Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was consensus to delete. Johnleemk | Talk 09:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo

~~Abstain~~ for now as nominator. I think it's possible that a case can be made for this person's notability, but I don't think it has been made, particularly for his claimed status as a philosopher. No one has responded to my question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy to see if anyone had heard of him. The only ref in the article, outside the man's own work, is a writeup in the New Yorker, which might be enough to establish him as notable as a social phenomenon even if not as a philosopher, but then the article should talk more about that and less about his philosophical claims. --Trovatore 20:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment.(Vote is further down) The article is not incredibly notable, but there's only one significant page that links to it (this one). It doesn't really hurt to keep it, and it might help some random undergrad student somewhere at some point, so I say keep it. --Michael ^(talk)
- Comment Well, actually what I'm most concerned about is that the article depicts him as a philosopher. I'd like to know whether that's true, in some sense that doesn't apply to the homeless guy who spouts off on the street corner. Should those claims be removed, and if so, is there enough left for an article? --Trovatore 21:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. I see what you mean, and I'm not sure if there's enough left... I found an article in the Budapest Sun written about him, but if you look closely, it's an opinion article that he wrote! He's definitely borderline, but even the Flat Earth Society has a spot on here, and they produce a total of ZERO peer-reviewed publications. As long as he doesn't start listing himself in "Lists of Most Famous Philosophers" or something, I don't see the harm in leaving the page up and cleaning it up a bit. The biggest problem I see is that he's borderline Original Research. The news article doesn't do anything to help him here, but the 2 books cited might. If we can get ISBN numbers for those, and see if the publishers are actually reputable, that would help. One of the points of an encyclopedia is to be able to direct people doing research toward sources. If we can do that, then this article may be useful to someone in the future. It's very close, but I will keep my vote as a "Weak Keep". We can always re-nominate this after a few months if there's no progress. --Michael ^(talk)
Delete One article in the New Yorker does not make someone notable --RaiderAspect 23:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
- I probably should say that the article does assert that "Professor Hernadi Miklos of the Hungarian National Academy of Sciences" and "Professor Howard Robinson of Oxford" take him seriously. I don't know either of those people, nor whether the claim is true. --Trovatore 04:26, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  - It's not even a New Yorker article, since it's a "Talk of the Town" piece. I've got the Complete New Yorker at home, so I'll look it up, but my immediate suspicion is it's all tongue-in-cheek. --Calton | Talk 03:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Keep Ahem...Gentlemen...We've just about had it with all this psychological warfare against genuine intellect:
go to http://www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html and place Fenyo, Jean-Pierre in the search box, see what that leads to. Someone a few years ago had the good sense to let Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo, Philosopher become a permanent listing (or so it seemed). That particular text has found itself in over 200 World Wide Web Internet sites, mostly I-Encyclopedias, and in over a dozen languages!!! Then, lo and behold, User Trovatore, who may know quite a lot about mathematics, including Boolean Algebras (of which we know virtually nothing), notices some addendums at Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo and...like some kind of abracadabra magic...decides that this person may not even be worthy of mention. Is someone savvy at mathematics really qualified to make judgments about who is and who is not a philosopher (as opposed to a teacher of philosophy)? We think not. How about asking this of some Sociologists, Psychologists, Philosophy Professors or even some Linguists? We advocate multi-disciplinary education and research, and lament to see that very important decisions are now primarily being decided by technocrats, specialists and even mafiosi! And all this talk about "borderline"; now, seriously, just because a true and fairly wise philosopher is very likely to be an eccentric and somewhat unable to communicate in terms that most academics would prefer does not mean that she or he is borderline! So, which one of you in this debate really understands why Baruch Spinoza (1732-1766) is known to have been a great philosopher? And which one of you actually can claim to truly understand his ethics, principles, axioms, propositions and proofs?

Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo has written little about Spinoza, but he does have a fairly good understanding of his views, which in some ways were a fundamental part of what we call The Enlightenment and all worthy civilization today. The point is simply this; you can delete this man's mention, but you will not delete his unique record in the annals of New York and American history, nor the odd chance that his conclusions will be proven correct and fully applicable to the improvement of the human condition. So, tread lightly on this little pond whose ice may be thin but whose waters may be very deep indeed! Mr. & Mrs. Fenyo, and a few other persons at The Infinity Society (names available upon request)68.48.73.93 03:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Comment. I stated this in response on my Talk page, but I'll say it again here: The legitimacy of Mr. Fenyo as a philosopher is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not he is listed on Wikipedia. The policy of this encyclopedia is not to include any original research. Therefore, even if Mr. Fenyo is the next philosophic equivalent to Newton or Einstein, he cannot be listed until he has published in several reputable sources (news articles, peer-reviewed journals, etc...). I will keep my vote as a "Weak Keep" on the condition that these sources be found and cited.
  I would strongly advise against future ad hominems. We need not be philosophers in any regard to judge whether or not Mr. Fenyo has been published. Wikipedia is a place for researchers to find sources, not to explore new concepts, and while I find Mr. Fenyo's concepts very intriguing, as a loyal Wikipedian I must adhere to policy. --Michael ^(talk)
  - Ye Gods, Joe Gould has been reincarnated! --Calton | Talk 03:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment. I, Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo, am published, albeit it is true that I am not a prolific author and that most of anything published about me or by me is not likely to fit your narrow definition of "reputable"... Clearly being a true philosopher in today's world it is unlikely that The American Philosophical Society will publish me (Spinoza was not peer-reviewed!!!). That I have one major work to my name, registered in 1994 with The U.S. Library of Congress is not an indication that my views have not had an impact on world events (I could prove otherwise...if it was warranted). Wikipedia bills itself as The Free Encyclopedia, and so why should it not celebrate the free spirited philosophical ideas of The Original Free Advice Man? After all, I was the very first person in the history of Manhattan and greater New York City as a whole to actually sit out in public and hold a sign that reads FREE ADVICE and engage people in deep philosophical discussions. My wife and I, and a few of my colleagues, are totally baffled by the odd manner in which this is all taking place. Oh, sure(!), we would concurr on deleting the mention of some ego-maniac with nothing relevant to say and without any real intellectual track-record or publication. So... for the time beign this is all we will say... and this business of using the qualifier "strongly advise against"...something one might expect from an unethical psychiatrist or demagogue...does not meet the high standards you claim to adhere to. I weakly advise you against trampling on the life of one whose only interest is to make the world a better, more intelligent, educated and wiser place (not just for the privileged few, the highly accredited elite, but for all people). Per me questo non mi fa molto piacere, ma io penso que oggi gli vero intelectuali sonno una minorita sensa voce al mundo.Cosa che? The Flat Earth Society deserves mention, but a real life philosopher struggling to survive in this world full of serious disconnects!!! What gives???68.48.73.93 04:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Sources:

http://www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html <<< Library of Congress search, Fenyo, Jean-Pierre (Ady, author, Infinitism (no...not the mathematical one), Secret Key To The Doors Of Wisdom, registered (01/31/94) and copyrighted (01/28/1994), author on the entire text on his philosophy. It is this book upon which an improved version, The Most Important Thought (Silver Aleph, 2004, Fenyo Copyright <<< special relief granted by factor of prior copyright).
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Annotations/INFINITY.1.html <<< Prof. Heylighen would not have allowed this brief to have been published on The Principia Cybernetica site unless he knew the merits of my views. Principia Cybernetica is highly regarded.
If you can get a copy of MARQUI's Who's Who In The World 2000 (17th, the Millennium Edition) then my listing is there clearly denotes me as being a philosopher.
Some early U.S. TV interviews:
- WNBC-TV4 New York, Interviewed by Lloyd Kramer (see "Five People You Meet When You Go To Heaven", a movie I believe he co-wrote and directe), May 12, 1987. Location: corner of Bleecker Street & 7th Avenue South, Manhattan. Initial recording time est. 1 hour 20 minutes (BETAMAX VIDEO TAPING), air-time est. 5 minutes. Show: Live At Five with Sue Simmons. Requested a copy several times, on file but not released.
- WABC-TV7 New York,Interviewed by Local News Head Anchor Bill Beutel, July 29, 1988. Location: outside WABC-TV7 station building at 7 Lincoln Plaza, Manhattan. Initial recording time est. 25 minutes (MEDIA: BETAMAX), air-time est. 5 minutes. Show: local news hour. Requested a copy...no response.
- WJZ-13 Baltimore, Interviewed live sattelite link-up on the Morning Show. October 11, 1991. 5 minutes.
- FOX-45 Baltimore, Interviewed (taped) by Cameraman/Photographer Bill Sawyer over 5 minutes. March 27, 1992.
- TNN-Cable, National, Interviewed in Baltimore live sattelite link-up by Al Wyntor on Videomorning show. 3 minutes.
U.S. articles (just some):
- The New Yorker,Aug. 17, 1987 (you already know the details).
- Baltimore City Paper, July 19, 1991. Five columns, full page article.
- The Los Angeles Times, May 19, 1993.
- The Afro-American, July 10, 1993.
Hungarian TV (some):
- TV-2, first privately owned major commercial TV-Channel (, 15 minutes on a morning talk show and a whole human interest story-piece 22 minutes (4 times, exact dates on record, 1994, 1996, 2000, 2004).
- SZIV-TV small, independent cable channel... Provided on air philosophical and love advice on 3 consecutive 1 hour segments.
- MTV-1 & 2 Interviewed a few times about my grandfather and my own work.
- RTL-KLUB, 15 minute segment.
Hungarian articles (some):
- 168-Ora, Two-page magazine interview, Oct. 1998.
- Kiskegyed, Two-page magazine interview, Nov. 1994.
- Kurir, One whole-page newspaper interview, Oct. 15, 1994.
- Irodalom es Elet, half-page letter, Sept. 1998.

and I could go on... but that's enough for now.

