NN. WMMartin 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:04Z

[edit] Estonian Orthodox Church Pilgrimage

Estonian Orthodox Church Pilgrimage (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Blog or something like it. A few obscure entries from Gogle but nothing notable. -Nv8200p talk 02:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - makes no assertion of notability. The fact that fifty people did something together one weekend is simply not notable by itself, and the article makes no attempt to take it any further. --Hyperbole 02:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable. It's not some big scale event, just a small gathering of people. Terence Ong 05:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - kind of strange, just the recap of an event it seems. I dont think it belongs to, or adds value to wikipedia so I am going for delete. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: as far as I know it is consistent with the Eastern Orthodox traditions, but the style of the article is more suitable for a newspaper article than for an encyclopedia, if it was not a religious theme I would say: get rid of it, but as it is I'd have to say clean it up which is kind of difficult. Alf photoman 23:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment: this article is a good example of a religious event. Why is it any less significant or notable than anything else? Bebuddley1 14:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. NN. Wikipedia is not a diary, however worthy the event being chronicled. I am encouraged to visit Estonia though - the food sounds great, especially the "lihapirukas". But we're an encyclopedia, not a tourist brochure. WMMartin 17:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Relevant information may find its way to the articles of their church and general religious tradition or suchlike, whatever they are. Maed 08:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:15Z

[edit] Jesusry

Jesusry (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Contested proposed deletion. Original prod reason: NN neologism. 17 Google hits for "Jesusry". – Gurch 02:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per noms ghits. Neologism dict def. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. -- IslaySolomon | talk 03:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per IslaySolomon. Also unverifiable. Accurizer 03:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NEO. --- RockMFR 03:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete- per WP:NEO, if anything transwiki. -- Chris is me 04:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete violates WP:NOT and WP:NEO.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 04:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. TheRingess 05:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• transwikify a good and useful new term, suitable for wiktionary —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DGG (talk • contribs). 06:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • No it isn't. Wiktionary does not accept protologisms, which this is. Uncle G 12:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per IslaySolomon.--Dakota 06:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - looks like an entry straight out of dictionary.com or something and we know that is WP:NOT. - Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 12:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, fails the everything test. RFerreira 02:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• I say move to wiktion... - oh crap, nevermind, they won't take it. Delete. :P Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• WP:DAFT? --Masamage 09:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Simonkoldyk 22:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• (To the tune of "Onward Christian Soldiers") Delete per comments above, delete delee-eete, etc... WMMartin 17:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:16Z

[edit] Portuguese breakfast

Portuguese breakfast (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Dictionary definition, dubious verifiability (we don't need articles about things from Urbandictionary, which has a worse credibility record than Wikipedia itself), nowhere near academic.Djcartwright 03:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. I now officially know too much. riana_dzasta 04:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. NN spooge. --Aaron 04:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Wikipedia is neither a dictionary, for stuff made up one day nor an indiscriminate collection of information. MER-C 05:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails WP:V. There are no reliable sources on what a Portugese breakfast is, and the unreliable ones scattered across the Internet differ vastly on its contents (raw or cooked eggs? anal or vaginal cavity? ham or canadian bacon? latina or woman of any ethnicity?) --Hyperbole 05:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:V. WP:OR, dicdef, WP:NFT, this is trash. Terence Ong 05:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Terence Ong. --Dhartung | Talk 07:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Dictionary def from dubious dictionary, not verified, blah blah. QuiteUnusual 10:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete boredteencruft. Danny Lilithborne 11:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, no. I did get a mild chuckle, but that is a bit far out there. I think it is was too obscure for an article, as opposed to a more populary references Cleveland Steamer or such. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, I was looking for a continental breakfast and all I got was WP:V WP:OR and nausea...Mallanox 21:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom for failing WP:V amongst other policies. We host a few unsual articles on sexual practices, and this isn't going to be one of them. RFerreira 02:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• OK, this is officially too weird to even be allowed. If this is even real, I'll be amazed. I can't see how it possibly merits an encyclopedia article. Heimstern Läufer 03:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Kill it, now, ASAP - why does it seems that every piece of gross sexual slang from urbandictionary.com has to end up on Wikipedia? Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Read the talk page and find out. riana_dzasta 08:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh my gosh. That talk page needs to go to BJAODN. It's beautiful. --Masamage 09:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Indeed. 'Nessicary reference'? Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. riana_dzasta 11:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Riana - thanks for the laugh, BTW - and BJAODN the talk: however, the actually article should be stuck away in some cavernous hole where no one will ever see it again - that's the deletion bin, before you ask. Moreschi 15:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, please. o_O I've gone ahead with BJAODNing the talk page. --Masamage 21:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unless George W. Bush gives a public demonstration with the assistance of Nancy Pelosi. Then it'll be notable. WMMartin 17:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Congratulations! I didn't think this discussion could degrade any further! :) riana_dzasta 01:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Don't jinx it! ;P --Masamage 01:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Ok, I'm an idiot, found some sources. Tawker 04:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goatse.cx

Goatse.cx (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Concerns w/ WP:RS and WP:V, I don't see how we are going to source this one with independent sources. Tawker 03:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The previous AfD discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Goatse.cx Accurizer 03:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Note that this article was kept just a few weeks ago (with about 50 keep votes and 2 delete votes). --- RockMFR 03:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per my nom. Really, we need to start looking at CZ's model on maintainability, there's no way we can maintain this. -- Tawker 03:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Question Not sure what that means, can you point me where to read? Thanks! Accurizer 03:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep - the most notable shock site, one of the most notable Internet memes, etc. Seems this was probably spurred by the recent GNAA deletion. However, I believe the chance of finding reliable sources on this one is extremely high. --- RockMFR 03:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  so find one - if we can't, time to nuke it -- Tawker 04:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep - there are 1,510,000 hits for "goatse" on Google. This is a clear indicator there are reliable sources achievable. It's extremely unlikely that there are no reliable sources throughout 1.5 million pages. --TheEmulatorGuy 04:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per RockMFR. This is one of the biggest Internet memes ever. It's not tasteful, but it's notable. --Aaron 04:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy keep as per WP:SK. This was kept- with a very strong consensus- at AfD just one month ago. -- Kicking222 04:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Appears to be a neologism. El_C 03:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roadway blogging

Roadway blogging (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This article is clearly useless. It is a page probably written by the creator of the "roadway blogging" idea and was added here to further his agenda. This "roadway blog" theory is only apparently used by one blog and is therefor obscure. Wikipedia is not a place where anyone can stick up whatever they feel is worth knowing about.--Amanduhh 03:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The original AfD discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Freeway blogging. Accurizer 03:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. The article is definitely just advertising for the concept. --Aaron 04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, possibly include a sentence in the parent blog article, but non-notable as an independent concept. riana_dzasta 04:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Why don't we invent our own blogging idea - Delete blogging where we blog about deleting non-notable neologisms like this and other junk? This one has a grand total of 5 non-wiki ghits. MER-C 05:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable neologism, junk, junk, junk. Wikipedia is not your encyclopedia where you can write anything nonsensical. Terence Ong 05:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per above neogolism/etc, perhaps a slight mention in Blog but definitely does not deserve a separate article, no thanks --timecop 08:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a neologisim, and the refrences do not appear to be very relaible. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, as I found many referances to it on Google. Sharkface217 20:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Google references do not mean it is an automatic keep. Zezima has millions of Google references, yet it doesn't warrant its own article. --Fred McGarry 11:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - another worthless blog-related neologisim. blog-related. - Femmina 07:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as neologism that fails WP:V. Fairsing 23:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - This is an article about an activity, not a person. Sean Bonner 07:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - This entry is crucial in preserving the cultural importance of major blogs. (67.67.88.27 01:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)).

Comment -- this account appears to be a voting sock-puppet. Jmax- 02:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Somebody keeps removing the AfD notice in the article. I'm in a revert war with this trouble-maker and they have just been reported. --Oakshade 01:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - I believe Wikipedia in this case created the term. I was hard pressed to find the term "roadway blogging" on other sites not having mirrored Wikipedia. -- Northgrove 02:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. WP:NEO and WP:NOR. Grouse 02:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - A notable form of public expression. I think "blogging" is actually the wrong term, but oh well. About the few ghits cited above, "Freeway Blogging" (the name that was merged into this article) comes up with over 17,000 non-wiki ghits. I know the fervor of users that have an extreme bias against blogs in general. Flame away! --Oakshade 02:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Per above. digital_me 02:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Completely and utterly non-notable. --lesalle 03:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete There are no citations and it therefore is inappropriate for wikipedia. Butholer 04:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  — Possible single purpose account: Butholer (talk • contribs) has made or no other contributions outside this topic or their own user page .

• Delete and enough reasons have already been stated. This page is pure nonsense. I also do not appreciate that the front page of Digg implies that anyone who votes delete on this article is a troll. - Abscissa 05:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete term does not Google, it's obviously a protologism. Guy (Help!) 09:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - no reliable sources. --JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) 12:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Inadequately referenced. WMMartin 17:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Jeff 18:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP --LifeStar 19:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a neologism. I don't think the google test is entirely helpful for blog related articles because blogs will inevitably fill the results due to heavy cross-linking. ISI Web of Knowledge, LexisNexis, and EBSCOhost all return exactly zero results on this phrase, variant phrases, and variants of "freeway blogging". For comparison's sake, each database turns up multiple non-trivial references about Moblogs. shotwell 21:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non notable Modesty84 00:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Delete: use the category. Proponents of keeping say that the list can have structure that the category cannot; however in this case the category has structure (American adoptees, Welsh adoptees, etc) and the list has not. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:23Z

