Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 December 10

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy Delete (G11) Also WP:SNOW and creator's statement "KKKZ is an up and coming production company. We are very small as of right now, and we have no works of note that have been published."--Húsönd 04:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KKKZ Productions

KKKZ Productions (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non notable business, User:Aagtbdfoua marked it for speedy, but its been contested by the original author. Brian | (Talk) 00:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete: Spam and non notable at that. Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 00:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: per nom. Rettetast 01:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oops. I mistakenly told Brian that I had marked it as speedy. I had actually marked it as prod. Same difference, this should be speedily deleted as a blatant advert. - Aagtbdfoua 01:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - fails WP:SPAM and WP:CORP. MER-C 02:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable. Hagerman(talk) 02:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Based on all (7) google results being from the official site, fails WP:V, WP:CORP and a few more guidelines mentioned above. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. P.B. Pilhet / Talk 03:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Per Nom, appears to advert, non notable. Navou talk 03:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[edit] Controversy over racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians

Controversy over racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This article violates the policies of this project on so many levels. It’s a quotations farm and this project is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Too many quotes and very small amount of discussion is non-encyclopedic and could be a copyright violation even if citations are included. Also, some things implied in the text are not found in the reference cited if you carefully check. Its topic is inherently pov and right now the article is too heavily focused on the Afrocentric pov. It has been singularly edited by User:Enriquecardova who is more or less intent on proving that Egypt was originally a Black African civilization and that it only later changed its racial makeup [1] [2]. I’m sure other people can come and point to other evidence. If you check out prior versions of this article, you’ll get an entirely different picture. It’s an endless debate and seems inherently pov however you slice it.

I noticed that the article noted the controversy in its title before, so I tried to change it back but he kept edit warring about it, claiming it’s not really a controversy even though the quotes he added to the article are all laced with a controversial tone. How can it not be a controversy, just have a look at the talk page? The article is basically a long polemic that doesn’t add to the encyclopedic value of the project. See “silly debate” comment [3] No respectable encyclopedia has an article about the racial controversy of anything. I think the article should be deleted and some of the information merged with Afrocentrism and the genuine information can be integrated with general articles. Nebkaneil 00:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


  • Keep and use other avenues of dispute resolution This article has an established version history before the current dispute:[4]. The topic does seem to be encyclopedically valid (though of course controversial). I don't see a need to bring the dispute to afd. User:Nebkaneil should try a Request for Comment and perhaps appeal for the involvement of WP:EGYPT members to generate consensus. Another path would be to ask for Peer Review of the article. User:Enriquecardova is an enthusiastic and prolific newcomer to Wikipedia who has made many knowledgeable contributions in his limited time so far. The amount of focus and ambition I've noticed that he brings to articles he's interested in is admirable (and also may be inadvertently a little intimidating for other users). Judging by his Amazon.com reviews and political blog comments, he is also quite opinionated. This is of course fine in itself, though perhaps he should take the time to familiarize himself more with Wikipedia guidelines such as WP:NPOV. While most newcomers aren't that familiar with guidelines at a comparative stage, most newcomers haven't jumped into article editing with so much effort either. Anyway, I don't think this is one for AFD Bwithh 00:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • If it was agreed that the article should be based on an established version and give only an overview about the history, concepts and the people involved in this controversy, then there should not be an attempt to prove one view or the other... Race is not a scientific concept, therefore it's impossible to prove in an objective way what "race" Egyptians were. Nor should it be a lengthy declaration of quotes about whatever findings/facts/claims some editors believe to have to support their position. I still think that this version should be set up for deletion and the legitimate information should go to Ancient Egypt topics. Nebkaneil 02:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

01:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes keep this article. I think the request to delete is just sour grapes by a user who has little to contribute, is upset that his favorite dynastic race theories do not stand up under the data put forward by mainstream scholars on this subject, and is now using administrative measures to kill what he doesnt like. This user's writing style is familar to one I have encountered before, and I believe he is hiding behind this one as a front. But regardless of what bogus user names he or she hides under, his or her assorted claims are baseless. He charges:
Too many quotes------- Such quotes are there for a specific reason. Due to the controversial nature of the subject, it is necessary for readers to determine for themselves exactly what scholars in the field say, rather than read endless unsubstantiated arguments and undergo endless edit wars. Indeed thisi s part and parcel of the topic. It is controversial, and as a result, readers need to know exactly who said what, and where it can be verified.
Copyright violations------ It would be nice if user "Nebkaneil" or whatever current name is being used would provide some evidence. But of course, none is forthcoming. If there are any of these mysterious violations, they can always be corrected.
POV----- This is laughable. In fact the whole article deals with different points of view, and how they stack up against the evidence. We have Afrocentrists, manstream Egyptologists, critics like Mary Leftkowitz, neutrals who want to move away from race in anthropology, and other shades in between. They are discussed in the article.
Article different than before--------- lol. gosh... of course itis different than before. Its called Wikipedia.... and its called adding citations and scholarship. Ina ny event about 90% of the original information before the citations were addedis still there, even the King Tut picture, which by the way, sure looks like a "copyright violation." But I notice user "Nebkaneil" has nothing to say about that.
User Cardova "out to prove" certain things--- Actually, if their is any bias in the article, it is the opposite of what is charged. The bias toward the mainstream view, which sees Egypt as having a range of types, and which Afrocentrics attack as "racist." Indeed this is precisely why it is important to quote- so users get an idea of what is being said by "mainstream" scholars, rather than the common charge of "conspiracy" or "racism" thrown around by people dealing with this topic. As can be seen by quotes from Leftkowtiz and a mainstream Egyptologist like Yurco, the general consensus is that Egypt had a range of types that should not be pigeonholded. But then again, you would never know this if it were'nt for those "citations." Other have a different take, or a different angle. Other disagree. But that is scholarship.
As for redirects------- I requested that the redirector provide substantive reasoning to support the request to redirect rather than blanket statements of "controversy". To date, nothing substantive has been forthcoming, just arbitrary moves.
----------------- I think user "Nebkaneil" or whatever alias he is currently using is related to one user, who was pushing a more "Aryan" point of view. When challenged to provide his data, he could not, but backed off. This is indeed ironic. One thing the article shows is just how bankrupt such "Aryan" points of view are. Bankrupt of both data and clear thinking, his next step is to go the "administrative" route, rather than conduct a robust debate. Following this will be vandalism, and edit wars. Of course, these will simply be reverted or adjusted as needed, and no doubt an assortment of Afrocentric supporters or even 'Aryans" can be rounded up to pile in. It would be nice if people did not have to resort to such vandalism, or bogus "administrative" requests. It might be necessary to request that the article be locked in view of such tactics, since more detailed information is being added in the weeks to come.Enriquecardova 01:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Aiaiaiai, someone open a RFC... Bwithh 01:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but needs better organization.
  • Very weak Keep. and revert to this version per Sandstein. This is more or less a very, very well sourced (and fairly well written) essay or "paper" promoting a POV. There is beyond a shadow of a doubt a wikipedia article in there but it needs to be rewritten for tone something fierce. The title of the article needs to be changed as well. I'm not really seeing way to fix this without an extreme amount of heavy work by those interested. The quotes need to go and be replaced by actual encyclopedic coverage of their topics. This is a quote farm, bad. I just can't quite bring myself to vote delete but my opinion could swing one way or the other with some more (outside) comments and thoughts. NeoFreak 02:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Well referenced, excess quotations can be removed and the remainder of the article could do with some wikification and copyediting for WP:NPOV, but deletion is not the answer. Has encyclopædic value, just needs some work. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but needs some serious clean up. Hagerman(talk) 02:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, notable controversy in all its ridiculosity. - ∅ (∅), 02:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Malomeat 03:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - This needs to be deleted and started from scratch. If this is an encyclopedic topic (which I'm not sure it is), the article as it stands now will never turn into one. Wipe clean, start it again if someone can make sense of this mess without a quotation dump. --Wooty Woot? contribs 03:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Leaving aside the question of the suitability of "quotefarm" in whole or part, as I pointed out above, an established version of this article existed before the recent influx of quotations Bwithh 03:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Then revert and we'll talk. Based on the current status of the article, my opinion is to delete. --Wooty Woot? contribs 03:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Deleting an article means removing its history too, not just its current version Bwithh 04:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but cut wayyyyyy down, or revert to previous better version. Seraphimblade 03:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and clean up to be more encylopedic: fewer quotes and more exposition about what this controversy is/was, which is what the article should be about. Heimstern Läufer 07:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and revert or cleanup to make it readable at least. ← ANAS Talk? 11:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, revert to this older non messed-up version, cleanup from there. This is an editorial issue not suitable for AfD. Sandstein 14:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep too well-sourced to be deleted. TSO1D 15:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per others but needs "major" work. — Seadog 17:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - encyclopedic subject and interersting outside a narrow niche, clearly capable of being put into encyclopedic tone and format and with ample ability to obtain credible verifiable citations on this well-defined subject. AFD is not really the ideal recourse for encyclopedic-capable articles that just happen not to yet have been written according to policies as one would wish. Cleanup, sourcing, neutrality, RFC, and dispute resolution are more appropriate venues. FT2 (Talk | email) 23:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, encyclopedic subject. Take the content dispute to RFC. Mr Stephen 23:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but go through RfC and edit mercilessly to correct the POV and to remove any copyvios in the paragraph long quotes, and to cite without all the cut and paste. This reads like an essay from the period a few years ago when Afrocentric educators tried to push the POV that Clepoatra was black as were all the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs, that the Egyptians used electricity, that they flew around in gliders, and a host of other absurdities aimed at instilling racial pride in minority students in the U.S. . The question of their racial characteristics is encyclopedic, and can be addressed based on paintings in tombs and via physical anthropology based on bone structure, and historically based on the writings of ancient observers. Edison 16:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy delete --Tone 22:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pyrotechnical mine

Pyrotechnical mine (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Not an exact repost, but the article has been created by the same user and deleted in the past. Gray PorpoiseYour wish is my command! 00:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, lack of notability or verifiable sources. hateless 00:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete — lack of notability. Dionyseus 01:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete per CSD G1 and G4. The page is clearly a joke. --Sable232 02:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete - lack of context. So tagged. MER-C 02:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete per Sable232. Hagerman(talk) 02:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect To Pyrotechnics, google shows that they seem to exist, but I can't track down much to make it verifiable, so a redirect would make sense here. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 03:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. P.B. Pilhet / Talk 03:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, little context, no assertion of notability. A redirect to pyrotechnics may make sense. Seraphimblade 03:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete non-encyclopedic, no sources cited and little in content.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 05:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete per nom et al - don't think the redirect would be useful. SkierRMH,08:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • keep, has potential to be a decent article, has a couple of hundred plus hits. At worst make it a redirect to Pyrotechnics instead. Mathmo Talk 08:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Sable232, not a joke, 222 hits on Google. But it is unsourced, unverifiable and there is no assertion of notability. --Majorly 11:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I wasn't saying the subject is a joke, but the previous version of the article was. --Sable232 17:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per the above. ← ANAS Talk? 12:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TSO1D 15:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Firework or Pyrotechnics. --- RockMFR 17:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete per WP:CSD#G5. Author Jsgray1993 (talk • contribs) is clearly sock of previous creator, banned Jsg1993 (talk • contribs). - Fan-1967 21:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[edit] 2028 G Street NW

2028 G Street NW (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Tagged for speedy deletion but buildings are not valid under A7, so AFDing. No Stance Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. No demonstration of notability, no citation of sources. --stephenw32768<talk> 00:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete — NN and no sources. Dionyseus 01:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 02:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per notability. Hagerman(talk) 02:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Appears to be a WP:HOAX[5], and not terribly notable either. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 03:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete NN A7 at best, hoax at worst. SkierRMH,08:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per all what's above. ← ANAS Talk? 12:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not sourced/and not-notable. — Seadog 17:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom ect †he Bread 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, as unsourced, and as a steaming pile. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC) P. S. What the heck is meant by "is repudiated as one of the most haunted areas in Washington, DC?" I'd correct it to "reputed" except that I'm not sure whether it means "is reputed to be" or "is no longer reputed to be." Dpbsmith (talk) 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom Subwayguy 23:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy delete g1, patent nonsense. NawlinWiki 01:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Snake in the crane's shadow

Snake in the crane's shadow (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Complete nonsense. Speedy deletion was contested, goodness knows why. StoptheDatabaseState 01:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete This is utter nonsense. IrishGuy talk 01:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as per above. No question. Shagmaestro 01:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect per nominator's agreement, below. NawlinWiki 02:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Balboa University

Balboa University (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Balboa University does not seem to exist, or at least has not since the 1950s. See talk page for further explanation and links. A google search yielded no results. Shagmaestro 01:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Alliant International University, which seems to be Balboa's successor after several mergers. NawlinWiki 01:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect as per above. I hadn't considered this, as I am a wikin00b! Thanks Shagmaestro 01:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[edit] Joseph Kazer

Joseph Kazer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

WWII soldier who won a Silver Star for bravery in one battle. Is that enough? I don't think so. Article is unsourced. NawlinWiki 01:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete A google search of "Joseph Kazer" only produced mirrored wikipedia articles. Unsourced and marginally-notable. Shagmaestro 01:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The Silver Star is a medal which is awarded to members from all 4 branches of the US military. According to this book by Chris Hedges, during WWII, just one branch, the US Army, awarded roughly 75,000 Silver Stars. This doesn't mean that this guy wasn't heroic (assuming that reliable sources turn up supporting the article) - just that he's not encyclopedically notable. Also, Wikipedia is not a memorial. Bwithh 01:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete nn,and primary contributor is User:Kazer72a, so possible COI Werdan7T @ 02:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - fails WP:V with 4 non-wiki ghits. MER-C 02:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per notability. Hagerman(talk) 02:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not appear to meet WP:BIO, missing multiple non-trivial published sources, also doesn't meet WP:V Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 03:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, not even all Medal of Honor winners stay. --Dhartung | Talk 04:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, Silver Star not enough to establish notability, entire article including this is not sourced in any case. Seraphimblade 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable. ← ANAS Talk? 12:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete If it were in a book, I'd enjoy the passage, but unfortunately, Joseph Kazer doesn't have a place on Wikipedia - JNighthawk 12:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete for notability concerns. TSO1D 15:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I hate sounding like a copy cat but defiantly not notable—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Seadog.M.S (talk • contribs).
  • Delete. Looking beyond issues of notability, the article has a copyright mark at the bottom. Either it's copied from somewhere (and should be deleted), or it was contributed by someone who didn't understand the GFDL. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 17:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hayden Keeling

Hayden Keeling (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

19th century Illinois brickmaker, only claim to notability is that he once hired Abraham Lincoln as his lawyer, and Lincoln advised him to drop his lawsuit. NawlinWiki 01:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete fails WP:BIO Akihabara 01:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Hagerman(talk) 02:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. MER-C 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as failing WP:BIO. Seraphimblade 03:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Drop it per nom. --Dhartung | Talk 04:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, and it doesn't even say if he dropped the bleedin' suit or not! SkierRMH,08:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TSO1D 15:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and WP:bio. — Seadog 17:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Smart mob

Smart mob (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

neologism. no citations, some links at bottom of page don't even use the term "smart mob" Skrewler 01:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kay Bank Studios

Kay Bank Studios (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Insufficient notability given; few ghits Akihabara 01:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Unless it can be further expanded,Merge with Music of Minnesota which already mentions this studio and much of this information under the "Modern music" section. That page even includes a red Wikilink to a "Kay Banks" studio (note the slight difference in names).