More recently I have not been in the media...quite my choice, as I am busy making The Infinity Society into a more successful organization and I'd rather get media attention again when I feel the quality of attention will be there.

The article in The Budapest Sun was significant because it came within days of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, and being the only serious English language daily in Hungary I knew my views would have an impact on ex-pats, including top U.S. government officials and military officials, as well as on any American ex-pats who might have decided to take out their hurt on relatively innocent people of Arab or Muslim (or Sikh, Bahaii, whatever..wearing turbans) background and what I said needed to be said in due time. It also let certain people know more or less where I stood on this all, since I was known for my behind-the-scene Middle East Peace activities (I was just one small part of the process that lead to the then secret Oslo Accords...my being Jewish and my mother having divorced my & my brother's father and married a Pal. arab). Complicated it sounds...but my views are cleverly devised. I will be launching a media campaign for The Infinity Society within a few months...perhaps sooner.

Anyway...that's all for now...68.48.73.93 05:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. In light of the new citations on here (which we should move to the article and verify at some point), I have changed my vote from "Weak Keep" to "Keep." I still strongly advise against ad hominems is because it is Wikipedia policy to not make personal attacks (in particular against the only person so far to vote in your favor?!). The condescending tone in which you write is neither helpful nor appropriate, as you should assume good faith on the part of the Wikipedia community, even when they are listing your article for deletion). Further, it would be great if you registered an account on here, as many of our philosophical articles (including Spinoza!) could benefit from your input, and it would be a demonstration of your interest in making Wikipedia better. Finally, I would weakly advise that you check out all the Wikipedia Official Policies (there are many, and they are sometimes boring to read, however they are the backbone of this encyclopedia). As a registered user, you can talk with the admins about revising any policy you disagree with, and improve Wikipedia for everyone. --Michael ^(talk) 12:54, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. To All Whom It May Concern: Mr. Jimmy Wales has written the following very brief but suggestive response (to an e-mail letter that follows it {note that I have included the Yahoo! pre-text}):

Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:44:01 -0500 From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales@wikia.com> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert To: "Jean-Pierre Fenyo" <admin@infinitysociety.org> Subject: Re: Some Verifiable Facts Concerning A Philosopher Facing Wikiletion. I recommend you post all this to the relevant debate in Wikipedia?

Jean-Pierre Fenyo wrote:

Dear Mr. Wales or "Jimbo" if you so prefer,

First of all, allow me to qualify what I am about to say: in no way is my intention or that of any persons related to me or associated with my organization to disrespect the need for Wikipedia to adhere to the professional standards common to all encyclopedias (printed or otherwise).

I am a philosopher (whose mention within Wikipedia has been around for years and is now being threatened for deletion by persons who may not be sufficiently qualified to make the correct decision). This fact is attested to an verifiable by referring to the following sources:

1. (The earliest mention) A write-up in The New Yorker magazine of August 17, 1987 in The Talk of the Town, pages 18-19. The article clearly illustrates that I have a philosophical socratic approach to issues (personal and otherwise). The article can be found by paging down this site http://www.loc.gov/catdir/samples/hm041/2003047837.html . It was re-printed in Alec Wilkinson's book "Mr. Apology and other essays" (Houghton Miflin 2003).

2. (My book). In 1994 I was granted a copyright for my first book "Infinitism: Secret Key To The Doors of Wisdom" by the U.S. Library of Congress register of copyrights. go to http://www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html and search for my full name Fenyo, Jean-Pierre Ady or without Ady (my middle name). This book expresses my ideas on the penultimate practical social benefits of contemplating the infinite. A revised/expanded version was published in Hungary under the titlte "The Most Important Thought" (Silver Aleph, 2004).

3. My ideas gained recognition by Prof. Heylighen and his Principia Cybernetica site at http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Annotations/INFINITY.1.html in 1999. Principia Cybernetica speaks for itself!

4. MARQUI's Who's Who In The World 17th Edition (2000), also known as The Millenniun Edition, has me listed as a philosopher. (Not proof that I am a philosopher, but worthy of pointing out.)

5. Prof. Hernadi, Miklos of The Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Head of the Book & Periodical Publishing Board, Director of Public Relations, a Sociologist, wrote a letter of support in favor of the publishing of my book in which, among other noteworthy things, he states "The author has managed to bring about a highly noteworthy intellectual breakthrough. Through his analytic approach he had managed to reconcile the Eastern, non-linear concept of the infinite with the West's rational and linear expression of the infinite into one amalgam thought..." and "...the author manages to evade those typical traps that are often faced by philosophers." Prof. Hernadi may be reached for comment at priroda@office.mta.hu

6. More than forty articles, interviews and write-ups have been published about me since 1987 (not a lot by certain standards, but no small accomplishment for someone who was behind some major company's adoption of the word, logo (or idea of INFINITY for their product line(s) (Infiniti, SBC, Infinity Broadcasting, etc.) ). Virtually all of them recognize me as a philosopher (some are in Hungarian: Fenyõ Jean-Pierre Ady is the searchable name for some of those).

7. OR if need be contact Prof. Howard M. Robinson at (011-36-1) 342-2307 (both people are phonable between 0900 and 1500 GMT...to be safe...and not on major holidays). Prof. Howard Robinson's info. can be found at www.ceu.hu/phil/robinson/index, he is the Head of the Dept. of Philosophy at The Central European University in Budapest, and an epistemological researcher of the most serious kind. I am sure he will acknowledge that I am a philosopher, albeit not an accredited teacher of philosophy (no PhD. in my titles...although I did get an honorary one).

8. An article in The Budapest Sun, link at http://www.budapestsun.com/full_story.asp?ArticleId={EA1E05579F18425EA6F80AE49736E156}&From=News http://www.budapestsun.com/full_story.asp?ArticleId={EA1E05579F18425EA6F80AE49736E156}&From=News

The article in The Budapest Sun was significant because it came within days of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, and being the only serious English language daily in Hungary I knew my views would have an impact on ex-pats, including top U.S. government officials and military officials, as well as on any American ex-pats who might have decided to take out their hurt on relatively innocent people of Arab or Muslim (or Sikh, Bahaii, whatever..wearing turbans) background and what I said needed to be said in due time. It also let certain people know more or less where I stood on this all, since I was known for my behind-the-scene Middle East Peace activities (I was just one small part of the process that lead to the then secret Oslo Accords...my being Jewish and my mother having divorced my & my brother's father and married a Pal. arab).

Complicated it sounds...but my views are cleverly devised. I will be launching a media campaign for The Infinity Society within a few months...perhaps sooner. 9. Visit my fledgling organization's web-site at www.infinitysociety.org http://www.infinitysociety.org

10. Fine...So maybe my estimation of my impact, the impact of my ideas on the world, world events, is trivial...probably so... And maybe not being recognized by formally accredited people of higher learning, PhDs in particular and those who call themselves Philosophers in specific, is grounds for my mention on Wikipedia to be deleted, but I bet you I will find thousands more who are even more worthy of deletion if we have too strict an interpretation of the rules/guidelines for inclusion.

I AM A PHILOSOPHER THEREFOR I EXIST!

Poor Spinoza; how he would have suffered in today's world (although that is quite a non-starter, because apriori it would not be THIS WORLD!)

Thanks for your precious time (if you get to this),

Best,

Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo

Philosopher

Founder & Director

The Infinity Society

I hope this helps resolve things. Wikipedia is very important to me and countless others the world-over, and one cannot find offense in any serious efforts at improving Wikipedia by maintaining high standards.

