Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dave Meltzer

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 00:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dave Meltzer

Publisher of some garage wrestling newsletter, WP:BIO inclusion is doubtful. Wrestling cruft. karmafist 04:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Meltzer's almost as legendary in the pro wrestling community as the wrestlers themselves. -- Grev 05:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable amongst the wrestling community and possibly meets WP:BIO as the author of a periodical, but I cannot find the circulation numbers for Wrestling Observer. Movementarian 12:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep has published books, such as Tributes and the recent Tributes II. Lots of media appearances. While I'm not sure what the readership numbers are for the Observer, it's definitely sizable: it's no xeroxed fanzine, and it's been going for more than 20 years. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. He is, quite simply, internationally known as the world's foremost authority on professional wrestling, a multibillion-dollar industry. You would be hard pressed to find a piece of serious journalism about professional wrestling that does not use Dave Meltzer as a source. This is not even to mention he meets several of the criteria on WP:BIO, including being a widely recognized opinion maker, publishing widely circulated books and periodicals, having 62,800 Google hits, and even having a large fan base or cult following. --Masterofzen 16:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - Certainly notable enough to warrant a page - Wezzo 20:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'm curious, can you put everything in up there into WP:V? When reading that article, it was hard to discern everything all of you just said, that's the key there for that article -- notablity is recognized by someone who knows nothing about the subject. Also, some more questions.
• Who publishes the magazine and the books? Is it a vanity press?
• He's known as the foremost authority on wrestling according to who? What has made him into the foremost authority? What signifies this other than a few books and magazines?
• How big is the cult following? Where can I find examples of it?

Ultimately, I think we're more into vetting mode than deletion mode now. When I saw that article, I couldn't help but think "Who is this guy?" You all know him, so please save me and others who don't know about him the trouble and let us know who he is and why that matters, while following WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, etc. karmafist 20:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I've got to out myself here as a wrestling fan, obviously -- everything I said above was off the top of my head, as I didn't think the same exacting standards applied to a discussion like this as would apply if I were actually editing the article. (I am not, by the way, particularly a fan of Meltzer, but everybody who's plugged into the wrestling world knows at least a fair amount about him.) Anyway, let me elaborate and see what I can dig up right now.

• Meltzer's newsletter is self-published and exact circulation figures aren't available, but this message board [1] puts it at anywhere from 6,500 to 7,500 -- which falls well above the minimum-circulation guideline -- and says Meltzer makes more than $200,000 a year from it. Indeed, I've heard it's been his full-time job since 1988. Meanwhile, his latest book [2] was published by Sports Publishing, whose website [3] reveals it has also published autobiographies by Jerry Tarkanian, Dennis Rodman and Mike Ditka.
• Meltzer is often referred to as something like "the world's foremost authority on professional wrestling," often by respected media sources. I base my estimation -- which, again, I would not put in the article itself, as nobody can really say who's the world's foremost anything -- on the simple fact that he is the individual most quoted by the media about wrestling. (This is largely because World Wrestling Entertainment, which has a virtual monopoly on big-time wrestling in the U.S., maintains tight media control.) A Google News search for "Dave Meltzer" sorted by date [4] reveals dozens of quotes from Meltzer in non-wrestling media in December 2005 alone. Something I thought was very telling was a Google Books search for Meltzer's name [5]. On the first results page alone, there are mentions of Meltzer in no fewer than four wrestler autobiographies published by WWE. Considering that WWE as a company has a very negative attitude toward journalists like Meltzer who are critical toward them, this is a very big accomplishment. WWE doesn't publish many autobiographies, either, so Meltzer -- who has never been employed by WWE or any other wrestling organization -- appearing in four of them is a somewhat staggering number.
• A "cult following" is hard to nail down, but nearly every person on the Internet who reviews wrestling matches -- some of whom have, with some success, published their own books [6] -- consciously borrows from Meltzer, the man who essentially invented reviewing wrestling matches. You can't really find a wrestling message board in which Meltzer's name isn't lovingly bandied about, usually stated simply as "Meltzer" or even just "Dave." [7] I've personally heard people tell me about trading copies of Meltzer's newsletter with others, but I can't seem to verify that with any online sources. --Masterofzen 22:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way, from that aforementioned Google Books search, here's a great quote about Meltzer's significance that would be a fine addition to the article. It's from the New York Times No. 1 bestselling autobiography of Mick Foley, the former WWF world champion:

I was at Brian Hildebrand’s in the early summer of ’88, when I saw him reading a strange publication called the Wrestling Observer. I had heard about these “dirtsheets” (inside newsletters) that “exposed” wrestling to its readers, but had never actually seen one. At the time, these sheets were probably read by fewer than a thousand people, but nonetheless carried a lot of weight in the business. Men as important as Bill Watts were known to change the company’s direction if the sheets didn’t like what was going on, while many others swore they’d kill the guy who wrote it if they ever found him. In 1990, the guy, Dave Meltzer, introduced himself to be in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I was shocked that he actually appeared in public. I thought he was like Salman Rushdie of The Satanic Verses fame.

