Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Eyre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete Leroy Heller, Franklin Pierce Heller and Anne Eyre Heller for lack of notability and verifiable, reliable sources. Even though it was withdrawn I am also deleting Jehu Eyre as hoax and unverifiable. None of the "references" support the article's text, they merely point out that he existed. The article may be recreated with reliable sources. Joelito (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George Eyre

This is a series of artilces related to Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States (also see associated AfD). Basically, this seems to be a chunk of geneology research. Hard poking at the references yield nothing. I noted that there's a castle eyre, but then again, there's a castle Breitenstein sitting in Europe too, but there's no article on that. The thought of a hoax comes to mind, but its probably more likely, as I said, geneology research. I really can't find anything special, nor can I find substantiated evidence beyond the wikipedia articles of any sort of dynasty. Its just a family line. However, if someone can actually clinch the existance of a serious power-management dynastic old-money family that existed under these names, I will happy withdraw this nomination. In point:

A group of non-notable people (WP:BIO) and original research. Kevin_b_er 08:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Added to this AFD is the following articles, of the same reasoning as the first:

Jehu Eyre Leroy Heller Franklin Pierce Heller Anne Eyre Heller

Withdrew the nomination on Jehu Eyre due to what occured in this AfD discussion. Kevin_b_er 23:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all per nomination. —Quarl (talk) 2006-06-22 09:10Z
  • Delete all except Jehu Eyre per nom. No vote on Jehu Eyre as he might be legitimately notable, but I'm not certain. Paddles TC 12:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yikes. Wow, I wrote all of these articles, and didn't realize they were up for deletion. I suppose that's my fault for not sourcing them better. Okay, here we go:

Hold on, let me look for more.

History21 16:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)History21

Okay, this:

Title: Business papers, 1795-1847 (bulk 1800-1805). Description: 720 items. Notes: Manuel Eyre, a Philadelphia merchant of Quaker ancestry, was born in 1777. His father, Manuel Eyre, Sr., [take note, as this man was the subject of one of my articles] (1736-1805) was a shipwright in Kensington and a colonel in the Contintental Army. He obtained his training in the counting house of Henry Pratt and Abraham Kintzing and in 1803 joined with Charles Massey, Jr., (b. 1778) to form the mercantile firm of Eyre & Massey, a partnership that lasted until Eyre's death in 1845. The firm of Eyre & Massey owned over 20 vessels, ranging in size from ships to sloops, and traded around the world, mounting voyages to Europe, the Caribbean, South America, China, India and the Pacific Islands. Manuel Eyre also served on the Philadelphia City Council and was a founding director of the Schuylkill Navigation Company (1816) and the Second Bank of the United States (1816). After 1820 he gradually retired from active trading and devoted much of his time to agriculture. He owned two farms outside the city and three in Delaware. He was the founder of Delaware City, Del., at the mouth of the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal, buying the entire site in 1828, erecting public buildings and dividing it into lots.

comes from here: [12]

This:

Mr. Rumsey says in page 2, "That in the month of September, 1781 he exhibited the model of a Boat to his Excellency General Washington at Bath in Berkeley County, calculated for stemming the current of rapid rivers only constructed on principles very different from (his) present one ; satisfied of the experiment of her making way against a rapid stream by the force of the stream the General was pleased to give me a most ample certificate of her efficacy." Here it is to be observed, that no mention was made to General Washington of steam at the time of such exhibition ; the principles on which the Boat was propelled, were entirely unconnected with, and distinct from steam; being simply a model propelled by water wheels, cranks, and setting poles ; a mode which was many years ago tried on the river Schuylkill by a farmer near Reading, but without success. From an exhibition of this plan it was that Mr. Rumsey procured the certificate from General Washington, and on that certificate were Mr. Rumsey's laws founded. In his petitions to the several legislatures, he prayed for no exclusive right, for the use of Steam Boats; neither did be make mention of Steam, to their committees; or even suggest an idea of the kind; as proof of which, I offer the following petition to the Assembly of Pennsylvania the certificate from General Washington, accompanying it, and the certificate of Manuel Eyre, Esquire, who was one of the committee of Assembly, who reported in Mr. Rumsey's- favor.

comes from here: [13]

This:

"Memorials of Colonel Jehu Eyre." Edited by Peter D. Keyser. Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography, 3 (1879), pp. 296-307, 412-425

comes from here: [14]

This:

The same day the Navy Board recommended to Council that as there were reasons to believe that some vessels of the English fleet would attempt to approach the city, a certain number of persons should be assigned to flood Hog Island, and that ninety or one hundred men should garrison the fort at Darby Creek. Council requested the Navy Board to see to the flooding of the Island, and ordered a company of artillery and a company of "Musqueters," under the command of Col. Jehu Eyre, to the works at Darby Creek.

comes from here: [15]

This:

Since its founding, the cemetery has had a self-perpetuating board of trustees to look over its affairs. The board has included such notables as the Emmanuel and Jehu Eyre, shipbuilders to the Continental Navy. The board of trustees has kept the cemetery independent over all these years and has also withstood an attempt by a local church to usurp it.

comes from here: [16]

This: When the Revolution broke out in 1775, Hewson organized a company of volunteers from his own Kensington workmen and served as their Captain. He was joined in this patriotic response by the shipwright Jehu Eyre, who captained his own ship carpenters, workmen, and apprentices in the "Kensington Artillery." The Eyre shipyards at the foot of Columbia Avenue hastily constructed thirteen gondolas and galleys for use in the defense of the city.

comes from here: [17]

This: Manuel Eyre built the first gun-boat for the Government. It was launched at Philadelphia, July 26, 1775, and was called the “Bull Dog.” He organized his workmen into a company of minute men and commanded them at Trenton and Princeton. When he was selected by the Council of Safety as a member of the Navy Board, his company was merged into that of his brother Jehu.

comes from here: [18]

Other sources:

If their wealth is in dispute, this: [21] should clear that up.

I'll find more and post them soon, I promise!!

History21 17:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)History21

  • Keep all While they are not on the frontline of notable historical figures in US History, the line IS notable for a few things, not the least of which was basically keeping the early US government financially afloat during the war. TruthCrusader 19:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh Crusader for Truth! (uh... given your hardline keepist stance, don't you find your chosen nom de guerre a bit of an ironic drag on your general thrust?), where do you get the idea that the early US government (I think you mean the Continental Congress, but lets not nitpick) was kept afloat by the Eyres? The $6,032 claim is completely unsourced and the claim on the Jehu Eyre page that this amount is worth $1.8bn today is grossly inflated and misleading (its more like $85,000 - see my comment on the Jehu Eyre talk page). You do realize that Wikipedia attracts all kind of unreliable and sometimes deliberately hoax material every day? Bwithh 00:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • That includes Anne Eyre Heller (1838 – 1876), Franklin Pierce Heller (1876 – 1940), and Leroy Heller (1877-1949)? Man, the American Revolutionary War went on a LOT longer than I thought it had. --Calton | Talk 04:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Your uncivil comments, as usual, have been recorded and reported. Calton, you do nothing but make snide remarks in your comments and edit remarks. You really should re-think your attitude on Wikipedia as we have no time for uncivil remarks (well in theory anyway) TruthCrusader 14:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Buy a dictionary: this might correct your constant misuse of such terms as "uncivil", "vandalism", "notable", and "reported" -- you DO know that "reported" means to actually TELL someone else, not "sputter and mutter to oneself"? --Calton | Talk 00:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment As I mentioned on the author's userpage, I'd like to see these properly sourced, using the above information if it's applicable, and then I'd be fine with them being kept. Until then, no vote. Tony Fox (speak) 20:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Jehu Eyre, delete the others, who even by the sources cited were very minor historical figures. Perhaps they could get a sentence in the Jehu article. --MCB 21:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Jehu Eyre, nuke the rest. Original research and hopelessly puffed up ("...Franklin is considered one of the ablest leaders the Eyre family has ever had. He came to power in the late 1870's..." He came to power?) --Calton | Talk 04:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The family remained wealthy and powerful long after the Revolution, retaining its political sway until 1929 and its monetary strength until 1934. The Revolution was important in establishing the Eyre family, but it was not the defining event of the dynasty. The Heller family was itself enormously wealthy (which is the main reason that Anne Eyre Heller and Franklin Pierce Heller are significant in their own right). George Eyre was the first member of the family to live in what was then the American Colonies, which makes him noteworthy as the family's American founder. And, of course, Leroy Heller saw the downfall of Eyre/Heller might, which makes him highly important.

I will soon be posting sources about the Hellers. I ask that you give me time, and please also look at the Articles for Deletion for Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States.

