Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was; quite obviously, this isn't going to be the end of this; but as far as having a separate article on this person goes, there is a consensus to delete, backed up by strong concerns about undue weight. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 14:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau

I'm pretty sure this person isn't notable enough for his own article. I think this was created as part of an ongoing edit war at the Elvis Presley page AniMate 16:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete just a minor incident in the life of the king. Not notable. QuiteUnusual 22:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment This is an interesting one. The FBI file has been noted in a number of places, including this article: "Arts: The FBI files," The Independent (London), Dec 13, 2005. I think the wikipedia article is probably excessive, but I don't know that it should be deleted altogther. Uucp 22:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article deals with one of the best documented FBI files concerning a well-known celebrity. Onefortyone 23:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
• DeleteQuestionable connection at best. To call it "the best documented FBI files" is a stretch. It's just another effort by User Onfortyone to push his fringe agenda. Lochdale 00:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that there is an edit war between Lochdale and Onefortyone concerning this matter. For unexplicable reasons, Lochdale frequently deleted references to the FBI files from the Elvis Presley article. See [1], [2], [3]. Here is the original section concerning the FBI files from the Elvis Presley page:

As Presley was a very popular star, the FBI had files on him of more than 600 pages.^[1] According to Thomas Fensch, the texts from the FBI reports dating from 1959 to 1981 represent a "microcosm [of Presley's] behind-the-scenes life." For instance, the FBI was interested in death threats made against the singer, the likelihood of Presley being the victim of blackmail and particularly a major extortion attempt by Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau while the star was in the Army in Germany, complaints about his public performances, a paternity suit, the theft by larceny of an executive jet which he owned and the alleged fraud surrounding a 1955 Corvette which he owned, and similar things.

The unbiased reader may ask him/herself why this passage which includes useful information has been removed by Lochdale. The same paragraph now reads: [4]. ... added at 01:28 and 02:20, 19 October 2006 by User:Onefortyone

Why mention just one specific incident unless you have an agenda? The files barely reference Landau and in no way support the contentions you have added to the page on Landu. A major extortion attempt? The "major" extortion attempt resulted in Landau getting a desultory amount for services renderedHe is, at best, a very minor figure in Preley's life and there is no need for an article about him. The extortion attempt was one of many so why list just that one? Why not mention how the files mention that internal memos suggest that J. Edgar Hoover not meet with Presley due to his long hair, clothes etc. Why focus on such a small, unimportant incident (all of 2 pages our of 663 pages) unless you have an agenda? The FBI memo suggest that Landau was mentally disturbed. In all, this "major" blackmail effort netted Landau about $400. Lochdale 02:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

We are here talking about the Wikipedia article on Griessel-Landau. Thomas Fensch, the author of the book on the FBI files on Presley, says that the Griessel-Landau case was a "major extortion attempt". Therefore it takes up much space in his book, not only 2 pages as you falsely claim. Did you read the original files? I don't think so. There you can read, "By negotiation, Presley agreed to pay Griessel-Landau $200.00 for treatments received and also to furnish him with a $315.00 plane fare to London, England. Griessel-Landau agreed to depart to England on 25 December 1959 at 19.30 hours from Frankfurt, Germany. [But] Griessel-Landau did not leave as agreed, rather returned and demanded an additional $250.00, which Presley paid. A day later Griessel-Landau made a telephonic demand for 2,000 £ for the loss of his practice which he closed in Johannesburg, South Africa prior to his departure for Bad Nauheim to treat Presley." ...added 03:09–03:16 19 October 2006 by User:Onefortyone