[edit] List of adoptees

List of adoptees (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Tagged for speedy deletion but doesn't meet criteria. Relevant discussion on talk. No opinion from me. – Gurch 03:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• This seems marginally of interest to me. Weak keep. - Che Nuevara 04:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - There's already a category for American adoptees (and, presumptively, adoptees of various nationalities), and putting it in list form like this, with no context, seems highly indiscriminate. --Hyperbole 05:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as lists may be sourced and categories cannot. CFD routinely kicks things over to lists and then AFD deletes them, I don't think that's the way things should work. --Dhartung | Talk 07:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Categorization most definitely can be sourced, and in an appropriate place — the article being categorized. Moreover, there is no relevant CFD discussion here (Category:Adoptees having never been mentioned at CFD), and you have not explained how the inclusion criteria for this list (which are, per the article, simply that the person was adopted) are narrow enough in scope to be useful. There are quite a lot of adopted people in the world. In contrast to the list's single inclusion criterion, the category implicitly employs the additional criteria of WP:BIO. Uncle G 12:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• This was covered by the speedy deletion criteria, by the way. The criterion is G7. The article's deletion was requested by its author, who has explained (on the talk page) that its creation was a mistake (given xyr subsequent discovery of the categories), and the article has no edits (other than the applications of various tags) by other editors. Uncle G 12:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Rename - list of notable adoptees. Where, notable means that they meet WP:BIO. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The advantage of lists over categories is that they can contain redlinked entries, but why do we want to list people who aren't notable enough to have an article? If they're notable we can categorize them, if not then we don't want to. RJFJR 15:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I see no good reason to delete this, lists have value over categories in some cases. Trollderella 16:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • You've not stated what that actually is, in this case, and the actual author of the list states otherwise. Uncle G 16:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Rename I second Chris above 61.19.54.164 17:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Rename The idea has potential, but as of right now it seems just like a list with no real context. If this article is kept, it will need major revamping. I also agree with renaming it to notable adoptees, if for nothing else but clarity that not every adoptee in the world is on the list. -Ryanbomber 17:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I agree with Uncle G and RJFJR that a category and not a list is indicated in this case. -- Alan McBeth 17:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, all names should be cited with sources, which is one advantage over categorization, another is the possibility of including notable people who don't have full fledged articles about them yet (the dreaded redlinks....). Carlossuarez46 22:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This article will never be more than a list. Lists are okay, but only a list is not. No encyclopedic content. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you explain this? When is a list more than a list? - Che Nuevara 06:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, to be more than just a list it would need ecyclopedic content, and to arrange the information in a way a catagory cannot. Here are some encyclopedic lists: FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, List of tallest buildings and structures in the Paris region, List of countries by Human Development Index, and Australian Olympic medalists in Swimming.
    • These articles provide structure to the list that a catagory cannot, and the unifying theme is broad enough to have encyclopedic headers to each of the sections. I don't see why this cannot be a catagory. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Then why not make this a category? If the page doesn't work, a category could. Assuming we don't already have one, anyway. -Ryanbomber 15:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree, this would be a fine catagory, not sure if it exists already though. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Hyperbole. It's already a category, apparently, so this article is just a list, and we're not a bunch of lists. WMMartin 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Keep —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:26Z

[edit] MacEdition

MacEdition (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Previously speedy deleted as spam. Recreated by same author with fewer external links. Tagged for speedy deletion again; author contests this on the talk page. I'm not sure whether the site is notable, though the author asserts this is the case. I've decided it's probably best to decide the matter here. No opinion from me. – Gurch 03:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. The author may assert notability, but I don't see where the article does. --Aaron 03:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

If sites such as Gawker, Weblogs Inc, Metafilter, ThinkSecret and Slashdot are to be excluded from deletion, then so should MacEdition. Would marking the article a stub prevent the speedy deletion? There are ex-members of the MacEdition staff and of the Mac community who are likely going to be adding value to this article in the near future. -- Tomierna 04:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Aaron - for the main reason why MacEdition is notable enough to have its' own article (which will be expanded), please read the History section of Apple rumors community. -- Tomierna 04:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. The article DOES assert notability now, and as a Mac folklorist myself, I agree. This is certainly appropriate as a stub. Perel 04:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as a notable part of the (admittedly strange) history of Mac journalism. Also, neither this article nor Spork Boards were valid speedy candidates in my view, so I'm not sure why they've been re-speedied so many times. A proper AfD discussion was clearly in order as soon as the speedy deletions were contested. -- Rbellin|Talk 05:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, meets WP:WEB, what's wrong with it being a stub. Just needs an expansion plus a cleanup. Terence Ong 06:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, was important in its day and is part of the development of the mac.DGG 06:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Does not appear to be too spammy! - Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Which criterion of WP:WEB is supposed to meet? Recury 14:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as above. Trollderella 16:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as per above. Sharkface217 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as per the above. RFerreira 02:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as failing WP:WEB and of course WP:V. I'm sure it seems notable to its readers, but to society as a whole it just isn't. Recury 15:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article needs a complete rewrite, but it's notable enough. --Dtcdthingy 17:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:WEB and WP:V. Simonkoldyk 22:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. What part of this article is unverifiable? -- Rbellin|Talk 23:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:29Z

[edit] Brian M. Palmer (second nomination)

Brian M. Palmer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (second nomination)

I came across this one by dumb luck. This article was given a very generous second chance eleven months ago by Deathphoenix, who closed it as no consensus (despite a 3-0 delete !vote) with the note "The result of the debate was No consensus, so keep (and cleanup). I am giving this article a chance to be cleaned up, but I have no objections to this article being AfDed at a later date if it doesn't get a better assertion of notability." [13] Except for the addition of a single line and a spelling correction, it hasn't been touched since the first AfD was closed, so its time has come. NN, tagged as failing to assert notability since June and as needing cleanup since January without action. Aaron 03:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I think Phaedriel's argument in the first AfD still applies here - hasn't really received enough notability within his own sphere. That, and a lack of verifiable external sources - a personal website is not the best reference. riana_dzasta 04:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Almost db-bio material... --- RockMFR 04:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. ^demon^{[omg plz]} 05:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. MER-C 05:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Google suggests that he is a notable journalist, having interviewed a variety of notable figures, and being a notable contributor to a notable skateboarding magazine. In my opinion, he barely clears the notability bar. Obviously, the article needs sources. --Hyperbole 06:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, not many unique Google results, no WP:RS, fails WP:BIO. Connection to notable persons is not notability. --Dhartung | Talk 07:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Non-notable. Interviewing notable people does not, in itself, confer notability. Emeraude 12:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per above commentaroy and nom. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - please take a second look at this, not having heard of someone is not a good reason to delete. He is a journalist, and verifiably has work in published magazines. Trollderella 16:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Having published work does not by itself make a person notable. Being published merely means a person has succeeded in having a job. Authors and writers are not inherently notable. --- RockMFR 19:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I can't find anything that suggests he meets WP:BIO as an author or photographer.--Isotope23 16:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, as I have read some of his material before and consider him to be a semi-notable journalist. Sharkface217 20:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Fledgeling 22:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: at the very least, more sources and a real assertion of notability are needed. Heimstern Läufer 03:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The result of the last AfD discussion was keep with the note "I am giving this article a chance to be cleaned up, but I have no objections to this article being AfDed at a later date if it doesn't get a better assertion of notability." It has clearly failed that. There has been the addition of one sentence to the article since the last AfD was closed. No cleanup, no real assertion of notability. --Lijnema 12:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Had time, didn't clean up. Simonkoldyk 22:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Even the 'keepers' above admit to "semi-notable" and "barely notable". In other words, non-notable. DrKiernan 11:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Inadequately referenced, and ( in my view ) fails to cross the notability barrier. WMMartin 17:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy deleted by Morven. Whispering 15:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lakeside livingroom studio

Lakeside livingroom studio (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Fails WP:CORP, WP:ORG and WP:V -Nv8200p talk 04:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete The article itself states that the studio is "minor", and nobody notable has ever recorded there. -- Kicking222 04:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - a studio for local bands inside someone's living room is not notable. --Hyperbole 06:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails WP:CORP, WP:V, no way its notable. Terence Ong 06:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - Article makes no assertion of notability in my opinion. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:31Z

[edit] Unfadeable E.R.G.

Unfadeable E.R.G. (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Article created by subject, does not establish notability. "He is considered by many to be a driving force in bringing real music back, in using real instruments in his creations." silsor 04:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfadeable (Rapper) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Clone article created after AFD listing. silsor 07:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• According to whom? Patently unverifiable, OR, POV. Delete. - Che Nuevara 04:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Im an up and coming artist look me up. "Considered by many" no all. Do you guys not have a life besides judging everybody that trys to get ahead, read all the way to the bottom. Unfadeable E.R.G. 04:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia is not myspace, it's not a place to promote your act or try out liner notes. When you start moving albums and you have a review in the Village Voice and Google hits that aren't just myspace pages, this article can get recreated.--Dmz5 05:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nn bio on nn artist ^demon^{[omg plz]} 05:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. My I suggest bundling the identical page Unfadeable (Rapper) into this as well? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as an autobiography and failing of Wikipedia is not myspace. The userpage is now on my watching list for eventual deletion. MER-C 05:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this and Unfadeable (Rapper). Only one self-published album, and obvious, probably unsurmountable, conflict of interest issues. --Hyperbole 06:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails WP:MUSIC, WP:COI, WP:BIO. Please, stop thinking Wikipedia is myspace. Terence Ong 06:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Back to the lecture at hand... Delete both. Danny Lilithborne 11:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Simonkoldyk 22:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedily deleted by Woohookitty. MER-C 10:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Klueless

Klueless (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

I speedy deleted this as an article about non-notable web content. The author has complained about this and insists I bring it here. – Gurch 04:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• If it's an actual recreation of the content you deleted, and it was tagged for speedy the first time by someone other than you, than it's a candidate for speedy delete and salt. - Che Nuevara 04:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  It's an actual recreation, yes, because I restored the page. But I don't think my restoring the page affects anything – Gurch 05:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete - it still doesn't assert notability. So tagged. MER-C 05:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete, and add some salt. Terence Ong 06:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  In case you didn't read my above comment, the user didn't recreate the page. I did, when he requested it. As far as I can see there would be no reason to protect the page once deleted – Gurch 06:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• OK you win. Please delete. But what is "add some salt" ? -- WikiCheng(Author)|Talk 07:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"Salt": Wikislang for preventing recreation. From the expression to salt the earth, which I think is from The Simpsons ;-) Tubezone 10:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Keep. Agent 86 00:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lisa Gleave

Lisa Gleave (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Model on a few shows an in a magazine, but never with a plot-involved role. Not notable, as far as I can tell. Mikeblas 04:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep: Based on the fact that she has been on some of the most famous TV shows and that she is featured on some websites. - Vicer 05:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - A Barker Beauty. --Oakshade 06:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Why not merge into Barker's Beauties? —Centrx→talk • 16:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep of course, she's a model on a few shows and in a magazine. Trollderella 16:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the above points. Sharkface217 20:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Unsuitable to merge into Barker's Beauties because of other work involved, and even if it were to be trimmed down it wouldn't really make sense to go there. (IMHO) RFerreira 02:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. The other work isn't notable. Non-speaking roles are really no better than extras in movies, and they're certainly not notable even if on screen. -- Mikeblas 17:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep per above comments. Simonkoldyk 22:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• keep please not major notability but enough we are not a paper encyclopedia we have room for this Yuckfoo 22:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep per Yuckfoo, though I despair of a civilisation where the encyclopedias include this sort of thing. WMMartin 17:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was merge to MacEdition —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:37Z

[edit] Spork Boards

Spork Boards (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Multiple speedy attempts. Does not meet WP:CSD, so I'm starting an AFD as the proper place for this discussion. Perel 04:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep for now. Possibly merge with MacEdition if it's still a stub a month from now. Perel 04:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as notable in Mac history and rumor-scene culture. But I'd also support a merge and redirect to MacEdition (in fact I previously suggested that on the Talk page) if the consensus ends up pointing that way. -- Rbellin|Talk 05:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to MacEdition. Terence Ong 06:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as above. Trollderella 16:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to MacEdition. There is no way this meet WP:WEB on it's own.--Isotope23 16:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Isotope23. Doesn't have enough references to even pass WP:RS or the policy relating to websites, but since it does have a reference it can be merged in to MacEdition. I'm surprised this article didn't link to Mac_the_Knife. --Quirex 00:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as non-notable. Recury 15:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete (just needed a second opinion) – Gurch 04:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FragArcade