With all due respect and apologies where any misunderstandings may have arisen as a result of my imperfect communicational skills,

Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo Philosopher 68.48.73.93 01:07, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Extension Request. Admins, this article was listed on AfD just before the Thanksgiving weekend, and as such I believe it hasn't received the full attention of the philosophic community (nor a clear consensus). I request that the AfD discussion period be extended one extra week. --Michael ^(talk) 05:59, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. There's been plenty of time for someone to produce a reference to him from a legitimate philosophical publication. Gamaliel 10:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  - Commment.Gamaliel, did you see the list of references above? Some of them are Hungarian, and I can't say we're in a position to judge their legitimacy yet (I've already asked a Hungarian user to help with this AfD discussion).--Michael ^(talk) 18:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    - Even if he is considered some sort of giant in Hungarian philosophy, there would be some sort of reference to him in a standard English philosophical reference work or database. Gamaliel 21:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Support extension The references offered by Fenyo in support of the article are not available online, and thus require time to locate. --Trovatore 06:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. I noticed that in the current edited Wikipedia article on me the article about me that appeared in 1987 in The New Yorker is given the title "Talk of The Town", this is incorrect; Talk of The Town is, or was at the time, an entire section of the magazine, something akin to "Currently In The News"... The article had the short title of "Answers". I will now take another look and see if I can find any other items that need correction or clarification. J.P. Fenyo 68.48.73.93 09:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Feyno does indeed have a Marquis Who's Who entry, and it does indeed identify him as a "philosopher". But that just means that he filled out a Who's Who biographical form and wrote "philosopher" in the appropriate blank. Forget TV appearances, does he appear in any legitimate philosophical publication as a philosopher? He appears to be closer to the Naked Cowboy than to Socrates. He may barely qualify as a sort of notable curiosity, but the article as it stands is an obvious delete. Gamaliel 10:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment. Here is how I think it should read:

Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo (b. July 23, 1964) is an American-born philosopher and advocate of Infinitism (not the mathematical aspect but the cosmological). Fenyo was born and currently lives in Washington, D.C., and at age 23 gained his first major exposure in the press, when he was written up in The New Yorker by Alec Wilkinson, in an article titled "Answers" in The Talk of the Town section, published on August 17, 1987, (p. 18-19). This and subsequent media coverage (both television and print) brought him minor fame and recognition as "The Original New York City Free Advice Man", offering socratic dialogue and advice to passersby. From his early childhood on he travelled, mostly with his parents, throughout four continents, visiting some sixty countries and residing in eight (including Great Britain, Spain, and his father’s native Hungary). This experience afforded him a very liberal and yet worldly education which is reflected in the fact that he is fluent in several languages and has a significant understanding of world cultures and international affairs. And it was his experiences gained while living in Beirut, Lebanon for two years, his 12th and 13th, that contrasted so sharply with his liberal American and European upbringing and life before and after. Given his Jewish roots (he speaks of himself as being a scientifically m minded spiritual Jew) and the fact that his father was a researcher at The National Archives in the mid-60s involved in documenting NAZI atrocities and The Holocaust as well as World War Two in general (Prof. Mario Denis Fenyo, Historian), the extent and degree of his concern for the future security and intellectual welfare of humanity, minorities and individuals is well beyond average. His more creative side flourished throughout the 1980s, whilst living in New York City (mainly in Manhattan) and being, among other things, a poet, short-fiction writer, journalist, and even for a brief time a stand-up comic. It was during those years that he became close acquaintances with celebrity artists and intellectuals such as Andy Warhol, Keith Haring, Jean Basquiat, Mark Kostabi and Quentin Crisp. Not having had the opportunity to earn a PhD and with only a few years of formal college and university level education Fenyo is more of an auto-didactic intellectual thinker who has made a living doing everything from working as an Assistant-Executive Chef to translating poems by Miklos Radnoti from Hungarian to English to working as an overnight security guard to teaching English (E.S.L.). All of which makes his worldview relatively unique and original. He has also been involved in handling the legacy of his grandfather, the famous Hungarian writer and intellectual Max (Miksa) Fenyo (1877-1972), with whom he spent countless hours as a child. During nearly a decade long period when Fenyo resided primarily in Budapest (visiting Southern California and Washington, D.C. on several occassions) he was interviewed regularly on TV and in major magazines and newspapers, mostly for his own views, as well as his involvement in the production and publication of the first fully searchable CD-ROM encyclopedia of the NYUGAT (Hungarian for WEST), Hungary’s most significant literary and social review (1908-1941), of which is grandfather was a founder and editor. In 1994 Fenyo wrote his first book, Infinitism: Secret Key to the Doors of Wisdom which covers some of his initial philosophical ideas concerning the infinite and infinity as a concept for non-violent, mass socio-psychological change. Fenyo's ideas are an evolution of those held by such greats as Bruno Giordano and Baruch Spinoza. In his book; "The Most Important Thought" (Silver Aleph, 2004), which he wrote while living in Budapest (1994-2004), he argues that only by making contemplation of the infinite popular will humanity become sufficiently wise so as to be able to reverse and eventually overcome the threats to social and environmental stability and progress. Fenyo concludes that wisdom can be attained by open-minded, long-term oriented, deep thinking, which he claims are stimulated by contemplating the infinite. Fenyo is also an advocate of the idea that society would be better off if it would popularize philosophical discourse and debate on a massive scale. According to Professor Hernadi Miklos of the Hungarian National Academy of Sciences Fenyo's philosophical insight into the penultimate practical applications and implications of thinking about infinity is nothing but revolutionary and a breakthrough in the effort to reconcile the Western linnear and the Eastern non-linnear expressions of infinity as a philosophical concept. Professor Howard Robinson of Oxford, an Epistomoligal researcher, has found Fenyo's arguments interesting and worthy of consideration but not conclusive. In 1988 he began the creation of a small, fledgling grass-roots organization he founded and named The Society for the Mass Dissemination of the Concept of Infinity, a.k.a. The Infinity Society, whose purpose is to promote public awareness of the concept of infinity.

Fenyo's book Infinitism: Secret Key to the Doors of Wisdom is registered with the United States Library of Congress as a philosophical work.

(NOTE: I can and will, if asked, mail, to whomever is most reputable and concerned about this issue, photo-copies and/or digital pictures of all articles, documents (including expired passports dating from as early as 1971), and other relevant matterials as verifiable proof of all the above statements of fact.) J.P. Fenyo 68.48.73.93 11:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. To Everyone Here Thus Far (Users Trovatore, MikeTwo, Calton, etc.): This is getting to be a bit too much gentlemen! User Gemaliel has definitely breached Wikipedia's rules of conduct. To his above entry I sent him (at his own User page) the following:

"Regarding your comment concerning my case (Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo): I find it quite perplexing that you have attempted to defame my name by pointing out something obvious, namely that MARQUI's Who's Who (of any category) does send out queries, and does ask such details, but only to later verify them before publication. The fact that you do not seem to know this seems to show that you are either less professional than you would have us believe or not entirely absent of malice. Furthermore, to compare me to Naked Cowboy as opposed to Socrates is definitely defamatory. I happen to be very involved in the American Jewish world, as a Jew myself, and I may yet have you investigated for any prejudices you might harbor against any persons, ethnicities or other, in case I may have to seek legal remedies. I take this whole matter very seriously and I sincerely hope that you have made a serious mistake and intend to reconsider matters. Besides, I see that you do not appreciate my views on the social ramifications of contemplating the infinite, or so it would seem. It was not more than two years ago that I had to leave Hungary because of rising anti-semitism in Europe and threats against me in particular by the extreme right-wing in Hungary (for speaking out openly against prejudice towards the Roma community in Hungary and for helping topple, via my statements in the media, on TV, the virulently anti-Semitic, zenophobic, anti-Arab government of Viktor Orban and FIDESZ. Anyway, I find your seemingly reactionary manners suspicious to say the least. My advice to you sir is: be more scientific and cautious in your assertions and statements, for in the end your very reputation at Wikipedia could be at stake!"