Okay, here is the first thing on the Hellers: [22]. I am going to get more, I just need some time!

History21 01:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)History21

Resources on the Hellers:

More are coming. The Hellers aren't as easy to find as the Eyres.

History21 01:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)History21

Comment It would be more beneficial to put citations of resources into the articles themselves and then posting a simple comment in the AfD that you've updated the articles with refs/cites/etc., instead of listing the references and other commentary in the AfD. That way, you've increased the quality of th articles (strengthening their case for being kept) without messing up the AfD discussion and making it hard to follow. Paddles TC 02:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Eyre Empire was one of the first articles I ever debated on Wikipedia. I supported it enthusiastically then, and, while I have since had reservations about some of the material contained therein, I still stand by the essence of the piece, which stated that a family of greatly powerful patricians existed in this country that played a pivotal role in the Revolution, the Civil War, and later financial developments in American history. I hope that everyone will please actually read the sources that I provided. The reaction of some members leads me to believe that that has not been happening.

Eyre Empire first sparked a deep interest in this family for me, and led me to do extensive research and then write the articles now up for deletion themselves. I worked quite hard, scoured the Internet, went to various libraries, and even spoke with several descendants of the family.

As an American patriot (some would so jingoistic, though I disagree with them), I think that the Eyre and Hellers ought to be hailed as individual heroes, and that, as a group, they should be recognized for the tremendous influence that they have had in forming and then helping to lead the greatest nation in the history of the world.

The United States is the single most wondrous power that the world has or ever will see, a beacon of freedom that has stood as a symbol of hope in the hearts of millions of immigrants for centuries, has been almost solely responsible for the salvation of democracy (through heroic struggles in World Wars I and II and in the Cold War), has defined the very idea of modern liberal government and human rights, and remains the world's brightest light in the dark.

America has given millions not only the reality of freedom, but has granted the people of Earth the very conception of liberty. The idea itself was a mere fantasy to the thinkers of the Enlightenment, trapped as they were in their Absolutist kingdoms. The American Revolution and the subsequent establishment of our Constitutional system showed legions of oppressed, impoverished wretches everywhere that freedom was not a myth but something that could be achieved.

The French Revolution of 1789 was directly inspired by its American predecessor, as have countless other liberal revolts throughout history. And without the selfless sacrifices made by Jehu Eyre and his kin, none of that would have been possible. The influenc of this family on world history is incalculable.

His descendants went on to continue contributing to the American Republic, finally reaching their ignominious end in 1929 under the disastrous leadership of Leroy Heller (a historical figure who, the more I learn about, the less I like). For two hundred years, from their arrival in 1727 to their ultimate collapse in 1929 (and/or 1934), they were one of America's greatest and riches families. They founded cities (Delaware City, Hellertown), established banks (Second Bank of the United States, which a Heller still sits on today), fought in wars (the Spanish-American War, the Civil War), and maintained a position as an economic powerhouse (Eyre/Heller shipping yards and trading companies in Philadelphia). All of thi points to a highly significant family deserving of the articles I have written about them.