FragArcade (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable website. – Gurch 04:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete No indication this meets WP:WEB. Quite a few ghits [14] but almost exclusively from stats sites. The talk page indicates that the authors did not understand the notability criteria and points to WP:COI. -- IslaySolomon | talk 04:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete - no assertion of notability. So tagged. MER-C 04:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedily deleted by Gurch. MER-C 06:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] JEMS

JEMS (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

No assertion of notability. Unreferenced and buzzword laden. Contested prod. MER-C 04:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Does not assert notability. Canadian-Bacon 04:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete as copyvio. So tagged. --Hyperbole 06:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete for the reasons given below and in the deletion log summary. Uncle G 12:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nour Malas

Nour Malas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Extreme verifiability problems, with a grand total of 11 ghits. Unreferenced possible hoax. Contested prod. MER-C 04:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per nom. Canadian-Bacon 04:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Well, that's my vote for wikipedia. I for one think that the article would be a great addition to the Uncyclopedia, and I have written on the creator's talk page to say as much. Esn 04:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete it is obviously a hoax ("raising an army to turn all the trees in the world pink?"). The level of the humor is not up to uncyclopedia, which is saying something. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dmz5 (talk • contribs).
• Comment Hoaxes don't fall in to the acceptable criteria for speedy deletes, so the above vote will have to be reduced to delete. (aeropagitica) 05:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, not for Wikipedia please. Terence Ong 06:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete. As the info in the article is unreferenced and derogatory and there are living (but unnotable) persons with this name, it should be speedied as G10, attack page, if not, speedied as G3, joke article vandalism per WP:VANDAL. Tubezone 06:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete as above. "...awarded by the Guinness Book of Arab Records the title of being the only human being in the annals of history to have a perfectly symmetrical body". Whatever. -- IslaySolomon | talk 06:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Gotta speed, keed! Danny Lilithborne 11:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Tyrese Gibson in lieu of deletion —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:40Z

[edit] HQ Pictures

HQ Pictures (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Fails WP:CORP. Companies aren't notable only because of their owners. Contested prod. MER-C 04:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - it does fail CORP. Their owners have articles, but the company hasn't done anything to make it notable -- Tawker 04:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete- Wikipedia is not a concordance. --67.85.183.103 05:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - as per above. I can't see it being more than a section of the owner's article. Kathy A. 16:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Tyrese Gibson as per above. James084 13:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:CORP. Simonkoldyk 22:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:42Z

[edit] The Tortoise and the Hare (film)

The Tortoise and the Hare (film) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

No sources to support anything, all of the information seems to be bogus (the IMDB pages for all of the people mentioned say nothing about this project). I think that this was originally supposed to be about the Aardman project called Tortoise vs. Hare (IMDB link). That film was first cancelled to make way for Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit back in 2001, and then postponed again until Aardman's 3-film contract with Dreamworks was complete. Now that the Aardman-Dreamworks contract has been called off, the film that was supposed to be made before this one (Crood Awakening) seems to have been cancelled as well. In short, there is currently nothing to suggest that the film is being made, and the article doesn't seem to contain a single accurate thing anyway, and hasn't since its creation. This seems like a case of crystal ballism. I would normally support salvaging any article which has usefull information, but this one has no accurate information in it in any case; it shouldn't be very hard for someone to recreate it if the film actually does enter production, and nothing will be lost if it is deleted. Esn 04:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I'm not sure if this is a canceled project or a WP:HOAX, but there's simply no indication anywhere that Tim Burton is involved in a project like this. Fails WP:V. --Hyperbole 06:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:HOAX, WP:V, WP:NOT a crystal ball. False information, project is merely called off, nothing ele. Terence Ong 06:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - no sources, and no findable sources. -- Whpq 17:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as WP:HOAX. FWIW, someone is claiming credit for such a hoax here. -- Shunpiker 22:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Next. RFerreira 02:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - this is a false and useless article. -- Gadgetfusion 16:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. See also List of FM stations in Kalamazoo, List of AM stations in Kalamazoo. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-12-06 08:45Z

[edit] List of TV stations in Kalamazoo

List of TV stations in Kalamazoo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This article violates standards set forth in "What Wikipedia is not"; also, this list is redundant, as it already covers information set forth in the Grand Rapids TV template. azumanga 04:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete because of the duplication of the template, which seems to do the job better. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The category Cat:Television stations in Grand Rapids-Battle Creek-Kalamazoo and the template do the job well enough. Grutness...wha? 05:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 05:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, category already exists, no need for this list, redundant. Terence Ong 06:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete redundant to category.-- danntm ^T _C 20:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as redundant. Shin'ou's TTV (Futaba|Masago|Kotobuki) 00:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. WMMartin 17:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete the one with utterly no content. W.marsh 02:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of number-one hits (U.S. Hot Latin Tracks)

List of number-one hits (U.S. Hot Latin Tracks) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Number-one hits of 2006 (U.S. Hot Latin Tracks) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This is just a placeholder, not an encyclopedia article. I have nothing against an actual list of this name, but it's simply ludicrous that a page that contains nothing but a category tag should be kept around. Salad Days 13:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 15:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete, A3. shotwell 16:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Admittedly there is only a link to the single list for 2006 on this page (more than just the category tag), but there are other similar pages for other Billboard magazine charts. See List of number-one hits (United States) and List of number-one dance hits (United States) for example. This page could be expanded and should at least get a full deletion debate rather than being speedied. --Metropolitan90 03:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is the full debate, and I see no entries on the "list." OH ITS A "LIST" OF "LISTS" EVEN BETTER Salad Days 04:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as db-empty no context. Whispering 01:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, trialsanderrors 05:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I'm relisting and adding Number-one hits of 2006 (U.S. Hot Latin Tracks) to this AfD, as it is the only reason for this article to exist. Note also the copyright provision of Billboard, which is pertinent here: [15]. ~ trialsanderrors 05:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Number-one hits of 2006 (U.S. Hot Latin Tracks) - Hot Latin Tracks is a Billboard chart, and there's no reason not to have lists of #1 hits for Billboard charts. Weak Keep of List of number-one hits (U.S. Hot Latin Tracks) - it's obviously an unfinished page, but it does give an idea of how articles are intended to be organized. --Hyperbole 06:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • "no reason not to have lists of #1 hits for Billboard charts" ← Copyvio is. See precedent. ~ trialsanderrors 09:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no content, just list of years. Terence Ong 07:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete - This has been around long enough, put it out of its misery. If someone wants to revive it and actually add content, great. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 16:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete. Referencing appears to have improved greatly since article was nominated for deletion. W.marsh 17:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iron Ring Clock

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Iron Ring Clock (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

nn clock, vanity article written by clock's engineer, zero non-wikipedia/mirror Google hits. Deprodded by anon, so you can take your five days here instead. Delete. Fethers 05:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all you didn't even nominate the article correctly. And second, you still have not contacted the original owner for your intended deletion. Keep 203.218.207.20 05:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Full disclosure: I fixed the double-indent. Mr. Anonymous Reverter, since you're here clearly I nominated the article correctly, and I have no need to contact "the original owner" of the article. I'd suggest you take a look at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion and WP:OWN. Fethers 05:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I can tell you I am not the owner of the article just a random user like yourself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.218.207.20 (talk • contribs).