To what ends has this man seen it fit to mock my intellectual worth so brutishly?!? I see that he has a certain "special" status...and I don't find his lack of manners towards my person one bit amusing. And, more importantly, just how far can this whole conflagration of sorts go on??? I think this should stop at once, and all the decent persons involved should make their deliberations final and conclusive. If you delete my mention then I grant you there will come a time when you will feel rather ashamed for having trivialised the ideas and worth of a human-being not much unlike Baruch Spinoza or for that matter "Yakov Bok", the main character in Bernard Malamud's famous novel "The Fixer" (first published in 1966) and later made into a major motion picture. At one point in the story, which involves direly false accusations against Yakov by anti-Semites under the rule of the last Tsar of Russia (a relatively simple but kind-hearted aspirant), B.A. Bibikov, the Investigating Magistrate for Cases of Extraordinary Importance, is talking to Yakov Bok about his interest in a book by Spinoza and this is what is written (that is of relevance to my own concerns): The magistrate smiled. Yakov snickered but caught himself and stopped. (Then spoke the magistrate>) "Is such a thing as you describe it, true freedom, would you say, or cannot one be free without being politically free?" (To which Bok, the fixer, thinks to himself the following) Here's where I better watch my step, the fixer thought. No use fanning up hot coals when you have to walk across them. (He then cautiously replies) "I wouldn't know for sure your honour. It's partly one and partly the other." (The magistrate>) "True enough. One might say there is more than one conception of freedom in Spinoza's mind - in Necessity, philosophically speaking; and practically, in the state, that is to say within the realm of politics and political action. Spinoza conceded a certain freedom of political choice, similar to the freedom of electing to think, if it were posssible to make these choices. At least it is possible to think them. He perhaps felt that the purpose of the state - the government - was the security and comparative freedom of rational man. This was to permit man to think as best he could. He also thought man was freer when he participated in the life of society than when he lived in solitute as he himself did. He thought that a free man in society had a positive interest in promoting the happiness and intellectual emancipation of his neighbours." (Yakov>) "I guess that's true your honor if you say so", said Yakov, "but as far as I myself an concerned what you said is something to think about, though if you're poor your time is taken up with other things that I don't have to mention. You let those who can worry about the ins and outs of politics." "Ah," Bibikov sighed. He puffed on his cigarette without speaking. For a moment there was no sound in the cell (prison cell). (Yakov thinks to himself>)Did I say something wrong? Yakov thought wildly. There are times it doesn't pay to open your mouth. When the magistrate spoke again he sounded like an investigating official, his tone dry, objective. "Have you ever heard the expression 'historical necessity'?" (Yakov relies>) "Not that I remember. I don't think so though maybe I could guess what it means." (The magistrate>) "Are you sure? You've not read Hegel?" (Yakov>) "I don't know his name." (The magistrate>) "Or Karl Marx? He too was a Jew, though not exactly happy to be one." (Yakov>) "Not him either." (The magistrate>) "Would you say you have a 'philosophy' of your own? If so, what is it?" (Yakov>) "If I have it's all skin and bones. I've only just come to a little reading, your honour," he apologized, "If I have any philosophy , if you don't mind me saying so, it's that life could be better than it is." (The magistrate>) "Yet how can it be made better if not in politics or through it?" That's a sure trap, Yakov thought. "Maybe by more jobs and work," he faltered. "Not to forget good will among men. We all have to be reasonable or what's bad gets worse." "Well that's at least a beginning," the magistrate said quietly. "You must read and reflect further." "I will, just as soon as I get out of here". (<<<says Yakov Bok, having no clue as to the further horrors that will come his way!) And I am somewhere the mix of a Yakov Bok and a Benedict Spinoza. Too bad Edward Said, a late acquaintance of mine, is not around to raise hell about this. Disabuse yourself Gemaliel of the notion that I will look up such great words from such fine writers as Bernard Malamud just to entertain you. J.P. Fenyo 68.48.73.93 12:47, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. J.P., chill out. For one, you are always to assume good faith on Wikipedia. That you would charge him with being "not entirely absent of malice" immediately is unecessary. Just because someone thinks the article doesn't have enough reputable sources doesn't say anything about their opinions or bias towards the subject matter or the author. A simple "Hey Gemaliel, did you know that MARQUI's Who's Who verifies their information before publication?" would suffice.
If this page did not have nearly 6000 words on it (4700 of which you wrote!), he might find it easier to see the list of sources you posted -- in fact he probably missed them! Those sources are not currently in the article, so he's right to say that "the article as written is a delete." Any uncited uncommon information (such as your theories) can always be challenged and deleted. Click that last sentence to see the policy itself.

I reiterate again that your intellectual worth is still irrelevant to this discussion, and that you are only hurting your case by attacking every Wikipedian who sees a BADLY written, UNCITED encyclopedia article (ARTICLE, not IDEA) and wants to remove it. Instead of taking it personal (it's not) and trying to disrupt the process because you feel priveleged, go rewrite the article and properly cite everything! Nobody can or will argue with valid citations!

So, in summary:
- Trying to change the process with "I think this should stop at once... " is silly - because it won't happen. Wikipedia policy trumps the passing thoughts of a user who won't even take the time to register.
- Trying to argue that you are worthy enough to be included without providing sources won't work, because without verification an article about a person is considered vanity.
- Trying to argue that your ideas are unique and special, and therefore should have a place won't work because that's considered original research, which is prohibited.
- Taking everything personal and counterattacking goes against the policy of assuming good faith, and, frankly, is childish. If anything the vast majority here are apathetic to your ideas, and are only concerned with where and how they've been published.
- I will not change my vote (since right now it is basically the only one in your favor), but your page-long rants are not helping. Calm...down... Even if the article is deleted, there are many many channels and processes through which you can get it undeleted. Crying "wolf" to Jimbo and trying to circumvent these processes just makes you look devious. Let me state plainly: Wikipedians are not stupid. If you have published in reputable sources, they will be cited and the article will be kept. If not, it will be deleted. All other matters are irrelevant.
  --Michael ^(talk) 18:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the Naked Cowboy is pretty cool, so that wasn't intended as an insult, just a way of pointing out that standing on the street corner giving out advice makes you an urban curiosity, not a philosopher. A mention in Who's Who doesn't make you a philosopher either. Even if the result of this AFD is keep, the article will be significantly rewritten. Since all of the sources on you we've managed to find refer to you as a guy on the street corner, that is what the article will say. Additions from you personally which cannot be substantiated by other sources will be removed under the rule Wikipedia:No original research. See Wikipedia:Autobiography for more information.

We've been content to let you engage in your campaign of self-promotion thus far. However, veiled accusations of anti-Semitism and legal threats will not be tolerated. If you continue to engage in such disruptive behavior, your IP address will be temporarily blocked.

I'm sorry if anything I or anyone else has said has offended you, but we have rules and standards that we follow, which Miketwo and others have attempted to patiently explain to you. We're not going to toss them out the window because of screens of text spam or ridiculous legal threats. Gamaliel 21:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment. It is to my inestimable fortune that I have contacted a number of "outside" parties and sources of information during the past day or so, many of whom are of the opinion that Wikipedia, based on more recent revelations, is no longer considered the benchmark of Internet encyclopedic reference sources (as it still should be...but, well, it is almost to be excpected that when a good idea gets to big really big the quality is evermoreso at risk). As I stated before (in different words), it will only be a loss to Wikipedia and its many fine USERs and visitors if my mention is deleted. For what it was all worth; at least I have found another threat to intellectual freedom and thus to the rights of all persons. Some of you seem to be fairly constructive sorts, but there are those of you who know next to nothing about real philosophers and what philosophy has always been about (at least this would seem to be the case; given that those in question seem to imply that a philosopher today has to be extensively published in academic journals and would therefor have to hold a PhD.). Last but not least, this obviously highly elitist prejudice against persons who sit out in public and engage people in philosophical discourse can only be the mark of someone who has yet to experience the real suffering of humanity (as I have). Again, some of you seem to be very well intended and to those persons I felt obliged to defend myself, my ideas and my noteworthyness. To those in the contrary probably anything I would try to communicate would be pointless (as it is the conclusion of several colleagues gathered around me at this table that such persons are by no means qualified to have been working on Wikipedia, in as much as Wikipedia is what it purports itself to be.) To Jimmy Wales, who may have a fair set of reasons for allegedly accepting resources from Bomis.com(which might be entirely legitimate and mind you I do not know to this be a fact conclusively nor would I necessarily consider this totally unnaceptable given the nature of information-control today), I wish only that he will find a way to better insure the reputability of his otherwise highly remarkable accomplishment. To MikeTwo I have a special addendum: be kind to those who have walked the road less travelled, for some day you will want to look back and know that IT was all very real, meaningful, and, last but not least, appreciated. So,I bid you all bon nuit et adieu. "Wikipedia...The Free Encyclopedia" (not the "PhD.s and other vetted persons" encyclopedia.). Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo, Philosopher, Founder & Director of The Infinity Society, Washington, D.C., co-signed Colleagues of The Infinity Society (Andy E., Marianne, Joseph L.), Mrs. Katalin Fenyo.68.48.73.93 22:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

delete NN bio Pete.Hurd 07:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete and remove redirect and all references . I checked out a bunch of the sources. I had given this guy the benefit of the doubt, but I can't find a single one that refers to him as a philosopher. The vast majority refer to him as "The Free Advice Man" - an urban curiosity. My vote has changed to Delete, unless this article experiences a major rewrite to come in line with what others say about him. Here are some notable quotes:
The LA Times, May 19, 1993:

"Listen up, L.A.: Jean-Pierre Fenyo, who calls himself the Original New York City Free Advice Man, swung through L.A. the other day. We had never heard of his curbside service but he referred us to a 1987 New Yorker piece that said he "has given advice to about 6,000 people, only four of whom were dissatisfied.""ref

and the text from Houghton Mifflin:

"The young man responsible for the slightly perceptible knot in pedestrian traffic at the northeast corner of Bleecker Street and Seventh Avenue is Jean- Pierre Fenyo, The Free Advice Man. "ref

Finally, the Annotation in Principia Cybernetica is not an accomplishment -- read their description of annotations:

"Annotations are non-refereed comments to particular pages, entered freely by users, and published automatically to the Web... Annotations are not in any way evaluated or selected. Any text entered by a user is automatically and immediately published on our webserver, and linked into the annotated page (in the lower part of the side bar, under the header "Discussion"), and into the general list of all User Annotations. The editors are therefore not responsible for, or will not in general agree with, the text in an annotation."ref

These aren't reputable sources! And even if they were, they don't call him a philosopher! He may have interesting ideas, but they have not been published, and should not appear on Wikipedia as per no original research policy. --Michael ^(talk) 18:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment

There are nowadays professors of philosophy, but not philosophers. Yet it is admirable to profess because it was once admirable to live. To be a philosopher is not merely to have subtle thoughts, nor even to found a school, but so to love wisdom as to live according to its dictates, a life of simplicity, independence, magnanimity, and trust. It is to solve some of the problems of life, not only theoretically, but practically. Thoreau

-- Conf 20:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

- I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Is it that Fenyo may (for all we know) be an admirable person who lives as a philosopher? Could be. Having a page on WP is not about being "admirable"; despicable people have them precisely for the things that made them despicable. --Trovatore 20:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  - I probably should have formatted my post as a response to the delete vote above, the concern of which seems to me to involve a question of Mr. Fenyo's certain unworthiness to be called a philosopher... Conf 21:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    - As it relates to the issue before us, the question is not whether he is a philosopher, but whether we can verify his notability as a philosopher, via independent and reputable sources. --Trovatore 21:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
      - If the words "....a philosopher...." and then "....as a philosopher...." had been left out, this would have been the exact Wikipedia policy as I know it, even with the damn verifiablity issue mentioned. I agree I comment on an issue which may even be irrelevant, but then had the preceding poster not done so at greater length? Conf 22:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
        
        My point was not to say he's not a philosopher in spirit or practice (or whatever). My point was that he's not a verifiable philosopher, by Wikipedia's definition of verifiable, and that the sources he cites as proof of his verifiability are pretty bogus overall. To be a philosopher may be all those things you state ("to love wisdom...etc etc..."), but to be a philosopher on Wikipedia one must found a school, publish a book, or have opinions that a great number of people take seriously and write about independently. It is not just appearing in "Talk of the Town" articles, annotating Philosophic websites, registering an unpublished book, buying a web address, and calling yourself a "philosopher" to the Who's Who publishers.
        Finally, Conf, the "Wikipedia policy" you cite is actually only a proposed policy, and you should pay attention to the words near the top that say "References or links to this page should not describe it as "policy". --Michael ^(talk) 23:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
        
        Shouldn't the point be not whether Fenyo is "a verifiable philosopher" (whatever it means), but whether he is verifiably notable.
        As for the proposed not-a-policy, reference to which did not accompany Trovatore's assertion, what makes the assertion true. I suppose the word notability, repeated incessantly all over Wikipedia, is not merely an abbreviation of "proposed concept of notability". Conf 00:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

CommentGentlemen & Not-So-Gentle Men (hey, where are the women??). So, there it is. We've come to one of the biggest weaknesses of Wikipedia, namely the inability to recognize the worthyness of philosophers whose public recognition as such happens to have taken place in ANOTHER LANGUAGE (Hungarian in my case). More than a dozen articles and TV/radio interviews in Hungarian, at a time when Hungarian media usage of, and long-term storage/retrieval on, the Internet was minimmal at best (no thanks to over 45 years of post-Stalinist Russian Imperialism disguised as Socialism...only to be followed by ruthless Wild-West-style capitalism without sufficient welfare protection). SO THERE IT IS: THE ALLEGED PHILOSOPHER CANNOT FURNISH US ARTICLES IN HUNGARIAN OVER THE INTERNET THAT HONOR HIM WITH THE TITLE "PHILOSOPHER". But, if Trovatore wanted it, I could post him photocopies of some of those articles in which the Hungarian equivalent of philosopher is clearly how I am defined (filozofus). That the Hungarian Wikipedia does not yet have an article on me may have something to do with the mind-set and socio-political leanings of the Hungarians who can afford the time to be involved. And I will readily admit that the vast majority of Hungarians today dislike me...because I was very critical of their tendencies to be zeno-phobic and even to be somewhat racist, in particular towards the Roma (Gypsies), Jews (like me) and blacks who are not supermodels, movie stars or gangsta-rap-'artists'. So, IF (and note that I mean "if") this is what Wikipedia is all about then I, as a true philosopher and not a university-level teacher/academic of philosophy, do not want to be mentioned on Wikipedia at all! For then Wikipedia cannot be considered worthy of true philosophers, other genuine intellectuals and I will not consent then to being mocked as an "urban curiosity" (to quote someone here). What follows is my response to USER: conf., who deserves the very best that life can offer. Vivre le resistance contra la mediocracie! Touchet!