History21 03:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)History21

  • History21: to reiterate my comments in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States, I urge you to please read Wikipedia guidelines on reliable sources. Amateur genealogy from unreviewed personal web pages like those cited above from Angelfire, Rootsweb, Tripod, and Geocities are not reliable sources, and if you have to resort to them to "prove" the existence and notability of this "dynasty" of Eyres and Hellers and Vanderwhoositses, you have basically admitted lack of verifiability for Wikipedia purposes. Again: Wikipedia is not a place to research and present your original research or personal theories on American history by digging through obscure personal web sites and interviewing people. When you have convinced the community of mainstream historians of the existence of this "dynasty", and we can verify the identities and facts about the lives of its members from reliable sources, that is the point when it should be included in Wikpedia. --MCB 05:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • H21, I have a response regarding the nature of some of your arguments above, but it's too long and not neccessarily appropriate for inclusion within the AfD discussion, so I've posted it in your talk page. Paddles TC 09:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment For one of America's powerful and wealthy families, as History21 claims, why isn't there more information about them out there? Why does History21 have to fall back on vague amateur websites that have no evidence of this family's wealth and power? Bwithh 23:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment History21, you claim that a Heller sits today on the board of the Second Bank of the United States. This bank ceased to exist in 1836. Bwithh 23:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment History21, you claim that the Eyre/Heller founded the Second Bank of the United States. That is not true. The Bank was founded by the United States Congress [28]. The very detailed history in this book has three mentions of a "Eyre" - all in footnotes and without saying who the Eyre is (possibly a member of the bank board at some point[29]. No mentions of Heller. Bwithh 00:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment History21, you claim that the Eyres founded the small city of Delaware City, Delaware. While Manuel Eyre Snr's son, Manuel Eyre Jr., is sometimes called the founder of Delaware City, Delaware as in this description of a bunch of books he owned that are for sale (note that it is the interest of the seller to claim that he was the founder - and this was the most authoritative source I could find for this argument btw), other very authoritative sources such as Delaware City's own official website claim only the Newbold family as the city's founders. This history book source states that Manuel Eyre Jr. was just someone who bought land from the Newbolds after the Newbolds had already founded the city. And yes, Hellers did found Hellertown. But incidentally, Hellertown population today = about 5,600 in 2000. Delaware City population = about 1500 in 2000. Hardly the works of a great dynasty Bwithh 00:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • For crying out loud... Keep all. I know Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, but sometimes I think people are a little (okay, a LOT) too trigger happy on AFD. The author needs to put all his/her sources into the articles in a "references" section, but other than that, there is nothing wrong with these articles. They provide informative insights into early American history and should be kept, if cleaned up a bit. ONUnicorn 20:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BIO and article statement "George is not a historically famous or even terribly significant figure..." That pretty much sums it up.--Isotope23 17:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Jehu Eyre I have put the {{hoax}} tag on the Jehu Eyre article, as just a couple of minutes' research on the net have turned up inconsistencies which make me question the entire thing. Every single thing which is not sourced should be removed from the article, which would leave us with about one sentence. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There does seem to have been an American Revolutionary artillery commander called Jehu Eyre - see this google book search. I don't know if he's sufficiently notable for Wikipedia. In any case, I agree that his article seems to have numerous dubious details, possibly introduced by a malicious hoaxer - for instance the $1.8bn claim is totally wrong (see my note on the article talk page) and the article has a childish view of the American Revolution. The external reference sources given currently are very unsatisfactory. Bwithh 23:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all as per arguments above except Jehu Eyre which should be purged of unsourced or improperly sourced items. Even if the other articles are not hoaxes, Wikipedia is not a family genealogy site, and these articles do not assert their encyclopedic notability anyway. The keep voters concerned about "trigger happy" afds should realize that this kind of unverified, unencyclopedic articles are a serious threat to Wikipedia's reputation Bwithh 23:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Followup After doing some research, I've come to the conclusion while not all the information is hoax material - Jehu Eyre and Manuel Eyre Snr did exist (though I don't think Manuel is sufficiently notable for an encyclopedia at all), but there seems to be no evidence that the other people did. It does seem increasingly clear that History21 is for reasons of his/her own, is making very inflated and misleading grandiose claims about the Eyres/Hellers. Bwithh 00:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Further Question for History21 History21, can you tell us where the idea that Jehu Eyre was a member of George Washington's cabinet comes from, as is currently suggested by the George Eyre article? Especially as the Cabinet of George Washington only contained 4 members (with no "kitchen cabinet" minor members), all of whom are well documented, and was first formed in 1789 - 8 years after Jehu is supposed to have died?[30] [31] Also please see my comments about the Second Bank of the United States and the general lack of info about the powerful and wealthy Eyres/Hellers etc. above if you haven't seen them Bwithh 01:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
  • This AfD was not included in the main page. It is listed now. (Liberatore, 2006). 15:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all but Jehu Eyre. PLEASE. This seems like an attempt to rehash someone's previously deleted attempt at a hoax. -- Chet nc contribstalk 16:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all assuming that the references above are added to the articles before the end of AfD. JYolkowski // talk 22:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Note that very few of the "references" listed above meet the standard of reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes. They are a collection of amateur genealogy sites, personal web pages, opinion, theory, possible hoaxes, and non-scholarly "research". Adding them to the articles does not provide verifiability for the material in the articles, as required by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --MCB 23:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all (including Jehu Eyre) as hoaxcruft per Bwithh. (It is possible that the Jehu Eyre piece contains some small kernel of truth, but it's hard to be sure.) WP:NOR means that articles need to be based on WP:RS, and these aren't and never will be. Angus McLellan (Talk) 08:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/r/t/Wikipedia%7EArticles_for_deletion_George_Eyre_d1ec.html"