• Weak keep - I am torn on this one, the lack of google hits is a problem but there is a source in the article that states it is well-known on campus, and god knows we keep plenty of articles on random things that are only notable to a narrow population.--Dmz5 05:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Merge to McMaster University and Delete lack of ghits, fails WP:N, "well-known on campus" is not a valid reason for an article to be included in a world wide encyclopedia. Copysan 06:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know if I agree or not with that statement, but the fact is a lot of editors believe that to be a valid reason for inclusion and there is no set policy per se that defines the notability of any given object. Something like this falls right into the cracks of what is and isnt notable.--Dmz5 06:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • "A topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the subject itself." from WP:N. You may say that this is a guideline, not a policy, so it does not neccessarily apply. But remember that if there are no "non-trivial published works" about the subject, then it cannot fulfill WP:V (that is policy) and therefore should be deleted. Copysan 09:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep notable artwork. Have we looked for off campus comments? DGG 06:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I did a Google News search and a straight Google search, like I said up above. I didn't get anything that wasn't this article or a mirror of the content. I mean, if I found SOME sort of external anything about the clock, I'd mention it. As it is, it just looks like it's...well, a clock. Fethers 07:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete universities have student newspapers, which often publish articles about things which are "well-known on campus", but all there is is this trivial reference. The award site mentioned doesn't mention them anywhere. No way that we can verify the facts presented, therefore it is not suitable for Wikipedia. Demiurge 10:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I'm the original author, so which other way would I vote? I 'am' one of the team who built the clock, but I don't believe that I wrote the article in a self-promoting way. Edit history isn't brimming with contributions, but I would suggest that there are about 500,000 articles on wikipedia which are more poorly sourced (eg), about items of less significance (eg), and less discussed (eg). Re the awards site, CSME seem to have taken down their info from the 2003 competition...I will scan in my award certificate if you want proof of our placing. I would suggest that as extensive as Google is, not everyting that's worth including on Wikipedia is included there. Wikipedia's strength is it's breadth of coverage. No other encyclopedia would have an entry on the Iron Ring Clock, but then that could be said about the majority of Wikipedia articles. If the existance of this article is causing you genuine pain somehow, then I apologize and say vote delete...if you find it's about an interesting piece of student art, well known on the campus of a major Canadian university, and representing an important piece of Canadian engineering tradition, then please vote keep. Burtonpe 14:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Nicely written and illustrated article, but appears to be written by one of the subjects, and the "iron ring" incorrectly is claimed to be the "worlds largest" when there are larger ones on every large turbine or old locomotive wheel, and when it it actually made of stainless steel. These quibbles aside, a couple of mentions in the campus paper are not enough evidence of notability. Most Google entries are mirrors of the Wikipedia article. Edison 15:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Edison, please check the article's talk page for a longer response to your comment there re the use of the term iron ring; I would have responded here but I saw your post to the talk page first. The term 'iron ring' as used in the article does not refer to just a ring made of iron, which is (I believe) a justified use. Please see the article on iron ring for more. If you have a citation for a larger iron ring, then please put it forward. I have already mentioned my opinion on google hits in my response above. Burtonpe 15:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, one small addition to the above - I am not one of the subjects of the page, the page is on the clock. My name is mentioned once, at the bottom, as one of the creators. Burtonpe 16:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I am an engineering student at McMaster University and The Iron Ring Clock has become part of our legacy. My friends who come to visit from other universities were impressed when they saw it. I use this wikipedia site as a means of promoting my school and yes, the biggest iron ring I have ever seen or heard of. I have even had a professor use the clock as an example in a lesson on gear trains. Change79 16:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC) — Change79 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep As a co-creator of this piece of student art I (obviously) agree with the thought that Wikipedia is a perfect froum for an article. The posting was not intended to be self promoting (as noted above) but merely an informative article on the history of this piece. If it was intended to be self-serving the original author would have likely included his name more than once (at the bottom, as one of the creators). The project has been cited in the City of Hamilton's news paper two, if not three times (copies of these articles can be posted if proof be needed) as well as student and University news. As for the debate regarding the largest iron ring - we've been through this. Read it again (Iron Ring Clock) in the context of the fact that the ring is largest representation of the Iron Ring worn by Canadian Engineers. I would love to see a larger one, but frankly with what we had to go through to have this one made I doubt it's likely one exists. The Iron Ring Clock is a one of a kind piece of art. It is unique to McMaster University and, frankly, deserves to have this one, short article available in the public domain.dunkshows —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dunkshows (talk • contribs) 2006-11-30 17:11:35 (UTC) — dunkshows (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • We don't want copies. We want the originals. Please cite them. Uncle G 17:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Atlant 17:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The AfD process is not a vote or popularity contest. Is there a reason you think this article should be kept? That its notability is established? Edison 17:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Edison 17:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The work as a whole isn't notable by Wikipedia's standards, and few of the particulars are verifiable by Wikipedia's standards. -- Alan McBeth 17:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - it appears to be of local notability. References are provided. At the very least, merge into McMaster University. -- Whpq 17:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• keep Having previously been heavily involved with the McMaster Engineering Society I can testify to the clock's importance in introducing new engineering students to the McMaster culture and showing them what they can accomplish. The clock is seen by thousands of people everyday and is often remarked upon, by students and faculty both, as being an interesting and unusual piece that promotes McMaster. This project has affected thousands of people and deserves to have an article. Garnishthemonkey 18:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC) — Garnishthemonkey (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Merge and redirect to McMaster University. Local notability, but no real evidence of broader notability among engineers, clockfans, or the general public. I would change to "keep" if some reliable sources showed non-trivial third-party coverage. Barno 18:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment added in citation, a link to a summary of this article [16] in The Hamilton Spectator, a paper with a circulation of 260,000 copies. In my opinion this greatly enhances notability.Burtonpe 19:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It may but remember WP:N says "multiple, non-trivial published works" (emphasis mine). Copysan 04:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep- a bit weird, but a notable and well written aritcle. Needs more sources and a checkup on facts. Sharkface217 20:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep- It did win a second place in an annual design award, which may well make it notable, as far as I'm aware there isn't a guideline for the notability of devices. And as to the COI issues: there are mentions of design drawbacks of the clock which seems to rule out strict vanity. Sections might need cleanup "Future plans" is a boarderline WP:Wikipedia is not a crystal ball violation and the detail given to the construction methods and design team may be excessive. I'd say 'weak' keep based on the boarderline notability and writing issues. Oh, and to the author, just because wikipedia has worse isn't a reason to save this one. Your arguments weren't bad, but they also didn't assert a grounding in wiki policy to keep the articles. The number of people that see the clock and mention it unfortunately isn't verifiable, and isn't really a source of wikipedia-defintion notability (a lot of peopel see the donut stand on the corner of North and Oakland too, and it's very distinctive architecturally, but it hardly deserves a wikipedia entry (donutcruft?)). If the design award can be proven, then that's the strongest argument in my book, as would non-trivial articles or mentions in notable press, heck, even the thesis paper the designers wrote, if published in a reputable journal would go a long way.129.89.68.218 22:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - seems a bit self-serving to me right now. When and if it is written up in some scholarly journals, then it can return. Alternatively, if kept, consider merging it in to McMaster University until it is noteworty enough to go solo. I looked for scholarly citations (not newspapers) in a graduate school library, and have yet to find the reliable resources I like to see. Keesiewonder 13:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment If Wikipedia were restricted to only articles which were written up in multiple 'scholarly' sources found in graduate school libraries, then many hundreds of thousands of articles would be up for deletion along with this one. Sourcing requirements should be pragmatic; if you believe that I don't have any significant over the Hamilton Spectator, the Toronto Metro, the Canadian Society of Mechanical Engineers, and various departments of McMaster University, then I propose that these are more than acceptable as sources.Burtonpe 04:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Sharkface217. Article can be improved and sourced and brought up to wiki standards. 203.218.207.217 01:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC) — 203.218.207.217 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • The article cites one independent source and is unlikely to gain further attention. Remember WP:N says "multiple, non-trivial published works" (emphasis mine). Copysan 04:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • That is your own opinion so don't imply it as a general consensus. And stop posting wikipedia policy. It doesn't bloody help! 203.218.207.217 04:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Please keep in mind WP:CIVIL, and quoting wikipedia policy is relevant since it is the applciation of the policy that determines whether the article is kept or deleted. But as for the assertion of only one independent source, there is the Hamilton Specator article which is from a major market newspaper, and engineering society documentation which is no longer online. -- Whpq 15:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Please see Bull —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.102.179.151 (talk • contribs).
          • Hi Whpq, I've been meaning to bring our certificate for the 2nd place in to work and scan it, but I've been in Las Vegas for the weekend and my brain is a bit addled. I will have something to show tommorrow, if the clock article still exists. Burtonpe 16:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • clarification request: Which user do you mean copysan? I think it isn't unreasonable to expect that from the user if he's writing about something he was involved in. He did make full disclosure of his potential conflict of interest and has been generally acting in good faith. If he can steer clear of POV issues I don't see why that ought to be an automatic impeachment of his credibility. That said I agree with Kessiewonder that the existing writeup is a bit self-serving and might be toned down. Wintermut3 07:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • What do you mean? I'm not talking about conflict of interest issues. I'm talking notability and verifiability. Copysan 04:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - but could be rewritten a bit though LHOON 11:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - per LHOON. 218.102.81.251 12:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC) — 218.102.81.251 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Weak Delete I find the subject matter interesting and the article well written, but have to agree with Edison - additional sources beyond the college newspapers would help to bolster notability. Endless blue 06:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • As said above, the article then should be given a chance to be improved rather than deleted. What is said is contradictory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.152.132.175 (talk • contribs) 00:04, December 3, 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not a notable invention, looks like a one off project. Suttungr 15:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • You have no idea what you're talking about. 203.218.213.180 23:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Two comments regarding Suttungr's post above; firstly, the article does not claim that the clock is any kind of invention. Secondly, I have never heard of 'one off projects' being excluded from Wikipedia. Applying this criteria would lead to the deletion of this article, this article, this article, etc. Burtonpe 04:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Searched through my files and found another source independant of the University, an article from the Toronto Metro newspaper (http://www.metronews.ca/). No electronic copy available because the Metro doesn't supply this stuff; took the info from a hard copy I saved. Burtonpe 05:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you also provide the date published, author, and headline of the article so that editors with access to a periodical database can check? The databases I have access to dont have the Toronto Metro, but others may. Copysan 06:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The line I added into the reference section of the article reads 'Torstar News Service. "Time piece becomes legacy", Toronto Metro, September 8, 2003' There was no author listed on the article, just 'Torstar News Service'. Burtonpe 16:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Endless blue, with whose sentiments I am in complete agreement. WMMartin 17:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Vandalism - I've reverted vadalism by User:219.77.82.186 who changed WMMartin's "Delete" into "Keep" -- Whpq 01:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you. WMMartin 17:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Sources I've taken a pic of the award certificate for the Canadian Society of Mechanical Engineers competition in which the clock came 2nd, you can see it here or in the article; still hoping to scan it tomorrow at work. I know that this is not exactly an iron-clad source, but hopefully you will believe me when I say I did not spend my weekend creating this certificate. I think that this certificate, plus the articles in The Hamilton Spectator and the Toronto Metro, in addition to all the McMaster literature (calling these sources 'college newspapers' or 'student newspapers' as above is incorrect), are sufficient to show notability. The MacEngineer especially is an Alumni publication, with little to no student input and a predominantly off-campus circulation. I believe they certainly address the (legitimate) comments above regarding the broken link to the CSME award and the need for multiple, independant sources. Burtonpe 04:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Scanned and uploaded the CSME certificate, accessible through the link above. Burtonpe 14:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Notable. 147.8.16.61 11:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Basically see what Uncle G says below, to whom you people should have listened. You guys have provided a tremendous deal of argumentation but no actual sources!!! about this guy other than some blog and entries on CDBaby and IMDB, which aren't terribly hard to get. This AfD debate has, bizarrely enough, had evidence of reliable third party coverage presented about it, while none could be found on Matthew Dallman himself beyond the blurb in the Washington Post, which doesn't really constitute non-trivial coverage on him. Since this is a high profile AfD, I really suggest people read and understand what Uncle G says below before jumping to any conclusions about systematic bias on Wikipedia. If reliable, published sources unrelated to Wikipedia or Dallman had been presented with information about him, this article would have been kept. But those sources don't seem to have covered him yet... so any beef should be with them for not writing about him, not with Wikipedia for merely enforcing our established policies. If you can't be bothered to read Uncle G's full comment, at least read the summary: "So if you wish to make an argument, please cite sources. Sources work. "I'm notable. I've done X, Y, and Z." does not." And the latter was all that was presented. W.marsh 17:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew Dallman

Matthew Dallman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

No references to establish notability. One entry in IMDB for Matthew Dallman, but no way to link the two. Fails WP:Notability. Hatch68 06:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• What does "no way to link the two" mean? "A Whirling Tango" is the film Dallman scored, and it is listed on this page. User:Curlygoose 30 November 2006
  • The IMDB entry has no information other than the name of the director, who shares the surname "Dallman" and that the total running time is "4 minutes." This is an obscure reference at best.--Hatch68 02:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Marquis Who's Who in America (mentioned in Dallman's article) is a long-reputable and refereed publication, and Dallman is in the 2007 edition for his work as a thinker, and composer. User:Curlygoose 30 November 2006
• Four other Wikipedia articles mention Dallman prominently, referencing him as integral artist, a voice for integral thought, a critic of Ken Wilber, as well as of Wilber's Integral University. This article thus should not be deleted. User:Curlygoose 30 November 2006
• IMDB listing for Dallman added to External Links User:Curlygoose 30 November 2006
• Delete, fails WP:BIO criteria. Terence Ong 07:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, vanity self-promotion. -- RHaworth 07:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 07:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, potential notability just doesn't pan out in reliable sources, WP:COI seals it. --Dhartung | Talk 07:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Very suspect article, likely to be conflict of interest. The subject's production company is called "Electric Goose", and the author's handle is a single purpose account, Curlygoose. He creates an article in wikipedia and then pulls quotes from wiki onto his website, creating his own little walled garden. One music credit does not notable make. Ohconfucius 08:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• I am simply attempting to recreate the article originally created by user User:M Alan Kazlev because it was deleted two days ago. In the process, I have referenced Dallman's personal website and writings in order to fill out the article, so it won't be deleted again. Plain and simple.User:Curlygoose 30 November 2006
  • According to the deleted edits, you were the original creator of the article, on 2006-07-05, not M Alan Kazlev. Uncle G 14:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Marquis Who's Who is itself a vanity publication where inclusion is often dependent on the person buying a copy of the book. Even if it wasn't, you give no specific reference to which edition someone would find this person in. Please take the time to read all of the Wiki Policies people are taking the time to link to for you. You have to provide solid references to back everything up.--Hatch68 20:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Individual appears notanle to me given his previous association with Wilber, a popular new age writer as well as his music releases and book deal. — goethean ॐ 17:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, as I suspect that this is an advertising article but at the same time he seems to be a legitamate artist and blogger. And we have many pages for bloggers. Even if this page did start out as an ad, we can clean it up to improve it's Wiki-credibility. Sharkface217 20:30, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:Bio, and per Hatch. --TheOtherBob 16:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Friends, Matthew Dallman here. I was just made aware of this article's consideration for deletion. In the spirit of the WP:AB guidelines, which speak of "Therefore, it is considered proper on Wikipedia to let others do the writing. Instead, contribute material or make suggestions on the article's talk page", here I am to do just this.