++ Greetings. Your words are infinitely precious to me! And to quote Henry David Thoreau, in reference to my case, is almost like having an invitation extended to the two of us to join him at Walden Pond. Then again,dying of influenza is not such a pleasant experience. How kind and compassionate your words. As per practical deeds: I do try to live up to my own set of principles, ethics, values and morals, but I would be insolently dishonest were I to claim to be so fortunate, yet I have risked my life, turned down great matterial wealth (that would somehow have been at the expense of others) and blown plenty a whistle when it became obvious to me that was the only correct manner to act. My words and ideas helped topple a zeno-phobic, anti-Semitic, anti-Roma, racist, corrupt, elitist government administration in Hungary (Orban, Viktor and his lunatic FIDESZ); my consultations with Israelis, Palestinians, fellow American-Jews, Jordanians (not Palestinian citizens of Jordan) and others, behind the scenes, during the days of the secrete Oslo meetings (though I was not in Oslo at the time, but in New York City, Baltimore, and Washington, D.C.) all helped improve the chances for an eventual resolution of this most dire of world conflicts; and my many interviews and statements in public advocating thinking about the BIG PICTURE (Infinity, Life, Death, Existence, Love, Truth, Awe, etc.) have had some inestimable chain-reaction impact. So have the writings of Philip K. Dick, Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, and countless others. That one of these unofficiated editors should point out that that most of the media coverage has never called me a philosopher per se, yet by my very actvitity of philosophizing (as described in these articles and snippets, is a sad sign of our mad times. They should read your comment with great attention. A philosopher does what I do: 1) Ask questions, almost incessantly, like; why do we enjoy things...what is the meaning of happiness and joy?; why are some things, like Strawberries and Raspberries to me, so tasty and pleasing to our senses and others not?; how is it that we sense we exist even as nothing physical that makes up our brain-bodies is made up of anything truly stable enough to keep its absolute integrity for longer than fractions of a second?; why do so few people (or so it would seem), like myself, find such appreciation in being able to see colors and feel textures, perceive the relatively natural elements of our world and know, even then, that such an experience is fleeting and will end to our personal character's knowledge at the time our non-physical essential beings depart our lifeless brain-bodies?; and I could go on... That these technocrats, specialists, elitistic persons (oh, how I resent having to label persons whose outer lives have so imprisoned their true inner selves!) should fail to realize that publishing/expressing in public one's own deep thoughts about things relatively uncommon is the highest mark and proof of being a true philosopher is all so typical of our times. (Funny thing is this; had they been able to get hold of the articles, interviews, etc. about me that were published in Hungary in Hungarian they would not be able to jump their proverbial gun of assumed conviction regarding no media claims to my being a philosopher!!! After all, my first book was only published in 1994, just before I left to live in Hungary for a decade, and from which I have barely returned to my native Washington, D.C.!!!) I had hoped to stop responding to their attacks, but for whatever it is worth I am going to let them know about this one. Last but not least, I would very much appreciate it if you would be so kind as to establish a direct line of communication between us (admin@infinitysociety.org). With warm gratitude and may the force be with you, J.P. Fenyo & The Infinity Society 68.48.73.93 23:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not here to blaze brave new trails in human thought. Wikipedia is not here to distinguish "true" philosophy from stale academic philosophy. We are here to summarize existing human knowledge compiled from legitimate mainstream sources. If you are not generally recognized as a philosopher by the philosophical community (and not Who's Who or Hungarian television), then we cannot report as fact that you are generally recognized as a philosopher. When dealing with non-English language topics, availablity of legitimate sources is a challenge, but it is not one we can overcome simply by taking your word or anyone else's word for it. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Cite your sources. Gamaliel 23:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Proof Fenyõ Jean-Pierre Ady <<< place this is Yahoo!'s main search and you will find something interesting. A colleague of mine has just contacted me from Budapest and he suggests that all concerned should go to [[1]] and scroll down a bit and on the right-hand side you will find me identified as a "tudomanyos filozofus" !!! That there are so few Internet mentions is not surprising as I have explained before. Hooray for all the few decent Hungarians left today! J.P. Fenyo, still a philosopher and counting... The Infinity Society 68.48.73.93 23:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Proof Just in case someone finds it hard go to [[2]]. J.P. Fenyo, philosopher to a P 68.48.73.93 00:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I have invited eight native Hungarian Wikipedians (found using the Babel language category) to help with this AfD. If none of them show up, I'll invite eight more. --Michael ^(talk) 00:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Acknowledged Probably some of those invited Hungarian Wikipedians will "show up", but knowing other Hungarians as I do it does not mean they will speak in my favor. Hungarians, in general (there plenty of exceptions), are among the most cautious and skeptical people on Earth. This is much due to the nature of the Hungarian language and the cross-cultural phenomena that arises from their linguistic isolation. Which, aside from a diet that has too much Paprika, grease, salt, oil and sugar, is probably a major factor in why Hungary still has one of the highest suicide rates in the world! That and the unfortunate resurgence of virulent anti-Semitism which I estimate infects one in three non-Jewish Hungarians does not give me much reason for hope. Few Hungarians will admit that anti-Semitism has become a problem, once more, in Hungary and the Hungarian expatriate world. Nevertheless, most Hungarians are fairly decent folk and perhaps I will be lucky. J.P. Fenyo 68.48.73.93 00:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete Here comes along a hungarian. One of those "most cautious and skeptical people on Earth". This is anti-nationalism, or what? As I am currently in Lyon, and lived half my life around the globe (due to my father), I can only comment on this guy. Though I regularly read hungarian newspapers, I never ever heard of his name. But some notes on published stuff:
- Kurir, One whole-page newspaper interview, Oct. 15, 1994. - this is like being publised in The Sun, in London. You can get published if you stood on your head for 10 hours straight.
- Kiskegyed, Two-page magazine interview, Nov. 1994. - The same applies here, except you have to be a woman doing the same feat
- 168-Ora, Two-page magazine interview, Oct. 1998. - This is the magazine of the socialist party in hungary - not too bad, but not anything amazing.
- Irodalom és Élet - first off, it is "Élet és Irodalom"(!). It is a very intellectual magazine, that is true, but as I have graduated from an elite school in hungary, many of my friends have published there quite some stuff, and I don't consider them being eligible to be in Wikipedia
- TV show-ups. Forget Sziv-TV, its crap. RTL-Klub: you can get in there by having an IQ < 20, e.g. in the programme 'Fokusz'. TV-2: a similar stuff to "Fokusz" is here, so forget it. Only interesting is the MTV appearance, but come on... Anybody even a bit well known in Hungary has no need to have himself credited with the stuff mentioned before. MTV should have been enough. Also, my father once having a popularity rate of about 10%, he could most probably list about 200 of these TV-appearances, so forget it.
- Anyways, as a non-hungarian, my thoughts are the following: He keeps explaining why it is so important to have him here. That in itself should give us a clue of how important he is. So let's delete this stuff and go on doing something more productive then arguing *with*(and not *about*!) a self-nominated 'important' man.--Msoos 09:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
  - I have removed 68.48.73.93's latest comments as a personal attack against User:Msoos. Gamaliel 20:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Comment here comes another Hungarian. I can largely corroborate what has been said by Msoos. Kurir and Kiskegyed are not serious newspapers, so the fact there were articles there about him doesn't mean too much. 168 óra is a more serious weekly mainly interested in politics and to a smaller extent culture. In any case, it usually doesn't deal with philosophy as a topic. It would be interesting to read the article itself, I may try and find and read it. Élet és Irodalom is a very prestigious weekly in Hungary, but he himself said that it was actually a letter of his that was published, which again doesn't prove anything as ordinary readers get their letters to the editor published every week. In his case, there was a debate on relaunching the literary weekly Nyugat his grandfather used to edit, and he expressed his opinion on this topic in a letter, so his statement (21:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC), below) that he was described as a philosopher in Elet es Irodalom is a blatant lie. The significance of the appearance on MTV (Magyar Televizió, (the state-owned) Hungarian Television) is difficult to judge as we don't know what kind of program he appeared in.
- On the whole, what really should make us suspicious is this: here is an American philosopher who publishes in English, and still, for some reason, the main sources he marshals to defend his claim of being a recognized philosopher happen to be all in Hungarian. And, for some other reason, non of these sources actually prove that he is a recognized philosopher.
- As a matter of fact, most recognized Hungarian scientists and scholars publish amptly in English, in peer-reviewed journals, so his idea of being recognized "only in Hungarian" is quite odd, especially in light of his book having been published in English.
- His ideas of being hated by most Hungarians and having played a major role in toppling a government are ludicrous, as a matter of fact, I am sure he is completely unknown to most Hungarians. I myself never heard of him before being invited to this discussion. He may be a philosopher for all that, but a recongnized and well-known member of the intellectual (or even cultural) scene in Hungary he definitely isn't.
- I made a quick search of Hungarian webpages, there were two classes of hits on his name: (1) where he was mentioned in connection with his grandfather, the late editor of the literary weekly Nyugat, (2) marginal pages like forums, the webpage of a community centre where he held a lectures, a magazine of lifestyle etc. Not one university homepage, not one homepage of a research institute or a journal of philosophy. And the number of hits was less then 10, before I forget... --Tamas 23:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
AttentionAfter so many attacks on my name, character and person, and obfuscation of the fact that I am a philosopher, my most relevant ideas to date have all been published (some even on the Internet) and that such has even been written of me (Budapest Sun article, Internet-Galaxis 2000 program, etc.), I and several people who know me are of the conclusive opinion that Wikipedia is no longer what it set out to be and cannot be a fair arbitrer of anything! So USER: MikeTwo,USER: Trovatore, etc.... Go ahead and delete my mention on Wikipedia, for it is not worthy of my good name. USER: Gemaliel: hooray for you, you've done a great service to humanity (NOT!). Erasing my statement about the possibilities surrounding Msoos was actually a disservice to Wikipedia, besides you seem not to pay attention to 'qualifiers' as I have often been using them. USER: Msoos:

[[[[you seem to ignore the main question so far and the only issue on which USER: MikeTwo and USER: Trovatore are concerned with, namely; has any reputable source ever described me as a philosopher (!, which many have done jsut that, but in 168-ora, MTV-1, Elet es Irodalom and a number of others; in Hungarian]]]]), you should consider yourself to be a proud member of the what seems to be a world-wide anti-Wikipedia conspiracy to infiltrate it with people who seem to have a very dark agenda...probably to manipulate the general public's perception of 'reality' as it becomes defined by a select few. This is also the opinion of several dozen people, all of equal or greater notability than I, with whom we have established contact and who may find a legitimate way to inform the world about the tragic condition of Wikipedia. SO PLEASE DELETE ME and ignore all the facts as they stand and have stood. Last but not least: A shining bright star of reason did appear in the form of USER: conf ! May whoever that person be: the world needs much more of your kind, keep up the resistance and never doubt that your words of reason are much appreciated and have limited my own grief. Wikipedia must be saved. Some Wikipedians must be held accountable. The Infinity Society will continue to herald a new age...or perish with the rest of the world! I will always be true to myself: a real American patriot, fighting fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, bigotry, hypocrisy, elitism, racism, inhumanity, ignorance, hate, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, and the list goes on. As my dear friend Larry Alaimo once put it: "J.P., the only problems with this infinity thing of yours is that it goes on and on forever (lol)." Yes, that's a good problem worth laughing about! The phenomena of the corruption of Wikipedia is no laughing matter. Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo, Philosopher, Founder & Director of The Infinity Society, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. 68.48.73.93 21:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