[edit] Chakat

Chakat (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

A nearly unintelligible article on a fictional "creature" that seems be something the creator made up in school one day. The article puts forth no creditable claim of notability and, being a amateur construct, has no reliable sources outside the creator's personal website. To be frank I have no idea why this even has an article or why someone thought it would be a good idea to add this to the encyclopedia. After all, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or a free web hosting service to advertise your artwork. NeoFreak 01:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as "furcruft." From what I can tell from an initial Google search, this appears to be related to furry culture, and although this Bernard Doove guy has created a heaping ton of info about it and it fits into some fanfiction Sci-Fi universe, I still don't understand its purpose (or maybe I just don't want to). Maybe this stuff has some merger potential somewhere on Wikipedia, but I'm already too weirded out to search further. As the article stands, however, it does seem to fail WP:NOT per nom. -- Antepenultimate 02:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Changing my vote, please see below. -- Antepenultimate 18:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete, chakats are notable in the furry fandom, but only in the furry fandom. If someone wants to know what a chakat is, they will go to WikiFur. - ∅ (∅), 03:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but rewrite As I've stated on the Talk:Chakat page, If wikipedia is going to provend information on porn stars and obscure comic book characters then I can see no reason to delete such an article. I am unsure of how this article is something that was made up in school one day. HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 03:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: "Honeymane" is a typical chakat name, this user may identify as a chakat. :-) - ∅ (∅), 03:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Commet: Honeymade, have you read the notability guideline I linked? If you have I don't understand how this can be seen as anything but "something made up one day". You're right, Wikipedia is not a place for obscure porn stars, see WP:PORN. If you see pornstars that are featured here that do not meet that criteria then by all means prod or AfD those articles. Most minor comicbook characters are included in their parent comicbook articles or in a list. Those that don't fail WP:FICT. Again, if you see any violations of this feel free to prod or AfD them. Another important feature that distinguishes those aformentioned articles is that they have been published. This, on the other hand, is a pure amateur creation that is being advertised on wikipedia that has no interest to people outside a particular subculture (cruft). The people in that subculture can find this information at other more appropriate places such as the creator's webstie, fansites and dedicated wikis such as WikiFur. Violations of wikipedia policies and those policies' guidelines do not set a precedent for continued violation. I would recommend you review WP:NOT and WP:N. NeoFreak 03:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, no indication why this is a notable word or work of fiction. Seraphimblade 04:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Transwiki to Wikifur for merging, then delete as per above. MER-C 04:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: As the original creator of this text (but not the species) I cite the large amount of independent art and literature that has been created about this species, including this article. [[6]] [[7]] These are independently conceived and written works, and I assure you (as a writer) that the act of creating the two given examples was non-trivial. The fact that you may or may not like the species yourself does not change the fact that hundreds do. The fact that you don't understand why this species (among millions like it) has achieved that level of success is in fact a mark of potential interest to the wider community. ANTIcarrot 04:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The existence of fan fiction on this subject demonstrates a 'cult following' though, which is a criteria for notability. I would also challenge you to name another fictional species which has achieved this level of popularity (or greater) or caused the creation of this amount and quality of work (not of creator origin) without being backed by a major publishing house or broadcasting organization. If you cannot, and no one else can, then that makes the species notable all by itself. ANTIcarrot 14:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Fan fiction isn't a source, period; at least not in terms of any notability guideline I've ever read. We're talking published, independent, reliable sources. Think newspapers, scientific journals, informative television programs, and some web content - but not blogs, and in this case, probably not anything from www.furry.org. -- Antepenultimate 04:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The notability guidelines require the topic (chakats) to be the subject of multiple non trivial works (novels and very expensive art) whose sources (people who created the works) are independent of the subject itself (and its creator). The guidelines go on to say that 'published works' is a very broad category not limited to the examples given. If it was limited to those categories then wikipedia itself (being non published) would be a trivial source- which is blatant nonsense. If you wish to exclude all material that is only published online then you still have to deal with the large amount of paper artwork that has been created on this topic. To my knowledge wikipedia offers no guidence for notabilty of artwork, but the shear quantity and quality produced makes it non trivial. ANTIcarrot 14:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Besides, this isn't a question of whether anyone likes the species, it's about whether or not chakats are notable enough to merit an article in an encyclopedia, which is what this is. - ∅ (∅), 05:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I believe that ANTI's point is; because it is so well known, in a pool of dozens of other fictional species in the Furry Fandom, it is notable. Take the Sergal for example. It's pretty obscure in the fandom, where as, chakatas are not. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 05:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • ...no, seriously, read WP:N. NeoFreak 05:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • explane to me how Noonien Soong is a notable example of a character, when A) the only source it cites is Star Trek TNG, and B) a wiki on star trek which also cites the same episodes. Perhaps that article should also be deleted. Surely Noonien Soong isn't notable outside the Star Trek fandom, and it's only citing works of fiction from one source; I can't see where the news articles are, or other such secondary sources of information are. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 05:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • To quote WP:BIO, which allows for articles about "Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions." In the following list of items to assert notability for an individual of this type is the requirement: "A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following." Note that this is acceptable because it is a character on a long-running, extremely popular television show - not self-published internet fiction. -- Antepenultimate 05:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Perhaps a better place to check is WP:FICT, where Noonien Soong is actually used as an example of a minor character that deserves a separate entry, due to suficient depth. Please note the background of a successful television show as well; this really makes all the difference. If this Chakat race is really as important within furry fandom as claimed, it may be best for you to look for another article at Wikipedia that you could suggest merging a shorter, more concise version of this article into. This is a compromise that I may be able to support. -- Antepenultimate 05:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think Soong deserves his own page either but as I've said past violations are not precedent for this one. Besides if you think that the Chakat's "Stellar Federation" furry fan fiction universe is equatable to Star Trek then we alot bigger issues here. NeoFreak 06:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • First, the Forest tales 16-18 have been published as a book, [[8]] Second, You can not say 'this page has to go' and cite a policy that basically says that such article are allowed. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 06:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Line two on the webpage: Creator Owned Publications Self published, doesn't count. Relevant Amazon hits for "Chakat": Zero. That covers a lot of territory, what with all the Amazon associate used and speciality booksellers. Also, while you're at it, read WP:INN. Tubezone 06:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That's a nice Error 404 you've linked us to, there. whoops, that was temporary. And I'm not going to explain the difference between a long-running television show and somebody's personal webpage again. Start citing reliable, third party sources as outlined in WP:RS if you really feel this article should stay. You should know that Star Trek fanfiction drek gets deleted all the time. You're right to say the fiction guidelines are somewhat loosely followed, and I agree it's gotten out of control. You'll have to forgive me for not wanting it to get worse. -- Antepenultimate 06:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe you are misreading Creator owned publications, I believe it refers to the fact that the writers still own the copyrights to the stories.--HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 07:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Worse still, Fauxpaw Publications seems to be a vanity press... MER-C 07:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to be a vanity press to me... they claim to pay the authors, not the other way around. Small press, certainly, but that's to be expected with a niche genre like this. I'm not convinced the book is enough to make this topic "notable," but given that it seems to be a web-based concept, it could be argued to meet criterion #3 of WP:WEB. Personally, I'd want to see sources. If they're that widespread in fandom, hasn't someone written up an essay about their culture, or something? Anybody reviewed all those stories? Anything? Shimeru 07:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Generally, it seems they pay the authors "in kind" (free copies of the book) or the royalty income, what there is of it, winds up going to pay artists, here's their submission guidelines. As far as I can tell, their only distributor is The Rabbit Valley Comic Shop, zero Amazon hits for Bernard Droove or Fauxpaw. Maybe not a vanity press per se, but should still be considered trivial for notability purposes, you'd practically have to publish in Sanskrit from a cave in Nepal to be much less notable. Tubezone 08:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Added link to independent review of the work to the article.ANTIcarrot 14:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
A furry-fan e-zine (Anthro #6), trivial. Tubezone 19:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree, this shows that it is notable in the furry fandom, and it has reviewed by another source. It's like claiming that a science-fiction fan magezine can not review Star trek and use the review as a citation for an article on star trek. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 22:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor a forum for unsubstantiated opinion. 'Trivial' on what grounds? ANTIcarrot 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Trivial per WP:BK. Anthrozine is even less notable than Publisher's Weekly, and reviews by PW are beneath the notability threshhold. The Forest Tales books don't even have ISBN numbers, let alone LC catalog numbers. I mean, there's stuff that's been published on mimeograph that has an LC catalog number. Equating Forest Tales with Star Trek or Chakats with Noonien Soong for notability purposes is a an absurd non sequitur. Tubezone 04:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Transwiki, at best, to Wikifur. SkierRMH,08:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete or slight merge. I've found myself involved with some of these furry AfDs lately (I'm going back to writing mycology taxa articles soon, I swear), not out of any remote personal interest in the concepts, but rather in the AfD process. At times, material that could meet our standards reaches AfD because the articles don't: they are poorly written, in a genre perceived as "crufty", and little effort is made to appropriately reference or verify the content (even by its supporters!). That said ... I cannot find multiple, independent, non-trivial sources here. There are no shortage of trivial mentions: art categories, furcode references, one-line references in FAQs. The term is well-attested in the print-medium fanzine South Fur Lands, but that is not independent of the creator; the self-published and ultra-minor press material likewise. It is discussed in the webzine Anthro (#6), but that's not enough to support an article. Nevertheless, the term seems to have some cultural currency. Perhaps it can be merged as a brief mention in another article, such as a mention infurry fandom that roleplaying charcters—on which a stubby section already exists—might include "anthropormorphic animals (such as rabbits, foxes, or wolves), mythological creatures (centaurs, dragons, and the like), or fan-created species (including the quadrupedal feline aliens called chakats)". Serpent's Choice 08:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC) -- change in suggestion, see below
  • Delete Chakats already have an article in Wikifur. A mention in a list of fictional furry creatures with a link to Wikifur is enough. There's just a lack of non-trivial, outside of the walled garden of furry-fandom references to this. The ghits count is artificially inflated by "chakat" apparently being a word in Hindi, Malaysian, Japanese, Russian and Shawnee. The article smells like social astroturfing as well. Tubezone 09:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. It's already fleshed out over at WikiFur and isn't notable enough to keep over here. --Brad Beattie (talk) 10:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. As per user Tubezone and BradBeattie. Also I can't help but think that the originator of the article was making up the article as he/she was going along in writing it. There a no verifiable citations/sources and one could just about add anything to it with no one the wiser. --Eqdoktor 11:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Aside from being inaccurate, your thinking is not a good basis for deletion. Citations can and are being added. ANTIcarrot 15:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment The first line of the page you cite states the following: This story uses elements from the Internet role-playing environment FurryMUCK, however it is not intended to be a complete or accurate description of anything actually there. Furry fanfiction != reliable source. Tubezone 17:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a false argument. Pretty much every modern fantasy book on the book shelves contains elements from Lord of the Rings, but that does not make them fanfiction. All writing works that way for all genres. Furry simply tends to be a little more honest about it. The two (story) sources are relevant as they mark the turning point where the chakat setting stopped belonging to its creator and became 'open source'. Information to this effect exists on the chakats den. At that point fanfiction as a term no longer has any relevant meaning. (And point of note, specifying 'furry fanfiction' like that is not needed. Fanfiction is fanfiction. Specifying specific types can sound prejudicial and non-neutral.) ANTIcarrot 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • NOTE: This article was first written (2004) before wikipedia even had guidelines on fiction notability (2005). I'm not sure it's fair to suddenly demand it meets complex guidelines that did not exist at the time 'or else'. Give it another week or two (when people have found time for a major rewrite) and then have another look. ANTIcarrot 15:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment I think this is exactly the kind of article the notability guidelines are meant to address. I don't see any grandfather clause in the guidelines. I am not sure what you think you can come up with in a week or even a month, there isn't going to be a Publisher's Weekly review or an amazing change in the Amazon ranking of its books or author (actually, any Amazon ranking at all would be amazing). Tubezone 19:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If that's true that Chakat is not breaking any rules or policies other then being poorly writen. As I've pointed out, these are not very strong guidelines, Chakats are notable in the fury fandom, just as Nooien Soong is notable in the star trek fandom. If a Fictional engineer in a fictional universe can be an article, so can a fictional creature in a fictional universe. --HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 22:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If and when a Forest Tales' syndicated TV series comes out, I'm sure the issue of the notability of this character will be revisited for a WP article. Tubezone 02:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
There are dozens of articles on wikipedia about non-syndicated Television shows. I feel that you are attempting, on purpose, to misunderstand my example.
To paraphrase NeoFreak: The chakat article has no claim of notability, and does not hae any sources outside the creator's website.
Now, if you replace chakat with Noonien Soong; The Noonien Soong has no claim of notability, and does not have any sources outside of the creator's show.
However, if one reviews the WP:FICT one sees that Noonien Soong is an example of such an article which is allowed.HoneymaneHeghlu meH QaQ jajvam 03:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, ENOUGH. Can that please be the last time the Noonien Soong or Star Trek is mentioned? They have nothing to do with Chakats. As has been said numerous times: inclusion is not an indicator of notability! Please stick to the subject at hand. This conversation is going in circles, and it is going nowhere, because I still don't see reliable, independent third party sources being added to this very-definition-of-fancruft article. I suspect this is because these sources simply do not exist. -- Antepenultimate 03:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
And another thing: Your argument that another article on Wikipedia is just as worthy of deletion as the one in question does absolutely nothing to further your position of Keep. -- Antepenultimate 03:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The guidelines are intend to address the style of such pages, not snuff them out of existence. The current page is inappropriately worded in many respects, but it is unreasonable to expect people to drop everything they are doing and instantly rewrite the article just to make you feel better. As mentioned above there are good reasons for the topic to be of interest for a group larger than the core readers.ANTIcarrot 23:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - as per everyone else who agrees that the Furries have their own wiki for this kind of thing. It's well-written, but it's well-written non-encyclopedic non-factual stuff of minority interest. Pete Fenelon 16:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. — Seadog 17:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, on account that (I think) this already exists on Wikifur. Transwiki if I'm wrong about that. --Dennisthe2 22:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Danny Lilithborne 00:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - much as the character is popular in furry fandom, it's pretty well impossible to source under the guidelines here, and is probably better off at Wikifur. Tony Fox (arf!) 03:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • While normally I'd vote to keep, the people who own the furry fandom and yiff articles (yes those have been WP:OWN for as long as they've existed), refuse to link to this article from their's. There's links from the talk pages of people arguing for the linking. It would be best transwikied to WikiFur, but if that's not possible, then Delete. Anomo 04:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment OK, I think I'm understanding the deeper issues here, (which really don't involve the notability of Chakats for WP), apparently (correct me if I'm wrong) the mainstream furry fans (the folks who like ordinary furry things such as The Lion King and Dogs Playing Poker) aren't too hip on hermaphroditic feline centaurs, whilst the more extreme furry-lifestylers and yiffy crowd don't see Chakats as overtly sexual enough, then apparently there's some personal issues between the "owners" of the articles as well. Thus all the protestations about the notability of Chakats in furry fandom, which really isn't pertinent to this AfD (the question here is solely whether the article meets WP guidelines). Anyway, the Chakat article on Wikifur is pretty much the same as the WP one, so the transwiki-ing is a done deal at this point. Tubezone 08:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Well I think alot of it has to do with the "owners" of this article being upset that their subculture isn't getting the same "recognition" as more mainstream ones. Like Star Trek I guess. This is only the tip of the wikipedia furryberg. Check it out. NeoFreak 08:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Liking The Lion King and Dogs Playing Poker doesn't count as furry fandom. That is normal fandom for modern culture. Loony Toons isn't necessarily furry fandom. Furry fandom is stuff like Inherit the Earth Quest for the Orb game or Taurin Fox's artwork. Anomo 09:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
That is a point of contention and I would wager that most furries would disagree. Check out the Furry fandom article. I think that bringing the Lion King and Looney Toons "into the fold" is really an attempt to make the Furry community more mainstream or more encompassing than it really is but that's just a personal opinion, the argument can be made both ways. NeoFreak 09:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I remember when... alt.furry was a new Usenet newsgroup (yeah, I know, that's ancient history), most of the posts seemed to discuss The Lion King (in particular, that was popular) or similar Disney furries, that's why I mentioned TLK. Dogs Playing Poker was just a lame joke on my part. Haven't paid a lot of attention to furriness from then 'til now. Tubezone 09:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment: you don't need to like the sexual elements of the fandom to be a "extreme furry lifestyler" :-p - ∅ (∅), 18:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Taur, aiming for a compromise. I just spent some time cleaning up and referencing the disaster that was the taur article, and collapsing about a zillion smaller articles into it. I included a brief mention of chakats (which probably do not meet full-article standards, but certainly can hold their own for an acknowledgement in a larger related section). Wikifur is the better place for the in-universe detail, barring notability-standards coverage of the concept at some future time. Serpent's Choice 09:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Kudos: Wow man. I was about to say that article was on my hit list too but you've done some great work to it. It's a million times better. I'm still not sure that the "Chakat" belongs there because that sets an example for anyone that creates a fictional creature or comic book/fan art to add their creation to wikipedia. Still a violation of the WP:NFT notability guideline even though it does not have its own article. I really think this sort of thing is best left to personal webpages and private wikis. NeoFreak 09:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks! It needed ... erm, help. I'm going to have to hit centaur soon, too, as it makes Chiron cry. But as for chakat and the WP:NFT issue... I'm torn. On one hand, as far as fictional creatures go, its certainly not centaur, or even drider. On the other hand, there are a ton of Google hits (conflated with some foreign language issues, admittedly). The material has seen publication in several fanzines (South Fur Lands, Fur Plus at least), and a serial-format (more or less) self-published book that got reviewed by webzine Anthro here. I don't think that's quite enough for an article, but I think its plenty to dodge the NFT bullet in regards to a mention within a larger topic. Serpent's Choice 09:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Changing my vote to redirect per Serpent'sChoice's excellent work on the Taur article. I don't know how happy the furry fanatics are going to be about cutting the article down to one sentence, but that one sentence wraps up about all that is encyclopedic about Chakats, IMO. Perhaps including external links to Wikifur and Doone's website (outside of the references) might not be such a bad idea. Again, nice work. -- Antepenultimate 18:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment: here's one "furry fanatic" who could care less about chakats. - ∅ (∅), 18:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Non-notable fictional species. Edison 16:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • KEEP I feel this article should be kept, as it is as notable as the unicorn and the pegasus. You don't have to be in the furry fandom to enjoy such things, either. SheWolff 18;36, 11 December 2006 (UTC) — SheWolff (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

[edit] Kay Nelson

Kay Nelson (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

I don't think she meets WP:BIO Akihabara 02:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - I concur. MER-C 04:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • One Oscar nom[9], so not quite. Delete. --Dhartung | Talk 04:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Change vote to Neutral, default keep, as I just don't see any sources that can be used to expand the article. It's possible there are historical sources, not online, that could be used. --Dhartung | Talk 09:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral. There's no information here beyond what can be found in the Internet Movie Database, but Nelson was once nominated for an Oscar [10] which would place her above the run of the mill for costume designers, and also did costumes for some other prominent films (Miracle on 34th Street, Gentleman's Agreement). She may qualify under WP:BIO among "other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field". --Metropolitan90 04:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • She appears in a couple en passant mentions in Google Books. One of them is Costume Design in the Movies: An Illustrated Guide to the Work of 157 Great Designers[11]. She is not one of the 157; she did work with three of the 157 (mostly Charles LeMaire), but notability is not transferable. --Dhartung | Talk 06:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Being nominated for an award that has a limited number of nominations, and which is shown on national broadcast TV in prime time, is notable.--Prosfilaes 14:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The first Oscar telecast was in 1953, fyi. --Dhartung | Talk 09:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep per above. — Seadog 17:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep: per above Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 19:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep per the Oscar nomination and the work on an extremely notable film (Miracle on 34th St.). Costume designers are rarely notable, but I think this one might just barely squeak by. A reference in a book (even if she wasn't one of the subjects) adds some verifiability. Xtifr tälk 20:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Award nominee = "notable." --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kay Mousley

Kay Mousley (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

I don't think being an electoral commissioner is notable. The others at the page's link don't have pages on Wikipedia. Akihabara 02:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, doesn't seem notable enough. NawlinWiki 02:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Canley 04:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - only trivial mentions on Google, 1 news ghit, also a trivial mention. MER-C 04:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete no news mention outside the job and her job is simply not significant enough to sustain an article. Does not pass any part of WP:BIO - Peripitus (Talk) 05:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete don't think electoral commissioner per se is a notible position. SkierRMH,08:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. It is hard to have an article on the elections in South Australia without having an article on the person who runs those elections, which is what an electoral commissioner does. The article has references. -- TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 23:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Utterly trivial claim to notability. Rebecca 00:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. She is South Australia's first female Electoral Commissiooner and there are 30 Google News Archives results. [12] The article is referenced which puts her across the line for me. The person above should sign their comment. Oops as should I. Capitalistroadster 01:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • That is perhaps of note. If you'd like the article to be kept, can you please update it to mention this and provide the references so it unambiguously passes WP:BIO for notability. Thanks. Akihabara 02:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Reference added as requested. I can't figure out how to use the referencing system so I have added it manually. Capitalistroadster 08:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm going to have to say Keep, based on the points of the person above me. Could use a little bit of cleanup though. Lankiveil 01:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
  • Definitely keep - per Australian Electoral Commission being an important post, and first female at that. More notable than 90% of bios on Wikipedia. -Patstuarttalk|edits 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barbara Biggs

Barbara Biggs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

I deleted this under CSD A7. The user re-created the page, and added substantially more information (secions 3 and down). What do you all think. No Stance —— Eagle 101 (ask me for help) 02:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep- I think this person is sufficiently noteworthy. Reyk YO! 02:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Possibly notable; I added a refs tag and categorized it. Akihabara 02:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete Disclosure: I have been in extensive dialogue with Barb Biggs on her talk page. The page submitted is an autobiography written by the subject. I think before we can accept this there will need to be many independent sources cited and/or an extensive reduction of the content. I advised her to compile her notability sources and I was intending to consider writing one myself if, after verifying the sources she had a notable and verifiable biography. Alan.ca 06:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep - I'm finding this a very notable person. [13][14][15][16]. If there's a serious vanity issue, I have no problem deleting it to a stub and letting it grow. But definately a notable person. --Oakshade 07:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oakshade, if this is your position, than strip it down to a stub based on referenced material and the AfD debate can continue on the stub article. My may concern is Conflict of Interest at this point. I have been working with Barbara on her talk page and I intend to continue to do so to find material that may be relevant.Alan.ca 07:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Despite the fact that I have been working with Barbara on her talk page, due to this process, I have taken some time to look at the reposted article. I removed all references to articles Barb Biggs wrote as that would clearly be Conflict of Interest. Further, I reformmated the 3 provided citations and removed a great deal of uncited statements. That said, I offer this section of wp:bio for contemplation as I think this is the nature of our debate:

--- The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person.

  • This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries except for the following:
    • Media reprints of the person's autobiography or self-promotional works.
    • Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that just mention the person in passing, telephone directory listings, or simple records of births and deaths.

--- The citations we currently have in the article, two of them are interviews and one is an independent article. The interviews, I am interested to read the thoughts of others. Do we consider interview statements made by the subject reliable sources? Barbara is making some rather controversial statements about the barrister, that I have not seen confirmed by anyone but Barbara herself. If we choose to accept the interviews as reliable sources we may be reprinting something that is not a reliable statement. Lastly we have the "Hollingworth in 'journey of discovery'" article from theage.com.au. The Hollingworth article reads as credible as it is not simply an article, but I personally cannot speak for the reliability of the source. Anyone on that subject have a thought? I have not touched on the book citations, I would like to read your thoughts on these 3 first. Thank you for your patience. Alan.ca 08:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm having trouble understanding your issue, Alan. First of all, she was a sole primary guest of the BBC program Woman's Hour [17] and that's the audio interview (actually, by listening to it, it sound more like a discussion with the host [18]). That she was chosen as the primary guest on a long running popular national radio show is an example of notability in itself. And I would strongly argue that an "inteview" is very different from an "autobiogrpahy". The other two pieces currently in the article certainly aren't "trival coverage" (not just a "mention" or a listing).[19][20] She's the "Primary subject". As almost always, when there's a journalistic piece of somebody, they contain quotes from the subject. Correct me if I'm but, but just because they contain those quotes, you seem to be labeling these as autobiographies. They're not at all. And none of these are "self published works" in any way. ; The Age articles and the BBC interview are not published by this subject. This passes WP:BIO easily. --Oakshade 08:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The point I am raising for discussion is the value of sourcing a statement the subject of the biography made in an interview. I think the idea of independent sourcing relates to remarks others have written that support the article about the subject. When you are citing the subject, even if it's in a national interview, the source is not the interviewer, but the subject themself.Alan.ca 08:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm only dealing with the issue of notability, not exacly verification of the article content. I'm looking at these articles closely and I'm finding a majority of the Nitika Mansingh and Damien Murphy written ones have only a small minority of actual quotes of the subject and are mostly about her rathing than listening to her. I agree that the article content should not be verfied by the actual statements of the sujbect, whether they are from that BBC interview or the written articles, except as written in journalist form that actually cites the subject, ie. "According to Ms. Biggs, when she was 5..." --Oakshade 09:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Keep I am not familiar with the radio show in question, but in the U.S., being the primary guest of a tabloid TV show means very little. Some shows even put on fake guests or coach guests into elaborating their stories. The reputation of the show is very much at issue here. That said, Wikipedia:Biographies of Living Persons requires that any accusations she has made against still-living persons be independently verified, or else that the accusation itself be sufficiently notorious that it has wide press coverage. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    Woman's Hour is very similar to a US NPR show. Think like All Things Considered or Fresh Air but specifically focused on women. You can listen to the audio link and judge for yourself.[21] --Oakshade 16:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I can't seem to read the file, but I accept your word that this is not Jerry Springer. I am still uncomfortable with the idea of naming an accused based only on her say-so, but that is an issue distinct from deletion. Robert A.West (Talk) 05:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Audio files are always iffy. It's realPlayer. Just for information, there are at least 3 non-interview sources in the article now. I still won't argue about content verification (like the accusaions) only being her word without an outside source. --Oakshade 06:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Previous AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/'Barbara Biggs' Alan.ca 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On The Real (forum)

On The Real (forum) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Does not establish notability. -- Ben (talk) 02:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - fails WP:WEB. Almost a speedy. MER-C 02:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: Basketball forum with 1000 users. No outside references. Not very encyclopedic. -- Ben (talk) 02:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Non-notable forum. Nobody has come yet I see. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 04:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as nn web group; haven't even warrented a {{not a ballot}} tag on their nomination! SkierRMH,08:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable IMO. ← ANAS Talk? 12:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable. TSO1D 15:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I'm not sure why this was created, but I'm the owner of the basketball forums. I think the plan was to place a link to an article of ours, not create a page for us. Can I request an immediate removal, please? Realdealbneal 21:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I think you can if you created the article. And it seems like User:Silversword55 has that honor. -- Ben (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Good to hear, thank you for the information. Realdealbneal 21:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delia Kingsley

Delia Kingsley (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Early 20th century teacher whose diary is in the Harvard Library. No other claim to notability. NawlinWiki 02:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. NN. MER-C 02:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Hagerman(talk) 02:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. --Dhartung | Talk 05:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, fails WP:PROF and WP:BIO. SkierRMH,08:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete NN. TSO1D 15:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Enterprise Coaches

New Enterprise Coaches (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

"New Enterprise Coaches is a small coach and bus company". Fails WP:CORP. Contested prod. MER-C 02:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ola Jordan

Ola Jordan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)
Aleksandra Jordan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Non-notable losing reality TV contestant. No indication of notability outside TV shows. Contested prod. MER-C 02:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Hagerman(talk) 02:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak (keep) merge to Aleksandra Jordan, her real name. Being featured in a reality TV show plus a somewhat accomplished professional ballroom dancer may be enough. hateless 03:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: Aleksandra Jordan has been added to this nomination. MER-C 04:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete to both, nn as also-ran in reality TV and also-ran in dance contests. SkierRMH,08:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, NN... or at best merge into the parent show's article. Pete Fenelon 16:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak (keep) merge to Aleksandra Jordan, her real name. She is an exceptionally talented rising star of the dance world. hateless 18:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, doesn't seem to be notable, if she is a rising star then she can have an article when she has risen. Inner Earth 15:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of heteroflexibles

List of heteroflexibles (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Blatant POV fork of List of bisexual people, where this page's creator has been involved in a lengthy edit war. | Mr. Darcy talk 02:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC) |

  • Delete per nom. Hagerman(talk) 02:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Doczilla 03:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nominator - ∅ (∅), 03:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • And because Wikipedia has ten times more lists than we need. - ∅ (∅), 03:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. riana_dzasta 04:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. MER-C 04:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per that second small comment. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 04:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, unnecessary duplication of article as noted in nom. Seraphimblade 06:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete listcruft as a way to end an edit war doesn't justify existence as article. SkierRMH,08:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)</font
  • Delete listcruft (WP:NOT) --Charlesknight 13:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TSO1D 15:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, list of dubious criteria which can be hard to substantiate and will never be complete. —C.Fred (talk) 17:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as POVforking. Do we even need the other page? I can't really see how a list of famous bisexuals serves any real purpose. Wouldn't a category be better? Koweja 22:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, redirect to List of bisexual people and sprotect. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of bisexual people and semiprotect if necessary. I'd be cool with delete too. POV fork. Another problem is that "Heteroflexible" is pretty neologistic. It's not in the dictionary (AHD4). Having gotten drawn into editing List of bisexual people, I've found that for many people it possible in many cases to find decent sources that refer to them using the word "bisexual." I've argued (semi-successfully) that the criterion for list inclusion should be the citation of a reliable source that uses the word "bisexual," rather than Wikipedians' editorial judgement of whether some collection of facts adds up to bisexuality. But I don't think there many people for whom you could find a reliable source that describes them using the word "heteroflexible." I notice that a Google Books search on "heteroflexible" turns up only four entries, none of which uses the word to describe a specific, named person. Heteroflexible is an awfully... flexible word. Would you call Lewis Carroll a "pedoflexible?" Dpbsmith (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per dpbsmith. Danny Lilithborne 00:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above, neologism, POV fork. -Patstuarttalk|edits 08:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above. This is a neologism not in the dictionary, and it inherently invokes POV every time it is used except perhaps in the rare cases of cited people who used the word to identify themselves. Doczilla 09:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as a WP:POVFORK. I don't think a redirect is necessary because the term apears to be a neologism.--Isotope23 14:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep unless those proponing deletion are willing to maintain the subtle distinctions needed for accuracy @ List of bisexual people — Adrian Lamo ·· 22:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, above all because the list includes, and is clearly designed to include, people who are more like homoflexible. There are real, difficult questions about how to handle the List of bisexual people, but this kind of blatant mislabelling makes things worse, not better. —Celithemis 00:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Daniel Wnukowski

Daniel Wnukowski (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Weak Delete Notablity not explained thoroughly. His claim to fame is playing the piano at a few government functions. I'll withdraw the nom if he's done more than that somewhere else. Just H 23:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep Name gets 2500 hits on google and his website shows several CDs. Also, there are already many other wikipedia articles on him in different languages. Joshdboz 00:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Fails WP:V, WP:N. The article needs mutliple non-trivial independent media articles. Surely it shouldn;t be hard to add them to the article for someone as 'notable' as google inists. (And releasing CDs on your own website is not proof of notability, it's just proof he's making a lviving playing music.) The Kinslayer 16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, —Wknight94 (talk) 02:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, non-notable. Hagerman(talk) 02:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete notability not justified in article. Akihabara 03:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 03:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. riana_dzasta 04:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, fails WP:MUSIC, and the article itself doesn't give rationale of notability. SkierRMH,09:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asia Bank N.A.