  I would feel strange arguing for my "notability", and it appears that Wikipedia culture doesn't believe I should, anyway, which is fine by me. I can speak to a couple issues, though. First, the Marquis' Who's Who in America, which will include me in the 2007 edition, does not require me to purchase a copy of the book, so that charge by Hatch68 is incorrect. My credentials were independently judged by its editors to be worthy of inclusion. Also, Hatch68 questions the IMDB listing; it is for a short film that my wife directed, and I scored; the film played in various film festivals, incl the prestigious Chi. Int'l. in 2005, in one of their "shorts programs"; it also played at other festivals, in Chicago and Milwaukee, USA. The IMDB listing was, I believe, created by someone internal to the Chicago Int'l Film Festival.

  I have an email acquaintance with the creator of this original listing page for me (M Alan Kazlev); he informed me after he made the page, and invited me to make whatever corrections were needed. I took him up, but only on minor points. It seems now, as I know more about Wikipedia, that such participation by me is a Wiki-no no. Other than that, I have had no part in this, but it was clear, from seeing the page first develop, that Alan pulled from the bio page on my personal website (matthewdallman.com/bio.html), and that other users (I don't know who) were adding to the page, so the charge by Ohconfucius is incorrect. Lastly, it might be noteworthy that, in addition to the arts journal I founded (POLYSEMY), I was involved with another publication -- The Manifest (the-manifest.org). In addition to authoring several articles for that magazine, their editor in chief interviewed me. (see http://www.the-manifest.org/features/dallman1.html).

  I fear I've said too much, so I'll stop. If there are any questions, let me know. Sharkface217's suggestion to "improve it's Wiki-credibility" makes sense to me. M Dallman 1 Dec 2006

  • I made no charges concerning the Who's Who book. I simply pointed out that by itself it is a suspect reference due to vanity inclusions. The point of this whole discussion is not really whether you are notable or not. The premise here is that there is a real lack of reliable references that can provide verifiability of notability.

    I will go on the record to say that I really suspect some sockpuppetry going on here as well. The link to the Wikipedia article was featured prominently on your home page. The username Curlygoose has two clues; the first being that your picture that was uploaded and used in the article shows you with very curly hair, the second is that your production company is named Electric Goose. Also, the user Curlygoose uploaded the picture used in the article, then put a copyright notice on the picture that the copyright holder allows anyone to use it for any purpose, which leads me to believe that Curlygoose is the copyright holder. None of this is definitive proof, but viewing them as a whole makes me extremely suspicious.--Hatch68 19:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

  • The way to construct articles about people is to use non-trivial published works from sources that are independent of the person concerned. (See User:Uncle G/On notability#Writing_about_subjects_close_to_you.) Re-hashing an autobiography (taken off the subject's own web site or otherwise) is not the way to write an article on a person, a band, or a company. We remember the lessons of Jamie Kane (AfD discussion), Alkhemi (AfD discussion), and Aladin (AfD discussion). A simple re-hash of Jamie Kane's web-site would have resulted in a completely fictional article about a nonexistent person. Aladin's web site quoted references to magazine articles that, when one looks at the on-line archive of the magazine concerned, don't actually exist. And only one person stated that Alkhemi even existed. Autobiographies are not to be trusted, for the reasons laid out at Wikipedia:Autobiography.

    The best way to demonstrate that a person is notable is to show that such published works exist by pointing to them, i.e. to cite sources to demonstrate that our Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies (WP:BIO) are satisfied. If you can do that, you can make a strong argument for keeping. However, conversely, if no such published works exist, a reliable and full Wikipedia article cannot be written, because we don't base our articles on autobiographies, on people, companies, groups, bands, web sites, and whatnot telling the world about themselves. As all of our notability criteria for people, companies, web sites, bands, and so forth state, autobiographies, advertising, and self-publicity are not routes to having a Wikipedia article.

    So if you wish to make an argument, please cite sources. Sources work. "I'm notable. I've done X, Y, and Z." does not. Sources! Sources! Sources! Uncle G 14:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - IMDB listing, Journal editor, discography, blogger. Hence notable. If anyone has problems with vanity etc then the page can be edited accordingly M Alan Kazlev 21:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but I don't agree with the concept of adding things up to achieve notability. A person with a non-notable IMDB listing, who is also a non-notable journal editor, with a non-notable discography, and who writes a non-notable blog is not therefore notable. (If he were notable for one of those things, the others wouldn't matter, either - if he were a notable blogger, it wouldn't matter for notability terms whether he was also a non-notable journal editor.) Remember that although we may think that a person who's done all these things is impressive, that's not the same as notable.--TheOtherBob 22:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete for lack of reliable sources and apparent failure of WP:BIO. shotwell 10:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete fails WP:BIO. (Backface 17:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC))Prolific blogger but all work is self-published, including music, article and journals. The film that relates to credited music is not notable in its own right. The external comments are all from a close community and self published on web by non-RS. Kazlev and Goethean who propose 'keep' above are both from this community.

• • • • In other words having expertise in a specialised subject automatically means one is part of a "close community", and therefore one's comments don't matter? Two wrong assumptions here - first that there is a "close community", second that one's opinions don't matter only because it is a specialised subject. If you look at any specialised subject, let us say (to cite another of my interests) a particular field or subfield of Paleontology, you will always find only a small number of students and researchers and workers in that field, precisely because it is such a specialised subject. But that doesn't malke it non-notable, nor does it make the opinions of those who are students of that field irrelevant. Same here. M Alan Kazlev 23:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Once again I feel this is another attempt at deflecting from the real issue here, which is that no one seems to be able to come up with reliable, verifiable sources to demonstrate notability. No one that has advocated for keeping this article has addressed this issue. No sources = No Verifiability = No Notability, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the policies.--Hatch68 23:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
          • See my note on "Countering systematic bias" below M Alan Kazlev 21:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• • 'CurlyGoose', Goethean and Kazlev suggest a number of reasons for keeping the article, none of which stand-up. Previous association with or criticism of someone notable, even Wilber(!?), does not in itself demonstrate notability. The 'wiki-credibility' of the article is irrelevent if its inclusion is prohibited by a lack of notability. Other wikipedia references cannot be used to establish notability without real external RS.
  • This previously deleted article appears to have been resurrected by the subject's sock and then he has the cheek to comment above seperately using both his sock and his own name. Sheeesh... An administrator will be able to compare the ip addresses, if Dallman wants to state here that he and curlygoose are unrelated.
  • It is interesting to note that the addition of Dallman to the Integral Art page was made by Curlygoose. On the Ken Wilber talk page user 67.109.221.130 identifies himeself as Dallman and then goes on to add POV to the references to himself on that page and the other pages that are used here to justify his notability.
  • Matthew - Do not be offended by this deletion - notability is determined by wikipedia policy not by how important you feel yourself to be or how proud you are of your entry here. --Backface 17:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
  • It is also interesting to note in the history of this debate that CurlyGoose originally asserted that he had no connection with Dallman, but has now removed that statement following the observation that and administrator would be able to determine the truth of the matter from ip addresses. This would appear to underline the socking, bad faith and self-(re)creation of the article and it should be deleted speedily. --Backface 08:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep this entire debate has been referenced in the Washington Post. [17].

Catchpole 21:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment Catchpole - Are you suggesting that a reference to this debate by a newspaper column about wikipedia pages being deleted because of a lack of notability actually makes the page notable? Really!!??? --Backface 21:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
    • It's a verifiable and reliable source. Catchpole 21:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually it just means that this debate now has a verifiable and notable reference. Matthew Dallman still doesn't, which is a point he and others seem to not be able to grasp.Hatch68 03:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. --Mallarme 09:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • • Comment. -- I particularly love this puffery cruft from the article. Perhaps it can be kept somewhere...
      • He explores ideas within the realm of art. These include integral as "a living tradition of imaginative fullness through the ages", art as transdisciplinary field, what "postconventional" art means, as well as "artistry studies", an area of academic study that Dallman himself has founded.
    • --Backface 09:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete. No obvious notability, and although he has a few Google references they are all from minor blogs or "captive media", so referencing is inadequate. ( "Captive media" are media which are "captured" by the subject of a proposed Wikipedia entry - that is, are directly or indirectly under his control or influence, typically with a view to heightening his perceived importance. In this category are personal webpages and blogs, of course, but also included are the blogs of family ( his wife in this case ) and close friends, technical or professional journals of which the subject is founder, editor, contributor or financial supporter, and indiscriminate newspapers and broadcasters that include press releases from the subject or his representatives virtually verbatim. When we carry out an AfD debate like this we are trying to avoid Wikipedia being "captured" for public relations purposes, or to advance an individual's personal agenda or career. ) WMMartin 18:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I should also note that the fact that this debate has now been referenced in the Washington Post is a successful example of media capture, as it will contribute to the blurring of the lines between notability and non-notability. Hatch68 is correct when he says that this does not make Dallman notable. We need to nip this sort of thing in the bud. WMMartin 18:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The need to counter systematic bias

User:Hatch68 mentions that no one seems to be able to come up with reliable, verifiable sources to demonstrate notability (for Dallman).

And this is my counter argument, that what Hatch68 has said re the Dallman bio applies in a much broader manner, and reflects an unavoidable and non-intentioned bias among Wikipedians, every one of whom has the very best of intentions. After all, how does one define notability? Who sets the standards? And how do we avoid these standards simply perpetuated the already established bias and over-emphasis in certain (albeit very worthy) subjects and perspectives, to the detriment of other (equally worthy) subjects and perspectives?

I'll give an example. I wrote a stubby bio page on David Grimaldi, co-author of Evolution of the Insects, an important textbook and definitive popular review of Paleoentomology. At some point this page seems to have disappeared. What were the reasons why he was considered non-notable?

Yet at the same time there are entries on every detail of pop sci fi franchises (less so serious SF). I'll pick a page at random: List of Star Wars comic books. Every comic book and every author listed. Now, mind you, I strongly support this!!! I think it is way cool the way that Wikipedia does list every character and detail and comic book, no matter how non-notable they may be to anyone outside that particular area of geekdom!

