Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Belgian footballers
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete Nandesuka 14:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] List of Belgian footballers
Duplicates Category:Belgian footballers. Lists such as these can be useful if they have redlinks (thus providing a basis for expansion of the topic) or provide additional information, but this list has neither. Punkmorten 09:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom and previous discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of goalkeepers - criteria for inclusion are too vague for it to be an actually useful list. I would actually delete all List of xxxan footballers articles for the same reason. A listing scheme for internationally-capped players (e.g.List of Sweden international footballers) is a better way of doing things, as there is an objective and verifiable standard for inclusion. Qwghlm 09:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Delete. I like lists, but Punkmorten made the crucial case in his nomination. This list doesn't have any of the advantages they hold over categories. - Mgm|(talk) 12:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:LIST WilyD 22:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Delete, no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players. – Elisson • T • C • 23:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
- If you want an article deleted that's your business, but please don't lie about it to see it done. WilyD 18:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- Calling me a liar is serious business, so I sincerely hope that you have a good reason to do so, or you are on the border of breaking WP:NPA. Now please provide that reason, for the sake of both of us. – Elisson • T • C • 20:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't attack you, I asked you (fairly politely, in fact) not to advance false arguments in an articles for deletion discussion. That's a pretty reasonable thing to request, I believe. You said no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players - which is a directly false statement. If you accidentally misevaluated the article, then I'll apologise about saying you did deliberately what you may have done in error. It didn't occur to me you might simply have what appeared to me to be a straightforward issue. WilyD 14:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Why is my comment "no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players" false? Can an opinion even be "true" or "false"? What does the list (in its present state) do, that the category doesn't? And calling someone a liar is not justified by saying it nicely. You could just have asked "could you please clarify what you mean by saying that the list has no use whatsoever?", and I would have gladly answered you. – Elisson • T • C • 14:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Opinions can be true or false. I can say My opinion is that addition of integers is non-commutative - my opinion is then false. The statement no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players is false by the same virtue. If your claim is that you didn't mean what you wrote, I'll happily retract my earlier statement - for the time being, however, I can only respond to what you say, not what you mean. As for the usefulness of lists, see WP:LIST - it articulates them better than I can. WilyD 18:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, an opinion can't be false. If I say, "My opinion is that addition of integers is non-commutative", you can't say that my opinion is false, because I (in this example) really do believe that "x + y ≠ y + x". An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. I stand by my first post. This list does not improve Wikipedia in any way that the category does not. That's what I mean. Now tell me why that's wrong, and plase do not answer with "read WP:LIST", as I have no idea what specific line or paragraph you refer to. – Elisson • T • C • 18:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ironically, on the issue of whether opinions can be false, the opinion that they can't be is false. You can believe an opinion and it can still be false (in fact, I'd guess that every last person believes something that's factually inaccurate). One can certainly take an opinion on a question that's falsifiable. My experience tells me that if I merely copy & paste WP:LIST here I'll get slapped for being uncivil, but I'm not sure how else to explain the usefulness of lists. Lists serve as navigation aids, as growth structures and can organise a subject in a way categories can't - this is basically a stub-class list, but stub isn't a criterion for deletion (though I do see it used as such surprisingly often). WilyD 19:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is not an opinion that opinions can't be false, it is a fact. So, what you're basically saying is that all lists should be kept, as they "serve as navigation aids, as growth structures and can organise a subject in a way categories can't"? The category also serves as navigation aid, and regarding the growth structures and organisation of a subject, I see no difference whatsoever between List of Belgian footballers and Category:Belgian footballers. They both contain blue links only. They both contain the same names. They both list the names alphabetically. Now please tell me again what in WP:LIST applies to this case. – Elisson • T • C • 20:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Not really - lists need to be of encyclopaedic value, be verifiable, et cetera. The same standards that apply to non-list articles apply to list articles. But it's unreasonable to hold articles to a higher standard just because they're lists. As for how much use you personally find an article to be - I don't see why that's an important consideration. There are tons of useless articles (to me) in Wikipedia - I certainly wouldn't vote to delete them all. As for whether opinions can be wrong, it certainly is a fact that they can. My commutativity of addition example demonstrates that. WilyD 21:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Your comparison fails. I did not say "this is not a useful list", I said "this list is useful, but we already have a category that does the exact same thing, and it makes this list superfluous". See the difference? On opinions, I entitle you to the opinion of believing that opinions can be true or false, but it is a fact that they can't. Citing opinion once again: An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. Or this page: A statement of opinion expresses an attitude toward something – it makes a judgment, view, or conclusion, or gives an opinion that cannot be proven true or false. Or this page: A statement of opinion can be very well thought out but cannot be proved true or false - it is always open to debate. You mix up the opinion with the possible inclusion of a statement of fact in the opinion. I can never be proven wrong when saying "My opinion is that addition of integers is non-commutative", because you can't prove a person's opinion wrong. The only thing you can do is prove that the statement of fact contained in