Asia Bank N.A. (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Minor bank, fails WP:CORP. Delete - crz crztalk 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Hagerman(talk) 02:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. MER-C 04:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom WP:CORP SkierRMH,09:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otter island (fictional)

Otter island (fictional) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Amateur fiction cruft. The article details a fictional world written in-universe that the creator seems to have just made up but Wikipedia is not for things you make up one day. This article has been around for over two years because it is a walled garden. The article is a fan construct so it has no reliable sources or verifiability, makes no claim of notability and seems to be orginal research. Wikipedia is not a web hosting service for people's fictional creations or an indiscriminate collection of information. NeoFreak 02:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Awww, that's so cute! I love it. Unfortunately it doesn't belong here. :-( Delete. - ∅ (∅), 03:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete as per above I can't believe this has been around for 2 and half years and has been looked at and edited by multiple named editors but hasn't been brought to account until now.Bwithh 03:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as.... Mustelidcruft? Tubezone 04:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - seems to have been made up one day, fails WP:V. MER-C 04:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete as per above, esp. Bwithh's comments. SkierRMH,09:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Good god, how this be out there for so long? amateur fiction - delete as OR. --Charlesknight 13:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete-I don't even think TV fictional places deserve an article, let alone this place that nobody has ever heard of. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 14:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. If it was of interest to anyone else there'd be references to it, private mythologies don't cut it here. Pete Fenelon 16:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete dumb. Danny Lilithborne 00:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unlike some of these topics, which simply suffer from poorly written articles that do not attempt to meet WP:V, this seems to stand no chance to do so even if motivated. Serpent's Choice 12:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brightwave Indie

Brightwave Indie (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

I believe this article is vanity. The one external link is to a particular band's webpage. The phrase gets very few google hits. The first one lists only the linked band as being tagged with the label "brightwave indie". best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 02:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Velvet Shadow

Velvet Shadow (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Procedural. Twice-prodded. Concern was notability. Abstain. - crz crztalk 02:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rangi meads

Rangi meads (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Nomination for deletion Fails WP:V. No relevant google or google books hits. Zero Factiva hits. Did not speedy delete as this article does make claim to notability. To me, it reads like it was written in earnest (though maybe I'm just not familiar with Kiwi humour cues), so also bringing it to afd to see if anyone comes up with something more (e.g. if the name has been misspelt) Bwithh 03:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of superhero clichés

List of superhero clichés (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)
  • Delete - Pure OR. Otto4711 03:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Only 2? :) Nah, not very encyclopedic, original research. riana_dzasta 04:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - useless, incomplete unsourced original research and listcruft. MER-C 04:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this would-be listcruft. - ∅ (∅), 05:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: Contents are ultimately quite subjective, in addition to the problems suggested above. Heimstern Läufer 07:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Golly gee Batman, why is this here? SkierRMH,09:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge with List of comic book clichés, which seems to have the same problems with this article - only a lot longer than 2 examples. --Eqdoktor 12:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, that comic book cliches article should go too. It's been nominated before and I can't figure out how to do a 2nd nom. Otto4711 13:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC) Figured it out, the other list is now nominated. Otto4711 14:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete to vague of a standard for inclusion and everything added is original research or from non-notable sources. Koweja 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete more clichecruft. Danny Lilithborne 00:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MIT/Wellesley Toons

MIT/Wellesley Toons (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Nomination for deletion Encyclopedically non-notable student singing group which has a couple of records available through a self-publishing service and has done some touring of other colleges. The first AFD did not involve much discussion. Keep !votes revolved around assertions that 1)Chorallaries have an article too (i.e. the Pokemon defence... I'm dubious that they're encyclopedically notable, but Chorallaries at least can make the claim that they have been somewhat successful in international singing contests), and that 2) bands with smaller fanbases and fewer (self-published?) records had articles too (no specific band articles were offered as examples. Such articles no doubt exist, but should be deleted under WP:MUSIC too).(oh, there was also the assertion in the first AFD that the bulk of WP:MUSIC doesn't apply to Collegiate a cappella groups - to which I go "eh?"). No Wellesley College Senate Bus jokes please, I'm British. Bwithh 03:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. 1st AfD was an aberration - crz crztalk 07:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 07:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete They seem notable but that's got to be my personal bias, and if they actually are, the article fails to assert that. —ShadowHalo 09:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Do not meet WP:MUSIC. If there's general consensus that college groups should be held to a different standard than other musical groups, than WP:MUSIC should be edited to reflect that. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battlestar Columbia

Battlestar Columbia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Nominated for speedy deletion as spam but doesn't meet that speedy criterion, IMO. AFDing to see consensus. No opinion Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 03:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Meh...thought it might have been spam due to the RPG link at the bottom...unsure though. Anyway, still not notable. Gzkn 03:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - smells of fancruft too. Be aware that some of the 810 non-wiki ghits are about the Space Shuttle Columbia as per this Time article. MER-C 04:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Fancruft. —ShadowHalo 06:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: Individual items (weapons, vehicles etc.) from TV series, video games etc. are usually not notable. I don't see any reason why this one is an exception. Heimstern Läufer 07:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Battlestar. All relevant info already is there. Caknuck 08:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect per Caknuck. (The battlestar article contains more specific info on Columbia that this article, actually.) Quack 688 09:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect per Caknuck. A passing reference in the Miniseries is not enough to warrant a full, independent article.-- danntm T C 15:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect I guess, though a deletion might work just as well. TSO1D 15:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete - Fancruft. --Bryson 15:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Unverifiable fancruft. -- IslaySolomon | talk 17:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect into Battlestar, per Caknuck. —C.Fred (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Battlestar. This is trivia, not notable enough for its own article. Doczilla 09:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: A ship mentioned as destroyed in both versions isn't notable, and this page is clearly just badly written excuse to promote someone's RPG. Duggy 1138 13:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect delete it first, then recreate as a redirect to Battlestar. 132.205.93.16 00:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leonard Francolini

Leonard Francolini (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This article was nominated back in February, and the result was no consensus, with one editor volunteering to clean up the article. It has been sitting as a stub with no claim to notability since that time. cholmes75 (chit chat) 04:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete CSD A7. --Daniel Olsen 05:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete - no assertion of notability. So tagged. MER-C 05:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, but not speedily. Articles that have generated a discussion resulting in no consensus (I do realize it was a very short discussion and should have been relisted) should not be tagged for speedy deletion in most cases. theProject 06:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete: I agree with theProject's reasoning, but otherwise this article could fall under both CSD A1 and A7. Heimstern Läufer 07:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete per A7 and It's just two lines with a picture. SkierRMH,09:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KBasic

KBasic (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

A minor software product. Originally an open source product, then with a limited free edition, now entirely commercial, according to the home page linked from the article. I see no reason to keep providing them with free advertising. Delete gadfium 04:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. MER-C 06:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asif Iqbal (Rochester, NY)

Non-notable guy who plans (according to source in 2004) sue U.S. government. Renata 05:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong keep. What the heck? Three seperate articles about the guy are pretty much instant notability. -Amarkov blahedits 05:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to No Fly List#False positives and alleged misuses. Several people considerably more famous than this person have had similar experiences. --Metropolitan90 05:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per above. He is not notable for anything he did, he is simply a statistic. Any article that needs to state "he is notable because..." is not notable. Resolute 08:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Metropolitan90. ← ANAS Talk? 12:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I've added another source with some more information now. -Amarkov blahedits 15:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge, per Metropolitan90. Inner Earth 15:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Metropolitan90RaveenS 22:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hybrid adapter

Hybrid adapter (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

wiki article for non-existent, untested and technically unfeasible object is being linked from other web sites by the author. [22] Clearly original research and/or spam. Athol Mullen 05:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. MER-C 06:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Akihabara 07:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Athol's comments are not true and not objective - as many hybrid adapters have been built and article does reference others work in this field. This article does name the category of devices and the name as has yet to be published somewhere other than the internet -- based on this fact, the article may run afoul of the deletion rulesIhero 15:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The link that you've added since I proposed deletion is completely unrelated to driving a trailer to push the vehicle, which is what the article is about. That 5th wheel setup would fit in the hybrid vehicle articles that already exist. Oh, and the word I was looking for to describe this article is wikiturfing. --Athol Mullen 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. $CJ 00:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge some of the descriptive contents in the genset trailer article. LHOON 10:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The fifth wheel article was added to refute Mr. Athol's technically unfeasible claim -- which has no basis -- and is more like a personal attack. The article clearly has original work -- and to be honest - I did not know you could not include original work/concepts in wikipedia -- for I do it at work all the time in our wikimedia software(a non public version).So I learned something valuable here -- how do I help delete the article, how do I help in the process? Ihero 12:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or merge to an article about hydrid vehicles. Sounds like a great idea, but is pretty much original research, citing only a blog. Wikipedia is not a site for initial publication of gadgets someone thinks up. Build it, get it in Mechanics Illustrated and Popular Science, with TV coverage on CNN, then come back and re-create the article. The article trivializes concerns about the source of the energy, the size and weight of the batteries, the possible instability of pushing a car with a fifth wheel, quick failure of an overloaded motor, the lack of traction, the lack of acceleration, the need to coordinate the bvraking system with the pushing motor, and safety concerns, and presents an idea as an established concept. Edison 17:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep due to bad-faith nomination. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Max Linn

Max Linn (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Totally fails Notability, who IS this guy really? --MinervaSimpson 06:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep: According to this page on the Florida Department of State's website, he finished third (albeit with only 1.9% of the vote) in the Florida gubernatorial election, 2006. Notable. Heimstern Läufer 06:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: For one thing, he was on the ballot for the 2006 Florida governor's race. —tregoweth (talk) 06:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Heimstern Laufer. Seems to pass our notability criteria... Localzuk(talk) 17:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete actually seems not to meet our notability criteria - people elected to major office, yes, but not people who came a very poor third and are not even on one of the two main party tickets. Guy (Help!) 18:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AfD created by a sockpuppet, see here[23] ThuranX 18:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep due to bad-faith nomination. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lynn Harless

Lynn Harless (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable, more pop culture fringe crap. Wikipedia does not need to drown in a cesspool of marginal pop culture mire. Only of interest to 13 year old girls, if that.MinervaSimpson 06:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment I decided to put her up since she was the manager of NSYNC and innosence, plus being Justin Timberlake's mother. I won't vote either way on this (mainly because I created the article), though sory if it doesn't seem to meet the standards here. -WarthogDemon 06:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Further comment and maybe a vote - All issues aside, I actually was beginning to consider putting this up for AfD myself. It did seem to be notable enough at first, though that was partly because I had gotten some information wrong and thought she had slightly more notability than she actually had. So I suppose if I can vote, I'll also go along with delete. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WarthogDemon (talk • contribs).
  • Delete, having famous offspring does not make one notable enough for an article. —tregoweth (talk) 06:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - one step too far removed from notable musicians to pass WP:MUSIC. MER-C 07:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - this person is NN, might be worth a passing mention in articles on Timberlake and the bands she managed. Pete Fenelon 16:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AfD created by a sockpuppet, see here[24] ThuranX 18:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Jihad Against America

Jihad Against America (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

None notable band, top google results include its wikipedia article and the bands myspace Dan027 06:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, but perhaps a redirect to one of our articles on War on Terror may be appropriate. MER-C 06:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nominator. I don't think a redirect seems appropriate either. —ShadowHalo 06:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Martyr this article and bury it wrapped in a pig skin. - ∅ (∅), 22:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep due to bad-faith nomination. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amanda Latona

Amanda Latona (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Apparently more teeny bopper crap. Non-notable, insignificant, total waste of byte space and our resources. --MinervaSimpson 06:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep - member of a notable group --ArmadilloFromHellGateBridge 06:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Insufficient notability provided. Akihabara 07:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - one step too far removed from notable musicians to pass WP:MUSIC. MER-C 07:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Subject has nothing outside of an obscure pop group to warrant inclusion. No AMG bio would signify that the solo career didn't pan out. Caknuck 08:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per MER-C Localzuk(talk) 17:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AfD created by a sockpuppet, see here[25] ThuranX 18:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[edit] Reuben Singh

Reuben Singh (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

It looks like an attack page, but the subject seems to be fairly notable, so I didn't delete it outright under A6. Requesting comment here, but I suggest deletion without prejudice toward recreation. theProject 06:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom (changed again). MER-C 10:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete. THe way I read it, A6 doesnt specify that it applies only to nn subjects; "..Pages that serve no purpose but to disparage their subject.." This meets that criterion, and then some. Delete without prejudice, and do it soon, its a giant WP:BLP violation.Hornplease 08:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Speedy delete as an attack page. So tagged. MER-C 10:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: The attack version of this article was introduced by Tell no lie (talk • contribs) - I have since removed those contributions, no !vote on the article itself. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 10:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep due to bad-faith nomination. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Danay Ferrer

Danay Ferrer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Totally fails Wikipedia notabilty standards. Author spent more time on cute graphics than actual information? You know why? Because there is NO information worth writing about! Delete this tenny bopper garbage post haste. --MinervaSimpson 06:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Simply because something is teeny bopper doesn't make it worthy of deletion. Having said that, is no additional information and notability, so a redirect is probably not worthwhile and I agree delete. Akihabara 07:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - one step too far removed from notable musicians to pass WP:MUSIC. MER-C 07:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Subject has nothing outside of an obscure pop group to warrant inclusion. Caknuck 08:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per MER-C Localzuk(talk) 17:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AfD created by a sockpuppet, see here[26] ThuranX 18:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep due to bad-faith nomimation. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jenny Morris (singer)

Jenny Morris (singer) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

More idiotic teeny bopper pop garbage. Not notable, among other things. The author's continual creation of non-notable unsourced pages on worthless "personalities" borders on trolling.MinervaSimpson 06:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I've fixed this mess and now the AFD points to the correct article. Now we can consider the article that was intended to be nominated. MER-C 07:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete As for Danay Ferrer. Akihabara 07:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Subject has nothing outside of an obscure pop group to warrant inclusion. Caknuck 08:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - But this is an obvious WP:POINT nomination. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - one step too far removed from notable musicians to pass WP:MUSIC. MER-C 10:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Fails WP:MUSIC and there is nothing that could be merged into the group's page either. I don't like how this has came to AFD though... Localzuk(talk) 17:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • redirect to Innosense (band) which is barely notable. JoshuaZ 18:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AfD created by a sockpuppet, see here[27] ThuranX 18:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Temple of Wotan (book)

Temple of Wotan (book) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Prod disputed with reason "I agree that it should probably be deleted but as a "published" book its notability should be reviewed in AfD". Article on author deleted due to lack of notability/attack, no indication why either book or author is notable. Nominating for deletion accordingly. Seraphimblade 06:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete: No assertion of notability. Also, this comes quite close to CSD A1. Heimstern Läufer 07:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete May be notable, but unless evidence is forthcoming it should be removed. Akihabara 07:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 07:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, nn self-published book Dragomiloff 10:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, but cross-reference @ Wotanism. A rather insignificant self-published book which was heavily plagiarized from other sources and then given a neo-nazi spin. - WeniWidiWiki 18:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to a list of Nazi poppycock, deleting it will just make it pop-up again in a week or month or year. Alf photoman 23:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Only the foreward is by Serrano. Also, the book has nothing whatsoever to do with the Order, other than the fact that the (ex)wife of David Lane edited it. This is long after his involvement with the Order. There is no content, and it is unverifiable. One line of text is not an encyclopedia entry.- WeniWidiWiki 21:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ummm, which part about "stub" do you not understand? You know, wikipedia is literally awash with crap such as this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambone, and people are targeting articles useful to the pagan community..... --Tsmollet 23:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Brock

Mike Brock (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

No secondary sources, not notable, vanity. Skrewler 06:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • See also: first nomination.
  • This was found in the first nomination. Procedural listing. MER-C 06:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - non-notable and no claims of notability. - Femmina 10:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - per nom. --61.114.193.19 13:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - per nom. cacophony ◄► 23:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harry's Place

Harry's Place (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

nn vanity alexa 100,000 it was deleted before, somehow it has reappeared. Skrewler 06:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • See also: 1st nomination and second nomination.
  • This was found in the second nomination, which was incorrectly titled as the first. Procedural listing. MER-C 06:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Looking at the history, it was undeleted to userspace, greatly improved, and moved back into the article namespace. But it's still short on notability and reliable sources, aside from a few mentions in the Guardian. delete again. BCoates 07:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Meets WP:WEB. Blog has just been nominated again for 2006 Best Weblog awards (see here). Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 10:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - the number of references listed is impressive, but most of them are links to other non-notable blogs, forums, or internal links to the site itself. Only trivial coverage of the subject by an online newspaper is claimed. Fails WP:WEB. - Femmina 10:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • A comment on that vote: We seem to go around and around on this one. First, someone claims that the press coverage was not sufficient. Then I or others add information showing all the mentions, and put it in the article to prove it does meet WP:WEB. Then everyone agrees that excessive press linking just to prove WP:WEB is no longer needed because the article clearly meets it, and so it is pared down. Then someone nominates for deletion again on the grounds that the articles does not prove that it meets WP:WEB. So, here we go again. All significant mentions, with the page number for you to check in your newspaper library:
      • Nick Cohen, "Saddam's very own party", New Statesman, June 7, 2004, p. 26.
      • Daniel Finkelstein, "Police crack down", The Times, September 15, 2004, p. 2.
      • Nick Cohen, "Left's must-see film", Evening Standard, November 10, 2004, p. 15: "Harry'S Place is a website which struggles to uphold the values of the decent Left".
      • Janet Street-Porter, "Spare us these monuments to vanity", The Independent, December 23, 2004, p. 29.
      • Steven Vass, "Bloggers ready for general election debut", The Herald, April 10, 2005, p. 6.
      • David Aaronovitch, "Lib Dems in the land of wolves", The Guardian, May 3, 2005, p. 5.
      • Rhys Blakely, "The Week on the Web", The Times, May 21, 2005, p. 38.
      • Henry McDonald, "In defence of bigotry: The Religious Hatred Bill will only feed prejudice and lawyers", The Observer, June 12, 2005, p. 27: "On my newly found spiritual home, the sane left, robustly secular, anti-fundamentalist website Harry's Place ..."
      • Daniel Finkelstein, "Politeness in the photocopier queue is why we're losing the War on Terror", The Times, July 13, 2005, p. 18.
      • Rhys Blakely, "Bloggers", The Times, July 16, 2005, p. 40.
      • Nick Cohen, "Cool logic our only weapon against the preachers of hate", Evening Standard, August 9, 2005, p. 15: "The broadcasters can go to the "Harry's Place" website, which has become the meeting place of the antifascist Left."
      • Mary Ann Sieghart, "Fair-weather fan, moi? But it's the perfect way to watch sport", The Times, September 1, 2005, p. 2.
      • "Net profits", The Times, September 17, 2005, p. 38.
      • "Web page: Guardian.co.uk: Top Stories", The Guardian, September 24, 2005, p. 32.
      • "Media Matters", The Observer, October 2, 2005, p. 9.
      • 'Norman Johnson' (pseud.), "Free Radical: Don't pretend Harry's exit is just coincidence", The Guardian, October 8, 2005, p. 29. It should be noted that the Guardian's 'Norman Johnson' column was started as a pastiche of the politics of Harry's Place.
      • Oliver Burkeman, "The new commentariat", The Guardian, November 17, 2005, p. 8: "Harry's Place, the "blog" to which he is now a prolific contributor, has become one focus of Britain's culture of political blogging"
      • "I am... Peter Tatchell", The Independent, January 31, 2006, p. 11.
      • Ed Caesar, "Meet the bloggerati", The Independent, March 20, 2006, p. 10.
      • Catherine Bennett, "What would George Orwell say?", The Guardian, April 13, 2006, p. 5.
      • Catherine Bennett, "Men used to go fishing when they wanted to get away from 'the wife' and swap smutty jokes. Now they take up blogging", The Guardian, June 1, 2006, p. 5.
      • "Blogospheric pressure" (letter from Keith Flett), The Guardian, June 5, 2006, p. 4.
      • "Politicobloggery: A taster's guide to six of the best", The Observer, July 9, 2006, p. 11.
      • Michael Gove, "Hamas house of horror is not for me", The Times, July 26, 2006, p. 7.
      • Michael Gove, "Despite any misgivings we cannot deny Israel the right to defend itself", Sunday Herald, July 30, 2006, p. 9.
    • Now I call that "multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself", what do you call it? Also, it has been twice nominated for best UK blog in the weblog awards, which meets WP:WEB #2. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 11:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment - Maybe your problem is that you insist on keeping too many external links to blogs on the page. Consider replacing them with a link to a page with the above list of pubblications. - Femmina 12:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Most of the links are to articles on Harry's Place which are there to back up the text. The reason there are fewer press links is that they were removed for reasons discussed here. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 12:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Ok, it's more than enough for me. Please do not consider my vote. -- Femmina 13:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
            • Comment The first 5 of these I could look up on the web [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] Are entirely trivial, one-line references, either using it as an example of a blog or as a substitute for a man-on-the-street quote. BCoates 21:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep UK political commentary blog with plenty of coverage (see above). Note that Alexa is a flawed metric for measuring popularity. Catchpole 13:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, Alexa is not relevant site to measure popularity of the web page. People don't like spyware and Alexa toolbar it that kind of a so called tool. I agree with Catchpole. --MaNeMeBasat 16:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - enough references in 'real' media to this blog to make it notable. Pete Fenelon 16:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I was the one who recreated the page, along with User:Dbiv. I thought the decision to delete was based on an improper appreciation of the relevance of Harry's Place in UK political culture. I admit we didn't follow "proper" procedure when going about recreating the page, but as it stands, it is now a well-referenced article about a notable topic. I welcome this AfD as an opportunity to finally clear up lingering questions about the suitability of this article. Peter G Werner 02:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - notable blog, featuring prominent hjournalists in its comments section/readership.--Red Deathy 13:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I'm not particularly keen on articles about blogs, but it is pretty obvious this one meets WP:WEB.--Isotope23 19:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real World/Road Rules Challenge Season 15: Fresh Meat II

Real World/Road Rules Challenge Season 15: Fresh Meat II (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

(Note: the page is located here, and mediawiki does not look kindly upon the slashes in the title). I nominate this article knowing that it may be recreated one day. However, right now, it adds no verifiable, non-obvious information to our encyclopedia. This article, which is about a possible future television season, fails WP:V and WP:NOT. The only ref points ambiguously towards a flash website, which appears to be a recruiting agency. The actual content of the page is as follows: 1. a patent and not helpful observation about the unverifiable title of the season. 2. A table which has no clear meaning. 3. Everything in the table is not sourced, nor could I find any sources. 4. An unsourced trivia section that makes no sense to those that don't watch the show.