In fact, this was one of the main things that inspired me to write entries on Paleontological authors like Grimaldi, on Integral artists like Dallman, and on Integral theory critics and sceptics like Geoff Falk, in the first place. Surely all these people are at least just as notable as an obscure planet or character in the Star Trek or Doctor Who franchises, say. btw, ST and Dr Who rock!, I'm not dissing these shows, I grew up watching the original series of Star Trek and the early Doctor Whos, there were among the things that really got me interested in SF; but i'm just trying to make a point. I could draw similar examples from anywhere in Wikipedia. And what all this means is that Wikipedia is essentially a biased coverage, and that to Wikipedia's credit this is recognised. I argue here that the Dallman page should be kept, and the Grimaldi and Falk pages restored, as a way of helping to balance the unavoidable and unintentional bias that this vast and magnificent project has. M Alan Kazlev 21:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Your argument has valid points, but it does not belong on this page. This discussion is simply to reach a consensus on whether the Matthew Dallman article has enough verifiable references of notability to maintain its inclusion on Wikipedia. I would suggest you make your arguments on the discussion pages of WP:Bio or WP:Notability. Hatch68 22:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if your Grimaldi article got caught up in this conflict which appears to be in regard to a different David Grimaldi. — goethean ॐ 22:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

M Alan Kazlev appears to be attempting to argue that to govern an encyclopaedia in a manner that ensures that it is encyclopaedic is to show a systematic bias against subjects that are not encylopaedic. This debate has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with notability. Perhaps he is not aware of the other wikis which may more suitably house this type of information. He may also wish to think about the Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions - the presence of sf pages in wikipedia does not make Dallman notable. An RS would do but there isn't one. --Backface 00:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep an obvious bad faith (several oned by the same anon ) `'mikkanarxi 20:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Carroll

Peter Carroll (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Article flagged for Non-Notability quite a while ago, but AfD stalled as IP editor who placed template could not complete AfD page setup --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 06:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - I think we ought to be writing about this guy. MER-C 07:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • aside - YES! (now, that guy is notable.) --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 07:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep - Deleting this would be like deleting Aleister Crowley or Gerald Gardner. Also, I am at loss as to why you flagged this again. I brought up the IP who originally flagged this to the admins' attention, and I assumed it was them who removed the tag the first time, just as they did with many of the other pages this user tagged.[18] --Tsuzuki26 08:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • comment - I did not flag this "again", I reverted the removal of an AfD notice. The AfD notice was inappropriately removed by FK0071a, not an admin. As I explained in response to your comments on my talk page, I am simply helping out an IP editor and a stalled AfD process. I have no stake in this. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - If it had not been removed by FK0071a it would have been removed by an admin, just as most of that IP's AfD tags were. --Tsuzuki26 21:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep - I fully agree with Tsuzuki26! Wikipedia is about information for further study. Wikipedia supplies information and it's stupid AfD like this that really are putting me off Wiki. I mean, this guy co-founded the Illuminates of Thanateros! He coined the term Chaos Magick and was the 'inventor' of it I suppose. He is one of Europes most well known occultists, and one of, if not the, most well known Chaoist/Chaoite. He is also a well known author. FK0071a 09:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • If those statements are true, you should be able to cite sources confirming all of them. You should also be able to cite sources to demonstrate that this person satisfies the Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies. We don't do unsourced biographies here. Currently, you have cited no sources at all, anywhere. Uncle G 13:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - We could change the name to Peter J. Carroll, seeing as how that's the name he's published under, and it would avoid confusion. --Tsuzuki26 10:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Agree with comment this author is already shown under [19] FK0071a 10:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep comparing him to Aleister Crowley is a bit of hyperbole, but Peter Carroll meets WP:BIO and is rather well known in occult circles. A move to Peter J. Carroll or Peter Carroll (occultist) and a dab at this namespace might be in order, but not deletion.--Isotope23 16:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Peter J Carroll is one of the most widely influential occult writers and practitioners of the last 50 years. He "invented" Chaos Magic. He sold many 10`s of thousands of his books, over the course of 3 decades. Do i sense sour-grapes asthe reason for this nomination?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.219.142.172 (talk • contribs).
• Keep per his notability. Sharkface217 20:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy keep - possible bad faith nom. Peter Carroll is, like others have said, one of the most widely influential occult authors, invented Chaos Magic, etc., etc. -999 (Talk) 20:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, meets WP:BIO. Nominator has added AfD to an unusually high number of similar articles. Mallanox 22:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, meets WP:BIO. Peter Carroll is a god. 22:20, 30 November 2006—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.219.142.172 (talk • contribs). (second vote by this user)

• Keep, Author of at least 4 published books from a reputable publisher in the genre (read: not vanity press), written about by other authors such as Phil Hine in Prime Chaos and if I recall by Packwood as well, in addition to topical periodicals. Mentioned in numerous websites; Google shows nearly 300k results for "peter carroll and chaos magic" alone, not including 305k more for the alternate spelling of "magic" as "magick" and various mispellings of his name showing yet more. If Chaos Magick is notable as a new religious movement or philosophical trend, then he's definately notable as the author of one of their most important works of philosophy and technique (Liber Chaos). If that doesn't fulfil WP:BIO I'll eat my hat. Wintermut3 23:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the above, passes WP:BIO. I don't see the problem here. RFerreira 02:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 02:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chayathirai

Chayathirai (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Because Chayathirai and The Coloured Curtain only get 12 distinct Google hits when combined with "-wikipedia" and those were for booksellers. In addition, the author himself his name only gets 175 Google hits in total, this article included, of which 61 are sufficiently distinct from one another to merit listing. At least one bookseller-hit only mentioned it in passing as a "similar item", and there is at least one "this only appeared in links pointing to this page", and then, of course, there are the Wikipedia clones. Only one version of Amazon.com has it according to this Google search, and it appears that no one from anywhere has cared to review it in all this time. Also, Chayathirai "best novel" tamil nadu gets me 8 hits from Wikipedia, its clones and some blurbage from three sites that are selling the book. One site even tells you that that's just what the publisher says (that it won the "Best Novel Award" from the Tamil Nadu Government). I am beginning to doubt that the Government of Tamil Nadu actually bothers with such things, because of the results of "best novel award" tamil nadu government 2/3 Chayathirai (the Wikipedia article and a website that sells the book) and 1/3 clear reference to the Best Novel Award said to be given by the Académie Française. Rmky87 06:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Terence Ong 07:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. MER-C 07:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. utcursch | talk 07:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep Delete as later comment below The article's messy history (deprodded twice) includes removing what was IMO copyvio text from an independent review in India Today by Dr. Prema Nanda Kumar. There's also some international context. The English version of the novel is listed, for example, at University of Illinois at Springfield[20], with the author under another spelling "Cupraparatimaniyan". Mereda 08:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Comment There's an official source here[21] that verifies the existence of Tamil Nadu state government prizes for best Tamil books. Mereda 11:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Keep : Please note that Indian Authors are Books are not represented fully in Internet. Just because something is not found in Google (or in many occasions, it is not properly searched) it does not make an author or work non-notable. When Google cannot be used to determine notability for Indian related content, nominating an article based on Google Hits alone does not augur well for the Encyclopedia project. Please note that "non-notable" in not synonymous with "I don't know" The author is a well known person in literary circles and the book has been included in the syllabi of many universities here This books satisfies the WP Guidelines for Inclusion  Doctor Bruno  15:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Comment I am beginning to doubt that the Government of Tamil Nadu actually bothers with such things No need to doubt. Tamil Nadu government gives awards for best books. Hope your doubt is cleared now. it appears that no one from anywhere has cared to review it in all this time As already told, Indian languages are underrepresented in Internet. Also most of the Websites and reviews use hundreds of fonts and that is not searchable.

Comment Believe me, I'm aware of the "not-searchable" thing, after trying to search http://www.indiatodaygroup.com for "POMMEELEAN"'s review. I have not yet found evidence that this "POMMEELEAN" ever won anything from the Sahitya Akademi and I have to go. There isn't another way to transliterate that, is there?--Rmky87 17:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment The only five Google hits for "Pommeelean" are Wikipedia and her clones. And the Sahitya Akademi website is Google-searchable. And I've finally found the part where it talks about the "TAMIL SANGA PALAGAI - KURALPEEDAM".--Rmky87 19:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Oh, and no one cared to review "Cupraparatimaniyan"'s The Coloured Curtain on eBay, Shopzilla, Rediff (whose tagline is "India's online books and gift store", by the way), and that last hit is just a place that helps people find places to buy books.--Rmky87 19:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, as not everything in the third developing world is yet on the Internet.Sharkface217 20:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment That is true, yes, but I am not claiming zero Google hits. I am claiming damn near zero Google hits outside of bookdealers and Wikipedia clones (see my Comments over at the author's AfD page for details). Notable Tamil authors may not get as much English-language Internet mention as European authors do, but what they do get is definitely meaningful. Take Dr. Prema Nandakumar, for example (she is likely the "Dr. Prema Nanda Kumar mentioned in this earliest versions of this article, and yes, I was looking for Google-searchable proof that she was real). She may only get 142 distinct Google hits, but they're on the level of The Hindu articles centered around her or featuring her in the "main cast of characters", so to speak. And you know what? Her stuff is available on the American version of Amazon.com. I didn't see a single mention of either Chayathirai or Subrabharathimanian in The Hindu. Not even the most trivial. Don't you find that strange?--Rmky87 01:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and one last thing: India Today may be members only, but it is very Google-searchable if you know what you're doing. And you know what else? There was absolutely no mention of Chayathirai in any of their pages! The same goes for Subrabharathimanian! Isn't that interesting?--Rmky87 01:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment I'm impressed! And since no-one has found verification of anything positive, like Dr Bruno saying the book is on university syllabi, I'll switch my view from weak keep to delete. (By the way, looking for Tamil book awards in English, I set up a new stub yesterday on Mu Metha. The Google results for him and his Tamil Nadu state award were thin - but they do exist.) Mereda 07:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment I spend more than Rs 1000 per month on books, but I am yet to buy a book from Amazon or write a review there for a Tamil Book  Doctor Bruno  12:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment But don't you find it odd that no one cared to do so at any of those other places? Or that Dr. Prema Nandakumar has apparently never written anything for India Today? The article says that the English version was published in 2003 and vedamsbooks.com says it won an award from the Government of Tamil Nadu in 1999. India Today was up in 1997...um, when was this originally published?--Rmky87 15:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Hmmm, it appears that India Today's archives don't go back farther than 1997, and that the first edition of Chayathirai was published in 1994. In any case, I find it odd that Dr. Nandakumar would review it there instead of The Hindu, given that she wrote for them (her name gets 342 Google hits on hinduonnet.com) or on Boloji, where she is a contributing writer. Hmmm, it seems that The Hindu's online archives only go back to 2000, and their literary review archives only go back to 2001.--Rmky87 16:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Of course, there's the fact that Prema Nandakumar was never mentioned anywhere in the pages of India Today from 1997 onward...--Rmky87 17:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Having read some of Dr. Nandakumar's work, I have come to doubt that she ever wrote the quoted review for this book: her English is better than that. I'm not just talking about the inappropriate spaces between the last word and the period after it; I'm talking about the parts that didn't make sense.--Rmky87 20:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete because no real argument has been provided to contradict Rmky87’s points. Fledgeling 01:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Fledgeling. Hornplease 19:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Fledgeling. India Today < Google. •Elomis•

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 15:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Ortega

Joe Ortega (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable candidate, lost in GOP primary. Nothing else in his rather extensive bio suggests notability. Montco 06:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - fails WP:BIO. Neither his work with UPS nor his political work confer notability on him; it does not appear that he's ever been elected to any office. --Hyperbole 06:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable failed election candidate. MER-C 07:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete. A merge could be discussed further but AfD is not needed for that. W.marsh 18:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Sword Project

The Sword Project (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Obscure software product, does not assert notability in any way. Demiurge 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Also nominating these subprojects for the same reason:

• MacSword
• GnomeSword
• BibleTime
• LcdBible

Demiurge 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• The Sword API project is quite notable in that it may in fact be the primary and only Open Source Bible software and library in English (if not any language). So, it would be foolish to actually have no article about it whatsoever.

