Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bums

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE and restore REDIRECT. Rje 00:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bums

(I prodded this, but the label was removed, so to AFD with it.) This "sport" is probably nonsensical; the only references to it are the author of the article spamming mentions of it in other pages. As for "traditionally played at University College, Durham", they managed to convert Palace Green into "Bums Pitches" without my noticing for several years... Shimgray | talk | 13:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete with fire - Unreferenced patent nonsense. Syrthiss 13:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to "bum". — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 13:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, then recreate (and protect if necessary) as original redirect to Bum. Perfect example of Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. -- Fan-1967 13:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - no sources provided, and not something that's come to my attention in my 8 years in Durham. TSP 14:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete — it's a fabrication. 10 years as a member of University College, and I've never seen it before. (So maybe it's original research instead, in which case, delete it.) Strib 14:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete As Cruft. Thε Halo Θ 15:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect (after deletion of original material) to bum. -- Scientizzle 17:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I played it at Eton and Castle (Univeristy College) and its a proper game played mostly in the summer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.24.163.238 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-05T01:21:11 (UTC)
  • Some university students are mis-using Wikipedia as a free wiki host for documenting their private game. The article is both original research, being documentation of something that has never before been documented, and (as per the above) unverifiable. Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. Revert to the redirect. Uncle G 11:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Revert to original redirect. Or delete, or redirect to bollocks. Also review the edit history of User:Brittle bones and User:195.97.248.74 who have common interests. -- Solipsist 08:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • We have similar interests because User:195.97.248.74 is me when I forget to log-in. Nice work Sherlock... re. redirect to bollocks... great trash talk old chap, I won't stoop. --Brittle bones 13:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Such a game is a well-known football-variation often played in england, as well as other european countries, when there are too few players to create a viable competitive game. Other such games could include "headers and volleys" or "Wembley doubles". This game is refered to in many ways (most commonly, "one bounce, one touch") and has a variety of permutations. The origin is likely to be very difficult to determine, although it is doubtful that it was Eton, an inclusion in this article designed to suggest credibility. The game depicted in this article is merely a variation played by members of University College AFC since 2006, and thus the article refers to members of University who wish to immortalise themselves in wikipedia. (PS - if you look at the photograph carefully you will see that they are wearing modern trainer-shoes, as well as the VW polo in the background)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.64.137.79 (talk • contribs) .
    • If it is well-known, you should be able to cite sources to demonstrate that. Please cite sources. Uncle G 11:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not familiar with the deletion policy on Wikipedia, but this game is not made up. It's a bit of harmless fun, commonly played by public school type boys in the UK. The mention of Durham University does not surprise me as it is notoriously associated with these people. While you might argue that it's moronic (I couldn't possibly comment), the article is definitely not a fabrication, and not an attempt to immortalise a very small band of friends. It would therefore be unreasonable to delete it, methinks. One might even say that retaining it may strike an egalitarian, horizon-widening blow against eliism by helping normal people cut the the dense and confusing games, language and traditions of private schools and prestigious universities.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.129 (talk • contribs) .
    • Please read our Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines and base your arguments upon them. Several of the relevant policies are hyperlinked to in the preceding discussion. Uncle G 11:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • i went to eton and played bums, good spot of character building. you people take life too seriously, frankly i nearly popped out of my plus fours when i read that some chaps dont beleive the game to have originated in the college of our lady. Did they go to the school? If not then how would they know that it was an inclusion to give the game "credibility"? Absolute tosh, bloody good game though. I have spread the "joga bonito" to UCL of Gower Street in London. So that proles can be put in their place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.6.110.20 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-06 22:32:06 (UTC)
  • As a member of University College I can confirm Bums has been ongoing for AT THE VERY LEAST the three years I have been a member of the JCR there. Furthermore, when I joined the College I was made aware of the game and what I understood to be a strong tradition very early on in my residence - the game must have been around for some considerable time before I started.

    I have also played the game with various public school boys - at least one from Eton - who have confirmed the existance of the game within their schools before commencing University. To suggest this is a gimmick to "create a tradition and credibility" is both shallow and naive.