Even the forum yields no information. Nor does this search from MTV. Scrolling down to the bottom of this list, TV.com (owned by CNET) does not reveal a single thing. If this page is just guessing about who's going to make the cast for this reality TV show, I also move to delete it under WP:NOT#CBALL. Gracenotes T § 06:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - unsourced crystal balling. I've taken care of the slashes. MER-C 07:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete fails to list a valid source and is rather on the crystal ball side.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 07:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I've heard about casting calls for this, but it's still too early to start an article.-- danntm T C 17:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I believe Fresh Meat 2 was only to be produced if Road Rules 14 was not picked up. Milchama 19:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It has sources on the actual company's site. See "[www.bunim-murray.com]". Anom8trw8 22:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
However, that was before Road Rules 14 was picked up by MTV. Milchama 00:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedily deleted by Crzrussian. MER-C 10:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ed Luistro

Ed Luistro (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

not actual person Jagvar 07:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy delete - CSD A7. Appearing in x number of videos isn't an assertion of notability because those could be home-made. Someone else has tagged the article for CSD G3. Also a possible attack page. MER-C 07:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] James T. Lawrence

James T. Lawrence (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

WP:V, notability - crz crztalk 07:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - unfortunately, fails WP:BIO. Not a media personality, nor did he influence anything notable intellectually. If possible, Merge content from this article into another one (like We Were Soldiers Once...And Young or Vietnam War) without adding superfluous information. Gracenotes T § 07:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: the one work he's listed as having authored doesn't seem particularly notable. Heimstern Läufer 07:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nintek

Nintek (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Fails WP:CORP. This article has been written with the assumed intent of advertising information about the company, and reads as if it has been written by a person working for the company question. While it may be a company, it's activities or operations have had no significant impact on made no significant contribution to the industry in which it resides. Article also lacks significant citations, particularly in relation to financial status and such information could only be known by a company insider. Thewinchester 07:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. As a local, these guys have zero retail presence except on the net. They didn't even advertise in yesterday's West (which has two A3 pages devoted to classified ads for computer stores). Fails WP:CORP absolutely. MER-C 10:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I'm the Primary Author for this article. The company is one of the top 3 online retailers in Australia, and is widely considered to be the top innovator within the IT industry. All financial information is cited in the West Australian article. The company has now been the subject of 5 non-trivial articles regarding their bulk buying project, and is facing increasing industry criticism as a result of their operations. Suggest the article be improved to conform with Wikipedia standards, instead of being deleted. Atchung 02:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Firelement85 11:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy keep. MER-C 10:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dowry

Dowry (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Inaccuries, obvious omissions and serious bias Quintessencecat 07:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)— Quintessencecat (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Obvious keep, if you have an issue with content, take it to that article's talk page. Pascal.Tesson 07:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This AfD was malformed in various ways. I've deduced from the nominator's contribs that this was what he was attempting to achieve, so I've fixed up the syntax and so on. That said, none of the above reasons are deletion rationales - they are in fact reasons for the article to be cleaned up by any and all comers. Thus, keep from me. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep and rewrite, the article is confusing and reads like it was written by someone who's first language is not English. Its talking about Middle Easter customs in the part on Europe and some sentences are not understood by me at all. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 07:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Speedy Keep. The next admin reading this page should take a moment. Hornplease 08:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't give our nominator ideas. MER-C 10:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Kayal Raja Muricken

Kayal Raja Muricken (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Of doubtful notability, unable to find a non-wiki ghit. Also a mess (which I tagged). Akihabara 07:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Hornplease 08:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - fails WP:V. MER-C 10:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Just H 19:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep cleanup not a reason to delete.Bakaman 23:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment You haven't addressed my main point - notability. Why is this notable? Akihabara 02:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kenneth Smith Golf

Kenneth Smith Golf (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Was about to tag db-spam but noticed they are now defunct. Insufficient notability provided. Akihabara 07:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eminent Kaapu

Eminent Kaapu (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

incomprehensible list, primarily NN members, defined as notable -thus inherently pov? - of relatively minor subcaste. Prod removed without comment by user with single edit. Hornplease 07:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Hornplease 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - zero context, unreferenced and unwikified. MER-C 10:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • rename - List of Kaapus.Bakaman 18:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete NN no references, etc. TSO1D 23:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a non-notable website. (aeropagitica) 23:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UniversalExports.net

UniversalExports.net (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

nn website, references/awards seem made up, alexa is around 585,000, very spammy Booshakla 07:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Terrouge

Terrouge (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

nn website/forum, no references, fails wp:web, very crufty and spammy Booshakla 08:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zestha

Zestha (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Does not include origional sources. Just contains words and language. "empty" I nominated for speedy deletion, but a user took off the tag. Bearly541 08:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - I usually would weak keep temples, but this is unsourced, confusing, and without hope of reference. Next time, simply revert. Removal of speedy tags is vandalism. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Iff it was removed by the author, that is. MER-C 10:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 10:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ullas Das

Ullas Das (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

NN author. Prod removed without comment by user with a very few edits, largely in related pages. Bringing it here. for discussion. Hornplease 08:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Captain Obvious

Captain Obvious (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)
  • Keep - Deprodded. A notable enough expression (335,000 Google results when quoted). - Sikon 08:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, there are 172 million hits for "even though", which would make it an even more popular phrase. We don't put an article up for the same reason we shouldn't here - there's no encyclopedic content. -Joshuapaquin 06:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Very weak keep - Lack of sources is a concern, however, this is a very popular term, one used (as a character) in the syndicated comic strip Non Sequitur as well (edit: actually, it's Obviousman, but a clear parody). It is difficult to properly source phrases, so my opinion is to weak keep this one, but clean it up. Wookieepedia is not a RS. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It - I just came to this article to find out what Captain Obvious was - if it had been deleted I wouldn't have found out! I vote for "Keep It" - it's doing nobody any harm existing! ~~MB
If we moved it to Wiktionary, you'd still be able to find out its meaning. But there's no chance that this will ever be a decent-quality article. -Joshuapaquin 06:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or transwiki. It would fit better in wiktionary than wikipedia; it's not encyclopedic and hints of neologism. Deltopia 18:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - utterly unreferenced OR dictionary definition. Proto::► 19:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Perhaps appropriate for Wiktionary, but there is zero chance that this article will ever be encyclopedic in nature. -Joshuapaquin 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not encyclopedic, not even good for a dictionary. TSO1D 23:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep per Wooty. Danny Lilithborne 00:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete Neologism. Anomo 04:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Neologism is not a speedy criterion. --Wooty Woot? contribs 04:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete nonencyclopedic term that barely qualifies as a neologism. Doczilla 09:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Well known term with lots of opportunity for expansion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep or transwiki to wiktionary. Aside from very common usage, Captain obvious is defined in the 2005 print edition of Urban Dictionary, which seems like a reliable source to me.[33] schi talk 17:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep This is a well-known term, it's not a neologism. However, there are some concerns about its encyclopedic worth, so this explains my reasoning. --SunStar Nettalk 17:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli Palestinian Union

Israeli Palestinian Union (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Uncitedable, non-notable as article, possibly merits a mention in Binational solution but it seems to be an idea floated by one guy -see only cite I could find, plus another attacking the idea <<-armon->> 09:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magia (song)

Magia (song) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

I'm a bit mixed on this one. According to the guideline at WP:SINGLE, if a song meets one of the criteria, "it may border on notability". This may meet the seventh, "has been the subject of a music video that played on a major music network". There was a music video (I've seen screenshots here, but there's not much information about it, and I don't know if it was played on a major music network or not. Plus, the guideline is still only proposed. ShadowHalo 09:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep as a single by a very well known pop star. Removing it merely places a blank spot on her discography, which makes little sense, and there's plenty of opportunity for expansion. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. DS 15:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kwilasz

Neologism, 0 relevant ghits SkierRMH 09:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Relusion

Relusion (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Neologism, used by one person in new book, 1 relevant ghit SkierRMH 09:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - Yet Another Worthless Neologism (YAWN), nn neologism. MER-C 11:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nominator. James086Talk | Contribs 11:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete' Neologism. TSO1D 23:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:YAWN (sounds like a good redirect!) Danny Lilithborne 00:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

KEEP - when theory of relativity came out we should have deleted it because it was only used by one person! come on, its an original word therefore keep it, why not? if u dont like it dont read the article, the bigger wiki is the better.

[edit] Trevor Marshall

Trevor Marshall (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This article about Trevor Marshall needs to be removed. He is a scientist who is currently working on a hypothesis that has not been embraced by peer based review. I feel that he or someone close to hime is trying to push his case using wikipedia.
1. WP:NOT#OR
2. WP:NOT#SOAP
Also refer to Talk:sarcoidosis
The following sources have been critical of Trevor Marshall: [[35]](Authoritative BMJ source) [[36]]
His own websites, including a resume are: [[37]] [[38]] Note the similarity to the discussed Wikipedia entry
A man with two or three PubMed publications should not be on Wikipedia. Savisha 09:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The user already has his user-site on wikipedia on which he argues his hypothesis. It can be found on User:Trevmar.--Savisha 09:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - OR at its best, vanity at its worst. Delete as nn. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 11:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Firelement85 11:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. The more poorly understood the condition, the more odd hypotheses and unproven treatments arise. If the treatments are barely notable, the inventor is even less so. JFW | T@lk 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to detract slightly from the apparent consensus. Please note that I have no affiliation with the above person, and had never heard of him prior to this morning. However, upon reviewing his recent publication list, I feel that Savisha's comment, though well-intended, is misleading: "A man with two or three PubMed publications...". More important is the fact that he has published in two of the five most prominant medical journals that exist, mainly the CMAJ and The Lancet, and thus, in my opinion, is entitled to a brief article that is neutral in nature and adequately presents both sides of whichever controversal hypothesis he argues. --JE.at.UWOU|T 17:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I need to say that I have no personal issue with that man. However I do have a problem with him advertising his methods on Wikipedia - He and his colleauge have tried to include the treatment (for which he has no accepted publication not to speak of a randomised controlled trial) in the article for Sarcoidosis. The two publications you are referring to are both short responses to articles, they are not true publications.--Savisha 17:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This appears to be a content dispute about a researcher whose notability is established. Saying "He is wrong" is not a good basis for deletion. Go and edit boldly or do RfC. Edison 17:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not saying he is wrong. He has not published anything important to be notable. And what is clear, is that his treatment, which he is so proud of has not been proven scientifically by Trials.--Savisha 17:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't sure that I really wanted to get involved in this, but in my dealings with this individual I did do a PubMed search (which I have pasted below). You can clearly see that the "papers" published in CMAJ and the Lancet are not papers but are, in fact, author replies (i.e. usually disagreement with what the authors of the papers did publish).

  1. Trevor Marshall. Are statins analogues of vitamin D? Lancet. 2006 Oct 7;368(9543):1234; author reply 1235. No abstract available. PMID: 17027719
  2. Marshall TG, Lee RE, Marshall FE. Common angiotensin receptor blockers may directly modulate the immune system via VDR, PPAR and CCR2b. Theor Biol Med Model. 2006 Jan 10;3:1. PMID: 16403216
  3. Marshall TG, Marshall FE.Sarcoidosis succumbs to antibiotics--implications for autoimmune disease. Autoimmun Rev. 2004 Jun;3(4):295-300. Review. PMID: 15246025
  4. Marshall TG. Puzzling vitamin D results. CMAJ. 2002 Oct 15;167(8):849; author reply 849-50. No abstract available. PMID: 12406940
So in reality that is just two papers, and one of these is in a highly specialized journal. I disagree with the inclusion of his aggrandizing, soapbox type article, and I do not think that he is anymore notable as a scientist than thousands of other people. Delete Just my $0.02.--DO11.10 17:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected (and slightly embarrased:) in my (premature) statement that he had published the papers in CMAJ and The Lancet. I suppose this is what I get for trying to edit on wikipedia during exam time! Anyway, if it can be established that he has insignificant notoriety then I say delete it. I would be in favour of adding a section on either sarcodiosis or vitamin D to something to the effect of: Researchers have also proposed blah blah blah treatment, etc (Marshall T et al.) and then site his journal or something. --JE.at.UWOU|T 19:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy close. Please send redirects to WP:RFD instead. MER-C 11:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GXO Magzine

GXO Magzine (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

spelling Fork 09:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy keep - Malformed AfD, nominator blanked the redirect (which would normally be put up for RfD), and "spelling" is not a deletion criterion. Deletion of the misspelled redirect is acceptable, but not through AfD. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Sigma Alpha Mu

Sigma Alpha Mu (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Strong DeleteI came to this page to see if it had sources as the article I found the link in, did not. I propose:

  1. This article does not have Verifiable Content
  2. Is written by members themselves, see the Talk:Sigma_Alpha_Mu and their internal discussion of club literature, therefore it is not a wp:npov and is a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.
  3. Constitutes Original Research, just read it.
  4. Contains no value to wikipedia, in fact may serve to associate subjects of in vivo biographies in a way that may be incorrect. Alan.ca 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Speedy Keep -- Website is located here: http://www.sam.org/. Bearly541 09:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
How can you vote keep, the inclusion of their web site in no way disputes my reasons for nomination? Alan.ca 10:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
My sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha, and Ccson's fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha are edited by members who belong to the fraternity. Also, we site the official website and (in the case of APhiA) history books. Bearly541 10:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you answered the question. Akihabara 11:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but might need some cleanup Skrewler 10:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Please comment on my nomination criteria, this is not a vote, but a debate.Alan.ca 10:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your criteria, but if you're going to AfD this one, you should AfD all the other Frats/Sororities that are on Wikipedia. If not, then this one just needs to be cleaned up (a lot). Skrewler 10:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, let's work together to flag all Frat pages that meet the same criteria for nomination here. When would you like to start?Alan.ca 10:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, changing to Delete Please see User:Timecop/The_war_on_blogs We already have a sort of cult following, perhaps we can expand the project to include frats. Skrewler 10:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I take back what I said about expanding the project, but I thought I'd show you what we've been doing Skrewler 10:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Inclusion of similar is simply not a criterion for keeping an article. Ever. I for one would welcome a systematic AfD for all nn frats. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
You're right about everything except NN. A whole lot of major universities have this fraternity. I'm no notability scholar, but it seems to me that alone would satisfy the criteria. Many, many, google hits.--Tractorkingsfan 10:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This might be the start of a New Frat Patrol Alan.ca 10:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Complete OR. Linkspam, listspam, sounds like a copyvio or copied from somewhere else. If not, this is obvious vanispamcruftisement. --Wooty Woot? contribs 10:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It is unsourced, autobiographical, original research. On a wiki, however, this reality should only serve as an invitation to improve the article. The article is of little value to Wikipedia as is, but considering that the subject appears to be indeed notable, a better article could be. --Tractorkingsfan 10:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This AfD is not a forum to debate deletion policy. It serves as a forum to debate if this article meets the deletion criteria as nominated. Do you have any information that challenges my assertions in the nom? Alan.ca 11:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
As should be clear from my previous two comments, I feel as though the fact that the subject is notable trumps your concerns. I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that all of those things are fixable, where as not being notable is not. If the information is available from a variety of websites, and anyone has access both to this information and to the tools required to add it to this encyclopedia, then why do we need to delete it? I don't know how to say it any better than that. Sure, you listed it for deletion and put forth some criteria. Does that mean that all of us are required to address our comments only to you now, or that those are the only criteria that exist? Trying to control the discussion is not going to help get your point across any more clearly. You made your point, and I thought it was a good one. But you are not addressing what I'm saying, either. --Tractorkingsfan 11:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I cannot comment on what contributions may be made to the article. This AfD will be up for 5 days, if you think the article can be salvaged I suggest you make those changes and then anyone reviewing this AfD will have those contributions to take into consideration.Alan.ca 11:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Fine, suggest away. The fact is that it's presumptuous to assume consensus at this point, when what you're essentially saying is that any article for which sources have not yet been cited or that someone suspects may represent a conflict of interest should be deleted. To address your concerns: Unverifed does not mean unverifiable. "Just read it" is not exactly hard evidence. I've already disputed "no value to wikipedia." And I don't know what "associates subjects of in vivo biographies in a way that may be incorrect" means. I'm done. --Tractorkingsfan 12:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
That was a little out of line, I'm sorry. It is probably autobiography, as I said myself. But it can be sourced and much of it can be verified, and there's nothing slanderous and anything incorrect can be removed. I'll try to work on it myself tomorrow. --Tractorkingsfan 12:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Notability has been established. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 14:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep A hundred-year old fraternity with 69 chapters in major colleges with a fairly long list of notable alumni is notable. Lots of articles need editing, but that doesn't mean they should be summarily deleted.--Prosfilaes 14:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Stating that other deletable articles exists is not a counter point to my assertion that this article does not meet wikipedia guidelines. We have no way of confirming the notability assertion, as there are no cited independent sources. Alan.ca 19:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Organization meets WP:ORG. The omission of sources is easily correctable. I'm not willing to say this nomination was bad faith, but there are certainly articles whose references are in worse shape but are allowed to stand. —C.Fred (talk) 16:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, the article cannot meet any guideline if the statements used to meet that guideline are unsourced. The assertions in the article relate to many biographies of living people and therefore must be verified by independent sources.Alan.ca 19:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It's a national organization, it meets WP:ORG. Sourcing, COI, and phrasing issues can be handled outside of AfD-- danntm T C 19:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • These issues have not been met outside of AfD and that's why I have nominted the article. Alan.ca 19:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Please note, in WP:ORG, it is clearly stated the following cannot be used to establish notability:

1. Internal documents cannot be used as an assertion of notability. However, they can be used as source material for an article.

  • Internal documents can include, reports, newsletters, press releases, magazines and websites published by the organization itself.

2. Student-run newspapers.

  • Comment Okay, how about this website, which not only confirms some information in the article, but also lists a number of notable members of the fraternity and does not appear to be in any way affiliated with the organization? --Tractorkingsfan 23:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That web site states, This is a beta version of NNDB, I would not consider it to be a reliable source. Alan.ca 04:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Further Comment As an initial step, I just axed the entire "fraternity history" paragraph, which was pure advertising/autobiography/unverifiable from start to finish, in my opinion. Now we have more objective material remaining on the page. Much of it is still unsourced. Someone let me know what they think of the website I link to above. If that is usable to establish notability, we can use some of the "internal documents" as sources without a problem. Also tell me if there are any disagreements regarding my removal of that paragraph. Trying to start getting this thing in working order. --Tractorkingsfan 04:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)--
  • How about taking the article to a sand box or someone's talk page until it is ready? In the mean time, we can delete this edition.Alan.ca 04:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • In response to many other comments here, I have decided to include an excerpt from the admin guide to deletion to clarify my perspective on this nomination.Alan.ca 04:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Note also that the three key policies, which warrant that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research, and be written from a neutral point of view are held to be non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether any article violates such policies, and where it is impossible that an article on any topic can exist without breaching these three policies, such policies must again be respected above other opinions. Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators#Rough_consensus

  • To respond to both of your last two comments, I don't know, maybe it could be moved for a while until it's ready; that's not a suggestion I would immediately reject. However, I still lean toward keep, only because I just don't think this article fits even that paragraph you just cited. The article, to a certain extent, violates some of these policies. However, it is certainly not impossible that an article on this topic can exist without breaching these three policies. Ergo, these policies need not be respected above other opinions. The article currently, in certain places (namely the paragraph I attempted to delete), does violate policy, but an article on this topic need not necessarily do so, as notability is established, the internal documents can be used as sources, and non-neutral tone is fairly easy to fix. Thus, according to the logic of the very paragraph you cited, the article does not demand deletion. A better option is repair. --Tractorkingsfan 09:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Notability cannot be established because there are no acceptable sources cited. This is such a key element that many discussions relating to notability point out that some sources that are acceptable otherwise cannot be used to establish notability. Speedy delete makes an exception for asserted notability, but AfD actually requires it to be proven as per the excerpt I included above. I have discussed this with more than one arbcomm member. If the article is notable, find the verifiable sources that are accepted.Alan.ca 09:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Bangalore Quiz Group

The Bangalore Quiz Group (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Contested prod. Idea for merging with Quizzing in India rejected. A quizzing group that is most probably not notable enough to deserve an article on Wikipedia. Google test doesn't establish notability. I could find three news items, all of which were covered in "Metro Plus/Metro News" sections of the newspaper[39][40][41]. Delete as non-notable. The group is already mentioned in the article Quizzing in India. utcursch | talk 10:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete fail WP:CORP. James086Talk | Contribs 11:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 11:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)\
  • Delete per Utcursch. Not enough here for its own article. Risker 16:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cute Reminder

Cute Reminder (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

I have nominated this page for deletion because it seem non-notable, especially when taken in context with Say the Time (AfD discussion), which was linked at Reminder software at the same time. --Mdwyer 05:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nomination and as nominator of Say the Time. JDtalk 10:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - no assertion of notability. MER-C 12:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete pulls up 100 000 ghits [42] (not much for freeware and most are download mirrors) I think it fails WP:SOFTWARE because I can't find any references to it other than places to download it or self promotion. James086Talk | Contribs 12:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keydata Corporation

Keydata Corporation (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Article fails WP:CORP for notability. Akihabara 11:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keygloo

Keygloo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Notability not established, likely spam. Akihabara 11:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Hall of Light

The result was Speedy Delete ZsinjTalk 14:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hall of Light (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable fan site, fails to meet any of the criteria set out at WP:WEB Alexj2002 12:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy delete - no assertion of notability. So tagged. MER-C 12:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete pn, db-spam Akihabara 13:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Starski

Starski (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Once speedied, reborn again, fails WP:NOTE ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 12:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment:
  • 20:39, 9 December 2006 Aecis (Talk | contribs) deleted "Starski" (A7, doesn't meet WP:MUSIC (yet?))
  • 02:56, 29 November 2006 Mindmatrix (Talk | contribs) deleted "Starski" (CSD - A7, G11)
    ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 15:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


  • Delete per above. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 12:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - fails WP:MUSIC. MER-C 12:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, possibly speedy. Non-notable, most of the article is crystalballing. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 15:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete and salt - easily fails WP:MUSIC, and the quality of this article along with the unreferenced material makes it read like an advertisement. // I c e d K o l a 17:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete and Salt per Iced Kola. I'd also look at Izz Thizz and Traxamillion made by the same author (although the latter may not be a candidate for deletion). Danny Lilithborne 00:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Release The Stars

Release The Stars (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Unsourced crystal balling. Pure speculation. "Little more is known of the project". Contested prod. MER-C 12:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Per nom, but put what little content there is on the Rufus Wainwright page. Akihabara 13:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Straight from Wainwright's webpage: "Rufus' next studio album will be titled, 'Release The Stars.'" Is no longer crystal-ballism. --12:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete as a non-notable biography - article discusses notability of something else entirely, not the subject at all. WP:BIO refers. (aeropagitica) 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dave Wride

