Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cranbury School

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 19:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cranbury School

Non-notable stub article with little verifiable information D. G. 00:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC) In the interests of disclosure, as suggested by AFD guidelines, you should know that WhisperToMe is the creator of the article and primary contributor. D. G. 17:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Note 1: See details added to the article regarding recognition by the Blue Ribbon Schools Program for the 1996-97 school year. I think this would address the issue re notability, and would seem to justify a Speedy Keep. Alansohn 19:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

There are over three thousand schools that have blue ribbon awards. It is not that unique as to create notability. Must we have an article for every single one of those 3000 schools that ever was given a blue ribbon award? D. G. 22:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Note 2: We deserve proper disclosure by DG that he has apparently been involved in an ongoing personal battle with WhisperToMe regarding other, related articles. I would expect to see WhisperToMe or any other creator of an article defending their work. It's entirely unjustified to see someone with an axe to grind create an AfD and blame the creator for "bad faith". Let's see full disclosure from the nominator. Alansohn 18:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The disclosures disclosed by Alansohn are correct, but that's beside the point. D. G. 22:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - A stub can always be expanded. The information about the board of education is easily verifiable (just check the Cranbury School website), as is the other content of the article. Also, this is a school district, not just any ordinary school. School district articles should be inherently kept. WhisperToMe 00:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

A good stub can be expanded. This stub isn't really expandable. There is not really any information beyond the basic statistics, ie, how many students, who are the administrators, on the official website. It's a small 600 student elementary school in a rural town. D. G. 00:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It is possible to expand it - If one finds the history of the school (when it was established, if any major additions or overhauls were made), that would make a good addition. If the district served other municipalities and they broke away, that would be a good addition too. WhisperToMe 00:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

But no such history exists and you are being disingenous. You can claim all day that just about any article could be expanded to fill a fifty page article, in theory. But in practice, you and I know that it is certainly not possible and you are certainly not going to contribute to make more than a stub with a phone number directory. This is just another vanity school article, except with a stranger origin: namely, your violation of WP:POINT D. G. 00:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I created this article because I wanted to get rid of the school-related category at Cranbury Township, not because of the PHS disputes. WhisperToMe 01:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, look what I found: http://www.cranbury.org/history/schools.htm - More material to supplement this article! WhisperToMe 02:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete non-notable --Xrblsnggt 02:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep - The nomination makes to claims re notability and verifiability. In response, 1) School has been recognized by the Blue Ribbon Schools Program for the 1996-97 school year, which should address issue of notability. Schools and school districts are notable. This article is just as notable as any of the 300+ school districts listed in Category:School districts in New Jersey, and the nominator provides no objective criteria that the article does not meet. 2) Every bit of information was verified and is verifiable using the sources provided. Given the fact that the reason for deletion are unsupported there seems to be no reason to justify deletion. If I read the contributions by User:DG correctly, it seems that this AfD may be in bad faith. Edits made by this user to Cranbury Township, New Jersey removing a link to Cranbury School and presupposing a successful AfD demonstrate that this AfD is at best quite questionable. Alansohn 02:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it was the creation of this article in the first place which was done very much in bad faith, if you'll read the record. D. G. 02:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

DG's statement claiming that this article was created in bad faith demonstrates that this AfD was part of some petty personal battle and not a good faith effort to identify irreedambly bad articles. I'd suggest that we get a better explanation of why this is not bad faith. Alansohn 18:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Just another elem/middle school. Nothing interesting, noteworthy or exceptional. Mere existence is not a criterion for inclusion in an encyclopedia. "All Schools are Encyclopedic" is like saying "All People are Encyclopedic" -- GWO
• Delete as above. "All schools are notable" is a cop-out when articles like this prove the statement false. doktorb _words^deeds 10:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Which "statements"? And there is no parent district to merge in. This is a school district and a local government. Your statement fails because Texline, Texas is as notable as Cranbury School (a small Texas town) - this argument means that schools either get kept or merged into parent district articles. In the case of this school, there is no parent district. WhisperToMe 15:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • And, folks, I found even MORE data at http://www.cranburytownship.org/town_hall.html - I'm going to add all of this to the article. WhisperToMe 15:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • In fact, there is a consolidation history to this too. There were schools that closed, and those schools did feed into Cranbury School. WhisperToMe 15:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • And the old Cranbury School building is on the National Historic Sites list http://www.cranburytownship.org/town_hall.html - And the old building has an art gallery in it. Are you guys sure this isn't notable? WhisperToMe 15:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • It's also listed at http://www.state.nj.us/dep/hpo/1identify/lists/middlesex.pdf WhisperToMe 15:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: The article has changed since Doktorbuk's vote. WhisperToMe 16:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, WTM. I suggest that the information be merged into the Cranbury Township page. There is certainly a place to merge in to. D. G. 17:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• • That would have been more feasible if Cranbury School served grades K through 12. But, it's K-8, and restoring the category to the Cranbury page would be misleading - The District Factor Group category applies to school systems, not the actual municipality. The Cranbury School is New Jersey District Factor Group J - Princeton Regional Schools (which serves high school students in Cranbury) is New Jersey District Factor Group I. Therefore two factor group categories apply to Cranbury's student body. As for listing both, the problem is that Cranbury doesn't have its own high school - it sends its kids to someone else's school district, which is listed anyway as Factor Group I. A school district is as much of a local government as a city, borough, etc. itself - Local government articles are notable. WhisperToMe 17:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • In fact, the trend now is to try to merge into the school district - When Clear Creek High School was up for deletion, at first merging into League City, Texas was considered, but later someone pointed out that it should actually be merged into Clear Creek ISD, since CCISD is the parent school district. CCHS was kept, but I'm showing the idea here. WhisperToMe 18:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep in this case because the school has a long history and the page is well-developed. But I wouldn't have an issue with a merge into a page on district schools. — RJH (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Cranbury School is the school district. The school district is literally made up of one school. If Cranbury school was part of a larger school district, I wouldn't have a problem with a merge. WhisperToMe 18:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
• keep please the school and district have a long history and are notable too Yuckfoo 06:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment if the content from the websites above are included in this article, then surely the content may break copyright policy? I maintain my delete vote based on my long-held view that the "all schools are notable" opunion is nonsense. doktorb _words^deeds 08:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of information from varied sources, with references, is what Wikipedia is all about. If you have a concern re copyvio issues, provide references, other than that your argument is baseless. The question is not if all schools are notable (which you are entitled to argue), the question is if this one is not. See the article as it currently exists and justify your claim that there is no evidence of notability. Alansohn 11:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep (Change from delete) - some latest revelation of information makes me feel the article should stay for now. (including more info about the award and that it is a school district itself) --WinHunter ^(talk) 01:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

