Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frisco Centennial High School

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frisco Centennial High School

Aaargh. I don't think it's possible to clean this and leave much beyond "Frisco Centennial High School is a High School in Frisco", and so it must die. --Tagishsimon (talk)

• Delete. "Die" might be a little too strong, but this article exhibits no encyclopedic value, is full of POV statements, and in parts nonsensical. I may as well toss in that until there is an agreed policy on schools (WP:SCHOOL did not succeed, and the creation of a wikiproject does not automatically confer encyclopedic value on any given article within that project, and schools are not inherently notable, and "precedent" is meaningless - we're not wikilawyers and stare decisis does not apply), each school article must be judged on its own merits. In the present case, I am of the opinion that this particular article, judged on its own merits, does not meet the criteria of WP:NOT. Agent 86 03:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I cleaned up the article (this involved getting rid of all but a paragraph), and according to overwhelmingly widespread precedent, high schools are inherently notable. If we should look at each case separately, then the fact that a couple thousand of students attend is enough. AdamBiswanger1 03:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • But why did you have to delete this nugget: In the northern suburb of Dallas, TX off of 121 go to www.friscoisd.org and there choose 6-12th schools to click on Centennial High School "Home of the fighting Titan"? The one school where you have to travel to location before you can access their web presence is surely notable. Hence, Keep No vote. ~ trialsanderrors 07:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Huh? I read it 3 times and I still don't get it. AdamBiswanger1 12:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• The one school where you have to travel to location before you can access their web presence is surely notable. Hence, Keep. <--- What??? Wickethewok 14:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Does it help if I just quote the first part? In the northern suburb of Dallas, TX off of 121 go to www.friscoisd.org. In any case, good opportunity to withdraw my vote per below. ~ trialsanderrors 16:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per my caving long ago on fighting school articles. The cleanup works. Teke 03:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep has redeeming quality. Not our proudest spot, but good enough American Patriot 1776 04:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep and expand per general precedent that high schools are notable. BryanG^(talk) 04:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, fine, if we're going to argue this precedent doesn't exist (which I dispute), I'll present some arguments for keeping:

1. While the number of college graduates is increasing, there are still a lot of people in the US whose highest level of education was their local high school. We have articles about colleges, so why not high schools too?
2. This is an expandable stub article. Sure, it doesn't present a lot of information right now, but sooner or later someone may expand it.
3. m:Wiki is not paper. We're not a traditional encycolpedia, we have the room to cover high schools.
4. Notability for this article: Frisco, Texas has experienced massive population growth in the last few years, this school was built because of that and is already over-capacity to the point where two more are being built. Not the strongest argument, but it's good enough for me.
5. I personally don't like requirements for notability such as "notable alumni", if for no other reason than it would confuse new editors who want to know why their school article is being deleted if those other ones can stay. Also, newer high schools like this one will obviously have troube meeting this sort of requirement.