Dave Wride (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Procedural nomination: originally tagged with nn-bio, but asserts notability. Daveydweeb (chat/review!) 12:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - fails WP:V and WP:BIO with 34 ghits. Doesn't seem to exist... MER-C 12:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete due to failing WP:V and WP:BIO. Hello32020 13:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete - asserts notibility of other people who already have articles (see Fres Oquendo), but not Dave Wride himself. If you look carefully, all claims of notability apply to Fres, not Dave. Knowing a notable person doesn't make him notable. Chovain 22:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep as the AfD was withdrawn by the nominator. (aeropagitica) 22:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Khull(Noor-abad)

Khull(Noor-abad) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Just another non-notable village. Akihabara 12:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep - all villages and towns are notable. There's plenty of precedent to support this (check the archives). MER-C 12:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, AfD withdrawn. I've categorized it. Akihabara 13:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a non-notable biography, WP:BIO refers. (aeropagitica) 22:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lloyd Floyd

Lloyd Floyd (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Fails WP:BIO. Contested prod. MER-C 13:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Fails WP:BIO as noted. I also note that the AfD was removed from the page in bad faith by the contestor. Akihabara 13:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Kevin McVey

Kevin McVey (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Disputed db-bio, I do not believe the article asserts sufficient notability to be included in Wikipedia. Akihabara 13:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as a non-notable biography unless reliable sources can be provided to substantiate the claims of association of this individual with the groups stated in the article. (aeropagitica) 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. --Tone 23:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raggle

Raggle (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable aggregator with only 191 000 ghits [43] (not much for software) and according to Crow-stepped gable it is part of some roofing desgin (upping the hits). The article is also a copy of [44] which is the site's promotional page. James086Talk | Contribs 13:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep, as it is in Gentoo, FreeBSD, and Debian. The popcon stats list it as 9611 out of 61426 [45]. --Karnesky 19:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kicktheoilhabit.org

Kicktheoilhabit.org (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Unsure if this meets WP:WEB. Borderline spam; thought I'd seek others' opinions. Akihabara 13:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Very Weak Delete Getting a mention by Robert Redford on CNN [46] is pretty big achievement. However, the ghits [47][48][49] and the Alexa rank [50] [2,798,549] tell a different story. Google News gets 3 hits for "Kick the oil habit" [51] only one of these [52] seems to refer to the website itself and this is from an affiliated political website. I'm not convinced that "multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself" are going to be forthcoming, but I'm more than ready to reconsider my opinion. -- IslaySolomon | talk 16:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. It doesn't seem notable and looks like spam to me. All I see is a mailing list form and a few news articles. --Sable232 18:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete for now. If it becomes more notable later, we can still recreate the article. --Tone 23:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete for notability concerns. TSO1D 23:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kid Kaos

Kid Kaos (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Only notability asserted relates to ACW. However, all ACW links in the article are dead-ends, and there are no other mentions of Anarchy Championship Wrestling on Wikipedia. Akihabara 14:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Clough

Paul Clough (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

non-notable high-schooler, article based upon WP:CRYSTAL BALL predictions. Nashville Monkey 14:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

From the same stable, Steve Tyrer and Steve Bannister should be considered here as well. None of the subjects has played for St Helens first team yet. My view is that playing first team matches is what counts, but I don't have any strong feelings. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Paul Clough has played first team. Other two are additions to the first team and so fail to meet your protocol for space on Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Londo06 (talk • contribs).
  • Keep Paul Clough, delete the other two, per the author. I userfied Steve Tyrer for the author, so if this is speedied, please userfy Steve Bannister. The likelihood is that they'll be notable sooner or later. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. No prejudice against recreation when this fellow actually plays at a notable enough level and meets WP:BIO. Agent 86 00:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, —Wknight94 (talk) 14:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. St Helens' official bio of Clough [53] states that he "made his Super League debut in July 2005", so he has therefore played professional sport, and qualifies under WP:BIO. Loganberry (Talk) 03:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Randy McKay (trader)

Randy McKay (trader) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Ignoring the trivial (went to school, marine, plays bridge) we are left with having done his job of making money and being mentioned in a book. Is this enough to make him notable? Emeraude 14:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Weak delete He has a few non-Market Wizards hits, but I don't see how he is different to any other trader; there are thousands that make several million dollars. Akihabara 14:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Nonnotable, WP:BIO. Lacks encyclopedic expandability, likely going to be an eternal stub with an amazon.com link. Note: apparently part of a series of similar articles on business people, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#Major article spam? Femto 15:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Fails notability & shallow --BozMo talk 15:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kids on the Block

Kids on the Block (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Likely advertising / spam. Akihabara 14:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep A pretty specific Google news search ("Kids on the Block" puppets) produces 6 distinct news hits from the last 2 months. I don't think finding reliable sources should be too much of a problem. -- IslaySolomon | talk 17:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: Note this is a company, and the guidelines indicate it must have been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. Amongst your links zero, perhaps with slack just one, have this company as the subject; for the rest it is just mentioned in passing in an article whose subject is something else entirely.
  • Delete per nom. --Tone 23:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orneryboy

Orneryboy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Article asserts no notability for this comic that would suggest inclusion under WP:WEB. Brad Beattie (talk) 14:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. --Tone 23:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Anomo 04:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Whiteboard

The Whiteboard (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Article's closest assertion of notability is two published books, but I can't seem to locate them on the comic's website nor on Amazon. As far as I can tell, this comic fails WP:WEB. Brad Beattie (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

books are located at http://www.docsmachine.com/tees/

Would readership statistics be of any help?

Is it relevant to compare the notability of this webcomic to the notability of other comics with Wikipedia entries?

(Author) The direct link to the book sales (above) was temporarily removed from the main page when the latest preorder run was completed. The preorder included some 240 T-shirts and over 450 books, totalling some $14,500 in sales in one month. Over 900 books in total have been sold since Christmas of 2005. DocsMachine 23:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(Author) According to the page stats (Extremetracking link below comic) TWB receives over 110,000 unique visitors per month. DocsMachine 00:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Undecided: It has been around for a while (2002/06/18) and has been mentioned on Websnark on one occasion February 25, 2005, although as a "Zapruder Kestrel". It been published but available through the parent site. The article does read a bit like a press release but that can be fixed. --Aclapton 11:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


According to WP:WEB - Web-specific content[3] is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria: 1. The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper and magazine articles, books, television documentaries, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations.[4] except for the following:

This comic has been reprinted in magazines relating to the sport with circulation numbers of over 1mil. How does one go about verification of this to Wiki, if the magazine does not publish online?--Nitehawk337 15:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Requiring paper sales or references would greatly handicap the ability to list any web-based medium...even Wikipedia...should we delete that, too? (/sarcasm). But seriously, Baen's Universe, SF.com and several other publications are web-based only. There are a number of other web-based comics listed here, including (forex) Schlock Mercenary. I agree the character backgrounds could be a bit less sales-y, but that's an easy fix. There's no direct marketing, and the strip does have a large international readership.209.43.8.126 02:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Michael Z. Williamson

[edit] List of comic book clichés

List of comic book clichés (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Delete - suffers from fatal POV and OR problems. Otto4711 14:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celtic warriors

Celtic warriors (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This page attempts to cover a hugely broad swathe of history in a tiny space with no detail whatsoever. The Celts were a heterogenous group who really can't be lumped together in this way. It's comparable to having an article entitled "Germanic Warriors" starting with the battle of the Teutoberger Wald and ending with the Redcoats. The few salient points the article raises are all covered in Celt anyway. Unless anyone can come up with some way of improving it, it ought to be deleted. Mon Vier 15:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't understand, this seems to be a well-written article about a Welsh Rugby team.--Sandy Scott 16:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I think the nominator has misunderstood the subject of this article, as it has nothing to do with the Celtics and the history of the Celtic language. It's about a Welsh Rugby team, which seems notable enough to have an article. Jayden54 16:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Merge and redirect - Now that this AfD actually makes sense (thanks IslaySolomon!) I'm changing my vote to merge and redirect. The article doesn't really offer a lot of information, and could easily be merged with the Celt article. Jayden54 17:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep This is either a bizarre misunderstanding or today's piece of novelty vandalism. -- IslaySolomon | talk 17:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Ah, I see they mean Celtic warriors. -- IslaySolomon | talk 17:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Right, fixed. -- IslaySolomon | talk 17:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Ah, sorry about that. I have neither qualm nor quibble with the rugby team. Mon Vier 21:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to Celt, per Jayden. —C.Fred (talk) 22:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment all warrior characteristics evidently seem to come from De Bellum Gallicum, of which we know that it was a total propaganda book by a certain Mr. Ceasar against the Gallic. Modern research distances itself from the descriptions contained in the article. Alf photoman 23:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Hernández

Fred Hernández (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)
  • Delete - does not appear to be notable and what is asserted doesn't seem to be verifiable. Also reads a bit addish. Otto4711 15:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - can't find anything in Google, and no sources to show any notability. Jayden54 16:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whismur

Whismur (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable Pokemon. It has never actually been written about outside the anime, card game, and video games, and even in those places, it's not very notable at all. Lack of secondary sources other than Pokedex entries (and Bulbapedia, which hardly counts as more) doesn't help. People who close this as a speedy keep with no discussion will be eaten by Grues. Amarkov blahedits 16:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep Don't the majority of Pokemon show up only in the anime, card game, and video games? As Pokemon wikipedia entries go - this one looks fairly decent. It may be obscure but they can't all be pikachu --Eqdoktor 19:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • But this one is incredibly obscure. Few Pokemon cards for it, none of which are ever actually used, and not even the main subject of an anime episode, like some others. -Amarkov blahedits 21:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete, no reliable sources (just a list of fan sites), no evidence of any real notability. Yes, I'm a aware of WP:POKEMON, but it's high time that flawed bit of circular reasoning was laid to rest. Xtifr tälk 20:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep, why don't you go and nominate every other pokemon article except for pikachu for deletion then?--Ac1983fan 21:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Strawman arguments are bad. Don't make them. -Amarkov blahedits 21:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm just saying... I would guess 99% of the pokemon articles are what you described in your nomination reason. so, it's all delete or this one stays, I would think. (Except, of course, pikachu, probably bulbasaur, and maybe torchic).--Ac1983fan 21:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: Pokémon only exist within the anime, card game, and video games, and this one is just a specific one of the near 500 that currently exist. Just because this one has not appeared in many of either of the media does not mean that it should be deleted. There are Pokémon that have only appeared in two of the three media, but that does not mean that their article should be deleted either. It has been a goal of the WikiProject for Pokémon to get presentable articles on all of the species, and this is one of them. To compare, some relatively non-notable Pokémon articles are good, and at least two articles are featured (these Pokémon are somewhat more prevalent in the metaseries, though).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't deny that most species articles are good, or could become good. Being a member of the Wikiproject, I had better know that. But Whismur simply is never mentioned. -Amarkov blahedits 23:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Whismur#In the animé states Whismur was featured in #315 "A PokéBlock Party," which it is the Pokémon of the Day for that episode. More information on the episode itself is here.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
        • <sarcasm>Oh, yay, it happens to be part of a running joke. That's a very important appearance.</sarcasm> -Amarkov blahedits 00:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Just because it ties into the running gag means nothing. Whismur was the Pokémon that was the focus of the episode, just like Caterpie was the focus of the third episode of Pokémon.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
      • One might count my opinion as biased, considering I'm mostly here to deal with any issues which involve Bulbapedia on the Wikipedia; however, given that this was brought to my attention, I must note that I fail to see a major, significant difference between Whismur's article, which is being considered for deletion, and Weedle's article, which has good article status - particularly when one notes that Weedle is a first-generation Pokémon and Whismur is a third-generation Pokémon, which inevitably leads to three times the amount of reference material on Weedle as on Whismur. Beyond that, the differences can be whittled down to the In other media section - all Pokémon media, of course - fluff, and polish. --Jaydeis 00:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I can't possibly see any good reason in deleting one single Pokemon article out of hundreds. Ignore all rules - if we're going to have 492 of them, we might as well have all 493. --- RockMFR 01:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Further comments - I'm sure we've had dozens, if not hundreds, of similar discussions before. All this seems to be aimed at is changing precedent. I don't quite understand the nominator's motives, but in my opinion nominating individual Pokemon only puts a strain on the deletion system. --- RockMFR 01:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
      • That assumes that one Pokemon's deletion necessarily means that others should be deleted. -Amarkov blahedits 02:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
        • But why delete one article out of the 493? That's ridiculous in itself.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 02:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Because the one article has a reason I can see to delete. I've not seen any other Pokemon as non-notable as this. -Amarkov blahedits 02:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
            • What makes it non-notable? It's been featured in an episode of the anime, it's listed among all of the other ones known at both official and fansites, it's probably been published in one of the various handbooks, just like every other one.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 02:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Well, actually, yes, putting Whismur up for deletion does assume exactly that. What you're arguing is whether or not Whismur is notable enough in and of itself to have an article of its own. If there are grounds enough to justify thus far every Pokémon having a separate article, there should be more than enough grounds to justify group articles. So, if Whismur is not notable enough for a single article, then it should be in a group article; but what's the point of a group article if only Whismur and Whismur alone is in it? Why not, in such a case, just have the article for Whismur? Or do you expect everyone to simply pretend Whismur doesn't exist? Or include it as a footnote on the articles for Loudred and Exploud? Deleting one out of 493 serves no purpose except to make an incomplete set. --Jaydeis 02:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Am I missing something? Why are people assuming that we must write about every Pokemon somewhere in the encyclopedia? -Amarkov blahedits 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Sadly, it's listed in The Official Pokémon Handbook. That means it is notable. It's an officially documented part of the universe. There are cards. It has appeared in the cartoon series. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 02:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC) (signed late)
  • Comment If this one gets deleted based on its AfD nomination criteria, we have grounds for a mass delete of all Pokemon species. Whismur may be obscure to the Pokemon afficiando but then so is Charizard or Bulbasaur to the non-fan; and Pikachu is a complete mystery for most over-60's crowd. if it can fulfill WP:V, it should be a keeper --Eqdoktor 06:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, yeah. I wasn't claiming otherwise. It is incredibly rare that something fulfilling WP:V should be deleted. -Amarkov blahedits 06:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep not knowing much about the subject, the reasons for deletion are a little silly -- where would a Pokemon show up other than in "anime, card game, and video games"? The local Italian restaurant? JPG-GR 07:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ongep 07:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comments: while I don't have a strong feeling about this article per se, I feel that the nominator and nomination have been treated unfairly by many !voters. I have recently seen many AfD's where there were complaints because the nominator had created a mass nomination (nominating multiple related articles at the same time). Now, people are complaining because the nominator has not created a mass nomination. This is unfair, and does not reflect the nomination. This nomination is not a call to delete Whismur and keep all other Pokémons, but a call to delete Whismur, full stop. After this AfD, and depending on the comments and the result, every editor can choose to nominate other articles and/or merge them. Another comment is that it is not right to nominate an article for deletion because it only has in-universe references (only references in the show, card game, ...). However, this is a perfect argument for deletion. If no one had ever written anything out-of-universe about Rhett Butler (a terribly unsourced article for the moment) or Tintin and Snowy (a much better example), it would be perfectly allright to delete these articles, since the only sources then would be primary sources, making Wikipedia a secondary source, when it has to be a tertiary source. Every article that fails WP:V, no matter if it is about something obscure of about a detail of a well-known subject, is a fair candidate for deletion. Now, a good argument to keep this article anyway is to point to the available secondary sources (books, articles about Pokémon: not game manuals and so on though, those are still primary sources), of which there are a few listed. Since I am unable to judge if these books fit the WP:V criteria (independent? reliable?), I am in no position to decide if this AfD should get a delete or a weak keep, but I still wanted to comment on the many people unjustly targeting the nomination instead of targeting the subkect and its merits and faults, as an AfD discussion should do. Fram 13:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The article itself is not bad. It is sourced just like any other article on a particular Pokémon species. In fact, it even passes a notability requirement for a singular Pokémon that the nominator believes it has failed, which i had also brought up. It's not feasible to merge any of these articles into lists due to their length, nor does it make sense that a single species' article be deleted when it could be improved upon, or other matters be dealt with. This character will probably not be mentioned in the New York Times, or other notable news media like some others have, but Whismur is alongside probably 300 similar cases. The man who knows nothing about Pokémon is only going to know Pikachu, but that does not certainly mean only that one species gets an article, while all of the other ones are relegated to lists. All Pokémon species are only going to be mentioned in
    1. The Video Game series
    2. The Anime series
    3. The Card Game
    4. Official Nintendo publications
    5. Unofficial game guides from third party publishers
    6. and Fansites
    • All of which are listed within each article on each species. There are probably another few sources that I have forgotten to mention, but something like Rotom is not going to be spoken about any time soon.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 18:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Agreed, but of the six kind of sources you mention, only the fourth and fifth can be considered WP:V sources, with the fourth having the problem that they aren't independent of the subject, and the fifth that they may not be by reliable, fact-checking publishers and authors (but the latter is a possibility I can't judge). So my only question is if the mentions in these sources (especially source number 5) meet WP:V. If not, the articles have to go, no matter how many fans Pokémon has (but then a merge may be a solution, if more can be said about larger groups of Pokémon). If, on the other hand, these books are good WP:V sources and e.g. Whismur is discussed in them in more detail than just a passing mention, then these articles have every right to stay. The other sources are only of supplementary value: 1, 2 and 3 are primary sources, and 6 is of no value for Wikipedia (no matter how good such sites may be). Fram 19:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Appears in various different media as a character in a massive franchise. WP:PACFAQ. Regards, —Celestianpower háblame 19:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Like everyone's been saying, If we delete this one, then why not delete other Pokemon articles as well? Joiz A. Shmo 20:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Wow; Whismur sure is quiet, but this AfD seems to be approaching sound levels like that of Exploud. We still need this (WP:PACFAQ). TTV|talk|contribs|email 22:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy keep, nominated by a sockpuppet of an indefinitely block user. Contributors do not own their articles, anyway. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frederick Borsch

I am the author. I want it deleted as I do not like the trolls that infest Wikipedia and try to delete your hard work for no reason, such as "chewblock". So I will do it for them. 8daysaweek 16:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy keep. No, you don't get to delete your content just because you don't like trolls. -Amarkov blahedits 16:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy keep, nominated by a sockpuppet of an indefinitely block user. Contributors do not own their articles, anyway. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Rusack

I am the author. I want it deleted as I do not like the trolls that infest Wikipedia and try to delete your hard work for no reason, such as "chewblock". So I will do it for them. 8daysaweek 16:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy keep. No, you don't get to delete your content just because you don't like trolls. -Amarkov blahedits 16:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy keep, nominated by a sockpuppet of an indefinitely block user. Contributors do not own their articles, anyway. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Francis Bloy

I am the author. I want it deleted as I do not like the trolls that infest Wikipedia and try to delete your hard work for no reason, such as "chewblock". So I will do it for them. 8daysaweek 16:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy keep. No, you don't get to delete your content just because you don't like trolls. -Amarkov blahedits 16:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy keep. Bad faith nom by a sockpuppet of an indef-blocked user whose stub at this title was deleted. Article has since been rewritten and significantly expanded by others. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia

As the principal arthur of this page, I want to deleted it because otherwise the trolls would want it deleted. I have been prefectly sivil until these trolls came along. 8daysaweek 16:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy keep, stop doing this. You don't get to delete pages because you don't like trolls. -Amarkov blahedits 16:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Snert

Snert (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

NN neologism that never took off, "deprecated and obsolete on the vast majority of the Internet" according to a recent verion of the article. Prod contested. Percy Snoodle 16:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. Delete Deb 17:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Hägar the Horrible ➥the Epopt 17:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect per above. --Sable232 18:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect per The Epopt. Danny Lilithborne 00:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree with deleting the article. The term IS still used some places, and while I might quibble with parts of the article, I think the basic characterization is correct. Deleting terms just because they are not common would make for a bad reference work. It is exactly the uncommon terms that people need to look up. Whoperson 21:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Disagree Useful as reference even if archaic. --Sjsilverman 02:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a non-notable biography, WP:BIO refers. (aeropagitica) 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lucy Webb

Lucy Webb (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Child actor, similar to previous discussion held over Amber Chadwick. As an infant actor, still closer to a prop than a true actor. Fails the notability test (WP:BIO) accordingly. —C.Fred (talk) 16:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - non-notable and fails WP:BIO. Jayden54 16:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] The Photon Belt

The Photon Belt (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

It's WP:BOLLOCKS. Leibniz 17:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • It is also a bit disappointing. I thought a Photon Belt would be something to accessorize your Tinfoil hat with. Leibniz 20:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete big SHINY bollocks ➥the Epopt 17:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Complete and total bollocks. WP is not the place for pointless myths. --Sable232 18:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral/weak delete If it's been referenced enough, even nonsense is worthy of an article. But if nobody's bothered to publish a "this is nonsense" article about it, it's not worth having a Wikipedia article about. Note that WP:BOLLOCKS is not official WP policy. --Alvestrand 21:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Super Delete FirefoxMan 22:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • New age OR nonsense, delete. - ∅ (∅), 22:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but clearly mark as unscientific statement based on pseudo-religious believes. Alf photoman 23:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with one of those articles about newage hippy apocalypse people that drink kool aid. Anomo 04:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep -- notable woo from the early to mid 1990s. Added a reference to a Cecil Adams column that discusses it. Haikupoet 04:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Single source, the other reference cited is a book sales link from Amazon.com (spam link?) and a debunking page. Fails notability (even for this sort of hokum) and WP:V (what little there is). I too am disappointed that I cannot accessorize this with my tinfoil hat, good entry for WP:BAD --Eqdoktor 06:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Bollocks, pretty undocumented, and not even particularly funny. Goochelaar 12:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Born on the Edge of White Water

Born on the Edge of White Water (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

not notable Deb 17:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, it is a bio of a man with a redlink. Fix that first. --Tone 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International Orange (band)

International Orange (band) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

not even close to WP:MUSIC Deville (Talk) 17:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Basic needs

Basic needs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This personal essay contains no verifiable information. Contested PROD. ➥the Epopt 17:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep Just needs cleaning up and refs. Akihabara 22:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Googling "basic needs" + poverty yields a promising hit list of potential sources. The term does appear, from a quick look, to be used widely in this context. Dina 01:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of PlayStation Portable homebrew applications

List of PlayStation Portable homebrew applications (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Per immediate precedent Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nintendo DS homebrew. The article is mainly a list of external links, which could be speedied per A3, as it mainly consist of one wikilink and many external links. Wikipedia is not a mirror of links. Most of these links could be moved into Modifications and Add-Ons at the Open Directory Project . At worst, the most notable pieces can be included into PlayStation Portable homebrew. -- ReyBrujo 17:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, WP:NOT a web directory. Proto::► 19:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Smerge notable links back into PlayStation Portable homebrew. Archive of links can be found in that article's edit history if needed. --- RockMFR 01:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Smerge - What he said. - !Malomeat 03:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge & ReDirect A smerge is also accecptable.