A potential factor to consider would be book circulation figures. Just another stone to look under. Out of curiosity, how many circulated copies does it take to make one a notable author? Go for it! 23:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Are his works built-upon in any widely published books by other philosophical authors? Go for it! 23:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Are his books or ideas causing any noticeable ripples in the field of philosophy, or in the world-at-large? Go for it! 23:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete. I nominated with an abstention, but the reports from the Hungarians seem fairly conclusive to me. I admit the possibility that I may be serving the interests of a dark cabal that seeks to keep the common man ignorant by holding down a truly enlightened man, but at this point I'll take my chances with that. --Trovatore 23:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment: I am a native Hungarian and I have to admit I have not heard of this man so far but that doesn't mean he cannot be significant. I did, however do a research on him on Google Hungary and it did give some information about him being a philosopher BUT I haven't found ANY major proof that he did significant work in his field. He does hold lectures about his things, as fars as I understood but one of the major Hungarian Literature Periodicals listed him in the category of "Crazy" when he stated some foolish thing about one of the major Literary periodicals of the beginning of the 20th century and that he apparentléy just took up the name Ady, who was one opf our biggest poets. http://www.kortarsonline.hu/9904/kristo.htm So it seems to me that this guy is just a balloon to be blown out, not a serious philosopher with recognizable ideas. But that's just an opinion. I would need some research in the topic in a real library. :Teemeah 11:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

STOP INSULTS ++ Uzenet Fenyõ Jean-Pierre Ady-tol USER: Teemeah-nak: Ne haragudjon de szerintem nagyon tevedts... A nagyapam nem mas mint Fenyõ Miksa, a Nyugatos, volt. Maga Ady Endre kerte ha lesz unokaja hogy legyen a neveben "ADY", tehat 1964, sokk ev azutan hogy Ady meghalt (1919-ben) megszulettem es Ady nevet, mint kozep nev, kaptam. Egyebkent beszelhetsz a kovetkezokel telefonon (vagy, ha ok akarjak, akar szemelyesen is ... ja, a magyar nyelv nalam csak harmadik, az angol es spanyol utan, ugyhat nincs ekezetteim bilentyumon es magyar helyes-irasban soha nem voltam nagy szam):

Prof. Erno Lazarovits(36-1) 413-5578, a MAZSIHISZ kulkapcsolatok-ert felelos.

Dr. Lang Jozsef, ugyvezeto Argumentum Kiado, (36-1) 485-1040, na o aztan nagyon jol ismeri a nevemet.

Prof. Howard Robinson, Head of The Department of Philosophy, Central European University, Budapest, (36-1) 342-2307 (otthoni telefon...ne kesobb mint 20:30 kerem), aki mondhatja hogy valoban filozofus vagyok, csakhogy nem akademikus, mert hogy " I am not a teacher of philosophy but a practitioner of philosophy".

Prof. Hernadi Miklos, Magyar Tudomanyos Akademia, Konyv es Folyoiratkiado Bizottsag, aki egyebbkent lektoralta a filozofia konyvemet (1999-ben)! (36-1) 302-5638 (jo ideje nem beszeltem vele...udvozlettemet adj tovabb).

Nagyon remelem hogy ezek dolgok utanna tudtsz erdeklodni... mert kar lenne ha azok tenyleg hibat kovetnek!

Comment

First things first. I share Msoos' opinion, and thus I vote for delete. Hangzatos szolamok helyett inkabb egy kis bolcsesseget javasolnek Ady urnak. A Wikipedia ugyan gyakran hasznalt forrás manapsag, de olyan temakban, mint peldaul a filozofia, meg jo par evig nem lesz mervado, velemenyem szerint. Raadasul a szoban forgo szocikk, mar ha nevezhetjuk annak, csupan egy par sor Onrol. A Google ugyan elsonek dobja ki, de ez csak azert lehet, mert nincs honlapja, az Infinity Society oldalan pedig nem sokat ir magarol.

Ahogy az elozo hozzaszolok irtak, amint megfelelo mennyisegu, megbizhato forras lesz elerheto az On munkassagarol, biztosra veszem, hogy be fog kerulni az ingyenes, nem pedig szabad, enciklopediaba.

Ha On tenyleg ugy gondolja, hogy megeri ez a felhajtas, es vegul kap egy oldalt, amirol mellesleg tudni fogjak az adminok es az aktiv felhasznalok is, hogy hogyan jutott el abba a stadiumba, amit mellesleg nem tul szivesen fognak gondozni, mar ha egyatalan fognak, es valoszinuleg egy ido utan tobb kart csinalhatna Onnek, mint hasznot, akkor egesz nyugodtan fektessen bele nem keves energiat, abba hogy itt vitatkozik.

Egy oldal nem a vilag, hagyja had menjen. Majd lesz masik, jobb, ami sokkal inkabb szolgal majd Onnek.

Belul nem hagy nyugodni az a szemtelen, de talan jogos kerdes, hogy milyen "filozofus" is On, ha ennyire gorcsosen ragaszkodik igazabol a semmihez. Udvozlettel:PAStheLoD 12:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment - whether or not this individual is notable (which really does not seem to be the case), i thought it was a fundemental wikipedia policy that subjects of articles do not write their own articles. wikipedia would go to pot if this was allowed surely? Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo, consider maybe writing a user page? you could continue to disseminate your undoubtedly worthy ideas from the safety of an appropriate platform, i think it would be great! Jdcooper 12:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

STOP INSULTS ++ Uzenet Fenyõ Jean-Pierre Ady-tol USER: Teemeah-nak: Ne haragudjon de szerintem nagyon tevedts... A nagyapam nem mas mint Fenyõ Miksa, a Nyugatos, volt. Maga Ady Endre kerte ha lesz unokaja hogy legyen a neveben "ADY", tehat 1964, sokk ev azutan hogy Ady meghalt (1919-ben) megszulettem es Ady nevet, mint kozep nev, kaptam. Egyebkent beszelhetsz a kovetkezokel telefonon (vagy, ha ok akarjak, akar szemelyesen is ... ja, a magyar nyelv nalam csak harmadik, az angol es spanyol utan, ugyhat nincs ekezetteim bilentyumon es magyar helyes-irasban soha nem voltam nagy szam):

Prof. Erno Lazarovits(36-1) 413-5578, a MAZSIHISZ kulkapcsolatok-ert felelos.

Dr. Lang Jozsef, ugyvezeto Argumentum Kiado, (36-1) 485-1040, na o aztan nagyon jol ismeri a nevemet.

Nagyon remelem hogy ezek dolgok utanna tudtsz erdeklodni... mert kar lenne ha azok tenyleg hibat kovetnek!

Nota Bene The article from KORTARS is very, very insulting...it is an op-ed piece by a known anti-Semite, and the fact of the matter is it does not reflect what any of the above highly-reputable persons (all currently in Budapest...all speak English fluently) will say. I HAVE KEPT THIS ACE CARD UP MY SLEEVE just for this purpose! If the young lady (Timea is a female name, so if I'm wrong about the gender it was not intentinal) USER: Teemeah should contact these fine gentlemen and get the whole, unadulterated truth! My grandfather Fenyo, Miksa established the NYUGAT (arguably Hungary's greatest literary and social review) in 1908 along with co-founders Osvat, Erno and Ignotus, Hugo in order to bring into Hungarian intellectual life (in Hungarian as opposed to German) the great ideas of Western philosophers like Kierkegaard, Nietzche, Schopenhauer and the list goes on... It was a heroic feat! And now I too will be vindicated...if USER: Teemeah does me the kindness! I have really had it up to here with all the attacks, incinuations and other failures to maintain protocol! I was hoping to step aside and observe the deletion with the knowledge that very soon thereafter certain people of mine in Budapest, of very high esteem, will contact each and every one of you Wikipedians who have incessantly attacked my good name, my reputation and what not. But the last call was just too much: USER: Teemeah is not an anti-Semite but sure could benefit from calling the people mentioned and ascertaining the full facts! I intend to hold all this as an exercise in taming Wikipedians who are too quick to pass judgment and who would fail to see the difference between an op-ed piece from a highly biased source and something more reputable. Lastly for USER: Teemeah: neither I nor my father gave uncoditional support to Mr. Tolvaly Ferenc to commit "irodalmi nekrofilia" < English: literary necrophilia by letting him re-start the NYUGAT more than fifty years after it folded...I and my father simply suggested that we would support a new version of the publication if, and only on such condition, it would meet the highest standards of literary journalism. The P.I.M. < Petofi Irodalmi Muzeum < Hungary's official museum of literature named after Petofi Sandor, Hungary's chief poet laureate, knows exactly who I am and that not only am I a philosopher but that I never consented to Mr. Tolvaly actual plans. In fact, Mr. Tolvaly (who also was the head of a major TV station) was unable to actually start-up the New NYUGAT because I withdrew my conditional support as soon as it became evident what he really had in mind (this after he spent millions of forints on publicizing his intentions!). So there it is! USER: Teemeah: do your duty to truth* STOP INSULTS ++ Uzenet Fenyõ Jean-Pierre Ady-tol USER: Teemeah-nak: Ne haragudjon de szerintem nagyon tevedts... A nagyapam nem mas mint Fenyõ Miksa, a Nyugatos, volt. Maga Ady Endre kerte ha lesz unokaja hogy legyen a neveben "ADY", tehat 1964, sokk ev azutan hogy Ady meghalt (1919-ben) megszulettem es Ady nevet, mint kozep nev, kaptam. Egyebkent beszelhetsz a kovetkezokel telefonon (vagy, ha ok akarjak, akar szemelyesen is ... ja, a magyar nyelv nalam csak harmadik, az angol es spanyol utan, ugyhat nincs ekezetteim bilentyumon es magyar helyes-irasban soha nem voltam nagy szam):

Prof. Erno Lazarovits(36-1) 413-5578, a MAZSIHISZ kulkapcsolatok-ert felelos.