“Hey, Brian,” I said, “could I take a look at that thing when you’re done?”

“Sure,” he replied, “you’re in it.”

“I am?” I asked in disbelief. “For what?” Before he could answer, I changed my mind. “Never mind, I’ll read it myself.” When Brian handed me the sheet, I took it to a place where I could concentrate, and it was there, on the bowl of the Hildebrand house in Pittsburgh while squeezing out a solid Snow, that I read the biggest compliment of my young career. “Cactus Jack, who many consider to be the best no-name independent in the country.”

I couldn’t believe it—as much as the Observer was maligned by people in the business, a wrestler getting a favorable write-up was like an actor getting a good review in the New York Times. Whether it was coincidence or not, I’ll never know, but interest in Cactus Jack picked up immediately. --Masterofzen 22:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Extremely Strong Keep Dave Meltzer is the Roger Ebert of professional wrestling. If a nobody like White Dawg can have a page, then why can't he? --Kitch 12:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Extremely Strong Keep Dave has an influence on the way wrestling is portrayed to the average fan today. The rise of the internet and along with it the breakdown of kayfabe all helped tear down the wall of "hiding the fake." The knowledge of this type of lingo and news was often brought forth to the fans by Meltzer in the early days.

Here is some further info from sportsbyline.com which is a sports-talk radio network "heard on nearly 200 radio stations and by 2.2 million listeners per week" (http://www.sportsbyline.com/history.htm) on which Dave hosts a weekly wrestling show on Sunday's.

The show, which was the most listened to internet-generated talk show from late 1999 through 2001, moved to radio in March of 2002 and is the place where the most serious wrestling fans in the world talk about the unique sports entertainment form and its incredible popularity. Meltzer is considered the pioneer of pro wrestling journalism. A lifelong fan, Meltzer began writing about wrestling at the age of ten in various newsletters and fan club publications. While attending San Jose State University and reporting for the Oakland Tribune, Meltzer started the Wrestling Observer Newsletter in 1982. It was the first publication that covered pro wrestling that made no excuses about the industry being entertainment as opposed to sport, including coining the term "athletic entertainment" to describe pro wrestling, a term later changed to "sports entertainment" by Vince McMahon. The Observer remains the publication of record within the pro wrestling industry, read by nearly every serious fan and student of the game around the world.

Meltzer is joined every Sunday night by Alvarez, an independent pro wrestler who puts out the newsletter Figure Four Weekly, the most hilarious weekly look at pro wrestling around the world. In recent polls, the Observer and Figure Four were rated as the two most popular pro wrestling weekly publications in the world.Meltzer is considered the leading independent expert on pro wrestling, and has been featured in Sports Illustrated and on Entertainment Tonight. His book, "Tributes," was the best selling pro wrestling book in late 2001 and early 2002. He's been on every major network newscast as well as the Phil Donahue Show, numerous specials on pro wrestling from A&E, Court TV and the Discovery Channel, quoted in publications such as TV Guide, Rolling Stone, New York Times and Newsweek and appeared in the two leading documentaries on wrestling, Wrestling with Shadows and Beyond the Mat. Alvarez adds tremendous insight to the show as well as humor, making the two hours fly by every Sunday night. (http://www.sportsbyline.com/bios/meltzer.htm) Jazzy joe 15:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Keep I've seen Meltzer on Fox News and other television outlets, he has appeared on a series of wrestling DVD's as a commentator and has written two books on the subject of wrestling, which I have actually used as a reference for articles. --Darren Jowalsen 02:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per above. -- JJay 20:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Whoever is trying to consider this for deletion is either joking, bitter, or Hulk Hogan. -- MHeck 22:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Five Star Keep What in the hell? Why on earth would you want to delete Meltzer's page? He's a fantastic man and he's confirmed it! Whatever he says is true. I think whoever deleting this is gay.- Bukkake Theme Park 00:04, 17 December 2005 (GMT)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.