    Each year Bums is played nightly (games usually start around 5-6pm) in Easter term on Palace Green - the central geen by Durham Castle and the Cathedral. Participants include a wide variety of University scholars - not just a group of friends. Indeed there have often been occaisons when three seperate games of Bums between three seperate groups with no relation have been playing at the same time and even emalgamated to create one big game.

    Over the three years there have been various calls for a "bums constitution" outlining and consolidating the rules. This article does this well and thus should not be subject to any deletion. Those who beleive deletion should be appropriated are the few who refuse to accept the emergance of new traditions, clinging desperately to that of the past and refusing to embrace change. Bums embraces this change brilliantly, not only allowing new tradition to be created but also reflects the climate of the age we live in when receiving a good "bumming" can be talked about in open and laughed at in jovial spirit in and around a diverse cross section of society.

    Please hold deletion as I am currently searching for viable sources. I have travelled in South America and China teaching English as a Foreign Language and have come across many variations of this game (including "keepy-ups", "one touch, one bounce" and "fondo-crudo"), which seems to be a popular alternative to football worldwide. I think a page should be created on Wikipedia in order to cover these types of games in which bums could be included (although a page exists for "keepie-uppie" I feel it is not as comprehensive and well written as the Bums article (or as it could be, with some editing) and perhaps the articles could be merged in some way.)--195.97.248.74 09:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

  • It should also be noted that the current article on the universally popular game of keepie-uppies is badly referenced to a subjective personal website which holds no academic sway. However it is widely acknowledged that this game is played world wide by millions of people (in a similar manner to Bums). It seems to be true that with such 'word to mouth' inherited games there have been no authorities which have suitably documented participation in such sports and as such it is difficult for authors to provide viable sources. Any suggestions on how this can best be achieved would be useful --195.97.248.74 09:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • On the contrary, there are plenty of books and journal articles on childrens games, this having been the subject of research for centuries. If the claim that this is a real game that has become a part of the general corpus of human knowledge is true, it should be easy to cite sources.

      Yes, keepie uppie is currently a bad article that cites no reliable sources. But that's irrelevant to the discussion of this article. Uncle G 11:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

      • Uncle G, my point was that this is a page on a similar, universally well known game for which no suitable sources have been able to be discovered and which, as a sport played at some point by almost anybody who has owned a football, has as much right to be represented on wikipedia as bums. I simply made reference to the said artice in the manner of a case lawyer providing approved examples in order to help decide matters concerning a current case. For example if I were to produce a low quality line darwing of someone getting bummed and place it on a geocities website, would the article on Bums become 'academically sound'?

        Could this article not be reclassified as a stub until a reference can be found?--Brittle bones 13:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

        • The argument that "the existence of article A justifies the existence of article B" does not hold water. The argument to justify the existence of this article, and to counter the argument that it is unverifiable and original research, comprises cited sources. None have been cited. No other argument will work. Please cite sources. Uncle G 14:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
          • "Keepie-uppie" is now cited from the BBC and the Scotsman, among others. Readers are invited to find articles on "Bums" in such sources... Shimgray | talk | 16:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

A reference to the game 'BUMS' can be found on this page, about half way down.

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:UOoV0cpZQYIJ:www.football365.co.uk/opinion/mailbox/story_180617.shtml+More+Misty+Water-Coloured+Memories...+bums+football&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1

I too was at Eton College, where 'Bums' was widespread and played in the evenings every summer. It dates back at the very least 12 years, but I imagine was an institution much earlier than that. I am likewise a current member of University College JCR at Durham, and can confidently say that this (albeit low-key) sporting tradition continues each summer on Palace Green. Being as yet an obscure activity, online references may well be hard to find (but please note the reference on the above link) - I urge whomever it may concern to have patience in this matter.

  • Vigilant deleters, please note that heads and volleys mentions the bums out rule, but doesn't have any references. I doubt this rule does or ever has existed. I would also like to know how to flag articles lacking citation as I have spotted a number myself, mainly being related to the minutae of various Online Role Playing Games created or contributed to by the critics of our illustrious folk-ledgend/sport.
  • Delete, then recreate (and protect if necessary) as original redirect to Bum, per nom and User:Fan-1967. --Mais oui! 10:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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