Dr. Lang Jozsef, ugyvezeto Argumentum Kiado, (36-1) 485-1040, na o aztan nagyon jol ismeri a nevemet.

Nagyon remelem hogy ezek dolgok utanna tudtsz erdeklodni... mert kar lenne ha azok tenyleg hibat kovetnek!

Nota Bene The article from KORTARS is very, very insulting...it is an op-ed piece by a known anti-Semite, and the fact of the matter is it does not reflect what any of the above highly-reputable persons (all currently in Budapest...all speak English fluently) will say. I HAVE KEPT THIS ACE CARD UP MY SLEEVE just for this purpose! If the young lady (Timea is a female name, so if I'm wrong about the gender it was not intentinal) USER: Teemeah should contact these fine gentlemen and get the whole, unadulterated truth! My grandfather Fenyo, Miksa established the NYUGAT (arguably Hungary's greatest literary and social review) in 1908 along with co-founders Osvat, Erno and Ignotus, Hugo in order to bring into Hungarian intellectual life (in Hungarian as opposed to German) the great ideas of Western philosophers like Kierkegaard, Nietzche, Schopenhauer and the list goes on... It was a heroic feat! And now I too will be vindicated...if USER: Teemeah does me the kindness! I have really had it up to here with all the attacks, incinuations and other failures to maintain protocol! I was hoping to step aside and observe the deletion with the knowledge that very soon thereafter certain people of mine in Budapest, of very high esteem, will contact each and every one of you Wikipedians who have incessantly attacked my good name, my reputation and what not. But the last call was just too much: USER: Teemeah is not an anti-Semite but sure could benefit from calling the people mentioned and ascertaining the full facts! I intend to hold all this as an exercise in taming Wikipedians who are too quick to pass judgment and who would fail to see the difference between an op-ed piece from a highly biased source and something more reputable. Lastly for USER: Teemeah: neither I nor my father gave uncoditional support to Mr. Tolvaly Ferenc to commit "irodalmi nekrofilia" < English: literary necrophilia by letting him re-start the NYUGAT more than fifty years after it folded...I and my father simply suggested that we would support a new version of the publication if, and only on such condition, it would meet the highest standards of literary journalism. The P.I.M. < Petofi Irodalmi Muzeum < Hungary's official museum of literature named after Petofi Sandor, Hungary's chief poet laureate, knows exactly who I am and that not only am I a philosopher but that I never consented to Mr. Tolvaly actual plans. In fact, Mr. Tolvaly (who also was the head of a major TV station) was unable to actually start-up the New NYUGAT because I withdrew my conditional support as soon as it became evident what he really had in mind (this after he spent millions of forints on publicizing his intentions!). So there it is! USER: Teemeah: do your duty to truth, humanity and the original Wikipedia! 68.48.73.93 12:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

, humanity and the original Wikipedia! 68.48.73.93 12:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyõ, how many copies of your titles have been sold?

If the circulation figure for any of your book titles exceeds 5,000, then you qualify for inclusion to Wikipedia through notability as an author. And if the book happened to be one of philosophy, then your notability would be as a writer of philosophy, which for all intents and purposes is synonymous with philosopher. See Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies. Thanks, Michael, for the reference. Go for it! 17:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Not "for all intents and purposes", but, maybe, for our intents and purposes. Conf 23:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Answer To USER: Go for it! > In Hungary a printing of 5,000 copies of a philosophy book would be, for all intensive purposes, impossible. Note that Hungary's internal population (not including Hungarians residing 'permanently' outside of Hungary, in Transylvania, Germany, the U.S., Australia, etc.) is not more than 11 Million. Even some of the more famous Hungarian intellectuals do not get a first print of over 2,000 copies! Mine was only 1,200 copies, and distribution was limited because of threats to book-sellers! <<< I am a very controversial figure in Budapest society...and now that it has been almost two years since I left people are beginning to forget me; some because of the fact that I was a nuisance in their lives (reminding them of serious social problems in Hungary, such as racism and prejudice towards minorities), others because in today's world if you're not constantly exposed in the mass media then within a year people (most) will forget! I would say, however, that 1 in 20 people living for over ten years in Budapest will know something significant about me (that's roughly 100,000 persons, give or take a few thousand). In Hungary I'd dare say 1 in 40 (250,000). In New York City my fame index hovers around 1 in 40 persons (roughly the same as in Hungary: 250,000), not very good, but that puts me in the top 1% of humanity. By Wikipedia standards my notability as a "writer" is virtually zero! But the measure of my noteworthy is problematic and very complex at that; for on some level Wikipedia must also mention those whose degree of influence on world events is very high, but whose fame level is very low. Which reminds me of the time when a previous President of Portugal asked his A.D.C. who the hell I was (at a V.I.P. event hosted by the Hungarian government) and his A.D.C. whispered in his ears something to which he said (loud enough for people around to hear, and in Portuguese; "Oh, that's the man...well keep me away from him and any other philosophers who might be present!" The President's stare was rather ominous! My ideas about infinity have inspired dozens of major companies, since after my first days of fame in 1987, to use the word or motif (logo: symbol) of infinity, in various altered forms and straight for their public brand or company image recognition!!! My letters of advice to world leaders, mostly in the early 1990s, influenced decisions, sometimes with impressive results. Of course, these things are virtually impossible to prove conclusively, for by their very nature they do not lend themselves to the kind of proof of causality that other things do. One serious factor...mind you I still think DELETION has its up-side (especially after the fact that it had already gone through scrutiny once before over 3 years ago and more or less passed without any major problem) and I would just love to get e-mails of apology further down the road when the evidence of my noteworthiness/sincerity starts rolling in! My mention was on Wikipedia for almost as long as Wikipedia has so far existed, and I will not let those who delete my mention get off easily. I just love receiving apologies...even years down the road!!! Wikipedia needs to have room for extremely odd and complex exceptions, especially if the person in question is highly likely to be the next Spinoza or, in terms of popularity only, the next Jean Paul Sartre (whose views on Existentialism I almost completely disagree with). There is nothing exciting about a major Internet reference source that only covers the subjects already covered by the mainstream. Wikipedia must recognize the need to include the avant-garde and the unusual if it wants to be of any use to the mass media and students in a world whose speed of information exchange and change itself is beyond easy comprehension. No longer does Andy Warhol's famous "15 minute of fame" apply; the question has to be not in quantitative terms but in qualitative terms: and given that it is I alone, in the known English language world, who claims (before any others ever did) that infinity is the only concept that will truly evolve us humans from the homo-ignoramus most of us still are (explain what happened and why in Rwanda, Bosnia-Hercegovina and other recent inhumanity...after The Holocaust!!!!) to the true homo-sapiens we should already be! No other concept is as important in defining one's humanity...for while primates can communicate and thus think about some basic concepts directly associated with emotion(s), they will not be able to conceive, to any extent/degree, the concept of that which is everything and has no beginning in terms of time-space-change!!! Maybe, if we humans survive this catastrophic period of history, then thousands of years from now (unless we do some odd cross-genetic breeding!) will primates evolve sufficiently to become able to conceive the infinite! Infinity is truly the final thought that we can conceive!!! So...I have enjoyed educating a few people...but hidden jealousy is no reason to defame a daring new intellectual!!! "And they will fear the words and ideas of those who might wake up all the sleeping tigers...and they will find ways aplenty to silence the lions of truth who dare bathe in the bright sun rays of reason and truth." Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo, Philosopher to the N-th degree! [[3]] 68.48.73.93 22:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
DELETE. NN bio. This guy has absolutely no reference in the Philosopher's Index which is the definitive resource for philosophy in the English language. Even if he were notable in some other language (which I'm sure he isn't), he oughtn't be added to an English-language encyclopedia until he has reached multinational (i.e., multilanguage) prominence. KSchutte 07:05, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo

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[edit] Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyo

[edit] Jean-Pierre Ady Fenyõ, how many copies of your titles have been sold?

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