I doubt this will convince anyone whose mind is already made up on the school debate, but at least it's better than citing precedent. BryanG^(talk) 20:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep High School. In nominating schools, perhaps you may wish to refer to SchoolWatch. Jammo (SM247) 05:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The formation of a wikiproject does not confer notability. --Coredesat 20:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per repetetive precedent. --Rob 08:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Repetition does not make it notable or encyclopedic. 50,000 Elvis fans can be wrong. Agent 86 15:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • But it does make these nominations a total waste of time. Do you want Wikipedians to engage in totally pointless rows that create bad feeling, or would you rather see them spend their time improving Wikipedia? CalJW 15:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Debate is healty... even if at the end the status quo is maintened. If it is such a waste of your time, stop participating in school AfD discussions Cal.--Isotope23 01:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, contrary to repeated erroneous claims, there are no precedents for automatic "Keep" votes/comments on schools. There have been arguments for and against (See Wikipedia:Notability (schools)/Arguments... and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents) and votes often end up with no consensus. Quite apart from that, in my view schools have no "inherent notability"... and this one has neither demonstrated notability, nor have I found any proof that it has any. - Motor(talk) 11:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Notability nuggets: The school was created to satisfy the increasing population in the area, and 2100 students spend their days there. That's more than Bryn Mawr College. Considering the number of High school in America, and the number of school-spirited kids makingn articles, it's pretty much a futile effort to fight back. Not that I'm defeatist or apathetic, but combined with the fact that the article is borderline notable, it results in a keep. AdamBiswanger1 12:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment A high school does not become notable just because it has 2100 students. My high school had 1900 students when I graduated from it, and it's not worthy of note. I would vote to delete even it. --Coredesat 06:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Not every school has inherent notability. If it's noteworthy in any way (besides the fact that it exists), I'll change my mind. --Coredesat 11:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete -- agree with Coredesat, excellent comment -- MrDolomite 14:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - It is not my belief that high schools are inherently notable. They should have done something at least, like had a notable alumnus or been featured in press stories. We really need to come up with a working set of guidelines for this already... Wickethewok 14:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Far too much time has been wasted on that already and it would be a terrible idea to start it all over again. As I have been saying for a year, the only guideline that will ever work is keep all schools. CalJW 15:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep — It is my belief that most High Schools are notable. This debate will persist ad infinitum, and I've seen little reason to favor a delete for a properly-formed H.S. page. :-) — RJH (talk) 16:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, ad infinitum is right. The only things that will survive a total global nuclear war: cockroachs, rats, and AfD school notability debates.--Isotope23 19:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• So you think userbox debates will be eliminated during a global nuclear war. Sounds like someone has taken a bite from the Optimistic Orange. joturner 06:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. User:Motor is correct in pointing out that there is no "automatic keep" rule for schools (I'm still not sure why people invoke Wikipedia:WikiProject_Schools as constituting an "automatic keep" / "inherently notable" rule, but that's neither here nor there). Certainly, there are notable schools, which should (and do) have articles. However, this does not mean that every school should have an article ... only the notable ones. After all, there are notable -authors- who should (and do) have articles, but we delete the nonnotable ones all the time, etc. etc. Anyway, the only suggestion of notability that occurs in this article is in reference to the school's size (student population of ~2,100). OK, my local McDonalds gets more than 2,100 customers a day -- does that mean it should have a page, too? Of course not. Anyway, if this school actually becomes notable (and the article makes the case for it), I'll be the first to change my vote. Best, Docether 19:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment staying out of it from a keep/delete standpoint, but I still have yet to see a convincing, logical argument establishing how schools are more "notable" than a local Wal-Mart.--Isotope23 19:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• That is not true. The argument has been made, and you don't agree with it. Alright, that's your choice, but the way the school deletionists treat inclusionist arguments with dismissive contempt is one of the main reasons I am so resolved to stand up to them until we have an article about every school. CalJW 15:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment, yes, well, you are accusing nominators of bad faith because they disagree with your "argument" (see below)?
• If you have a logical argument that effectively shows how a school is more notable than a Walmart, I'd love to see it CalJW. This isn't dismissive contempt, I have just have never seen anyone make a convincing argument. Pop a link to the discussion on my talk page.--Isotope23 01:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. All high schools are notable. Carioca 19:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• Clarification. I'm interested in your reasoning. Please explain further. -- Docether 19:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

