Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jon Levenson

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. (ESkog)^(Talk) 06:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jon Levenson

An article about this person was previously speedy deleted as a non-notable biography (A7) and it was tagged A7 after being recreated several months later. However, the article makes assertions of notability and I think that an AfD discussion should determine whether they make the subject notable enough for an article. My opinion is to delete. If the article is deleted through this AfD, it can be speedy deleted if recreated, as long as it is substantially similar. If the article is created a couple of more times, I would suggest that it be protected against recreation. The author said that he saw his name here and decided to add content. I'm guessing he meant a red link, but the only link to the article is from List of male mixed martial artists and he added it himself. Perhaps there used to be another link or he forgot that he added it in January. If the article is deleted, then I suggest deleting the entry on the list to discourage recreation. No offense is meant to the author. -- Kjkolb 08:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Delete nn. WP is also not a webhost, hope the resume gets posted elsewhere. Tychocat 09:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete still non notable Nuttah68 09:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as nn, posible vanity. Batmanand | Talk
• Delete, fails WP:BIO, Wikipedia is not a free webhost. --Coredesat 10:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, smells of vanity (see "Trivia" section), and the complete lack any online mention or reference reveals the non-notability of this person. Phædriel ♥ tell me - 12:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• I just saw my name up there and wrote a bunch of stuff. I can edit it if you think it'd be better that way.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.162.85.36 (talk • contribs).

I believe that my entry would be notable by the standards set by the MMA project on Wikipedia. "At face value, this would appear to include most professional mixed martial artists, but in practice should probably include those who have had at least one, and preferably several fights in an established professional fight promotion (e.g. not a startup promotion)." Since I have had several fights in Rage in the Cage, one of the longest running MMA shows in the United States, I would say that is noteworthy. Also I was one of the last to compete in the event before it became completely sanctioned. I would say any promotion that is about 10 years old is not a 'start up' and is pretty noteworthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jammer871 (talk • contribs).

• Comment Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts (note: I am not a member of this project) also refers to www.sherdog.com (see here) when assessing notability, which lists the subject of this article as having four bouts. The project's guidelines for notability in full are:

Wikipedia:Notability (people)#People still alive - To quote from the entry for sportspeople/athletes: "Sportspeople/athletes who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports, including college sports in the United States." At face value, this would appear to include most professional mixed martial artists, but in practice should probably include those who have had at least one, and preferably several fights in an established professional fight promotion (e.g. not a startup promotion).

Wikipedia:Google Test should also prove to be a practical test of notability.

Based on that, I personally find WP:GOOG fails for the subject of this article, and it's scraping onto the radar at best on the other criteria. In any case, I note that this article is not researched or presented using anything approaching the style guidelines of Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts (their example of style is here), so it seems to me a little bit disingenuous to then appeal to that project's standards of notability. To me, this article does not read like the profile of a notable MMA fighter, it reads like a personal web bio/resume.--DaveG12345 23:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom and above comments.--DaveG12345 23:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC) (see comment below) --DaveG12345 02:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

So you're discounting my participation in a MMA promotion that's existed for 10 years? I'm sure if I hadn't been more dedicated to my education I'd have participated in a lot more bouts. Also Sherdog isn't the most reliable database either. 3 of my fights aren't listed there. Many smaller events results were sent in, but never put up on Sherdog. Full Contact Fighter's database is more comprehensive. Also my participation in MMA has extended me into to coaching as well. I also continue to referee at local Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and submission grappling events. I've done a lot more in the sport than a lot of people who just talk about it. Maybe you don't deem it important, but I feel I've earned my stripes. If you can send me a private message, please do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jammer871 (talk • contribs). I've found several names on the list of MMA fighters who are considered profesional wrestlers and have fought with not very good results. Or of people who aren't even MMA fighters. Bruce Lee never competed in MMA, yet he's on the list. I think if you allow professional wrestlers and martial arts people who've never competed, that sets a bad precedent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jammer871 (talk • contribs).

• Comment I hear what you are saying. One suggested option is to post a message on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts explaining the situation and linking them back here? Members over there would presumably be more knowledgeable on the sport and better able to corroborate what you say. If you want me to post such a message there for you, let me know. --DaveG12345 15:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The list of MMA fighters in this encyclopedia will naturally include people who are notable in their own regard within other fields who have crossed over into MMA. This sort of thing is particularly popular and notable in Japan (where Pro Wrestlers, Sumo Wrestlers, traditional Martial Artists and comedians have all recently participated in MMA), and even in the USA there was a serious attempt to get a Joe Rogan vs Wesley Snipes fight organised within the UFC, America's highest-profile MMA event! Of course we should mention in a notable person's article if they have crossed over into MMA, even if their participation in MMA itself would not on its own make them notable. We must aim to achieve consistency as an encyclopedia here, not as if we were an MMA website. — Estarriol ^talk 07:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. TheRingess 05:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I google tested it. [1] I got 2 hits on the first oage from Sherdog and FCF. I guess the Google test works. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jammer871 (talk • contribs).

• Comment I went to put a request on Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts but saw yours was already there - but have moved it to the bottom and tried to give it more prominence per custom. I'm gonna go Neutral on this one now TBH, I feel I can't go Keep because it doesn't look like a MMA bio, but it's also unfair to go Delete either, because the subject is borderline for that MMA project. I'll leave it to others to decide on that. --DaveG12345 02:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment (as something like an expert witness, although I'm not that expert): From WP:BIO: "Sportspeople/athletes who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports, including college sports in the United States." Sherdog.com and FCFighter.com both establish that "John Levenson" (with an n) has fought in Rage in the Cage, which is the most notable promotion he's fought in. Rage in the Cage is an established MMA promotion and FCFighter lists events from it since 1998, but it is regional in character and is probably the MMA equivalent of Single A or AA minor league baseball. hateless 06:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a regional promotion and started off as such, but many fighters have moved on to the bigger events. It's become the 3rd longest running MMA event in the country, behind the UFC and I believe Extreme Challenge. Many fighters from out of state compete, and have competed, as well as several ex UFC fighters. It would be fair to be called around AA or AAA minor league baseball. I only would think that the article should stay to show that people involved in the sport on that level are actual people. I included personal stuff, like about my career, that I felt would help humanize the article. Plus I am still looking to fight again and would like to be able to expand on that. I also fought in Combat Zone in Massachussetts which is a very good show that is similar to Rage in the Cage in the sense it's helped propel many to greatness.

• Comment. As per a note I placed on the WP:MMA talk page: "I'm currently marshalling my thoughts on this one, but I'm erring on recommending delete on this one and expanding our notability standards section. When comparing RITC to my "regional" promotion, Cage Rage, I can't think of a fighter with 4 (or even 6) fights who I would write an article on who is not also, or has been, a champion at his weight class. I can think of several Cage Rage fighters who have more fights but no championship that I would consider notable. I also consider Cage Rage to have a higher (i.e. national/international level) profile than RITC."

Jon, whilst I agree that many notable fighters have fought in RITC, that does not in itself make every fighter who fights there notable; it makes the promotion notable. I think this is a debatable case that I suspect we'll use to help refine the WP:MMA notability standards, but I think it's probably going to be a delete. For now, however, please consider me Neutral on this one. — Estarriol ^talk 07:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Delete, personally I think we should only have articles on fighters who have fought in the UFC or Pride, or have at least 20 fights otherwise. I disagree with deleting his name from the list, however. Simply de-redlink it, lists are supposed to be more comprehensive than categories, i.e. they are supposed to include people's names who may not necessarily qualify for a page themselves. VegaDark 20:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.