• If LJGL can be shown to have significance other than within a couple of pages of a balanced, reputable kilogram's-worth of Presley biography, let's see this significance. Failing that, this does indeed look like a particularly gruesome (and even unintentionally amusing) example of one editor's longterm and tiresome effort to explore anything that might possibly suggest that Presley was something other than conventionally hetero. (As if the adult users of an encyclopedia would much care.) As WP is not the NationalEnquirerPedia or HollywoodBabylonPedia, delete this presleycruft. -- Hoary 03:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • So you think the FBI files and a book dealing with these files are "NationalEnquirerPedia or HollywoodBabylonPedia". I see. This statement speaks volumes. But it is no wonder, as you were also part of the edit war. By the way, the Griessel-Landau case is indeed mentioned by Elvis biographers. ...added at 03:21–03:22, 19 October 2006 by User:Onefortyone
    • Do please sign your contributions. It's easy: "~" four times in a row. Yes, I think the laborious recycling, direct or indirect, of the fruits of J E Hoover's obsessions, is something that befits a 'Pedia of celeb trivia/sleaze. Yes, I know full well that this "case" is mentioned by the biographers. You may wish to go back and hilite the key word: mentioned. Reputable biographers don't maunder on and on about this somewhat amusing but trivial incident; they get back to the man's intermittently good music, ghastly movies, and wacky tastes in clothes and interior decoration. Yes, at one time I was indeed involved in an edit war at the Presley article. I thought that I was helping to improve it: but once a couple of people alleged that I was part of the problem, I swiftly butted out and stayed out. (As I've never been obsessed with any aspect of Presley, that was easy for me.) -- Hoary 03:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect This seems to be somewhat noteable, but not deserving of its own article. I say merge the event into the article, but be sure not to make it more than it really is. I don't know if Elvis was gay, bi, or straight... but I'm pretty sure that for any claims about his homosexuality to be notable, it's going to take more than the word of a con artist. Report the incedent, but don't use it make unfounded claims about Elvis' sexuality. AniMate 07:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per Hoary and AniMate. Its just 'Presleycruft' and undue weight. Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo 03:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It is very interesting that this newly created sockpuppet has contributed both to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elvis Presley and this page in order to support the view of User:Lochdale.

Again, please assume good faith. I am no sockpuppet, and a cheackuser will clearly prove this if your paranoia takes you that far. Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo 04:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

So as a new user you exactly know what "checkuser" is? You must have much experience with Wikipedia procedures, that's for sure.

Unser Onefortyone is [now]trying to do an end-run around deletion by trying to include this "article" in the main Presley article (which he has been unable to do in the past thus, he created the Landau article). Lochdale 01:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you please stick to the facts, Lochdale. It should be noted that I created the Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau article in order to avoid an edit war. As an alternative, I would recommend to include the following paragraph in the FBI files section of the Elvis Presley article:

As Elvis was a very popular star, the FBI had files on him of more than 600 pages.^[2] According to Thomas Fensch, the texts from the FBI reports dating from 1959 to 1981 represent a "microcosm [of Presley's] behind-the-scenes life." For instance, the FBI was interested in death threats made against the singer, the likelihood of Elvis being the victim of blackmail and particularly a "major extortion attempt" while he was in the Army in Germany, complaints about his public performances, a paternity suit, the theft by larceny of an executive jet which he owned and the alleged fraud surrounding a 1955 Corvette which he owned, and similar things.

According to one of these accounts, Elvis was the victim of Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau of Johannesburg, South Africa, who was hired by the singer in Bad Nauheim, Germany, as an alleged specialist in the field of dermatology, but had made homosexual passes at the singer and his friends. When on 24 December 1959 Presley decided to discontinue the skin treatments, Griessel-Landau endeavored to extort sums of money from the singer. According to the FBI files, Griessel-Landau "threatened to expose Presley by photographs and tape recordings which are alleged to present Presley in compromising situations." An investigation determined that Griessel-Landau was not a medical doctor. Finally, "By negotiation, Presley agreed to pay Griessel-Landau $200.00 for treatments received and also to furnish him with a $315.00 plane fare to London, England." After having "demanded an additional $250.00, which Presley paid" and a further "telephonic demand for 2,000 £ for the loss of his practice which he closed in Johannesburg", the blackmailer departed to England.

This is much shorter than the Griessel-Landau article and summarizes the main facts. Onefortyone 01:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

If you created the page to avoid an edit war then why did you keep trying to reference Landau (linked to the article you had written) on the Presley page? Why does your new edit not mention that Landau was mentally unstable? The Presley had two women with him during treatment? Regardless, this is a trivial issue (other then making read through some very boring files) and is undeserving of both an article and a mention on the Presley page. Lochdale 01:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Significantly, Lochdale endeavors to delete every reference to the case. I do not understand why. The facts are well documented and part of every Elvis biography. Onefortyone 02:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.