  Delete - no assertion of notability in the article. It currently is "just another public school", long history does not mean it's notable. --WinHunter ^(talk) 11:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

See details in article regarding recognition by the Blue Ribbon Schools Program for the 1996-97 school year. I think this would be an "assertion of notability" per your comment. Alansohn 11:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

But it seems to me that the blue ribbon award is rather easy to obtain and so many other schools have obtained this award also. For 2005 alone:

Total # of Nominated Schools Selected as NCLB-BRS: 296
Percentage of Nominated Schools Selected as NCLB-BRS: 82%

That means there are thousands of schools obtained this award over the years? If so I don't see how notable it is to obtain such award--WinHunter ^(talk) 16:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Think of it this way - at the least, there are hundreds of thousands of schools in the United States alone. A few thousand out of hundreds of thousands is not much. WhisperToMe 16:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The Cranbury School article is a carefully researched, thoroughly documented article that provides all sources regarding its backgound and claim to notability. Of the 105,000+ K-12 public and private schools in the U.S. (see the American School Directory for further details), under 3/10 of 1% of schools (based on your unsourced numbers) felt that they were willing to go through the rigorous selection proces to be recognized by the Blue Ribbon Schools Program. The article on the program describes in depth the rigor of the selection process. You provide no source for your claim (or for your statistics) other than your personal feeling that the award is "rather easy to obtain." Again, the article makes an explicit assertion of notability, contrary to your claim. You need to provide a better justification for deletion, and providing objective criteria that the article fails to meet would be a start. Alansohn 17:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

My bad for forgetting to quote the source, it was from this pdf from ed.gov and the figure is for the award in 2005 only (the program has been running for 24 years by now?). Also, if most schools feel this is a rigid process (and unwilling to apply/nominate) then it means that the award is not even recognized from within the education sector? Btw, my feelings that it is "rather easy to obtain" is from the high number of successful selected schools (82%) of whose schools who are willing to go through this "rigid process". --WinHunter ^(talk) 18:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"Also, if most schools feel this is a rigid process (and unwilling to apply/nominate) then it means that the award is not even recognized from within the education sector?" - Not necessairly - Not all students in school choose to take Advanced Placement tests, but AP tests are recognized by universities. Is this a good analogy? WhisperToMe 18:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Being able to read an article about their own school gets people intersted in Wikipedia. Ramseystreet 12:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep. I am no longer so certain this article should be deleted. I don't know if it's possible for me to change my vote seeing as I originally nominated the article for deletion, but if it is, I am voting keep and hope it is kept. WhisperToMe and Alansohn have more than addressed any concerns about verifiability and turned the article into something which could really grow. I feel guilt and regret for having nominated this page for deletion-- partly out of genuine belief that the school was not notable enough for a Wikipedia article (a concern that I don't feel is totally addressed still)-- but mostly for petty and unwholesome reasons. I may disagree with WhisperToMe on other unrelated issues but his model behaviour on this article-- not just sitting around arguing, but actually showing not telling by improving the article-- has shamed and inspired me. I'm sorry I nominated this article for deletion. Congratulations on bringing it up to shape. D. G. 19:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If you like you can withdraw the nomination. --WinHunter ^(talk) 01:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy keep. The nominator has withdrawn and the school was established in the 1850s, later added as a New Jersey State Historic Site. Any issues with verifiability have been resolved. Silensor 20:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.