[edit] Johan Deprez

Johan Deprez (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Notability. The only reason this person got in the news is a major prank he performs. Now Wikipedia is his following target. Luxem 17:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. An anonymous user first tried a speedy delete, unsuccessfully. --Luxem 17:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply by Johan Deprez
For the people who understand Dutch (like Luxem): on the page is a link to articles from 'Krant van West-Vlaanderen' that clearly have Jerome the Travelling Gnome as their main subject. Same goes with the broadcast that Belgian Radio2 will air on 21/12/2006.
Yes, the gnome paté petition is some sort of a prank, so is the travelling gnome prank or the actions of the Gnome Liberation Front. Both of them are listed in Wikipedia without being disputed. I do not understand why Wikipedia should be my next (not following) target if you see that I have corrected several other articles that have nothing to do with pranks or gnomes. While some may question the neutrality of the Johan Deprez article people who actually take the time to read the articles in the 'In the media' section would see that all information in the Wikipedia article is confirmed in said publications/articles/broadcasts.

--Brugopolis 17:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The links in the media section are all to "http://wikipedia.travellinggnome.net/", your own site.
None of the information in the article from the "Krant van West-Vlaanderen" (a provincial -in all meanings of the word- weekly) verifies your biographical data. --Luxem 17:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

For obvious reasons I stored the scans of the original articles on my server. People that follow the link will see that they are in fact scans of the original newspaper articles
I don't really understand you problem with the fact that it's a local newspaper. Do you mean that local newspapers don't check their information, that they don't verify what they write? Other media that covered our Travelling Gnome are national. Take Radio2 for instance. It's even paid for with your taxes!
If you mean by biographical data my place of birth, place of residence and date of birth the articles I link to state my age, place of residence and the city where I was born. The only point of dispute may be my actual date of birth.
--Brugopolis 17:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
No, I mean the information in the "Projects", "How does he come up with it?" and "Memberships" sections. Do you have sources for them, apart from you yourself ? --Luxem 17:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
And actually, yes, the information in "Personal Information" needs a reliable source too, apart from your original research --Luxem 17:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
No, I mean the information in the "Projects", "How does he come up with it?" and "Memberships" sections. Do you have sources for them, apart from you yourself ?
For the part of 'How does he come up with it' I don't. For the memberships I can scan my membership cards but that's not what you mean. My name is featured on Mensa BE's members pages and the other memberships are verifyable if you check with the organisations themselves. Feel free to do so.

Same goes for my projects. If you check 'Het Staatsblad' (published by the Belgian governement) you will see that I did all I claim to have done at MSKK. It has to be verified by a court before it gets published in 'het Stattasblad', did you know that? For Treinfreaks.net I suggest you use the Back Machine

I read on Jean-Marie Dedecker that people call him 'brulaap'. Could you verify that or give the article up for deletion if you can't?
Why do I piss you off all that much? This seems personal... Do I know you? :::::--Brugopolis 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't think we've met, IRL or on the net. You don't "piss me off", either, it's not personal, I just want to keep Wikipedia an encyclopedia.
Could you please thoroughly read WP:OR and WP:V ? You might understand better if you do. --Luxem 18:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. Vote withdrawn. We have verifiability and notability with the newspaper source cited. The article really needs some work, but it's not complete garbage. However, the subject and a friend of the subject wrote the article, so this is very much a vanity article at the moment. Also, take lengthy discussions to the talk page. ZsinjTalk 18:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Regarding this edit summary, verifiability has been achieved. The website every links goes to is just an effort to centralize the sources. While I disagree with this practice, the sources do exist. --ZsinjTalk 19:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm withdrawing all of my above statements to avoid being pressed to the issue by Luxem. I don't see why this particular user is so hard-pressed to get the above article deleted, so I'm not going to bother. I urge the user to assume good faith.ZsinjTalk 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I am actually assuming good faith on the part of Brugopolis. That's why I pressed him to read WP:OR and WP:V. --Luxem 21:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Did you actually read the newspaper articles ? Can you cite the passages where any of the information on Johan Deprez can be found ?
If you can't, which is the case, then how can you say that verifiability isn't an issue ? --Luxem 19:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Information about Johan Deprez in the artcle:
  • Age 28, born in Oostende and residing in Brugge. Name of the store where the gnome was bought and the fact that it was handpainted. Cited as creator of gnome's biography. How he came up with the petition after seeing the paté in shops explained as well. (all this from first column of said article)
  • Name of the shop where gnome was bought, again. (from second scanned paragraph of the artcile)
  • Goal of the prank: taking people along in a fantastic story (third scan of article)
  • Goal of the prank: seeing how far people would go along in the story (from the scan of the Sibby-interview)
Information about Johan Deprez online:
--Brugopolis 16:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You still haven't read WP:OR and WP:V, have you ? --Luxem 16:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Amusing, but not notable. Seems self-promotional. Akihabara 02:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (Can I vote?) I created this article. The irony is, the original one, I flagged for speedy deletion. It was deleted. After doing further research on line, I changed my mind, because the gnome I was very aware of. It is the main reason why I keep asking for lawn gnomes for fathers day. The gnome is notable enough. I think we are all in agreement there. Isn't the man behind the gnome behind the gnome equally important?
I am in the US. I didn't remember it at the time, but Johan has been on the news (I admit, I remembered the gnome more then him - as soon as I saw the pic, I remembered the story). I want to make things clear. I do not know Johan, nor I have ever talked to him before the date the article was created. Turlo Lomon 08:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I don't see how the subject of this article meets WP:BIO Deli nk 20:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect--Tone 23:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ending a sentence with a preposition

This is a bad thing to have a article on. Klooge 17:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Redirecting to Preposition stranding is a measure this problem can easily be solved by. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. The article is pointless, and since nobody is going to be looking for that on here, I see no use in a redirect either. --Sable232 18:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: the fact that the article is here demonstrates that at least one person did look for that information under this title. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to preposition stranding per Fut.Perf. (Although that article might be moved at some point; "Preposition at end" per Fowler would probably be a better title.) Newyorkbrad 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Destructionist

Destructionist (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Unsourced OR essay. Originally complete with copyvio dictionary definitions (from various online dictionaries), which have now been removed. Remaining material seems thoroughly OR. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete. WtF?? --MinervaSimpson 17:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep due to bad-faith nomination. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Veronica Finn

Veronica Finn (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-Notable. See other AfD's for reference. --MinervaSimpson 17:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Delete as non-notable - doesn't meet WP:MUSIC. Nothing that could be salvaged and put into the group's article either. I am a little worried about why these AFD's are being posted though. Localzuk(talk) 17:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This article could accurately have been tagged as either {{db-band}} or as {{db-bio}}. It should not be in {{AfD}}--Anthony.bradbury 18:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AfD created by a sockpuppet, see here[54] ThuranX 18:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Personal reality (Jane Roberts)

Personal reality (Jane Roberts) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

"Seth, a non-physical entity channeled by Jane Roberts, says that each person is basically a "unit of consciousness" (CU), that each CU is a part of "All That Is" (as in the holographic principle)" and so on. Channeling + quantum gravity = cosmic balls. Leibniz 17:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete This is a philosophical treatise which fails under WP:BOLLOCKS--Anthony.bradbury 18:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete OR essay - ∅ (∅), 22:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete religioncruft. Danny Lilithborne 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Non notable FirefoxMan 16:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete to save the blushes of an over-enthusiastic newbie on a mission. Guy (Help!) 14:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Koreate

Koreate (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

The term is non-verifiable, not-notable, and if anything is a neologism. Jeff3000 17:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Author also created List of Korean fabrication in Wikipedia. --Calton | Talk 01:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Agree with Jeff absolutely.--Anthony.bradbury 18:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. I originally tagged this article with {{prod}}. --stephenw32768<user page><talk> 18:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: Neologism with only 366 Google hits, few of which even seem related to the use this article's talking about. Looks to me like it's utter rubbish. Heimstern Läufer 21:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TSO1D 23:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete as obvious axe-grinding (see List of Korean fabrication in Wikipedia, by the same author: "draws up the list of Korean fabrication in Wikipedia. If you are student or using Wikipedia for an academic purpose, you MUST not use the topics below as references, otherwise, humiliate yourself in academic field."). --Calton | Talk 01:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Yikes. Syrthiss 14:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Charlie Style

Charlie Style (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Utterly non-notable porn star. With only 1 film to her credit, fails both WP:BIO and WP:PORN BIO Tabercil 17:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Daytona International Speedway fatalities (AfD subpage)

List of Daytona International Speedway fatalities (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Completely unreferenced listcruft. Salad Days 20:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge or Delete - If references can be given to all of these (or at least the vast majority), it should probably be merged with Daytona International Speedway. Otherwise delete. -WarthogDemon 21:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Delete. Wiki is not a memorial. Ohconfucius 05:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Keep, wikify and reference, the subject of this list is notable, relevant and encyclopedic. I wouldn't object to merging the list into Daytona International Speedway though. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 13:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 17:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Keep Daytona is notable. Deaths are often notable. Deaths at Daytona? Almost certainly notable. It could be merged, but there's a lot of content on that page already. It does need to be wikified though. Mister.Manticore 19:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete the scope of this list is rather arbitrary, limiting to fatalities among drivers and participations at race events. Not to mentioned that the entries are unverified.-- danntm T C 22:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I would wonder why drivers and other participants dying at a race track is an arbitrary condition to impose. It would seem obvious to me that those are the people most likely to die there, and limiting the list to those people just seems the reasonable thing to do. Still, I don't know that anybody would object to adding other deaths, if you can verify them. Are there even any other deaths at the track? And if you're worried about sources, I've added some. Mister.Manticore 02:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with Daytona International Speedway. -- Bpmullins | Talk 22:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and cleanup or merge back into Daytona International Speedway. Most of these deaths were considered notable and verification can be found. Sources need to be added. More significant in the sport's history than most "deaths at XXX Speedway", but not necessarily enough for its own breakout article. Barno 16:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zubin (AfD subpage)

Zubin (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

An interesting article created by Zubinhaghi - his only contribution - but not an encyclopaedia piece. Would be well-suited to a Dictionary of Names, which is where I would expect to find it. Emeraude 19:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Disambig Given the multiple uses of the word, it would make a good disambig page (needs some linking work). SkierRMH,08:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep , expand and add a disambiguation page. I dissagree with the nom as the subject, a common south Asian name, is very encyclpedic. Many names have articles that discuss the orgin, history, background and current usage, such as well known English names like John (name), Elizabeth and William (name). There's no reason to exclude an article on a foreign name for systemic bias reasons or otherwise. --Oakshade 23:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Systemic bias? That's a nasty accusation if I understand the article correctly. Please read my nomination again. My point is that this article is better suited to a Dictionary of Names like the one I have on my bookshelf. Same applies to John, Elizabeth and William. (Elizabeth especially, which has fallen into the obvious trap of becoming a list.) Emeraude
I'll remove the systemic bias speculation as you seem to have issues with all articles about names in general (but I am still troubled that you singled this name, which happens to be non-English, out for deletion). On that point, I guess I have a fundamental disagreement. I find the origins, histories and uses of names very encyclopedic and beyond the scope of definitions in dictionaries. --Oakshade 00:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for that. I didn't, as you say, single out this name (it came up as a random page) because it is non-English. Incidentally, you might notice that my user name is French. I find the origins of names interesting as well, but I still say they belong in a dictionary, not an encyclopaedia, apart from possibly some very important examples that I can't think of. Same goes for surnames. Emeraude 12:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  • To repeat the point I made earlier today in another AfD debate: Wikipedia is not a sourcelist of baby names. Not encyclopedic. Delete. WMMartin 18:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That's an insult to the editors of the articles on names. These aren't lists of "baby names." --Oakshade 20:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Association Society

The Association Society (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Vanity article about non-notable 9-member secret society in one American high school, unmentioned in school's article nor anywhere else on Wikipedia. Primary author's only contributions two days in November all on this article. Gene Nygaard 18:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Not notable and I have a feeling it is a vanity page as well. --Sable232 18:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of schools in Guam

List of schools in Guam (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

An unreferenced list. None of the "entries" here actually link to the articles of schools in Guam, so I have no way of knowing if this list is accurate, or simply a random list of plausible-sounding names of schools. Salad Days 18:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • comment If all the unreferenced articles in WP were deleted, we could certainly diminish WP by tens of thousands of articles. To what benefit? Assuming good faith of the article writers, the article needs improvement, not deletion. Hmains 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • delete on the other hand, the 'Guam Public School system' article appears to be the better one and has references. Hmains 18:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - legitimate, useful list. Merge and redirect to Guam public school system could also be considered but a complete list of schools would include non-public schools. Newyorkbrad 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
You mean merge with Guam Public School System? Salad Days 21:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, sorry, although my first choice is still Keep. Newyorkbrad 22:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge/Redirect to Guam Public School System, the one or two links that don't exist on the target article. As of right now, this article only lists public school, so there is little lost. A redirect will allow this article to be expanded in the future with additional private schools and other school information to justify its existence as a standalone article. At this point, this article adds almost nothing not in the target. Alansohn 21:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - List of Guam schools already includes non-public schools and it belongs to WikiProject Schools. Oddharmonic 03:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Good suggestion. Let's just redirect it to that. Salad Days 05:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Charles Glennon

Michael Charles Glennon (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Delete a violation of WP:LIVING#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy & WP:LIVING#Non-public_figures and does not conform to notability guidelines in WP:BIO. Strothra 18:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep as "non-public" seems inappropriate for someone with as many reliable sources writing about him as there are.[55][56][57] The article should not simply be "he's a paedophile and here's who he molested" but detail the zigs and zags of one of Australia's more notorious sex-abuse cases. --Dhartung | Talk 19:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Note, one of those is a blog. The other two are the exact same article. --Strothra 19:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The blog is from the Poynter Institute, and is a reprint of a Herald-Sun article.
More reprints of contemporary stories: [58][59]
But you've changed your rationale, so let's discuss that. You're arguing a "presumption in favor of privacy" for a clergical child molester:
  • convicted four times of sexual abuse in separate cases (1978, 1991, 1999, and 2003)
  • whose 1987 trial was aborted after a prior restraint violation for which a top radio personality was fined
  • who when faced with new charges, fled to Britain
  • after extradition, was convicted on 26 charges (of which three were later overturned)
  • is now imprisoned
  • may yet stand trial on new charges.
I really don't think that's what the presumption of privacy is for, do you? --Dhartung | Talk 23:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The fact that several blogs repeated one news article does not establish notability as per WP:BIO. --Strothra 00:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
That is not a fair or in any way correct assessment of the sources, which are from The Age, the Herald-Sun, the Courier-Mail, and the Australian Associated Press. multiple independent sources is the wording, not multiple independent events, which seems to be your reading. One event reported by multiple sources is the only reasonable interpretation of the guideline. In any case, here's more:
--Dhartung | Talk 04:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Appears to pass WP::Notability with all the news articles. Akihabara 02:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but improve. Paul Hjul 08:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oscar Lusth

Oscar Lusth (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This is one of the many Survivor contestant articles where the person really isn't notable. Through the many AFD's, it has become clear that, unless the player has won the show, did something really, really notable on the show, or did something notable outside of the show, they really don't deserve an article. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 18:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • KeepDelete as the show is still in progress. If/when he's voted off then nominate, but this is premature Not notable and might as well kill it now. Otto4711 19:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Not sure if this goes into consideration, but he did appear in Playboy's Fourplay, and is noted elsewhere in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_sex_tape

[edit] Daniel Barbosa

Daniel Barbosa (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Delete fails to meet WP:BIO notability guidelines. Strothra 18:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Students in Harry Potter's Year

List and fancruft, admits to being OR, unencyclopaedic. Rory096 18:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

as the recipient of one of those 'advertisements' you are objecting to, I think I ought to be insulted that someone presupposes how I will vote on this, and uses that presumption to disparage another editor. More importantly, I think it very unfortunate that you consider it improper to advise potentially interested parties that a vote for deletion is taking place. For the record, I did not know this article even existed before I was asked to comment. Sandpiper 17:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Er...what? Not OR in the slightest, it is an attempt to properly codify Rowling's list as a proper article for the benefit of readers who, at present, have to dig through other articles in order to get to the information (and who at present can't even find characters such as Moon or Roper at all). I admit that I am never the best at getting an article rolling - so make constructive suggestions of improvement. I am not even going to dignify 'fancruft' with a response. Michaelsanders 18:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Fails Wikipedia is not a directory ("Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics") and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. --DeLarge 18:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Put AfD on Hold - its been up for about 20mins, give it some time RHB 18:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC) (see below)
    • It's the concept that counts. This article doesn't have any hope of becoming encyclopaedic, especially considering things like "Fans who had recorded the documentary then used still images to read the names on the page, and discover the 'unknown students' and other relevant details" and "The information, dating from the early years of the inception of the novels, is dubious," both from the article itself. --Rory096 19:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm so sorry. On the Voldemort page, and others, there was advice saying that the Harry Potter articles needed less 'in-universe', more external information. The information you have taken offence to is well-known - how do you think the classlist reached the internet? Look on the Lexicon if you want to cite it. Your attitude, I am afraid, suggests to me that you have a less-than-adequate working knowledge of Harry Potter (you can't even tell a fan-babbler from an inclusionist? How is that possible?). Would you like me to remove the information? Michaelsanders 19:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, any worthwhile and referenced information can go in Hogwart's or whatever the article is called. Proto::► 19:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with List of characters in the Harry Potter books#Students. Making this a separate article is actually making it harder to find this information by having parts of it in more than one place. --Dhartung | Talk 19:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
How much interest do any of you actually take in the Harry Potter project? Michaelsanders 19:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
How much interest does the Harry Potter project take in Wikipedia policy and guidelines? Proto::► 22:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep or Merge the information itself is reasonably, not overly detailed. It could be improved, and I wouldn't oppose merging to the list suggested above, but deletion seems excessive. Mister.Manticore 19:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and Give Me a Break Merge per Dhartung's suggestion. Please familiarize yourself with the definition of 'list'. This is hardly a list. It has several sections of text and even mentions a source! Your deletionist anti-HP agenda needs to be stopped. John Reaves 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. While this information is interesting to devoted fans of the Harry Potter novels, it is not interesting or important generally. Only the most devoted fans care about characters not even mentioned in canon. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to record everything related to Harry Potter, or every other work of art. This is a general encyclopedia, and such detailed information properly belongs in a Harry Potter encyclopedia. —Seqsea (talk) 21:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Isn't generalising on the lines of 'all people think' weaselwording, and against wikipedia policy? Do you have hard evidence that 'only the most devoted fans care about characters not even mentioned in canon'? No? Then kindly keep it out of this discussion. Your opinion, since it is not remotely representative of what Harry Potter fans, or Harry Potter editors think, is worthless. Michaelsanders 22:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment lets keep this as a discussion about the deletion of this article and nothing else. John Reaves 22:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of characters in the Harry Potter books (which needs extreme copyediting, let's try not to get on that list's case) and merge any information into it, though I think most of it is there. Still, the article is not OR nor a list. I'd also like to repeat my comments from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry Potter characters birthday list: Please watch the icy attitude that has been shown in the exchange between "Harry Potter fans" and "Harry Potter deletionists." Just keep a calm manner, please, it's really upsetting to see a feud over something like this. Incidentally, the merging of a number of small, unsourced articles that don't merit their own space is currently being discussed at the WP Harry Potter. Let's not attack the efficiency of the WP Harry Potter in conforming with policies and guidelines, that borders on bad faith. However, the project's scope should be seen in a wider spectrum, and obviously discussion is not and should not be limited to members of the project or fans of Harry Potter. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 23:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with List of characters in the Harry Potter books#Students (Duane543 03:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC))
  • Merge with 'List of characters'. To address the comments about content above. This is actually a documented incident where the author let slip part of her own notes used to create the books. It is factual, not in any way OR. If the entire series of HP articles was scrapped and re-written from the perspective of literary analysis (which I am not advocating, and anyway something which is currently very difficult because essentially we are stil writing about an unfinished work), this piece ought to be included. It gives insight into the way the book was created. I anticipate that this will expand when the books are finally finished and Rowling will be able to talk about the story development... without being hamstrung as she is now by not revealing the ending. MichaelSanders is quite right that this is the kind of (currently relatively rare) information which ought to included in current HP coverage somewhere. These books have been a literary phenomenon and it is absurd to think that they will not become course material in future (I happen to know they are already included in reading lists for people doing teacher training in the UK). People will be sitting in classes analysing how she developed the storylines.
This information could be merged with 'List of Characters in HP, but that article is already generating an edit warning that it is 37K long, and frankly the logical conclusion from that is that it needs/will need subdividing into separate article. A considerable part of this information is already in 'list of characters', and I would myself prefer to see one article discussing students in the school rather than have this split/repeated in two or more. So I have persuaded myself to argue to merge, but with the possible intent of splitting off a slightly different article in the future. Sandpiper 17:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You say that, "that this is the kind of (currently relatively rare) information which ought to included in current HP coverage somewhere", and I agree with you. The question, however, is not whether it is important information in the context of the HP universe, but whether it merits inclusion in Wikipedia, a general encyclopedia. We are not an encyclopedia of Harry Potter, nor are we an encyclopedia of every detail of every novel--or even every great novel. Our coverage of Moby-Dick, for example, has a short section detailing important characters, with a separate article for the most important one. Our coverage of The Lord of the Rings includes links to articles on characters important enough to be mentioned in a plot synopsis. The point here is not that we should have no information on HP, or that HP is not a good book; rather, that the focus of this article is not in line with the focus of the encyclopedia. When it comes to fiction, a general encyclopedia, such as WP, primarily should document the real-world significance of the novel, criticism, some plot summary, some information about the characters. (See WP:NOT and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction).) —Seqsea (talk) 20:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Have you even looked at the article? Or are you simply concerned with antagonising anyone who does consider Harry Potter relevant to Wikipedia? After all, Wikipedia is limitless: it isn't paper, there are no restrictions on size. We can include anything if enough people agree that it is relevant. So what is your objection to an article which, if anything, should be preferable to you people, since it aims for an external mode of writing - to document what has happened in terms of revelations and development of the novels, as well as what 'Harry does this and that'. So what is your objection? Have any of you actually read the article you object to? Michaelsanders 20:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion, you've taken the view that anyone who disagrees with you hasn't read the article, has no knowledge of HP, and just wants to delete it on the grounds that it's about HP. I don't know how to convince you this is not necessarily the case, but... well, it's not. External with respect to fiction refers to its implications for the "real world", not the idea that the information in the article should come from the real world. That is, our fictional articles should focus on "the impact of HP on contemporary society" not "contemporary society's impact on HP". Again, it's a wonderful analysis of the origins of the HP universe, but it's too detailed for a general encyclopedia, having very little at all to do with the real world outside of HP canon. —Seqsea (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
If you think that, then clearly you haven't read anything of the above discussion either. Sandpiper, Duane543, fpbv65edel: none of these support my desire to keep the article. I have not accused them of not reading the article, nor have I taken offence at their differing stance. Do you know why? It is because they have actually earned my respect in the Harry Potter project. You have not. I take it as a given that they have read the article, the arguments here, and understood them. I take it as understood that we believe in the same basic purposes for wikipedia. We don't always agree, but we know what we're talking about, and we care about making wikipedia the best resource available for all readers - in this particular case, Harry Potter. They have, one way or another, earned my respect, and I hope that I have earned some small modicum of theirs. But you, and those of who displaying an intolerant attitude of "Fiction? NIMBY!", you have not earned my respect at all. You have my deepest contempt. Those of you who have expressed their opinion of the article so disparagingly and ignorantly("fancruft", "OR", "unencyclopedic"), who have taken a high-handed and arrogant attitude (claiming that I am 'advertising' this debate - should editors involved in Harry Potter not be informed?; "only the most devoted fans are interested"; "this article doesn't have any hope of becoming encyclopedic"), who clearly feel that various hard-to-find or paranoid "Hermione is Lily in another dimension" rubbish sites should serve as the main Harry Potter source of information, and that wikipedia should not sully itself with such topics (despite it being a paperless, limitless, encyclopedia for EVERYONE - that includes Harry Potter readers, you know) - you have given me no reason to respect you. If this discussion were taking place amongst only people who are interested in preserving the integrity of the HP articles: I would fight for the article (I feel that it is important) but I would automatically accept that the editors knew what they were talking about, and had the best interests of the project at heart. You give me no such assurance - this deletionist crowd has made its blatant snobbery towards this project clear, has insulted the work we do for wikipedia, and as such is deserving of no respect. You are welcome to prove otherwise, of course, but at the moment I see no reason to view of those contributors here who are not Potter-related as contributing anything other than an obvious distaste and terror of creeping fiction articles. Michaelsanders 22:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I think perhaps things are becoming a little too heated and personal here for the objective of coming to an acceptable decision. But I would address the arguments above that HP articles have become too detailed. I'm afraid I don't buy this (at least in general), and I don't think others should either. Wiki is not paper. There is no point wasting cyberspace including false information, but the fact that it is not paper means we should not worry about including additional information. If editors feel that a disproportionate amount of our limitless space is being spent on fiction, then perhaps those editors should consider ways to increase the content of articles which they feel are proportionately too small, rather than reducing those they feel are too large. The size of HP articles directly reflects the interest aroused by the books. Topicality is an issue which any encyclopedia must take into account when choosing content. But particularly in our case, topicality means that many more people are intereted in writing those articles, and consequently they will be much better developed than others which might in the grand scheme be more important, but are regrettably of no interest to most. In this instance, the content ought to remain on wiki. The issue for me and some of the others I have read above, is where it ought to be placed. This is not necessarily a simple decision, as Hp is a large set of interrelated articles, and I am not certain the suggestion to consolidate into 'List of characters' will be my final word on this, but it seems the best suggestion at present.
Also for the record, HP has already surpassed just being a book, and has become a phenomenon. We will not know until it is finished how well it has been written: it is a puzzle piece littered with loose ends, and its genius will be measured by how well the story is concluded. It has been disparaged by a number of professionals, who have already had to eat their words, and I can see how they came to carelessly dismiss it. But it has already changed the literary scene.Sandpiper 00:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect unique entries to Students in Harry Potter's Year#Students, particularly since the tables list the students in Harry's year, as well as those above and below. This list is somewhat redundant given the existence of the target article, but since it contains a few new students not mentioned there, this article shouldn't simply be deleted: it's certainly appropriate to merge the content (Michael, please note that merging the article means that the original content is still kept, and the residual redirect ensures that you are still acknowledged for your work per GFDL requirements). --Deathphoenix ʕ 00:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
First off: there are plenty of articles which effectively quote other sources verbatim (the Hogwarts Layout recently added in an intro which I think was taken straight from the Lexicon) (this may be irrelevant: looking back, I may have misinterpreted your reference to target article). Second of all: standard procedure is to tag an article as suitable for merging. And then the issue is discussed on the relevant discussion pages between the relevant editors, until a decision is reached. Had that happened, I would have willingly discussed it with all the relevant editors. I might - might - have conceded the issue, provided I could be sure that the relevant information regarding the release of the list and the names on it was preserved and easy to find. But that did not happen. Instead, this pack of fools, who have no interest or understanding or respect for what we do, high-handedly said they should delete it. And considered it appalling that I should want relevant editors involved. It is very hard to think well of them. As for the article itself, I would - reluctantly - agree to merging: providing the information regarding the names, changes, corollary ramifications, and the general circumstances of the release of the list were all preserved and easy to find and read (there are no suitably well-organised articles at present). But only if.
Thirdly, I don't care about being acknowledged for my work. That isn't the point of wikipedia. I do care about protecting information I view as important or under my aegis, and take great offence at perceived prejudices against my edits, but that's another story. I take greater offence at the intolerance of those editors who originally took offence to the article. Michaelsanders 01:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
To your first point: yes, I think you interpreted my reference correctly after looking back. :-) Second point, yes, tagging an article for merging is an appropriate action; however, the person who nominated this for AfD genuinely (and in good faith) believed that this article was too trivial, and therefore needed to be deleted. Plenty of trivial articles get nominated for deletion, but the ones that should be merged usually end up getting merged. The one beef I really have with articles that get AfDed are those that clearly should be kept, but needed to be cleaned up instead, but that's not the case here. To your third point, it's not whether you want to be acknowledged or not, but that GFDL attribution requirements specifically state this. :-) --Deathphoenix ʕ 01:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sundra Oakley