• • Please do not ask other users to waste their time in that fashion. CalJW 15:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Please assume good faith, CalJW. Best, -- Docether 13:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - High schools should be kept. --Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 20:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. All schools are notable for reasons which have been debated ad infinitum and are clearly articulated at Wikipedia:Schools/Arguments#Keep (which is not a policy). Silensor 20:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, and which are clearly refuted by Wikipedia:Schools/Arguments#Delete (which is not a policy either). - Motor (talk) 20:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Exactly. Fortunately, Wikipedia is scalable enough that we do not have to all agree on what is and isn't notable. Otherwise, who knows, someone might start deleting articles about real towns, population: 8. Silensor 20:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment, I was hoping you might make an argument why *this* particular school is notable. Has it done something to make it stand out from the thousands of others. Arguments about "inherent notability" as well as citing non-existent precendents are just, well, hand-waving. - Motor (talk) 21:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Per precedent. I think it would be difficult (if not impossible) to develop a good notability test for schools. District size? Budget? Attendance? Year established? Sports achievements? OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 20:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment There's a simple one: When it creates non-local news. ~ trialsanderrors 22:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. A nice start. I think it must live. --JJay 23:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per silensor.  ALKIVAR™ 01:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete There is absoultely no claim to notability, it is just a recently established school. Unless something can be placed upon here to prove that the school is important, then keep this. However, there is no stressing of importance. I see no reason to let this article survive. Yanksox ^(talk) 06:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, There's really no good reason to delete this article. High school asserts notability by presence in notable location, size of school body, and community involvement in school founding. Alphachimp ^talk 06:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Where in the article is this notability asserted? --Coredesat 07:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • In the words "high school". CalJW 15:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Unless I've suddenly forgotten how to read... I don't think that's correct. - Motor (talk) 16:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Nominations of high schools by experienced editors should be treated as disruption to make a point. CalJW 15:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, on what grounds? - Motor (talk) 16:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment, This debate is very similar to another going on here. --Alphachimp ^talk 05:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete I concur that die was an interesting word of choice; after all, this isn't Wikipedia:Articles sentenced to death (although perhaps it should be). I will however, copy what I said in regards to another high school for deletion.

• It is not true that all high schools are notable. Stuyvesant High School is notable for its nationally (and dare I say internationally?) acclaimed educational programs, the impact of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the school (due to its proximity to the World Trade Center), and its numerous well-known alumni. Kofi Annan spoke at the school's 2004 graduation and many of the students reflections of 9|11 were featured in a November 2001 issue of The New York Times. With an average SAT score of over 1400 (from the old 1600), Stuyvesant offers eleven foreign languages and math and science courses that rival some colleges. Now, for Frisco Centennial High School? Well... it's... uh... in Frisco... and.. uh... it has a website. Nothing special.

• That's my position and I'm sticking to it. joturner 06:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Joturner; not all high schools are notable. Carlossuarez46 06:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Yanksox; being one of the newest schools in Texas, the 2nd one in Frsico and having a Titan as a mascot appear to fall rather short of establishing the importance of this school to anyone outwith the immediate area. When there's a Friscopedia, this will be just the sort of thing they want. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nn school. Wikibout-Talk to me! 15:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - another school which is too new to claim notabilty --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 19:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, secondary level educational institutions and above are inherently notable. Yamaguchi先生 22:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Silensor and others above. --Myles Long 22:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per BryanG's reason #1... It's good to see someone actually advance a reason why this should be retained.--Isotope23 12:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
• no vote Just noting that I have observed this AFD Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  Is this some type of new Wiki-graffiti I don't know about? "Hipocrite was here."  ;-) Silensor 20:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  No. I have voted keep on every school I have come across prior. I chose not to do so here. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  I'm opining Keep and Hipocrite is abstaining? I welcome you all to the Twilight Zone...--Isotope23 13:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per BryanG's comments. I see no point in deleting highschool articles at all. If Wikipedia hs room to archive all the infinite discussions with anon trolls, I don't see why it wouldn't have room for schools. This page does not act as a self-promotion or as personal webspace - it serves no harm.--Konstable 03:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, most schools are notable. bbx 06:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. There is no policy that says most schools are notable. Why does this wiki need to try and duplicate a site that will probably always do a better job on schools? If a notabillty criteria is a new school being at capacity in three years, we really need to think about what we are doing here. That is clearly not in any way notable. The norm in other areas of the country is to be a capacity, or higher, in a year or two. Vegaswikian 23:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep seems sufficently notable. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.