the opinion is wrong or right, but that still does not prove the opinion wrong or right. Either way, I don't see the point of this discussion, and I still haven't seen any explanation for why you called me a liar. – Elisson • T • C • 22:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, by that definition of opinion, this list is useful, but we already have a category that does the exact same thing, and it makes this list superfluous does not have an opinion in bold, but a factually incorrect basis for your opinion (since that statement is falsifiable and already shown to be false). You labelled a falsifiable statement that had already been falsified an opinion, I spoke with the same usage of the word - I'm not sure there's much motivation to muddy the issue now. As for the idea that an opinion can be an easily falsifiable statement, but can't be proven right or wrong - that is what comes out of the north end of a south facing bull. WilyD 14:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Your comparison fails. I did not say "this is not a useful list", I said "this list is useful, but we already have a category that does the exact same thing, and it makes this list superfluous". See the difference? On opinions, I entitle you to the opinion of believing that opinions can be true or false, but it is a fact that they can't. Citing opinion once again: An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. Or this page: A statement of opinion expresses an attitude toward something – it makes a judgment, view, or conclusion, or gives an opinion that cannot be proven true or false. Or this page: A statement of opinion can be very well thought out but cannot be proved true or false - it is always open to debate. You mix up the opinion with the possible inclusion of a statement of fact in the opinion. I can never be proven wrong when saying "My opinion is that addition of integers is non-commutative", because you can't prove a person's opinion wrong. The only thing you can do is prove that the statement of fact contained in the opinion is wrong or right, but that still does not prove the opinion wrong or right. Either way, I don't see the point of this discussion, and I still haven't seen any explanation for why you called me a liar. – Elisson • T • C • 22:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Not really - lists need to be of encyclopaedic value, be verifiable, et cetera. The same standards that apply to non-list articles apply to list articles. But it's unreasonable to hold articles to a higher standard just because they're lists. As for how much use you personally find an article to be - I don't see why that's an important consideration. There are tons of useless articles (to me) in Wikipedia - I certainly wouldn't vote to delete them all. As for whether opinions can be wrong, it certainly is a fact that they can. My commutativity of addition example demonstrates that. WilyD 21:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is not an opinion that opinions can't be false, it is a fact. So, what you're basically saying is that all lists should be kept, as they "serve as navigation aids, as growth structures and can organise a subject in a way categories can't"? The category also serves as navigation aid, and regarding the growth structures and organisation of a subject, I see no difference whatsoever between List of Belgian footballers and Category:Belgian footballers. They both contain blue links only. They both contain the same names. They both list the names alphabetically. Now please tell me again what in WP:LIST applies to this case. – Elisson • T • C • 20:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ironically, on the issue of whether opinions can be false, the opinion that they can't be is false. You can believe an opinion and it can still be false (in fact, I'd guess that every last person believes something that's factually inaccurate). One can certainly take an opinion on a question that's falsifiable. My experience tells me that if I merely copy & paste WP:LIST here I'll get slapped for being uncivil, but I'm not sure how else to explain the usefulness of lists. Lists serve as navigation aids, as growth structures and can organise a subject in a way categories can't - this is basically a stub-class list, but stub isn't a criterion for deletion (though I do see it used as such surprisingly often). WilyD 19:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, an opinion can't be false. If I say, "My opinion is that addition of integers is non-commutative", you can't say that my opinion is false, because I (in this example) really do believe that "x + y ≠ y + x". An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. I stand by my first post. This list does not improve Wikipedia in any way that the category does not. That's what I mean. Now tell me why that's wrong, and plase do not answer with "read WP:LIST", as I have no idea what specific line or paragraph you refer to. – Elisson • T • C • 18:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Opinions can be true or false. I can say My opinion is that addition of integers is non-commutative - my opinion is then false. The statement no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players is false by the same virtue. If your claim is that you didn't mean what you wrote, I'll happily retract my earlier statement - for the time being, however, I can only respond to what you say, not what you mean. As for the usefulness of lists, see WP:LIST - it articulates them better than I can. WilyD 18:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Why is my comment "no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players" false? Can an opinion even be "true" or "false"? What does the list (in its present state) do, that the category doesn't? And calling someone a liar is not justified by saying it nicely. You could just have asked "could you please clarify what you mean by saying that the list has no use whatsoever?", and I would have gladly answered you. – Elisson • T • C • 14:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't attack you, I asked you (fairly politely, in fact) not to advance false arguments in an articles for deletion discussion. That's a pretty reasonable thing to request, I believe. You said no use whatsoever as we have a category for the players - which is a directly false statement. If you accidentally misevaluated the article, then I'll apologise about saying you did deliberately what you may have done in error. It didn't occur to me you might simply have what appeared to me to be a straightforward issue. WilyD 14:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Calling me a liar is serious business, so I sincerely hope that you have a good reason to do so, or you are on the border of breaking WP:NPA. Now please provide that reason, for the sake of both of us. – Elisson • T • C • 20:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- If you want an article deleted that's your business, but please don't lie about it to see it done. WilyD 18:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- Delete, I don't like possibly infinite lists such as these. Far better to use categories. --Angelo 02:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