Sundra Oakley (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This is one of the many Survivor contestant articles where the person really isn't notable. It seems like she's only had a few minor, one episode appearances on shows besides Survivor. Through the many AFD's, it has become clear that, unless the player has won the show, did something really, really notable on the show, or did something notable outside of the show, they really don't deserve an article. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 18:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep unless or until she's voted off. Otto4711 19:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete until actual notability is achieved! We don't keep articles on the off-chance that the subject may become notable! Xtifr tälk 20:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Meh, her appearances make her just minimally notable for as long as she's on the show. Chuck 'er if she loses. Otto4711 00:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Akihabara 02:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - this AfD is premature. Her regular appearances in Survivor: Cook Islands, in addition to the roles in Sex and the City and CSI: Miami put her barely above the notability bar... for now. Whether she stays there will depend on the end of the Survivor season and any roles she has after it, but in the interim, she's a valid subject for a Wikipedia article. B.Wind 01:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harry Potter characters birthday list

List and fancruft, totally unencyclopaedic. WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. Rory096 18:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT paper, but this is hardly 'indiscriminate' information and does not seem to fit any of the definitions listed at NOT. Sandpiper 16:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
And is that a problem? if you look below you will see that while he asked me to look here, I have voted to merge. Are you suggesting that people who are interested in a particular subject should not be asked to comment when an article comes up for deletion? Sandpiper 16:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I can certainly agree that this shouldn't be a problem. The HP Wikiproject has a subpage specifically to notify users when articles are up for AfD, and looking at the history of articles advertised there will show you that members of the Wikiproject have voted in a variety of ways. In fact, I notice that the two recent AfDs weren't placed there, so I will place it there myself. I would also note that he asked me to take a look simply because I am familiar with Harry Potter articles, not because we agree on this subject matter (as a matter of fact, we've had our disagreements). --Deathphoenix ʕ 00:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is meant to make information easy to find and reference, is it not? Michaelsanders 18:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Yes, encyclopaedias make information easy to find, but that doesn't mean that they should include completely unencyclopaedic information. --Rory096 19:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopaedias have lists of regnal dates, do they not? So how is this topic, or similar topics, unencyclopaedic? Michaelsanders 19:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Um, you're comparing fictional fantasy characters to actual historical monarchs and their dynasties? Bwithh 20:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Um, so you are biased against articles for works of fiction? Are you then qualified to judge here? Michaelsanders 20:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Look. You've already acknowledged that this list of fictional birthdays is not as important as lists of dates relating to real people, so could you please stop playing the bias card? If we're biased for thinking that fictional dates are less important than historical ones, then so are you. Otto4711 20:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Absolute importance is not a good sole criteria for inclusion. It is necessary to consider relative importance to people. I spent £50 on HP, and so did hundreds of millions of other people. Not important? Sandpiper 16:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't suggest that absolute importance was the sole criterion. My comment was addressing how Michael was calling people "biased" and implying their opinions were less valid because they were saying that fictional dates are less important than real ones. 205.141.247.28 20:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I was saying that if you think an article is by its subject matter irrelevant, then you are automatically bringing in a prejudice against it. Also, I was not aware that wikipedia moderated article existence/length based on importance. Shall we remove the article about Jane Grey because she only ruled for 9 days - so wasn't as important as other monarchs? Michaelsanders 20:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - Star Wars characters shoe size? Lord of the Rings character's middle names? Indiscriminate fancruft & listcruft (flistcruft?). Proto::► 19:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. The information is already included in character articles, which is sufficient. (I hope nobody will be inconvenienced when sending cards.) --Dhartung | Talk 19:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
It makes it easier to find, however, than being spread through various articles. Would you delete a list of presidents, because that information was already included in their articles? What about the articles detailing the British peerages? The only difference here seems to be that a list of Kings and Queens, say, is historical, as opposed to fictional. Leading me to wonder whether any of you have a bias against articles regarding works of fiction. Michaelsanders 19:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh dear God - You're actually comparing a list of birthdays of fictional characters to a list of Presidents and monarchs, and claiming that they're somehow equivalent in importance? Delete as unencyclopedic, irrelevant listcruft. Otto4711 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Birthdays are actually reasonably important(in both real life and in the Harry Potter universe), more so than shoe size or middle names. This article could use a little expansion, some citations to sources, but it is neither fancruft or unencyclopaedic. If you think this list should be deleted for collating that information, then you'd have to remove the information from each page. Mister.Manticore 19:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Untrue. Birthdates may be important information within the context of a given article. It isn't the information that's objected to; it's the creation of an article for no other purpose than to list that information. Should we have a separate article for the birthdates of every character in every movie and book? Tragic romance 10:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Fanlistcruft. Take it to a Harry Potter wiki (I'm sure they are several out there) and see if they'll keep it. Bwithh 20:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not interested in Harry Potter wikis, or in posting fan rubbish. I'm interested in making Wikipedia as thorough, useful, easily-accessible, readable, and organised as possible. Which is why I am trying to create this article, in order to get the information in a thorough and clear, easy to find and use manner. I understand that we are coming from rather different directions here - I value the Harry Potter series and am trying to ensure that its articles are of the best standard, whereas most of the contributors here clearly have no respect for it and obviously have no desire to actually give any thought to the matter. As to why I am comparing the article to a list of Peers or Presidents: those are relevant to you. This article is relevant to those interested in Harry Potter. You may not like that, but you have to accept it. From an absolute perspective, of course the birthday list is not as important as a list of historical presidents. But relatively, it is important enough to the Harry Potter project to merit retention. Michaelsanders 20:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Michael, nobody is saying that the Harry Potter series is unvalued, and is not relevant to Wikipedia. Surely this information already exists in the articles on each of the characters? Proto::► 22:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.
  • Stong Keep See WP:NOT#PAPER. The series has sold over 300 million books and been translated to 47 or so languages. It's is hardly fancruft when the fans represent a significant portion of the population of the world. John Reaves 20:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • That there are a lot of fans doesn't make this anything other than fancruft. It just makes it monster fancruft. And the number of books that have sold is irrelevant to whether a list of character birthdays is an appropriate Wikipedia article. Convince me that it's encyclopedic to know that Cho Chang was born on September 7, 1979. Otto4711 20:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

LL*Harry Potter being popular is an entirely irrelevant reason to keep the article - please read WP:ILIKEIT. Proto::► 22:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

There are times when I wish to know when a character's birthday is. I might be interested in finding out how many birthdays are known without digging around on the Rowling site. I might be interested in which character birthday is on a particular day. There are plenty of valid reasons why any Harry Potter fan might wish to see it, all of which comply with Wikipedia rules, and which you are blatantly IGNORING. Do you hold yourselves to any standard? You are showing a blatant disregard for the interests of other readers, measuring article relevance by your own yardsticks - despite the fact that your very lack of interest in the subject makes it impossible for you to grasp how it can be relevant! That simply is not on. Michaelsanders 21:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
There are times when I want to know all sorts of things that aren't important enough to be in Wikipedia. Otto4711 21:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
But this is merely your opinion of what is important. Are you a Harry Potter fan? Or part of the Project to include and organise Harry Potter details? Or involved in its articles in any meaningful way? Because if not, who are you to judge whether such articles are important or not? Leave that to the Potter-related editors, who do know whether an article relating to HP is important, or relevant. Michaelsanders 22:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Not merely my opinion, from the looks of the nomination... Otto4711 22:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
You, and a number of others who have little real knowledge of Harry Potter. Michaelsanders 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I know about the Harry Potter series, read all the books, liked them (THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE IS SNAPE!!!!!!! :p), but this is not suitable for Wikipefdia. The information already exists ont he articles of each character. The information could go into the Dates in Harry Potter article. What it is not worthy of is its own article. Please try and understand there's a difference between thinking this is not suitable and hating your favourite series of books. Proto::► 22:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Spoilers end here.
  • Surely you mean merge and redirect? John Reaves 22:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect with Dates in Harry Potter#Births. Redirects are cheap. I'll admit to being a Harry Potter fan, and that I was notified of this AfD, but I don't think that should redistribute the weight of my vote at all. Speaking quite neutrally, this information is important but clearly the way it's been presented and the fact that it's in its own article is not doing much for it. I'd also like to reproach everybody for the icy attitude that has been shown in the exchange between "Harry Potter fans" and "Harry Potter deletionists." Just keep a calm manner, please, it's really upsetting to see a feud over something like this. Incidentally, the merging of a number of small, unsourced articles that don't merit their own space is currently being discussed at the WP Harry Potter, and this is one of them. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 22:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect with Dates_in_Harry_Potter#Births, this is not needed as a separate list.-- danntm T C 22:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge as per above. TSO1D 23:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect per above Subwayguy 23:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect suggest if you want to know a character's birthday, check the characer's article. Danny Lilithborne 00:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge no redirect. wtfunkymonkey 01:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • What possible reason is there for not having a redirect? John Reaves 01:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Merging without a redirect breaks GFDL requirements unless the admin performs a history merge, and a history merge is much too complicated to perform except for exceptional cases... it's a rare article that gets merged without a redirect. --Deathphoenix ʕ 00:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with Dates in Harry Potter#Births (Duane543 03:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC))
  • Delete as fancruft up to our eyeballs, but if necessary, merge. -Patstuarttalk|edits 08:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. The creation of an article for no other purpose than to list minor information. Should we have a separate article for the birthdates of every character in every movie and book? Tragic romance 10:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • No, because there are probably very few other movies or books where 25 characters's birthdays have been noted. And if they have been noted, it's probably important enough to be mentioned somewhere. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 19:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with Dates in Harry Potter (although 'Dates' already has a section on characters birthdays, which very probably contains all this information already, so little 'merging' would be required). I'm not convinced the title really makes sense as a redirect... I always though a 'birthday list' was a list of presents I want for my birthday. But I find the arguments advanced above (broadly) that wiki should not give comprehensive coverage to a phenomen like 'Harry Potter', which probably interests more people than the majority of all articles as extraordinary, and on the lines of 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'. Sandpiper 16:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect unique entries to Dates in Harry Potter#Births as mentioned above. This article is somewhat redundant with the section of the target article. --Deathphoenix ʕ 00:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Myths and misperceptions about Texas

Myths and misperceptions about Texas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Original research. Was at one time PROD'ed after a lengthy discussion with the original author, with the author finally endorsing the PROD and then even replacing it with a speedy-deletion request, but the latter was removed by somebody else (the PROD would otherwise probably have led to deletion back then). A second speedy request was made today, but CSD doesn't apply. - Note that the OR problem does not apply so much to the facts reported as correct (those are well sourced, in fact), but to the claims about what are "wide-spread" misconceptions. No problem about stating that Texas has a coastline with the Gulf of Mexico. But what's the source for claiming that people commonly believe it hasn't? No problem stating that cotton is among Texas' traditional industries. But what's the justification for implying that people typically aren't aware of that? To forestall one possible keep argument: The case of Common misconceptions about HIV and AIDS is not a suitable keep precedent, for exactly that reason: In the case of AIDS, the issue of what are and what aren't common misconceptions is the object of a well-documented public discourse and doubtless numerous scientific studies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, nominator says it all. Proto::► 19:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nominator and as blatent OR. meshach 22:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, or userfy this personal essay. Although individual points are fairly well sourced, the whole point of the article is that this is a well-recognized list of widely-held misperceptions, and that point isn't supported by any sources at all. I do have to observe that Hollywood has indeed had a propensity for filming scenes that supposedly take place in Texas in the Monument Valley. A notable example is The Searchers. There are amazing scenes of a rancher's cabin surrounded by arid desert... I always wondered where the stock grazed. Actually imdb comments that "In the climactic scene, John Wayne and Natalie Wood run up the side of a hill in Monument Valley, Utah... and come down the other side of the hill in the Bronson Canyon area of Griffith Park, Los Angeles." Dpbsmith (talk) 22:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Danny Lilithborne 00:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as original research and a personal essay.-- danntm T C 00:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per my (way too long-winded) comments on the article's talk page. --TheOtherBob 16:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedily deleted by Proto. (aeropagitica) 22:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time Line Therapy

Time Line Therapy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Advert and WP:BOLLOCKS. Leibniz 19:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment Where's the article? Sr13 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedily deleted by an admin who neglected to close this AFD first... Leibniz 19:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
So why not close it for them? (aeropagitica) 22:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[edit] Fated Souls

Fated Souls (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Self-published, fanfiction-like game. The article does not cite multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. (Multiple independant published works refereing to this topic do not seem to exist.) The subject of the article does not seem to have won any awards. This article totally fails WP:WEB. Kunzite 19:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Kunzite 19:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment this is not a japanese-related articles.--Ongep 07:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete fangame, the end (compounded by the fact that it takes place in the human wasteland known as GaiaOnline) Danny Lilithborne 00:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - there was a problem with the link to this discussion in the AfD template on the Fated Souls article (where the nominators reason for deletion instead of the link to this AfD discussion appeared). I have fixed it. --tgheretford (talk) 01:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Worthless roleplay topic on Gaia. I especially liked the part about the "private anime." Hilarious, guys. Moogy(talk) 23:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support -- This is honestly becoming a private anime. Creator-and-all is working with an anime source team to convert it to an anime. I felt it was only right to include it in some form or another. Is there something wrong against stating the truth? Raftacon 01:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment "Truth" or "existence" is not a factor for inclusion in Wikipedia. You can read the inclusion criteria for this type of article here. I've not seen a "private anime" that meets Wikipedia notability inclusion criteria. It looks like any of 100 fanfiction products that I've seen and read over the internet. This one doesn't seem to meet the inclusion criteria either. When it gets animated and gets a national release, come back and see us. --Kunzite 01:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment -- If you say so, yet I do still believe this is a vital mistake. Raftacon 01:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] J. Edward Anderson

J. Edward Anderson (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Here we have an article on an individual whose notability is - questionable at best. Those sources which do exist appear often to be fallout from the rather bitter fight over personal rapid transit in Minnesota. The number of Google hits for "J. Edward Anderson" is small, under 200 off Wikipedia. The article was startewd by one side in the dispute, and is now being edited by the other, but what we have here is still dominated by that dispute, which in fairness is probably of very little significance to Anderson in his overall career. As an academic, he should be judged by WP:PROF, and I see a serious shortage of evidence that he meets that test. Do we need a battleground on Wikipedia with a living individual in the middle of it? I'd say not. Guy (Help!) 19:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. ThuranX 19:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
If J. Edward Anderson is not worthy of an article, then the same can be said of Personal Rapid Transit. I have never found a mention of Dr. Anderson and/or PRT in any other encyclopedia. Please delete them both...Avidor 20:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
So now you are voting delete JE Anderson, not even a week after creating it? What kind game are you playing here, Avidor? I think it's safe to say now that the JE Anderson article was created in bad faith... ATren 20:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I am capable of changing my opinion if I am presented with facts and logic that point to a contrary conclusion and Guy has done exactly that. Dr. Anderson is not worthy of an article in Wikipedia and neither is the unproven concept (PRT) he promoted for nearly 40 years.Avidor 21:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment This is some of the most ridiculously immature behavior I've experienced on Wikipedia. I can't believe I wasted my time trying to fix the article at all, as I now see the entire situation was part of Avidor's 'my way or the highway' manipulation. I can no longer AGF regarding Avidor. In the future, Avidor, please make it clear to those of us Wikipedians who just try to improve Wikipedia that we're interfering with your tantrums, and we'll go elsewhere. ThuranX 22:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you feel that way. The truth is I felt it was important to create a Wikipedia page for J. Edward Anderson because he was cited so much in the Personal Rapid Transit Wikipedia article. I also thought Anderson deserved his own page given the number of times he has appeared in the major media in the past. If I had an idea that the article would be challenged for notability, I would have never written it... Avidor 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Through the Wikiglass The idea of judging merit -- especially by appeals to academic standards -- within a circus that deliberately rejects any hierarchy of competence is ... um ... ironic. Knappster 03:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I've put some thought and research into this, and regardless of whether the article creator was acting in good faith, I believe Anderson is notable. He has been at the forefront of PRT research for decades, and is responsible for much (though not all) of the current state of PRT research. He and his invention (Taxi2000) are the subject of several non-trivial news articles ([60],[61],[62],[63],[64],[65]) and are mentioned in several others ([66],Time Magazine). I don't think there's a question as to his notability. The article certainly needs to be cleaned up (and this needs to be done with care given the history of this dispute) but I don't see any reason why it should be deleted. ATren 19:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gafro

Gafro (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This is a dictionary definition of a slang word. Punkmorten 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, merge any suitable content into Afro et al. --stephenw32768<user page><talk> 19:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Clearly OR - delete with White afro, a similar unsourced OR article featuring a slang term for a hairstyle. B.Wind 00:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vital needs

Vital needs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

WP:OR and WP:BOLLOCKS. Leibniz 19:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedily deleted as {{db-nonsense}}. (aeropagitica) 17:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bear with three apples

Bear with three apples (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Found while clearing out CAT:CSD. Deletion reason was -- Self-published work. This is not a valid speedy deletion reason. Aside from that, note there were no sources as of this post. Therefore I nominated this to afd. Opinions on what to do with this? No Stance —— Eagle 101 (Need help?) 19:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as nn & something made up at university one day. meshach 22:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete What non-sense is this? TSO1D 23:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete this is quite clearly nonsense. Danny Lilithborne 00:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per meshach. Not quite utter nonsense, although it probably makes more sense if you can see the accompanying image (deleted for license reasons) which shows a cartoon teddy bear juggling three apples labelled "price", "quality" and "time". It's just a silly graphical metaphor someone came up with for the old saying: "Good, fast, cheap — pick any two." Still completely unencyclopedic. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Black people (ethnicity)

Black people (ethnicity) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)
  • STRONG DELETE: This article is a POV, it is the result of an unsettled dispute, there is already an African People article, a Black People article and an African American article, there is no reason for this additional black people article which is here to articulates a very American view of who and what black people are. It offers no Encyclopedic value just a POV fork. The content borders on Original research. It should be merged in African American (where this info exist) or merged back into black people where this info came from. and adding black is not an ethnic group.--Halaqah 19:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Article creation borderline violation of WP:POINT. Also, "black" is a social construction, not an ethnicity. --Strothra 19:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per user:Halaqah and user:Strothra. Merge unnecessary, as reasonable content already exists at race, Bantu, African American, etc. Jd2718 21:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete seems to be a POV fork of black people. If for some reason this article survives, it should be renamed Black (ethnicity). Koweja 23:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per user:Halaqah and user:Strothra, if it survives it should be renamed as American Views on Black Ethnicity. Alf photoman 00:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete -- also see Black as a skin color identity. This is all fallout from the endless debate in the Black people article about who "owns" that term. I'm not sure how this can be resolved, but forking articles like this is not the way to do it. Perhaps, as Alf says, a new article on American views on Black ethnicity might be one way to make forward progress. -- The Anome 00:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This suggestion can be a sub section in the black people article, no need for another topic just to articulate a view which probably only a few African Americans adhere to.--Halaqah 02:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. There is no need for a rush to judgment. The general topic is an absolute mess of arguments over undefined (or individually defined) terms. [Race] is a "myth" (or, to be more PC, it is a social construct), but racism is a reality. What is at issue in the case of a racist attack is not the reality or accuracy of categorization, but the fact that the attribution of status is made and that real world consequences flow from those attributions. One of the side-effects of this racist attack is that the groups targeted can buy into the systems of categorization used by their oppressors, and that acceptance of a social construct can have both good and bad results in individual cases. If the "Black is beautiful" movement is in the ascendant, then the social construct can have at least a transient good effect. If the negative values implicit in the social constructs are internalized by the victims of these social constructs, then the effects can be strongly negative. Either way, we need to understand the intricate structure of the dominant social constructs, and for that reason it would be inappropriate and even hurtful to stuff off reports and analyses pertinent to these fabrications. P0M 00:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - How does this relate to Black people (terminology), or is that article part of the "fallout" as well?