  The question is this: Should all of the information about the API, Frontends, derivative projects (JSword), etc., be condensed into the Crosswire Society page, or should this project page remain, and this information (not pertaining to the society itself, but their projects) be grouped here.

  This is the real question, not the actual deletion of all information about this notable project.

  Another factor in the notability of this project is that it is licensed under the GPL (last time I checked), and is now beginning to appear either with many GNU/Linux distributions (bundled with) OR is available in almost all repositories.

  I personally will take it upon myself to expand and tighten the articles pertaining to Crosswire and their Sword API project (along with related information on the Frontends, etc.). However, we must decide if it should all be placed into the primary Crosswire article, or kept here.

  I posit that it should all be placed under the Crossire article, under a heading:

  ==Projects==

  or something similar

  StudiosusTheologiae 21:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• delete all, unless notability is established via third-party sources. A piece of software isn't notable just because it exists, but only if people are using it and talking about it. I see no evidence of that in this article. Nandesuka 14:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, trialsanderrors 05:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep perhaps another instance of deleting the unfamiliar.ST, perhaps yu could wuickly add some content.DGG 06:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • No, but that's an example of a bad rationale that has no basis in policy. A good rationale, in contrast, would address the above assertion that there is a lack of sources independent of the subject and its authors/creators, by citing some. WP:SOFTWARE are the criteria to satisfy, and Wikipedia:Citing sources explains how to cite sources. Uncle G 13:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"This software is among core products of a notable software developer." This particular developed is notable in it's field, as argued above.DGG 18:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete While the project is clearly a useful one, Wikipedia is not here to provide a platform for new software to achieve prominence. Become well known, get written up, THEN create an article. Edison 15:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Unless third-party reliable sources are added before this AfD is closed, I support deletion per the WP:V policy and the WP:SOFTWARE guideline. Just being the (allegedly) only open-source English-language implementation of something does not make it notable by WP's standards. Just being another method to access the most-known book does not make it notable by WP's standards. Barno 18:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, but merge all & move to The SWORD Project. This is notable and has received press coverage such as this Syracuse Post-Standard article. It also easily meets the standards for number of users (particularly for a niche application). --Karnesky 23:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Just checked. It is included in gentoo and FreeBSD & probably most other distros too--this seems like an obvious keep to me.... --Karnesky 00:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • bibletime has had other unique articles written about it. bibletime and gnomesword are both in gentoo and freebsd. Thus, I don't know how strongly I feel about merging those two. --Karnesky 01:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I dislike it when people invoke distributions like Gentoo to "prove" notablity. Gentoo's only qualification is that the source be available and that it compile. This project also lacks the usual mailing list or forum chatter that most notable projects have. That said, Linux World News points us to the Ubuntu Christian Edition which highlights GnomeSword (and by extension The Sword Project libraries). Since the parameters of the special Ubuntu edition implies some editorial control, WP:SOFTWARE probably applies. A look at the Google listing shows that this is a small fish (sorry, pun not intended) in the open soruce pond, but it does appear to be tops in its category. - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 05:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • WP:SOFTWARE specifically mentions inclusion in FreeBSD as evidence supporting notability. --Karnesky 06:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - hey, I've used that product before! Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. popcon ranks #7922 for gnomesword and #9256 for bibletime, out of 61426 packages. That would definitely indicate notability. (gnomesword doesn't fall too much from mediawiki1.7, which struggles around at #7521. =) However, I'd still weakly recommend merge afterwards. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Merge all into a new Study Bible software articleThe Sword Project, or something of that nature. --- RockMFR 07:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: if a merge was completed, the best merge would probably be into The Sword Project, IMHO. I might be wrong though... Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Since I am new, and know your attitude towards the opinions of newbies, I shan't state an opinion on this deletion issue. I came here while downloading Bibletime and Sword for Mandriva -- which has used it for some time. I will be watching with interest, because I was planning to write an article on Tepexi de Rodriguez, Puebla, Mexico -- where I am currently living. It is a small village of no import, except it is world famous among paleontologists because it is one of the top locations for fossils in the world, and it seems disgraceful there is nothing about it on Wikipedia. I edited for five years a Mensa local newsletter, and certainly understand editing issues. However, to invest the time required to produce an article to your high standards, then have it discussed for total deletion essentially because there are no paleontology professors or students here, would be a tough row to hoe. Better to save my time and let them google for the same material I would be using for the article. --- irlandes 21:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Can't speak for anyone else, but I think new people are what keeps the entire WP project alive. All you need do to keep your article about Tepexi de Rodriguez from deletion is to make sure it prominently says that it is significant because of the fossils & make sure there are at least two good published references cited to the fact that it is notable. Then just link it to the appropriate palenontology pages, add links from appropriate paleontology pages to it, for example from famous species unearthed there. And I hope you will stay and do some more. DGG 22:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to create your article; in all likelihood, it won't be deleted; most small towns are afforded their own articles (e.g., Stormstown, PA). BTW, feel free to vote keep if you'd like on this article, especially if you feel this link was helpful, and the software notable. Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Keep or Merge with redirects into the The Sword Project. Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete, but please cite some sources in the actual article. W.marsh 16:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EcoTalk

EcoTalk (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete This page is nothing more than an advertisment for a show. It needs to go. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Theichibun (talk • contribs) 13:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 15:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Notable radio program, broacast on stations across the country, 164000 Google hits. Edison 21:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Then why such a short article for it? Theichibun 12:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Short is not a criterion for deletion. See WP:STUB. --Dhartung | Talk 07:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, trialsanderrors 05:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep worth improving, and Im getting to feel tht is the criterion not technicalities. The ones impossible to improve, or not worth improving, are he ones to delete. DGG 06:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I get 26,800 Google hits for "Rosenberg EcoTalk" [22]. Apparently it's a daily radio program on affiliates across America - an undeniably notable program with an unfortunately short article. --Hyperbole 06:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, obvious WP:RS coverage. Tagging for expansion, sourcing. --Dhartung | Talk 07:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep notable show, certainly more notable than 99% of schools on this encyclopedia. Carlossuarez46 22:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Puff piece. Show notability, please. WMMartin 18:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. So it's maybe notable, but we still don't have any WP:RS to show it. We can't properly evaluate notability without them. Sandstein 06:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. W.marsh 03:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Global powder metallurgy property database

Global_powder_metallurgy_property_database (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This article appears to be spam. It was created by the user EPMA and references only epma.com. —Ben FrantzDale 13:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 15:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete as blatant advertising. Demiurge 19:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This is actually an important database sponsored byt several trade organizations in technical field. The editors obviously need help in writing it.

I am, incidentally, a little alarmed atthe tendency to list articles for AfD when the reasonable step would be to place a warning --whether a template or personal. Editors who do inadequate articles about significant organizations deserve help, not censure. They are often earnest and sincere and just need to know how we do things here. If it turns out there's nothingthere, then that's another matter. DGG 04:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, trialsanderrors 05:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep - 122 Google hits on this very specific search term [23] - it's not a lot, but then, this is a very specialized database. The article desperately needs help - it doesn't explain its importance and is a borderline copyvio (it isn't ripped entirely from one source, that I can find, but it looks like a lot of individual sentences are). Still, I get the feeling that this is verifiable, does have some importance, and deserves an article. --Hyperbole 06:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Google hits.Sharkface217 20:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep and cleanup. As said above, "editors who do inadequate articles about significant organizations deserve help, not censure." --- RockMFR 00:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, and Cleanup to remove the blatant advertising. We're not paper, so I feel we've got room for this mildly notable database. But the advertising sets my teeth on edge. WMMartin 18:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep per above; I've done some cleanup and removed the blatant spam. Sandstein 06:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. I'm only closing the debate; someone else performed the delete. →Bobby← 18:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Noble (politician)

Mark Noble (politician) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable political candidate/student. Ran for OH Lt. Governor as a Libertarian and lost. Currently a student with nothing else suggesting notability. Montco 06:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Generally, a politician has to make a successful run (and at the state level or higher, at that) to be notable enough for a Wikipedia article. --Hyperbole 06:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable failed election candidate. MER-C 07:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Borderline speediable per CSD A7. He wrote the piece about his boss, Bill Peirce and now is expecting to ride on his coattails? Ohconfucius 07:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. I'm only closing the debate; someone else performed the delete. →Bobby← 18:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lewis Katz

Lewis Katz (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable candidate. Soundly defeated in his only run for any office. Nothing else in bio suggests any notability. Montco 06:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete This is supposed to be an article about a politician (well, "polititian") but there's no indication that he's ever held any political office. -- IslaySolomon | talk 06:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete per CSD A7/G11, and tagged as such. So he's a me-too candidate, and got nothing to say? Ohconfucius 07:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable failed election candidate. MER-C 07:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete a7. NawlinWiki 15:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brian R. Thomas

Brian R. Thomas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non notable one-time candidate for US Congress. Soundly defeated. No other claim to notability. Montco 06:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete per CSD A7, and tagged as such. Ohconfucius 07:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sandstein 06:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peggy Zone Fisher

Peggy Zone Fisher (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete as non-notable person. This may end up being a little controversial though. I simply can't believe that wives/daughters/politicians are inherently notable. Some, like Chelsea Clinton or Laura Bush are notable. But this one certainly would not be notable on her own. Montco 06:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Fails WP:BIO. Best case mergeto Lee Fisher. Ohconfucius 07:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 07:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable in her own right. If she gets elected to something herself, she's in, but for now she's out. WMMartin 18:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Delete.--Húsönd 20:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grant Mahoney

Grant Mahoney (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

High school athlete. No claim of notability, no sources, sub-stub. Edison 14:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Punkmorten 17:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:BIO -- Whpq 17:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete since high school athletes aren't notable 99% of the time, and this is not one of those times. Chris Buckey 18:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Delete because he is the best kicker in Iowa and deserves to be recognized. Howie3310 19:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Please add references to the article from newspapers to document this claim. That is the sort of thing that is needed to establish notability. Didn't he also play basketball? Edison 05:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Ability to kick items a long distance does not indicate notability. --Fred McGarry 12:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment It could if there were multiple independent sources reporting on, say a pro athlete or the best college athlete, but no such sources have appeared for this article. Edison 16:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The contributions of Howie3310 are restricted to this article, Linn-Mar High School and Jack Trice Stadium. He (or you?) may deserve to be recognised but that doesn't mean that he is. Wikipedia articles should be about people who are famous, not people who are going to be famous. DrKiernan 15:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sandstein 06:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Dovilla

Mike Dovilla (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Delete as non-notable one-time candidate. Took only 34% of the vote in his only race. Nice background, but nothing that really makes this gentleman notable. Montco 06:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - non-notable failed election candidate. MER-C 07:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom -- Whpq 17:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Being a major-party candidate for Congress is notable, regardless of how close the race was. JamesMLane t c 08:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sandstein 06:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gabrielle Downey

