Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Historical persecution by Jews

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was KEEP. This has somehow become nearly unanimous! Perhaps the processes and consensus building do work, after all. -Splash 01:20, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historical persecution by Jews

A previous version of this article was nominated for deletion on 19 July. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Religious persecution by Jews. Despite a majority of opinions to delete, the closing admin determined that it failed to meet the necessary standard of "rough concensus". The first VfD was closed as a "no concensus" decision. The decision to close the first debate was reversed by another administrator. The reversal was deemed to be out-of-process and was itself reverted. It was discussed several places including here, here and here. In the meantime, a Vote for Undeletion was formally opened. See here. Given the circumstances, the vote for undeletion was also considered by some to be out-of-process. Again, there was a majority opinion to delete (or redelete) the article but this time, the vote-count was even closer than in the VfD decision. I am returning this to VfD for a second discussion.

I note that the article has been moved to a different title and that it has been extensively edited since the first VfD began. I encourage everyone to carefully re-read the article and decide again based on the merits and weaknesses of the current version.

This is a procedural nomination. Do not interpret this nomination as a "delete" vote. Rossami (talk) 12:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• No vote. But by having "participated" in this debate, I will most definitely not be closing this debate. (I wouldn't have done so in any case, anyway). Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Errr. We have Religious persecution by Muslims and Religious persecution by Christians. Echoing previous commenters, this article is not great, but the topic is valid -- even if the finally NPOV'd entry is something akin to "not much." Sdedeo 13:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Comment I've no strong feeling here -except all three should be treated in the same way. I'm not sure that generic 'persecution by' articles can be NPOV. They assume an historic contunuity between persecutors that is debatable - and that persection was done 'as Jews' or ' as Muslims'. The Islamic article has been moved to Religious conflict and Islam. That's not great either, but if it's allowed to stand then the same treatment should be given to the other articles. Indeed, I'm tempted to add both of them to this Vfd so that all are kept, deleted or renamed alike. Anyone second that? --Doc (?) 13:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Don't. Then there'd be questions about the validity of the VfD, and the "rough consensus" would be harder impossible to determine. If each had its own VfD, that would be a good thing in the long run, but would generate more heat than light in the very short term. Also, it's usually seen as bad when a single editor nominates an entire group of article. Wiki is all about teamwork, you know. ^_^ - brenneman^(t)(c) 14:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • OK - because of teamwork, I suggested it but didn't do it (unilateral is v. bad :{) - your response makes sense --Doc (?) 14:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep all three. Legitimate topics, although a close eye will have to be kept on them to keep (particularly the Jewish and Muslim ones) from descending into racism. --Scimitar ^parley 13:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep all three, again. ElBenevolente 15:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep all three, just like last time. Shem^(talk) 16:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Neutral but if good reasons are given for delete, you may change my vote to delete, I'm going on vacation. Just because other topics have a "persecution by" doesn't mean all groups have to. Right now this article feels like a token attempt to keep things "fair". My sense though is the article doesn't need deletion yet but does require serious cleanup. The article is verging very close to origional research, I'm almost tempted to say it might be worth wiping out the article and starting from scratch. Opening your religious text of choice and finding what you want is origional research. I'd be much more comfortable with this article if it was using academic sources which are explicitly mentioned.
  • unsigned comment by user:Graniterock. Please remember to sign your comments.
• Keep — let's all stand in a big circle and flog each other until somebody says, "Uncle". :) — RJH 17:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, perfectly valid. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:31, 2005 August 18 (UTC)
• Keep but the title should be made consistent with the others. Why should Christians and Muslims have religious and Jews historical persecution? Can we revert to the orig. title? 20:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • unsigned comment by user:Dottoreso who, I suspect, added 5 tildes instead of 4
  • They don't. All three have been called "historical persecution by..." for some while now. Paul B 10:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
    • addendum: the Muslim one has now been renamed Religious conflict and Islam. Unfortunate, to say the least. All three should have the same title. Paul B 11:17, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment I wonder if 'historical' might be better for all three. Religious is ambigious - does it imply persecution of other religions (and thus exclude ethnic or cultural groups who were persecuted) or does it imply persecution for solely religious reasons (and thus exclude political or economic motivations)? --Doc (?) 20:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Weak delete. As of now, while miles better than the old article it remains a low-quality article with too much original research. In the alternative, VfD all of them per Doc's comments above for purposes of renaming under a broader, possibly more accurate, and surely a less inflammatory Religious conflict and XXXX moniker. --Flawiki 22:40, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Weak Keep I'd like to see where this one is headed. --Dysepsion 22:42, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep The request to carefully evaluate the article is invalid, we are not here hand out grades. This is clearly a legitmate topic. Osomec 02:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep There is no sense in deleting one and leaving the others.Heraclius 14:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete The article barely contains any "meat". --Michaelk 06:37, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• keep. I voted to delete last time because the article was called Religious persecution by Jews but contained no examples of religious persecution! The current article contains sufficient examples to justify its existence. The subject is of real historical interest. Also, to delete just this one of the three articles would fuel complaints of "bias". Anyone who looks at the three together can judge for themselves just how "persecutory" Jews have been in comparison to Christians and Muslims. It's better to give people all the facts than suppress material and fuel resentments. Paul B 10:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Closing one eye and keeping two open would not show an objective face. A triclopean face, yes, but not an objective one. --Agamemnon2 15:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep I suppose its possible to merge with Christianity, having Historical persecution by Judeo-Christians, but this has undoubtably existed just maybe no on the same level as Islam, Christianity, or Hinduism.Falphin 23:41, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.