--72.75.105.165 04:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Basically, yes. Lacking top-down planning, a series of articles will sometimes grow up. They often will contend for territory, and they often will be attempts to patch-over inconsistencies that naturally arise in the course of bottom-up "planning". P0M 05:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with one of the similar articles about well black people. Anomo 04:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as per above. Alun 07:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but continue discussion elsewhere - this and related articles are an ongoing problem, and merely deleting this article won't address the underlying problems. There are ongoing efforts at the talk pages to consolidate and diversify the articles on this topic, and it seems some progress is being made. See Talk:Black people for some of the history behind all this. Carcharoth 11:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per user:Carcharoth. RaveenS 22:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge with similar articles concerning blacks. Bearly541 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy Delete as CSD G1-patent nonsense. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Twump

Twump (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)g

How can it be a "leading" video game if google does not know it? Aleph-4 19:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete, nonsense joke article. Maybe Twump is weally a westler in the Pwide FC? Tubezone 20:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TeckWizTalkContribs@ 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Alex McFarland

Alex McFarland (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Badly written hagiography ('Alex delivers the "real" truth about Jesus Christ to a confusing world'), contested PROD. ➥the Epopt 20:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aref ensemble

Aref ensemble (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Neutral bump from speedy. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-10 20:24Z

  • Strong Keep The group is one of the most notable Persian music ensemble of 20th century. No doubt, It deserves a page on wikipedia. Sangak 20:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • But can you find reliable sources? I did not have much luck with googling for them. Leibniz 22:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Well. Most articles are in persian unfortunately. One may find Album posters and short reviews in English for example this one[67] and Iran Newspaper in English[68] or this link about some of the group members[69]. Here are English google and Persian google search for them. Sangak 12:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep if User:Sangak can come up with some references / sources to support his claim. Otherwise weak delete. Akihabara 02:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
For instance this page refers to Aref group:History of Iranian music. Sangak 20:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Author-Level Digital Rights Management

Author-Level Digital Rights Management (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Bump from speedy. Not speedyable, but should be deleted. Not notable. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-10 20:27Z

  • Delete Firstly, article seems to be created to promote one company's product. See this link on the "Pardalis Inc" website, and cf. contributions of Pardalis, the editor of this article who has not edited any other item. So it looks self-promotional. Second, this probably doesn't meet any significant level of notability. A google search for "Author Level Digital Rights Management" has three hits, all essentially the same white paper by Pardalis, at this time, and a more generous search for "Author level" separate from "DRM/Digital Rights Management" still only has 74 hits, again headed by the same company's pages. I don;t see evidence that it's of any great notability other than in respect of this one company. FT2 (Talk | email) 22:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and FT2, as advertising. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge into a suitable DRM article, unless this is a company-specific technology, in which case delete. Does seem to be promotional only, so delete. Akihabara 02:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slivercasting

Slivercasting (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

As it has very little information (mostly pointing to links, has not been edited since October 06 which was by a bot that maked it for cleanup Wrcmills 20:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Not notable. Akihabara 02:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Volcanoes - The Fire Within

Volcanoes - The Fire Within (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This is almost certainly unsourced OR. -- BrotherFlounder (aka DiegoTehMexican) 20:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as OR. Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 21:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I'd like to figure out what this actually is. Katia and Maurice Krafft are real enough. My first thought was that this was an amateurish summary of a documentary film or book, but I haven't been able to locate one by that title. At the moment I can't tell whether this is an original essay (in purpose prose) or a summary or paraphrase of something that might or might not be encyclopedic. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as OR. I suspect this is somebody's school essay, but I don't see any content that isn't more throughly covered already at Volcano and related articles. Fan-1967 23:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete essay. Danny Lilithborne 00:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Accepting this as good faith and at face value; it fails WP:V, WP:NOR and as mentioned covers topic already detailed in Volcano. Doubt if there is anything useful that can be merged with Volcano. --Eqdoktor 07:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Westmont

The Westmont (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

This building really does exist, and I can attest that everything said about it is true. But it is not notable, and for that reason it should be deleted. YechielMan 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Akihabara 02:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a non-notable biography/borderline attack, WP:BIO/{{db-attack}} both refer. (aeropagitica) 22:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ryan Collins

Ryan Collins (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Obvious hoax. Aleph-4 20:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy delete. --SonicChao talk 21:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - as per nom, as well as all the other articles the nominated article links to which are also up for AfD. --tgheretford (talk) 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete per nom Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 21:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Society of Saint Michael

Society of Saint Michael (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Student "secret society"; created by a single purpose account; completely unsourced and apparently unverifiable. (If it does exist, it is doing a very good job on the "secret" part — I studied at Trinity College Dublin and have never heard of it.) Demiurge 21:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete as per nom. --SonicChao talk 21:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 21:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete unless there are references by the time this AfD ends. Alf photoman 23:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It's real ok, you'll find it mentioned in some issues of Miscellany in the early 80s. It was (is?) a student drinking club.

There's a reference to it in the tunnels under house 43. "Society of St. Michael - 1987". I wasn't sure what it was referring to, but I guess this is it.

[edit] Fuzzy routing

Fuzzy routing (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

unsourced, stub-length, but I believe it may have potential, so should not be really suspect to speedy Will (Tell me, is something eluding you, Sunshine?) 21:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Conditional delete, if it is sourced and improved, I will cross this out and replace it with keep. --SonicChao talk 21:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Would like to see the article improved. It has potential to be expanded upon. Navou talk 22:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete - if it hasn't reached even the stage of a draft, it's not yet encyclopedic. No objection to recreation when a draft is published. -- Bpmullins | Talk 22:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Conditional delete: There is an article to be written about fuzzy routing. This currently isn't it. Either rewrite from scratch, citing actual real-world research (such as [70], [71], [72], [73]), or delete the existing article if that isn't done by the end of this AfD process. -- The Anome 23:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It would appear the article has been changed significantly since the AfD for this article was initiated. Speedy keep and close. Navou talk 05:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: No, much of it is still nonsense: for example, the "invented in 2006 by students" bit is clearly contradicted by the presence of much earlier papers on the topic. I've now replaced the previous content with a stub, and added cites to the links provided above. -- The Anome 10:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Changing my vote to keep, since I have now replaced the previous content with a properly referenced stub, and this is a legitimate subject that deserves a fuller treatment. -- The Anome 11:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Has potential if references are properly used and if the article's expanded. --doco (☏) 11:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Changing my opinion to Keep. More than enough has been added. (Thanks, The Anome) -- Bpmullins | Talk 19:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Winter Camping

Winter Camping (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Wikipedia is NOT a how-to guide. FirefoxMan 21:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Per Nom. Does not pass WP:NOT per section 1.2 usage guide. Navou talk 21:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above, definately does not pass WP:NOT. Cbrown1023 00:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ACN 121 239 674 Limited

ACN 121 239 674 Limited (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Not notable Uni club. Does not pass WP:ORG DXRAW 08:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep It appears that you didn't read the article. This article concerns an organisation composed of, and replacing, three uni student organisations that have not had notability problems in the past. Joestella 09:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment for Joestella or whomever is in the know: Is this shelf company temporary, or is the new org to be named something without so many numbers in it, or is this the permanent name of the new organizaton? How that's answered will decide what happens from here. --Dennisthe2 23:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The article says "The transitional board will choose a name for the organisation before the commencement on Session 1, 2007. The new name is understood to be "Arc"." Joestella 01:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • In that case, I'd have to say weak delete. The transitional company itself is a transitional company and nothing more, and will, as near as I can tell, be effectively discarded in favor of the new org name ("Arc", or whatever it comes to be). It's not to say I'd discharge the new org - I'd likely not. --Dennisthe2 03:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename. I don't like the name as no-one is going to look for this name. Keep and rename to the actual name chosen by students asap. Given that most students on campus are members or at least contribute funds, it is more important than your run of the mill studnet club. Possibly merge with University of NSW. Capitalistroadster 01:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I plan to rename it, as soon as I can confirm the new name. Joestella 01:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbits and Rampage

Rabbits and Rampage (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Per WP:BOLLOCKS - That's really the best way to describe every single new article created by User:Hawkinstone - Creator has also been found vandalising the Grease (film) article using one of this recent pages to change the cast. Everything is likely to be a personal attack. The various articles listed were PRODed but per Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ryan_Collins everything else should be listed here too in my opinion. Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 21:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm also listing the following additional articles for consideration within this AfD:-

[edit] South Otago High School

South Otago High school (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Nothing about this school -- including the two notable alumni listed, and the 2002 local menigococcus outbreak leading the government to vaccinate its students -- indicates that there would be non-trivial external sources that we could use to write a good article about it. Tagged for notability since June, but no one has addressed the concern. Looking through the first few dozen results of a Google search (yielding 169 unique hits altogether), I see nothing promising. Prodded and de-prodded. Pan Dan 21:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment Trying to put this AFD together I noticed that the article I am nominating is South Otago High school, but there is also a South Otago High School about the same school. Participants in this debate will want to look at both articles. Merged. Pan Dan 21:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletions. -- gadfium 22:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep for main article, delete the lower-case version. Secondary schools are normally considered worthy of articles.-gadfium 22:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • That depends on the school. Looking here, I see that most recent high school article AFD's resulted in no consensus. (And one recent AFD actually resulted in delete.) But anyway, outcomes of past AFD's don't have anything to do with whether an encyclopedic article can be written about this school. Pan Dan 22:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks, that's an interesting link. I believe that all normal New Zealand secondary schools are worthy of articles. I can't say that for all secondary schools around the world, because educational systems differ. I've added the word "normal" without being able to say exactly what I mean by it. However, a proposed school would not usually be worthy of an article. My reasoning stems partly from a back-of-the-envelope calculation: a school of 500 students must have an intake of at least 100 per year (probably more, because a large proportion don't stay a full five years), and when it's existed for 80 years, that's 8000 students (assuming a constant roll, which is not a very safe assumption). There are also quite a number of staff who will have worked there over the years. Many parents will also have had significant interactions with the school. Any place which has affected so many people on a daily basis seems notable. Another part of my reasoning is that school articles are often a place where Wikipedians start editing, and they then move on to more diverse articles. I've seen a number of New Zealand editors get started through their secondary school article. I realise that many editors also get started by editing articles on garage bands and that this is not a reason to keep the garage band articles, but schools invariably have official listings and websites, providing some verifiability, they are regularly reported on in local newspapers, and the articles are not (mostly) driven by vanity. It's not at all unusual for a long-standing secondary school such as this one to have a book written about their history. Such books won't be widely available outside the town that they're in, but they can be ordered through interlibrary services within the country.-gadfium 23:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
        • You make some thoughtful points. The question of notability remains though -- are there external sources about this school that we could use to write a good article about it? To speculate that there may be books out there, somewhere, is not enough -- someone has to actually find those. Searches on Google books and on Amazon show nothing. Pan Dan 14:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable school, more notable than many that have had keep votes here in the past. Will try to expand and clean up the article when I get a little time (hopefully later today). Grutness...wha? 00:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Hopefully I've managed to spruce it up a little... Grutness...wha? 03:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks, the article looks much better now. The question of notability remains -- I could write an equally detailed article (with pictures!) on many local businesses, using their websites as sources. But these are not good candidtates to be Wikipedia articles -- to show notability the sources have to be external. Pan Dan 14:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Chance of multiple independent reliable sources is high due to nature of subject. --- RockMFR 01:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • On the contrary, I would think the chances of sources would be low given that this is a local high school -- most local high schools aren't the subjects of non-trivial external sources, and nothing indicates that this one is an exception. (Many high schools have famous alumni -- why would famous alumni induce external publishers to publish articles featuring the school? And the disease outbreak was really something that happened in the town, not the school.) But anyway, what's the point of talking about the chances that there's good coverage out there? To show notability someone has to actually find the sources. I looked and found none. Please do a search yourself instead of speculating. Pan Dan 14:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per RockMFR and also a general feeling pro-schools in WP --BozMo talk 13:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per precedent, and because it meets my personal notiability standards for High Schools (since WP:SCHOOLS is still not a consensus standard.) — RJH (talk) 20:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • (1) "Per precedent" is not a valid reason to keep or delete any article. (2) Even if precedent were a valid reason in general, it makes no sense for high school articles, as most AFD's on those result in no consensus, and a recent one even resulted in delete. Pan Dan 21:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I agree with nom. To keep this is in effect to assert more of the highly debatable "all schools are notable" line. Eusebeus 01:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a non-notable biography, WP:BIO refers. (aeropagitica) 22:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antoine Williams

Antoine Williams (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

"Up and coming" is no claim to notability. Originally "db-bio" (CSD A7), but the original author User:AntoineJ removed it. Aleph-4 22:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Plant teacher

[edit] Partner (2007)

This article was tagged as a copyvio from http://www.salmankhan.net/forthcoming/Partner.asp, but a few random searches show no violations. So I'm bringing it here instead. It may be too early to write as it can still fall through. On the other hand, the source is reliable. No vote. - Mgm|(talk) 12:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, the main paragraph is almost identical to one from the cite, but just a small fraction of the text has been copied. Personally I don't think this is the kind of articles we should have in WP, but they are here so I'll have to pass. -- Steve Hart 15:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, —— Eagle 101 (Need help?) 22:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. WP:NOT a crystal ball. A scan of Sohail Khan and Govinda (actor) suggests that the film will probably generate an article if it's released, but the information presented here is too skimpy. There simply doesn't appear to be enough information from relaible sources to create an article (even IMDB is holding off). Mr Stephen 23:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above; it should be recreated when more information becomes available. Cbrown1023 00:38, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep.; AFD created by a single-purpose account, with the intent to delete articles created by WietsE. User has been indefinitely blocked. Ral315 (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sumac Centre

Sumac Centre (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable group. Carl Timothy Jones 22:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I argue that this is a notable group. Read the extensive history of the project in the article. Please see related issue: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#A_coincidence_.3F. WietsE 23:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • What are the details of your argument? Apart from accusing me of bad faith. Carl Timothy Jones 23:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep.; AFD created by a single-purpose account, with the intent to delete articles created by WietsE. User has been indefinitely blocked. Ral315 (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK Social Centre Network

UK Social Centre Network (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable group Carl Timothy Jones 22:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment Seems pretty big to be non-notable, but reserve judgement. Note that Carl Timothy Jones has been nominating only articles written by one user as his only edits so far. Kim Bruning 23:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep bad faith nomination. `'mikkanarxi 09:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Mischief Makers

{:The Mischief Makers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD) Non-notable group. Carl Timothy Jones 22:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I argue that this is a notable group. See the extensive history of the project. Please see related issue: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#A_coincidence_.3F. WietsE 23:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • What are the details of your argument? Apart from accusing me of bad faith. Carl Timothy Jones 23:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I see no evidence that they have been primary subject of multiple on-trivial coverage in reliable secondary sources. Guy (Help!) 00:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. Cbrown1023 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per nominator's WP:SPA (and indef blocking) and the article seems to be more notable than previously thought. Cbrown1023 02:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • KEEP Overall I found it to be good article, thank you for your time. Rcehoppe 08:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Greater Slovenia

Greater Slovenia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Nonencyclopedic article providing no sources whatsoever. I would make it a speedy but since I am from Slovenia I find it more neutral to nominate the article here. --Tone 22:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep I see no reason to delete this article, it could have encyclopedic value as does Greater Serbia or Greater Germany. TSO1D 23:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep - it seems that one Nenad Canak reports on calls for such a thing (although he doesn't actually go into any more depth than that the calls are made). It's also apparently part of the ideology of the Slovene National Party, although I don't know quite where to pull up their flag or statements on their site for language-barrier reasons. There also seems to be a group of Austrians who believe that this is a common ideology in Slovenia. These two sources will be added to the article forthwith. As a bottom line, what we seem to be dealing with is an ideology that some people have and that some other people believe to be more common. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep As per above. Needs work (as a stub), may just be a fringe thing so it needs work on notability. --Eqdoktor 07:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per above. This topic is about as notable as many other entries in Category:Irredentism. //Dirak 19:42, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seager tennis

Seager tennis (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable, does not assert notability, or cite sources --YbborT 23:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy userfy. Would have been speedily deletable as nn-bio, but content is quite fine as a user page. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Boozer

John Boozer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable autobio Subwayguy 23:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[edit] Pregnant Olympics

Pregnant Olympics (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Obvious hoax. 54 Google hits, most saying there is no such thing. Was tagged as speedy, and probably a snowball, but the rules say hoaxes should go through AfD. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - if only obvious hoaxes could be speedied... (sighs) --tgheretford (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - per nom. --YbborT 23:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Move to WP:-) There's obviously nothing better to do with it, right?! It actually made me laugh, because it's out of the ordinary...not just stupid like all the rest of them. → JARED (t)  00:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. Cbrown1023 00:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete dumb. Danny Lilithborne 00:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Don't BJAODN - it's not funny at all. --- RockMFR 01:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Well then you don't have a sense of humor because in Olympic context, it's hilarious! I'll put it there if you won't. → JARED (t)  01:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Strong DeletePer all of the above.--Sir james paul 01:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jordan Tate

Jordan Tate (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Completely non-notable screenwriter Subwayguy 23:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom and the fact that she hasn't made anything yet. Cbrown1023 00:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete CSD A7 - only link to the article that is not related to the AfD is one from an article for the short-lived TV series Central Park West- which had a character by the name Jordan Tate. Having three scripts optioned is no assertion of notability (many times scripts are bought to be pigeonholed). Good luck to her - and when/if her scripts make it to the big or little screen, we can have an objective article on Ms. Tate... but not before then. B.Wind 00:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bobijean Neher

Bobijean Neher (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Non-notable autobio self-promotion Subwayguy 23:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Cbrown1023 00:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (assertions of notability preclude speedy) - originating editor BJpoet719 appears to be Bobijean Neher, a clear conflict of interest. It is clearly an autobiography- and an unsourced one at that - with a little touch of linkspam at the end for flavoring. Oh, did I mention that the article is orphaned as well? B.Wind 00:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crackheads Gone Wild

Crackheads Gone Wild (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

No recommendation; referred from the speedy deletion queue. theProject 23:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete -- nothing at IMDB, and website is still "under contruction". - Longhair\talk 23:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above 129.186.37.175 01:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC) (User Cantras)
  • Delete as fast as possible - with nothing at IMDB, likely hoax. The dead home site doesn't help, either. B.Wind 00:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Agartha - Secrets of the Subterranean Cities

Agartha - Secrets of the Subterranean Cities (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Allegedly about a book whose "authorship remains dubious until further research can be done for this article." That pretty much says WP:OR failing WP:V. Leibniz 23:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MIT Assassins' Guild

MIT Assassins' Guild (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) — (View AfD)

Nomination for Deletion Student society whose sole unverifiable claim to encyclopedic notability is based on original research/hearsay. Fails core policy WP:V. The first AFD from June 2006 ended in no consensus after a couple of keep voters argued that the History of live action role-playing games page identifies the guild as "apparently important" (that is the phrase used by the main keep !voter argument) for popularizing the Assassin game. However, History of live action role-playing games is totally unreferenced and may have OR problems. MIT Assassins' Guild is also unreferenced and uncertain - the Guild article does not even seem to be sure if it was founded in 1982 or 1983 (The history of LARP article makes the unreferenced vague claim that the Guild was founded some time before 1981).

According to the MIT thesis linked to in the article's own external links section (this thesis was written by past Secretary of the MIT Assassins Guild[74] and is hosted on the Guild's own webspace), the MIT guild was officially recognized as a MIT student activity in 1982 and notes that at the time, there were many other such groups at other colleges (but which did not enjoy official recognition). The Guild is described in the thesis as originating as a group playing a game known as "Killer"

In another part of the same thesis, it is asserted that, aside from an earlier game with some similar characteristics known as "Circle of Death" that was popular on campuses, the most significant event in popularizing Assassin was the commercial publication in 1981 of a booklet of rules for the game "Killer" by the influential gamemaker Steve Jackson (US). In addition, the booklet is said by the thesis to have an afterword which states that the campus game is 15 years older than 1981, and may be traced as an idea as far back as the 1950s or even the 19th century.

The MIT thesis might be regarded as a reliable source for the article (but there may be WP:COI issues given its author). However,its account of the importance of the MIT Guild to the popularization of the Assassin/Killer game seems to be clearly at odds with the key claims to society notability in the Guild and History of LARP articles. It does not verify these claims - rather it seems more to discredit these claims

Bwithh 23:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not merge with Assassins (game)? There are clubs of this type at several US and British universities. StoptheDatabaseState 00:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I would say that clubs of this type can be found at most large US and UK universities. It is not especially uncommon. But Wikipedia is not a campus info booth, student activities bulletin board or a link directory. Merging or starting subsections on the history/current activities of all these student societies to that article would still be unencyclopedic unless each society can make their own special,verifiable claim to encyclopedic notability. Bwithh 00:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable. Akihabara 02:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Not a vote. The above long explanation confuses two concepts: Assassin-style games and larps. The MIT Assassins' Guild began as a group playing the former, and it is claimed that it significantly influenced the latter. It is now a LARP group, not an Assassin-style game group. moink 03:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, though the Guild article does make a point of saying that the group "popularized the assassin game" whilst the history article seems to associate the guild's influencec with "Assassination style LARPs". Anyway, the claim of influence on LARPs would need to be properly sourced too Bwithh 03:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The MIT thesis suggests that a Harvard group was the most important influential group on the LARP scene. Bwithh 03:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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