Gabrielle Downey (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable one-time candidate for office. Finished fourth in the Democratic primary with 13% of the vote. Nothing else in her background suggests notability. Montco 06:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• The subject "was inducted into the Winton Woods High School Athletic Hall of Fame in 2002". ;-) Just kidding, Delete per nom. Ohconfucius 07:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable failed election candidate. MER-C 07:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - she finished fourth in the Democratic primary for a U.S. House seat, with 3,700 votes.[24] And that's the most notable thing she's done. John Broughton | Talk 16:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom -- Whpq 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sandstein 06:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eric Minamyer

Eric Minamyer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This was nominated more than a year ago and closed with no consensus. Now that the election is well in the past, I would like to give this another shot. This person has run once for office. He finished fifth in the GOP primary with less than 5% of the vote. Other than getting some attention for making some unfair charges against an opponent, he has nothing else to suggest notability. Montco 06:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Failed congressional candidate in what was not even a close contest does not pass WP:BIO. He was not made any more notable by having made a ludicrous attempt to sallie his opponent. Ohconfucius 07:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - non-notable failed election candidate. MER-C 07:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per nom - Whpq 18:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sandstein 06:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leslie J. Spaeth

Leslie J. Spaeth (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Nominating as a non-notable political figure. This one is a little tougher than prior nominations as this person actually holds an office. However a state committee seat is a party seat and there are literally dozens of state committee people in OH. Also a party chairman for a middling county in OH. No evidence that he has been elected to any government position. Montco 06:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• delete per nom. does not appear all that notable per WP:BIO. Ohconfucius 07:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. With no overt assertion of notability appears eligible for speedy. --Dhartung | Talk 07:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. MER-C 07:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom -- Whpq 18:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Sharkface217 20:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete from Wikipedia. I note that most of this seems to exist on Wiktionary already, at the extensive category listing, and a completed transwiki is reported on each article. W.marsh 16:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of idioms in the English language (B)

List of idioms in the English language (B) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

List of idioms in the English language (C) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

List of idioms in the English language (D) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

List of idioms in the English language (E) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

List of idioms in the English language (F) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This afd found that there is strong consensus that lists of idioms violate WP:WINAD. Additional concerns are that they are unsourced, and that there are problems sourcing them and that they contain original research. The only defence put up was the non-argument that these lists are useful. Also nominated are the lists of idioms for the letters C, D, E, and F. Transwikiing to Wiktionary, for the ones that aren't in wikt:Category:Idioms is optional. MER-C 06:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete this content, in this form, may well be useful for some project - if anyone wants it, they should have the opportunity to grab these before they're gone - but these are blatantly in violation of WP:NOT. It's only fair to stop this and let those interested compile the lists somewhere else, before they get past F. Opabinia regalis 07:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  They already have, it's going to take a while to get rid of all of them. I plan on putting another five on the chopping block each day from today. MER-C 07:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  Why do them piecemeal? It's not like anyone's going to vote delete on everything but H, Q, and W. WLD below (and possibly others) volunteered to transwiki them; why not just leave them in articlespace if he's planning on doing it soon) or move them to his userspace if not? Opabinia regalis 01:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, WP:NOT a dictionary, this should go to Wiktionary if possible. WP:V, WP:OR. Article is unencyclopedic, not needed on Wikipedia. This better stop quickly. Move it to Wiktionary (if possible. Terence Ong 07:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Also I would like to add List of one-letter English words, List of two-letter English words and List of three-letter English words for the very same reasons. MartinDK 08:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  They'll come later. Let's get rid of all of these lists of idioms first, there's still another 20 to go. MER-C 09:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I believe that summary deletion was the incorrect action to take for the (A) article, and a suitable period of time should have been allowed for a transwiki to take place - preferably by placing a notice on the article "freezing" it and requiring transwiki by a particular date. There are editors still contributing to these articles, and I think it is simply rude to delete the articles from under them, so to speak. Since the principle of removal from Wikipedia has been agreed in the AfD debate for the (A) article, there is no argument to keep the others - that is obvious. I would ask that the good faith contributions of many editors is not simply trashed. WLD 08:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment You are free to ask any admin if he/she would put a copy of any deleted article as a subpage of your userpage. As long as the article is not offensive etc. There is no problem with that. You can work on it from there then. MartinDK 09:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  Anyone can request userspace undeletion for transwikiing. As for yanking the articles out from under the editors, they have five days to save their own copy, and for the A one they had more. MER-C 09:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

  • • I thought that at one time it was actually policy for people not to save deleted articles in their userspace, otherwise I would have preserved a copy for a transwiki operation. It's possible I misunderstood, or the rules changed. Anyway, would a kind admin please undelete List of idioms in the English language (A) and drop it as a sub-page into User:West London Dweller/Idioms. I'll copy the rest, or if whichever friendly Admin does the job, they could copy all the pages as subpages of the above and speedy delete the rest. Thanks. I'll leave a stub in List of idioms in the English language explaining that the content of the article is being moved to Wiktionary without pointing out it is in my userspace, and transwiki as and when I get time. WLD 14:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Would you want the rest to be userfied to your userspace instead of being subject to deletion debates? MER-C 04:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes - but I don't own the articles - I can't speak for all other editors. What I'll probably do is take a copy while the AfD debates are going on, and let the proper process take its course. Summarily deleting them and putting them all in my userspace doesn't seem like proper process to me, convenient as it may be. WLD 09:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• • I userfied it, and if you'd actually read the first eleven words of my closure you could have saved yourself and us all your incivility. ~ trialsanderrors 05:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I didn't understand the first eleven words of your closure notice. I had (<-note past tense) no idea what 'userfy' meant, and my reading was that I would need to ask for info idiom by idiom, when I didn't have a list to refer to - which seemed almost Kafkaesque. Thank-you for putting the entire article in my userspace. I will copy the other articles to the same place, to avoid wasting other people's time, and not participate in further AfDs on these articles. WLD 09:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a fair question to me, see above. If WLD is willing to work on/marshal others to work on transwikiing these, I don't see a problem with userfying them all at once. Breaking them up into separate discussions is useless in any case, except as a test of whether you'll get the same result nominating the same thing for deletion six times. Opabinia regalis 06:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete all, dicdefs. Demiurge 11:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all, and I would like to pre-register delete for the remaining articles in this series, though that's probably not allowed. These are dicdefs, and although interesting, not all accurate. Emeraude 12:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all per above. It's quite a shame though - this list looks vaguely useful/interesting, although it violates wikipedia policies. It looks like someone spent quite a bit of time on it. Ultra-Loser ^{[ T ] [ C ]} 14:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment:The large and unwieldy main article was split into 25 sub-articles recently, so the edit history of the sub-articles A,B,C... do not reflect the level of effort that has gone into this collection. If you look at the edit history of the main article List of idioms in the English language, you will see it is not just someone's work. The article has been in existence since 11 November 2003, and a small amount of content existed before then in other articles. That is not meant to make you change your mind, simply to correct a possible misapprehension. WLD 10:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Change to Speedy delete all. Every definition from this page has made it in to its corresponding article, which means a CSD G12 copyvio. Ultra-Loser ^{[ T ] [ C ]} 14:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Change back to Delete all. I've changed my mind again. The copyvio isn't that blatant, and there is a lot more text and content in the current articles than there are in the linked page. But add copyvio to my list of reasons. Ultra-Loser ^{[ T ] [ C ]} 14:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete allAs dicdefs and as unsourced or original research. I hate folk etymologies, where someone sits down at the keyboard and decides what the history of a word or phrase is based on their own hunch. When no source citation is provided, that is the implied source, and it is wrong as often as not. Then this sometimes incorrect info will get cited by kids in research papers, and prank ones (made up in school one day) will get added, with no basis for judging which should stay and which should go. If each was footnoted to a reliable publiched source and did not violate a copyrighted definition, then such a database would be valuable on one of the Wikiprojects, perhaps Wiktionary. Edison 15:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or transwiki all of them. These idiom list articles are really informative to non-native speakers, and sometimes to native speakers too. As long as they don't contain any neologisms or in-jokes, the content is encyclopedic too. They should be contained in at least some Wikimedia project. JIP | Talk 19:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep/transwiki. It's sad that deletionists have become so impatient that they can't put a transwiki tag on an article and give people a few months to transwiki to the appropriate project. Do people here just not understand the concept of transwiking at all? --- RockMFR 01:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep! There is something really whacky going on here. How can this be considered a valid AfD before the transwiki has been done? --Connel MacKenzie - wikt 17:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment "Transwiki" (like "userfy") is a neologism created a couple of years ago. Many of the people who contribute to Wikipedia in various ways are not computer experts, and if there is an article explaing it a reference to that might be appreciated. All I see are computerspeak jargon loaded pages about backlogs and logs and templates, with no overview. To the naive outsider it would appear that anyone could save a copy of an article and upload it to another Wiki. I suppose the cryptic transwiki process might preserve added context such the edit history comments, or history of AfDs? It is not immediately clear why an article that could be copied and uploaded in a few minutes takes months to "transwiki" and why it has to stay in the mainspace under some type of suspended sentence of deletion, or why editors should have to leave an unencyclopedic article alone and mark their calendar for some unspecified number of months in the future to check back and see if it is gone, or put it on their personal watchlist and see every minute wikilink added, or comma removed, or vandalism added and reverted for several months.Edison 19:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep until properly tranwikied The content represents a lot of research, and while lacking references, is definitely of encyclopedic value IMHO.--Ramdrake 20:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Delete All per above and per discussion in "(A)". Largely original research, and it's a question of opinion as to whether a number of these are actually idioms. Agent 86 20:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Transwiki to Wiktionary per above. --Czj 16:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Keep as disambiguation. El_C 12:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suman

Suman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

no verifiable sources for claim of notability Edison 07:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as hoax or unverifiable. Zero Ghits for suman + "kerala karate". Ohconfucius 07:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, WP:HOAX, WP:V, nonsense. Terence Ong 07:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above, dangerously close to speedy territory. MER-C 07:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep - I request all the editors to take a look into the article now. I have converted that as a disambig page. Basically the word "Suman" is a common Indian surname, and several notable people have it. At the moment I remembered atleast two people and have added their article links (Shekhar Suman, Kabir Suman) to this article. I hope this justifies for a speedy keep. Thanks. - KNM ^Talk 16:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as vanity article and then recreate as a disambiguation page. Hut 8.5 17:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It appears to have been converted to a disambiguation page since the start of the Afd. As nominator I have no wish to delete the disambuation page. Edison 17:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Thanks. Looks like we have a consensus here on not to delete the disambig page, and instead delete as vanity article. I support it, and we can recreate the disambiguation page afresh. - KNM ^Talk 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - Per my above comment. Making room for a new disambig page. - KNM ^Talk 18:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• Close the book on this one - we have a disambiguation page. B.Wind 01:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - its been changed to disambig.Bakaman _Bakatalk 05:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - disambig--D-Boy 06:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy keep - following change to disambiguation page. --Ragib 07:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - as it is changed to a disambiguation page now.--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)